Just thoughts my family will not put up with over xmas

[DanKatBan]

All my life (and I'm an old woman) I have firmly believed in Lizzie's innocence.
But now I'm not so sure.
- If there was a killer in the house, why kill Abby and Andrew but not Lizzie (who is alone in the house for a long period of time) or Bridget (who is ill and somewhat incapacitated)?
- Abby got almost twice as many blows to the head as Andrew did. Could simply be a factor of the killer being tired or having less time to bash away.
But it could also be that the killer was more angry at Abby than Andrew.
- If there was a killer in the house, they had to come through the side door, which opened onto the kitchen, then move through the sitting room, and upstairs just outside Lizzie's bedroom. In her inquest testimony, Lizzie says she was in the kitchen ironing for the most part, except for when she went upstairs to mend a button, during the time when Abby is most likely to have been murdered. How would she have not seen the killer at some point? I know it's possible from sneaking into my own house after curfew as a teenager, but that involved waiting for mom or dad to move to another room in a different direction than I was going. If they're going in the same direction, I'm really not sure how that could have happened.

But there was only one drop of blood on her underskirt. No blood in her hair or on her hands.

She's the only one alone in the house with Abby during the time that murder happened. She's the last person to speak to Andrew before that murder happened. She had motive, and the motive fits with the damage done, she hated Abby and was pretty mad at her father.
The circumstantial evidence is clear - She had to be the killer.
But the lack of physical evidence is also clear - She couldn't possibly have been the killer.

That's it, I'm going to make a fake skull out of clay, fill it with jello and syrup - and then hit it 11 times with a hatchet and see if I get covered in goo or not.

[camgarsky4]

DankatBan -- Merry Christmas Eve!!

Your points are solid. It seems to leave us with a couple of options to consider....1) Did Lizzie cover herself from the blood splatter by using a coat, apron, dress, raincoat, etc. and/or 2) did she have an accomplice she hired/recruited to do the dirty work and she helped this person navigate the household.

Or I guess a third option, was it possibly a combination of the two.

We still have the issue of the hatchet which seems to have three choices....1) she hid it in house, 2) someone threw it on the Crowe barn roof, or 3) the accomplice took with.

Please be sure to take a self-video of your experiment, we'd all love to see the goo fest!

[DanKatBan]

Will do!!!

[WFordII]

Merry Christmas! You've both raised issues that have also perplexed me. While LB may not have done the deed, I firmly believe she knew who did. Somehow, I believe that Uncle John was withholding information. I would also like to see your experiment!!

[camgarsky4]

Merry Christmas back and to everyone reading the forum!!

Pretty sure for my now traditional "lizzie themed'' Christmas gift, my wife got me a 1891 map of Fall River.....will know shortly. Very excited!

[DanKatBan]

The experiment is in progress! According to the internet, bone fractures like ceramics do. I don't have ceramic clay, but I've got natural air-dry clay which isn't great, but will give the "skull" some structure. As for brains, I am relying once again on Professor Google. The texture is supposed to be somewhere between wet tofu and jello (but not sticky). I have cherry jello, so going with that. And blood is supposed to be about the same viscosity as thin syrup. Also have that. And it's strawberry! have a rudimentary "skull" drying right now. Going to let it dry completely, then cover it with polymer clay to kind of act as skin. Lastly, I think the blood and brain are under a slight pressure inside real skulls, so I'm going to try packing the jello and syrup into ziploc bags. Might add a couple of grapes for eyes.

Does anybody know if the first hit to Andrew was a direct, straight hit or if it was angled?

[WFordII]

Hey! I can't wait to see the results of your experiment! You may get some conclusions by studying AHBs autopsy report. The doctor gave a detailed description of the weapon blows. Also, mind that Lizzie was right-handed.

[DanKatBan]

Hey! I can't wait to see the results of your experiment! You may get some conclusions by studying AHBs autopsy report. The doctor gave a detailed description of the weapon blows. Also, mind that Lizzie was right-handed.

D'OH!!! Of Course!!!! THANK YOU!!!

[WFordII]

You're welcome! Please pm me if you want to talk more about it!

