I found this video on YT and found it interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXa6zzh ... LL&index=3
It certainly puts things in a different perspective on how quickly Lizzie could have cleaned up and changed clothes the day of the murder, for me, at least.
Women's clothing in the Victorian Era
Moderator: Adminlizzieborden
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mysterium
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camgarsky4
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Re: Women's clothing in the Victorian Era
Interesting video, thanks for sharing. I can't imagine how annoying all that clothes changing would have been.
Couple of thoughts related to the Borden case……
1) There are a number of theories that suggest the killer (lizzie or someone else) wore a ‘cover’ to avoid blood splatter. Possibilities for Lizzie range from the Prince Albert coat to a gossamer to an apron. There is also very little indication that the blood splatter exceeded droplets and sprays.
Point of this is that Lizzie didn't need to change out of her outfit before everyone showed up post-killings.
2) Around noon on August 4th, Lizzie changed out of her morning dress and, in a seemingly short amount of time, into a pink wrapper. The testimony below describes what Bowen and Alice saw on this event. Cobbling together various testimonies including the below and testimony from Buck, Fleet, etc., this changeout may have only taken a few minutes. To some of us, the errand that Lizzie sent Alice on (telling Bowen which mortician to hire) seems somewhat contrived and perhaps a reason to create some privacy to change her outfit. Why did Lizzie feel she needed to change out of a dress and into an 'informal' outfit like a wrapper? Victorian outfit sensitivities would suggest that she would have changed into something more formal with all the men in her house. Something to think about.
Pasted below is the related trial testimony of Alice Russell and Dr. Bowen describing the same event when Lizzie changed out of her dress and into a pink wrapper. The setting was roughly noon, after Lizzie and Alice had gone up to Lizzie’s bedroom to give Lizzie the opportunity to compose herself and have some privacy from the drama downstairs. This changing of clothing occurred before any of the police came up to talk to Lizzie, so estimate the change happened sometime around noon.
Alice Russell Trial Testimony pgs. 383-384
Q. Were you in the room with her at any time upstairs before a change of dress?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was anyone else there besides you and Miss Borden at that time?
A. No, sir.
Q. Now was there some conversation there in consequence of which you left the room?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Will you state what that conversation was?
A. She said, "When it is necessary for an undertaker I want Winwood."
Q. What did you do?
A. I went down stairs and waited in the hall to see Dr. Bowen.
Q. And did you see him?
A. After waiting some time, I sent for him. He didn't come through there, and I sent for
him and he came.
Q. After you had an interview with him where did you go?
A. Upstairs again.
Q. Did you go to her room?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did you see when you went to the room?
A. She was coming out of Miss Emma's room, tying the ribbons of a wrapper.
Q. What sort of wrapper was it?
A. Pink and white stripe, I think.
Q. Was it a tight or loose wrapper, perhaps wrappers are always loose?
A. I couldn't tell you.
Dr. Bowen Trial Testimony Pg. 310
Q. Doctor, did you at any time in the course of the morning notice anything with reference to the dress that Miss Borden had on?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Will you describe it as well as you can?
A. The only time I noticed anything was when she changed it after she went up to her room. I noticed she had on a different dress when she went to her room.
Q. What did you notice in reference to that dress?
A. I noticed the color of it.
Q. What was it?
A. A pink wrapper, morning dress.
Couple of thoughts related to the Borden case……
1) There are a number of theories that suggest the killer (lizzie or someone else) wore a ‘cover’ to avoid blood splatter. Possibilities for Lizzie range from the Prince Albert coat to a gossamer to an apron. There is also very little indication that the blood splatter exceeded droplets and sprays.
Point of this is that Lizzie didn't need to change out of her outfit before everyone showed up post-killings.
2) Around noon on August 4th, Lizzie changed out of her morning dress and, in a seemingly short amount of time, into a pink wrapper. The testimony below describes what Bowen and Alice saw on this event. Cobbling together various testimonies including the below and testimony from Buck, Fleet, etc., this changeout may have only taken a few minutes. To some of us, the errand that Lizzie sent Alice on (telling Bowen which mortician to hire) seems somewhat contrived and perhaps a reason to create some privacy to change her outfit. Why did Lizzie feel she needed to change out of a dress and into an 'informal' outfit like a wrapper? Victorian outfit sensitivities would suggest that she would have changed into something more formal with all the men in her house. Something to think about.
