Just thoughts my family will not put up with over xmas

[camgarsky4]

Morse never mentioned a conductor badge number to the newspapers, police or under oath at the trial. It is another urban myth. There are a few threads on John Morse that will help inform your Morse theory.

I've always struggled with the concept that Morse's alibi is too detailed . His alibi was that he visited his niece at the Emery's home on Weybosset. This visit and the arrival and departure times were verified by Mrs. Emery and the niece. Also, their neighbor (Mrs. Horace Kingsley Fall River Dily Evening New, Aug 5) heard and saw Morse as arrived and left the Emery's. He walked to their home and then took public transport back to the Borden's. Based on the newspaper coverage, it is clear that visiting the post office was a daily routine for Morse, Andrew and probably most folks since that was the primary means of communicating outside of a direct conversation. Probably like us firing up our laptops and checking email every morning.

As reported in the FR Daily Evening News Aug 5, the conductor of the car, (Whitaker), was not found, but Conductor Kennedy saw the priests as his car passed going in the opposite direction. So apparently the priests made quite the impression on whomever saw them.

As a side note, in Pearson's book (published late 1920's), he quotes a city employee who saw Morse as he walked towards the Emery home that morning.

What about any of that is suspicious? Please know I'm not being contrary, its just that we've had this debate multiple times and I can never get my head around the POV that his alibi is suspicious. Doesn't mean he didn't participate in the crimes....

Setting aside Morse for a moment, what are your thoughts on the "note", Lizzie's evolving alibi, and the prussic acid testimonies?

[DanKatBan]

Hi Camgarsky4!

OOOOOOOOOOHHHH!!!! I have much to learn about John Morse! Good direction to go in! Thank you!!!!

My thoughts on the note are that it could be something Lizzie made up on the spot to keep Andrew from looking for Abby. And if so, then she's definitely an accomplice. There is always the chance that there was a real note and that Abby was planning to go out. She was wearing a fake braid and that's generally not something women do on days when they're planning to stay home. But I have to do some more research (always the answer since I think I'm very much at the beginning of this journey) into how women dressed and exactly what Abby was wearing when found.

As for Lizzie's disastrous testimony at the inquest, etc. I've had conversations with people on varying levels of morphine. Laudanum being a sort-of morphine-lite which I believe they gave her after finding Andrew's body and again before testifying. If that's true (and I have to double-check it) then the confusion, meandering, and self-conflicting testimony would actually make sense in that it would match up with the conversations I've had with other people on that particular drug.

The other idea I have on that is Lizzie was a full-grown adult human woman in a culture that was not going to accept a 32 year old unmarried woman keeping company (however innocently) with an unmarried man. One established pattern with our Lizzie is that she was an extrovert. She liked people and she liked her parties. But she would literally rather die than admit she had been in the barn doing something she should not have been doing. Although, given the unrumpled state she was in a few minutes later, I'm guessing holding hands would probably have been the most scandalous thing she did. For a church girl that would be enough to ruin her reputation and future prospects.

The prussic acid thing is just weird. Was that really how they cleaned coats back then? I highly doubt it. And it wasn't allowed in the actual trial. I think today they'd throw it out as prejudicial. Poison being very different than a violent method like a hatchet, it wouldn't necessarily apply. Thinking about killing someone is very different than actually doing it. She very well might have been hoping to poison her stepmother, heck, maybe everyone including Bridget - but they tested and found no poison in the food. So she didn't obtain any arsenic and didn't poison anybody. It doesn't clear her from suspicion, but it doesn't mean she consented to a hatchet murder, either.

Tangential thought: God forbid if one of my friends or family gets hatcheted under any circumstances in the next month or so. All I've been doing is looking up hatchet murders and how to sharpen hatchets, and how to best strike a target with a hatchet... EEEEEEEEEEEEK!

[camgarsky4]

If you are looking for a well organized, fact based presentation of the case, you might try William Spencer's book, Case Against Lizzie Borden. It is a very large book (as are almost all the Lizzie books), but he puts everything in chronological order, which helps with putting the book down and picking it back up a couple days later.