[camgarsky4]

Or post back on this forum so we can all join in the discourse. It is good to get fresh chatter flowing thru the forum.

[WFordII]

Yes, you are right, Camgarsky4! It's exciting to get new perspectives from everyone!

[DanKatBan]

The air dry clay is no good. It's crumbly, cracking, and weak. So...I'm changing up the plan somewhat. I'm going to sacrifice a kitchen bowl and plate, apoxy those together. I'm also going to see if I can get a watermelon. I have this thought that it might be more difficult to pull the hatchet out of an organic thing like a melon or a brain than out of a bowl of jello. I'll start with the watermelon and hit that 19 times. Then move to the bowl, which will be covered in polymer clay and stuffed with the jello and syrup, and hit that 11 times. Hoping to get this done and the video posted before the New Year. Whether that new year is 2023 or 2024 I am not prepared to swear.

[WFordII]

Here's a thought: cut a plug out of a watermelon and fill it with the jello mixture, then replace the plug. That may offer some realism.

[DanKatBan]

Don't know if this link will work, but things are already getting pretty gruesome with this little experiment.
https://www.youtube.com/post/UgkxKrpQPt ... bWeQxo20V8
https://youtu.be/JjUOqgD3pNE

[WFordII]

I saw the still picture. It's ingenious! Is it a video?

[DanKatBan]

I saw the still picture. It's ingenious! Is it a video?

Just added a video link. Still doing the prep.
https://youtu.be/JjUOqgD3pNE

[camgarsky4]

duplicate post.

[camgarsky4]

I am totally impressed. You have already taken your experiment further than I've ever had the "stick-to-it-ness" to accomplish.

Looking forward to the 'assault with a deadly weapon' phase!

[DanKatBan]

Ok, while looking into the angle to use I ran across a few things I hadn't really registered before.
1 - Abby had bruising on her face. That means her face hit something hard (or something hard hit her face) while she was still alive.
2 - The doc said Abby's killer was almost certainly standing over Abby when the blows were struck. That's odd. Abby's on the floor, face down, the first couple of strikes didn't necessarily kill her. Wouldn't the killer have more likely sat or knelt on her back to pin her down? Unless whatever caused the bruising to her face had knocked her unconscious?
3 - The killer struck Andrew from "behind the settee". Since the settee appears to be against a wall, I have to think that means the killer was standing at the side of the settee directly behind the top of Andrew's head. So the hatchet angle is again, odd. The blows are all on the left side of the face, so I had always thought Andrew had the right side of his face on a pillow. But the cuts aren't at an angle. So Andrew almost had to be lying face-up, and if Andrew is lying face-up, and all blows are on the left side of his face - that would kinda indicate the killer was using the left hand. And that's weird, too because they'd have more room to swing on the right-side. Left hand would have to be a strong preference.

Any of the known suspects left-handed?

[WFordII]

Very interesting facts! We do know on record that Lizzie was right handed. I wonder about John Morse...

[DanKatBan]

So going through the forums, there is a lot of debate about this subject. Supposedly Andrew was lying face up with his face turned slightly towards the window. And they claim that the killer was standing basically in the dining room doorway. I have a slight quibble with that. The dining room door from the floorplan here - https://www.historictrialtranscripts.co ... floor-plan (the second one not the sepia toned one) - looks like the hinges would be on the side towards the settee. Which would logistically mean it would have to be more than most of the way open for someone standing in the doorway to be able to reach far enough in to create the wounds that were made. And the Bordens had a thing about closing doors, didn't they?
Anyway, it would solve the left-hand problem, the killer would only be able to reach in with their right hand.
But...why? Why do it that way when one more step would give them them the ability to swing the hatchet without contorting?
So...I looked at the pic of Andrew's skull and saw the deep cut goes like this /
And not having any patience, I took the hatchet to the kitchen and lightly tapped on the watermelon (just enough to make a slight scratch) from above and down with first my right hand and then my left. Right hand mark went this direction \. Left hand mark went the other way, which matches the angle in Andrew's skull.
I'm pretty sure at this point that the killer really was left-handed. (Can still be convinced otherwise, though)

[camgarsky4]

DKB (gave you an acronym!!) -- great experimenting and theorizing. Not totally tracking on your point about where the killer was standing. I've always presumed they opened the dining room door fully, took a very slight step into the sitting room so that the sofa arm was basically between themself and AJB.