Pasted below is the related trial testimony of Alice Russell and Dr. Bowen describing the same event when Lizzie changed out of her dress and into a pink wrapper. The setting was roughly noon, after Lizzie and Alice had gone up to Lizzie’s bedroom to give Lizzie the opportunity to compose herself and have some privacy from the drama downstairs. This changing of clothing occurred before any of the police came up to talk to Lizzie, so estimate the change happened sometime around noon.
Alice Russell Trial Testimony pgs. 383-384
Q. Were you in the room with her at any time upstairs before a change of dress?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was anyone else there besides you and Miss Borden at that time?
A. No, sir.
Q. Now was there some conversation there in consequence of which you left the room?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Will you state what that conversation was?
A. She said, "When it is necessary for an undertaker I want Winwood."
Q. What did you do?
A. I went down stairs and waited in the hall to see Dr. Bowen.
Q. And did you see him?
A. After waiting some time, I sent for him. He didn't come through there, and I sent for
him and he came.
Q. After you had an interview with him where did you go?
A. Upstairs again.
Q. Did you go to her room?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did you see when you went to the room?
A. She was coming out of Miss Emma's room, tying the ribbons of a wrapper.
Q. What sort of wrapper was it?
A. Pink and white stripe, I think.
Q. Was it a tight or loose wrapper, perhaps wrappers are always loose?
A. I couldn't tell you.
Dr. Bowen Trial Testimony Pg. 310
Q. Doctor, did you at any time in the course of the morning notice anything with reference to the dress that Miss Borden had on?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Will you describe it as well as you can?
A. The only time I noticed anything was when she changed it after she went up to her room. I noticed she had on a different dress when she went to her room.
Q. What did you notice in reference to that dress?
A. I noticed the color of it.
Q. What was it?
A. A pink wrapper, morning dress.
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Ida
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Re: Women's clothing in the Victorian Era
Yes, I agree - it seems a wrapper is like a sort of robe?
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Catbooks
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Re: Women's clothing in the Victorian Era
Ida, yes, it's along the lines of a dressing gown. Informal, not to be worn out of the house, or really to receive people in.
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Catbooks
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Re: Women's clothing in the Victorian Era
Camgarsky, I didn't remember Lizzie changed into the pink wrapper so soon after she'd "discovered" Andrew's body.
I don't know how many wrappers Lizzie owned, but it's interesting to note everyone remembered her pink wrapper, but no one seemed to remember very well the dress she had on that morning, or didn't remember it at all in some cases. Was that a deliberate choice on her part or was that the only wrapper she had?
As I recall Bridget remembered what Lizzie was wearing on Tuesday and Wednesday, but mysteriously couldn't remember what she wore the morning of the murders.
**I could understand Mrs Churchill, being shocked by the news and being first on the scene, not noticing**, but not Alice Russel. Miss Russel had some time to process the news, and more importantly, fussed with the waist (blouse) portion of her dress to loosen it. You'd think having done that, she'd have some memory of what the dress looked like.
**Correcting myself here. It was Mrs Churchill who recalled Lizzie's dress that morning as being light blue with a dark blue geometric "figure" (print). Same description Alice Russell gave of the dress Lizzie burned the following Sunday, which was also the dress Lizzie often wore in the morning, had been made for her that spring by the dressmaker and got paint on it shortly after it was made. Which Lizzie continued to wear anyway.
That's a good video, but the woman in it is getting dressed to go out to town. The dress Lizzie wore that morning wouldn't have required even half of all that to get dressed. Or undressed.
I don't know how many wrappers Lizzie owned, but it's interesting to note everyone remembered her pink wrapper, but no one seemed to remember very well the dress she had on that morning, or didn't remember it at all in some cases. Was that a deliberate choice on her part or was that the only wrapper she had?
As I recall Bridget remembered what Lizzie was wearing on Tuesday and Wednesday, but mysteriously couldn't remember what she wore the morning of the murders.
**I could understand Mrs Churchill, being shocked by the news and being first on the scene, not noticing**, but not Alice Russel. Miss Russel had some time to process the news, and more importantly, fussed with the waist (blouse) portion of her dress to loosen it. You'd think having done that, she'd have some memory of what the dress looked like.
**Correcting myself here. It was Mrs Churchill who recalled Lizzie's dress that morning as being light blue with a dark blue geometric "figure" (print). Same description Alice Russell gave of the dress Lizzie burned the following Sunday, which was also the dress Lizzie often wore in the morning, had been made for her that spring by the dressmaker and got paint on it shortly after it was made. Which Lizzie continued to wear anyway.
That's a good video, but the woman in it is getting dressed to go out to town. The dress Lizzie wore that morning wouldn't have required even half of all that to get dressed. Or undressed.