I'm sure you have already started, but reading the witness statements, inquest transcripts, preliminary hearing transcripts and the trial testimony are absolutely essential to attempting to keep track of consistency and any new information shared from legal event to legal event.

I found it helped to carefully study photographs of the exterior and interior of the Borden house and neighborhood. The Lizzie Borden Virtual Library website has a large gallery of images. Once you've gotten familiar with the photos, it really helps to visualize and understand the testimonies better.

Keep digging into the case, it is captivating. Always happy to provide feedback to any of your posts if it is welcome.
Happy New Year!

[DanKatBan]

Thank you!!!! I'm going to keep digging. At some point I hope to have an understanding of what happened, how it came to that, and if I'm very lucky why.

[WFordII]

I'm also eager to read more of your discoveries and thoughts! If you find out anything about the painting over the infamous AJB death sofa, please let us know.:)

[DanKatBan]

Hi WFordII,

This one? https://lizzieandrewborden.com/LBForum/ ... &mode=view

Found it in this forum - https://lizzieandrewborden.com/LBForum/ ... f=2&t=6449 about 2/3s of the way down the page.

[DanKatBan]

From the forum in case you're busy - The Print is "The Village Elms", by Albert Fitch Bellows. A copy of the painting that hung above the sofa when Andrew Borden was killed. It depicts a village scene in the village of Hadley Massachusetts. Hadley is a town just north of Springfield, Massachusetts and east of Northampton. In the painting, and way off to the right, you see a saltbox, which is an architectural colonial design... basically a modified two story colonial. In colonial times when they needed more room they extended the back of the two story colonial by extending the back roof and letting it sweep down, in some cases, five or six feet from the ground. (but most of the time eight to ten feet)

In the painting you can see the building supports a huge center chimney. These chimneys flared down to its base where they became very large and wide and supported a number of hearths and fireboxes. In old colonials these chimneys were used as part of the foundation where floor beams and rafters rested on and supported the entire building. The practice is no longer done.

[WFordII]

Thanks so much!!

[DanKatBan]

Huh. Regarding the note - I'm still finding my way through the trial testimony and stumbled on this from Mrs. Churchill:

Q. What did Bridget tell you about Mrs. Borden having a note?

A. She said Mrs. Borden had a note to go to see someone that was sick, and she was dusting the sitting room, and she hurried off, and says, "She didn't tell me where she was going; she generally does."

Q. That was what Bridget told you?

A. Yes sir.

Q. That was not what Lizzie told you?

A. No sir.

[camgarsky4]

Under oath, Bridget clearly and declaratively states she knew nothing of a note to Mrs. Borden beyond what lizzie told her. So either Bridget is lying or Mrs. Churchill misheard or misunderstood what was said.

When I read any of the testimony regarding what happened in the minutes after the murders were discovered, I try to keep in mind that all these folks were experiencing the most traumatic event of their lives. Remembering who was standing where, exactly when things occurred, or recalling the context and precision of hearsay would likely have been less than pristine.

[DanKatBan]

Hi Camgarsky4!
Bridget is a very interesting person. Her face-off with the defense lawyer while she was testifying, where she insisted she never said things that were clearly on record from the inquest makes me want to look more closely at her. I don't know what I think of her yet.

[camgarsky4]

You are taking a great approach to this case.....dive deep into the various characters and occurrences. Enjoy!

[DanKatBan]

Here's the raw video. Will put together something better to explain what I'm looking for. But you'll see pretty clearly, I didn't get a drop of jello or syrup on me. Not definitive by any means, but I thought it was interesting.
https://youtu.be/l9mjhgCVaEg

[DanKatBan]

Watermelon cuts
https://www.youtube.com/post/UgkxjzAKE2 ... mq9_hgg2-t
2-handed (angle \), Right-handed (slight angle \), Left-handed (angle /)

Andrew's skull, deepest cut highlighted in yellow
https://yt3.ggpht.com/AX9gXPUazOPddQUIZ ... ffff-nd-v1

[DanKatBan]

OK! From that not-terribly-scientific experiment -
1 - watermelon cuts, the left-handed cut comes closest to matching the angle of the deepest cut on Andrew's skull
2 - there was very little jello or syrup spatter. And none of it got on me. A little got on the chair.