To your point, this very topic has been discussed numerous times, but not recently, and I have 'shoved' the topic to the back of my Borden memory bank. Will need to go back and refresh my memory on the topic of the left or right handed debate.

A slightly related note, You might note the dining room closet door is right there at that 'door intersection'....the closet where Bridget testified the Prince Albert coat was kept when not being worn. The extreme proximity of that closet, AJB's body, where the killer likely stood and the final location of the coat are why I think it is highly likely that the killer used the coat as a blood splatter shield. Compounded by Bridget's testimony that the dining room was the first room AJB went to upon getting home from his morning walk. Why else, but to take off the coat, would he have gone to the dining room. His relaxing room was the sitting room, where he ended up going.

[DanKatBan]

Thank you Camgarsky4!!! I'm kinda thinking I'll need to go to the Borden house at some point and walk it through.
I think I may be onto something though. The defense attorney also seemed to think the killer was left-handed. With Lizzie being right-handed that would rule her out.
He kept trying to get one of the medicos to say it was most likely that the wounds were made by someone using their left hand and they kept dodging. I have to wonder why? The watermelon test I just did would have been easy and obvious for them to do.

The coat thing makes sense. Especially since the killer had just gotten first-hand knowledge of what kind of blood spatter to expect. It was supposedly 83 degrees that day. It always astounds me how many clothes these people were wearing in summer. There is no doubt he wore the coat. That he hung it up seems likely. Given it ended up underneath his head, that would cover any amount of blood that was on it.

[DanKatBan]

Very interesting facts! We do know on record that Lizzie was right handed. I wonder about John Morse...

I can't seem to find anything about whether Morse was right or left handed. Can see a lot of debate about whether the killer was right or left-handed, but no further speculation about who would be on the suspect list for that.

This case isa real rabbit hole, ain't it?

[WFordII]

You demonstrated some valid points in your experiment. But at the end of the day, all we can do is surmise. I'm convinced that Abby saw her attacker face to face. Poor Andrew was probably asleep and never saw it coming.

One of the many questions that have haunted me is why didn't anyone hear the attacks. Remember the iconic shower scene in Psycho? I'm sure poor Abby must have screamed as the vicious blows came. What about Andrew? So many missing pieces.

[camgarsky4]

I don't think Abby had an opportunity to scream.

It seems to be the consensus and matches with the evidence, that the first blow hit Abby as she faced the attacker and resulted in a glancing strike off the right side of her face, causing a peeling of her facial skin and spinning her counter clockwise so she faced the wall. She was stunned and fell to the ground face first (causing more bruising) and before she could 'come to', more blows to her skull killed her.

I also think it is very telling that neither Bridget nor anyone on the street heard anything like terror stricken screams.

Regarding Andrew's killer, I tend to think the killer held the hatchet with both hands. I don't think the killer was accustomed with swinging a hatchet, nor do I think they had confidence in their accuracy. Using both hands/arms would help solve both challenges.

[DanKatBan]

Thinking about the bruises on Abby's face. Seems like there doesn't have to be a secondary cause for that. If she's face down on the floor and somebody is hitting her hard enough on the back of her head to break off piece of her skull, seems like that would be plenty of cause for bruising. But it would also mean that she did not die right away. I hope she was unconscious though.

Sometimes people scream when startled, but sometimes they don't. Sometimes, they freeze and can't process what's happening. Voice of experience on that one. Was working at a job, pulled into the parking lot, got out of my car, and realized there were people in the doorway of the office building screaming for me to run. There was a guy at the back of the parking lot shooting at people. I clearly heard the words my co-workers were saying, even heard the shots going past. But my brain simply did not take it in. I walked calmly across the parking lot, went to my desk, started to work, and then vomited in the trash can. Still have no idea how I survived that one.

My point being that it's quite possible that no one heard Abby scream because she didn't. She definitely ended up on the floor, though. Although, there are several ways she could have got into that position, it seems most likely it made quite a bit of noise.

So for the testing, which I thought I was going to get done today but obviously that didn't happen, I'm thinking I start with the watermelon try left hand, then right hand, then both together. I'll also count to 18 hits total and see if there is any watermelon left after that. That should give an estimate of the longest it could have taken, since I'm old, arthritic, and slow.

Then I'll stop, reset, and move to the fake head I made. Since I can't mimic arterial spray, this will really be mostly about how much blood spatter comes off the hatchet and how much force is really needed to break through a skull. I'll try to minimize any goo spray by using short strokes. If I end up covered in goo, even without blood pressure, then it's a pretty good bet the killer did, too. If I end up relatively goo-free, that doesn't prove much, but a negative result is still a result.

This time I'll count to 11 hits and see if there's anything left of my little creation. Again, I'm old and slow, so that will give an estimate of the longest it could have taken to kill Andrew.

[WFordII]

I knew that from evidence, the first blow probably didn't kill Abby. I had never considered that she may not have had the chance to scream. You've helped answer a significant question in my mind. Thanks! You also may have helped clarify the right or left hand issue. It makes sense that the killer may have used both hands for more swinging power.

Sense Abby undoubtedly faced the killer, she would have screamed the second she saw a stranger. It leads me to belive she knew him or her.

What's your take on Abbys faux braid which was lying on the bed bloodless? I've often wondered if perhaps she was taking a minute or two to adjust her hair. The braid flew from her hand while reeling from the killers first blow. Or, did the killer rip it off in a second of murderous rage?

[WFordII]

I can't wait to read about the results of your experiment! The question about a blood-spattered killer is a crucial issue. With all the layers of clothing Victorian women wore, it would have been quite difficult for Lizzie to undress, wash up, and redress without a hint of blood. Except, of course, the tiny drop on her undergarments that were ruled her own menstrual blood.

Keep us informed, friend!!

[DanKatBan]

What's your take on Abbys faux braid which was lying on the bed bloodless? I've often wondered if perhaps she was taking a minute or two to adjust her hair. The braid flew from her hand while reeling from the killers first blow. Or, did the killer rip it off in a second of murderous rage?

WFordII have you seen this thread?
https://lizzieandrewborden.com/LBForum/ ... bby#p59719

All I can say is poor Abby! She could have been the Wicked Witch of the West and she still wouldn't have deserved the death she got.
According to that thread, the braid was found near Abby, but the clump of hair on the bed was her own.
And it looks like a specific bloodstain on the bed lines up with her injuries if she is on the bed on her back.

So it seems like Abby may have been on the other side of the bed when the attack started, was taken completely by surprise, got knocked onto the bed and somehow rolled off it trying to get away. All the time, the assailant was slashing at her. Once she was on her stomach on the floor by the bed, the attacker almost certainly sat or knelt on her, grabbed her hair to control the movements of her head and then hacked away.

That poor woman.
Also, there is inquest testimony, concerning the strikes to Abby's head, "all were left to right blows". So once again, I think the evidence strongly leans in the direction of a left-handed person. And if that's so, why does the conversation keep getting dropped? Is there just no one who is known to be left-handed in suspect list?

[WFordII]

Thanks for the info! I still wonder about John Morse.

[DanKatBan]

Trial Transcript/Cross Examination/Dolan - Adams
Volume 1, Pg. 947:
“Q. You think the assailant swung the instrument from left to right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And all those wounds can be fairly accounted for by blows from left to right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. That is to say, it is a left handed blow?
A. In what sense left–handed: delivered by the left hand?
Q. That it strikes the body in a left-handed direction,---from left to right?
A. Yes, sir, to a certain extent. Those that are most markedly from left to right are those that would come down directly as the head lies there now, and give the direction of a left-handed blow.”