Make of that what you will. LIke I said, not definitive, but another data point to add to the pool.

[camgarsky4]

Thanks for update and sharing the videos.

Your blood splatter findings match up with the sparse number of blood spots found on the parlor and dining room doors and door frames.

[Shani1968]

From what I've read about Abby's attack, were the crime scene photos "cleaned" up a bit? Was she in worse shape when initially found? Reading from a part of the testimony her back and a leg were bare when she was discovered. I wonder if it was the same for Mr. Borden, now looking at the photos their bodies looked staged. Creepy!!! I've also heard there are archived photos with the Fall River police, not seen by the public. True?

[camgarsky4]

First I've heard that the police still have photos they haven't shared. Doesn't mean they don't exist, but not sure what authority or reason would result with them holding back photographs for over 100 years and many administrations.

My understanding is that victorian age modesty likely led to Abby's clothing to be rearranged and doctors, police, etc. touched the bodies, so some movement did occur. That AJB has on a pair of shoes, but police testimony states he didn't have shoes on when found might indicate some changes were made or could also mean the policeman in question had a flawed recollection.

[Marchesk]

If it's just some random psycho off a passing train (a real theory I read somewhere) then all four of the people in the house (Abby, Andrew, Lizzie, and Bridget) get hacked.

Probably The Man From The Train by Bill James and his daughter. It's based on a theory that a serial killer was riding trains around America in the early 20th century, and killing families in their sleep. Villasca being the most famous example, but there were other similar crimes. They identify a compelling suspect in the book who was wanted for the murder of a family in West Brookfield, Mass in 1898 with an axe, but evaded police by train. There were interesting similarities with the Villasca murders 14 years later.

However, I agree that a serial killer doesn't fit the Borden murders because Lizzie and Bridget were unharmed, and there was opportunity to kill both. It also makes little sense for someone to gain access to the house to commit random murders during the day on a busy street in town.

[camgarsky4]

Hi!

Pretty much repeating what you and the others have already said, but if the random intruder killed Abby and then AJB 1-1 1/2 hrs. later, then the killer was alone in the house with Lizzie for all that time. Lizzie didn't leave for the barn until the last 15ish minutes after Abby was killed. So random killer and Lizzie were all alone in that house for roughly an hour, and yet, Lizzie survived.

Since cellar door and front doors were locked, the random killer must have escaped via the side door. Based on Lizzie's inquest testimony, she had visibility of the side door for a goodly amount of her time out of the house and saw no one.
Hiram Lubinsky didn't mention seeing anyone darting out towards the street just prior to seeing Lizzie.

It seems to me that the random killer theory doesn't have much merit.

[Marchesk]

Since cellar door and front doors were locked

Do you know where it was stated that the cellar door was locked that morning? I've seen some speculation that the intruder could have gotten in through the cellar, and perhaps Lizzie mentioned it to someone as a possibility?

So random killer and Lizzie were all alone in that house for roughly an hour, and yet, Lizzie survived.

Agreed, a random intruder makes no sense. I think serial killer can be ruled out. And there's no evidence of a robbery gone bad, and no reason for a robber to stick around to kill a second time.

It seems to me that the random killer theory doesn't have much merit.

Do you think any sort of intruder theory works as a realistic possibility? Would they have had inside help? I have a hard time understanding how both Bridget and Lizzie wouldn't have known or seen something.

[camgarsky4]

Cellar door. Lizzie did ask Bridget at breakfast Aug 5, if she was sure the cellar door had been closed/locked. Bridget told her it had. Also a number of police/reporters noted the exterior cellar door was locked. Several days after the murders, Morse offered up that he might have seen the cellar door open, but then under cross examination he conceded he wasn't sure.

Unknown Accomplice? I don't see any way that Lizzie was not aware, and therefore, at least a co-conspirator of the killings. I don't think Bridget had any part in the deaths. There are no clues or indications that Bridget and Lizzie were any more than servant/employer.