[DanKatBan]

Sorry, I'm like a terrier with this left-handed bone.
The only physical evidence we have is some pictures of the blood spatter and the damage done to the skulls.
The bodies were moved before the pictures were taken, so as impactful as those pictures are, they don't actually show the bodies as the killer left them. They have to be discounted.
So, from the injuries we have the "Flap wound" is on the right side of Abby's face. If she is facing her attacker and the attacker has the hatchet in their left hand, that makes sense. At this point in the attack we can't say for sure that's how it went, but the strike was from the front so it starts to set a pattern.
Then the back Right side of Abby's skull is basically missing. Assuming (I hate having to assume) that most of the damage was inflicted after her body was already on the floor, her head according to the reports was turned East, towards the bed, exposing the right side of her head. Dolan was partially right in the testimony above to say that he couldn't tell if the attacker was left-handed. There are a ton of things including the angle of the strike and the movement of the victim, etc. that could affect how the marks looked.
But we have 2 separate instances and there's a strong pattern through both indicating that the killer had the hatchet in the left hand.

The testimony above was for Abby's injuries. Here is the testimony about Andrew's:
Q. How do you account for the fact, if it be a fact, that there are no spots upon that small table that stood very near the front of the sofa and had books and other objects upon it?
A. In the first place, I don't think the assailant swung the instrument in that direction.

Q. You think the assailant swung the instrument from left to right, don't you?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. And all those wounds can be fairly accounted for by blows from left to right?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. That is to say, it is a left handed blow?
A. In what sense left-handed: delivered by the left hand?

Q. That it strikes the body in a left-handed direction,---from left to right?
A. Yes, sir, to a certain extent. Those that are most markedly from left to right are those that would come down directly as the head lies there now, and give the direction of a left-handed blow.

Q. And those blows made quite as severe injuries as any?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. And the strongest left-handed blow, in your opinion, was the blow upon the eyebrow where that bone was chipped out?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. In your opinion, would a strong and crushing blow not have been necessary to have made that?
A. No, sir.

Q. A light blow, in your opinion, could have done that?
A. Not a light blow; no, sir.

Q. A fairly strong blow?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was it a one-handed or a two-handed blow, in your opinion?
A. I could not tell you.

Q. Have you any opinion about that?
A. I think one-handed could do it.

[DanKatBan]

So I am pretty darned sure at this point that the killer actually was left-handed.
This forum has something about Lizzie being right-handed.
Alexa and Google say she was left-handed.
If she's right-handed, she literally could not physically have been the killer.
If she's left-handed, it's not a slam-dunk but it makes a pretty good case that she was.
Combined with the circumstantial evidence, that would be convictable.

I think this forum got it right for one simple reason - it was the defense attorney Melvin Adams who was pressing for the doctor to say whether the killer was left-handed or not. He wouldn't have been chasing that if it would have convicted his client.

So, step one not completed but in progress. Lizzie did not swing the hatchet herself. Doesn't make her completely innocent, but explains why there's no blood spatter on her. Not only did she not do it, she wasn't even in the rooms when it happened.

Step two is figuring out who did swing the hatchet and how they got into the Borden house in the first place. If someone came in the side door, Lizzie would have had to see and\or run into them at some point during that morning. So, she would have had to be an accomplice.

The next thing that's got my attention though, is that John Morse specifically testifies that he left the Guest bedroom door open. And Lizzie specifically testifies that when she took her laundry upstairs, the guest bedroom door was closed. There is no reason for Abby to close that door if she's just changing pillow shams. If both testimonies are true, then it's likely Abby was dead before Lizzie took her laundry upstairs and the killer was in the guest room hiding or cleaning up.

[DanKatBan]

OH! And by the time Bridget goes looking upstairs, that Guest bedroom door is open again.
So it's plausible that the killer closed the door and hung out in the Guest bedroom until they heard Andrew coming in and Lizzie go downstairs.
Once Andrew is in the sitting room, Bridget heads up the back stairs, and if Lizzie's testimony is correct, she heads out the side door to go to the barn.
That means the killer could have slipped downstairs and waited in the front hallway or even the parlor until both the women were out of the house or at least not on the first floor. The Parlor door had blood on it from the knob down:
Q. Do you recollect how the blood spots upon the parlor door in the sitting room appeared before they were washed off?

A. The one that goes into the parlor?

Q. The sitting room door, yes, that goes into the parlor.

A. There was quite a considerable many spots of blood on it.

Q. What portion of the door were they on?

A. Mostly from the knob down.

Q. Any above the knob that you noticed or recollect?

A. I dont recollect.

[WFordII]

Whoever the killer was, they knew the layout of the house. With the unjust prejudices held against Irish immigrants at the time, it still baffles me that they didn't try to lay blame on Bridgette. If we are to believe everyone's alibis, then we must revisit the suggestion of an unrelated murderer.

[DanKatBan]

So I think I have a working hypothesis here. Still the two same huge questions left unanswered:
1) who swung the hatchet?
2) how did they get in or out of the house

Emma was away. If John Morse is behind all this, then he could conceivably have let someone into the house the night before while the family was asleep and let them into Emma's room. But to get to Emma's room, they'd have to go through Lizzie's room (this house layout is insane). If Lizzie's asleep, it's possible. If Lizzie's awake, she's an accomplice.

John Morse is the first one downstairs. He's out of the house before Lizzie even wakes up. When Lizzie goes downstairs, Abby is also still downstairs. But she goes upstairs relatively soon after that, I believe while Lizzie is having tea and cookies for breakfast. There may have been some kind of plan, but I have to think while the killer is waiting, they hear Abby moving around in the guest room, leave Emma's room, go through Lizzie's, go into the Guest room, and Abby turns around when she hears the door close.

How off the beam have I gone at this point?

[DanKatBan]

Ok, SORRY! I get excited and then run off at the keyboard.
There are 2 possible answers -
1) Lizzie let someone in the side door while Bridget was washing windows
2) John Morse hired somebody.
I'm strongly leaning towards John Morse and Emma (not Lizzie) made the agreement to hire a killer. I think they deliberately left Lizzie in the dark because she would have talked. And I think that was why Lizzie was so on edge. She knew something bad was about to happen, but wasn't quite sure what. That can make a person hella nervous.
I think Emma went to FairHaven specifically to not be on the suspect list and took Lizzie with her. But they split up. And because Emma hadn't told her what was going on, Lizzie headed back home. But because Emma did know what the plan was, she knew without a doubt that Lizzie was innocent and that's why, even years later, when the sisters were no longer speaking to each other, Emma still insisted that Lizzie didn't do it when interviewed.
I haven't found the info to back this up, but supposedly, John Morse brought Lizzie a dinner pail every day for the time she was in jail, and Lizzie refused to see or speak to him.
Lizzie, for what it's worth, seemed genuinely convinced it was her Uncle Hiram who had arranged the murders.

[DanKatBan]

OH! And I think the phone call John Morse got while he was at his niece's that day was the killer calling to tell him the job was done.

[camgarsky4]

Dankat -- I'm enjoying your iterative thinking. Here are a few issues that might need to be added to your brain storming....
1) Lizzie testified she kept her bedroom door locked. So Morse would not have been able to sneak anyone into Emma's room w/o Lizzie providing access.
2) If Lizzie was not involved and Emma's room not accessible, where did Morse 'hide' the intruder?
3) Lizzie testified that Abby closed the guest room door to keep room 'fresh' for the upcoming Monday's visitors (we don't know who they might have been).
4) Morse denied he said he got a telephone call at the Emery's. Several researchers (including William Spencer) have dove into the possibility that the Emery's would have possessed a phone when in 1892 so very few non-businesses had home phones. The consensus is they would not have been able to afford a phone and Ms. Emery made no mention of a phone in her interviews.
5) What would John Morse motive be?

I presume you do not think that someone holding the hatchet with both hands and using both arms to strike someone could not account for the left to right swings?
Unless Abby was frozen in place, she was undoubtedly moving to some extent, which further distorts the situation. Seems to me it would depend highly on the exact positioning and angle of both the victim and killer.

Until you mention above, I hadn't read or heard a scenario with Abby being attacked on the door side of the bed, rolling across the bed and landing where she was found. What is your source and/or proof points for this theory? It would be an interesting alternative scenario.

Keep the ideating going! I'm loving it!

[DanKatBan]

Hi Camgarsky4,
Thank you so much for your patience on this! Let me see if I can answer these.

1) Dangit! I missed that. So definitely would have to be in the know if that's how it happened. Or...Emma gave him a copy of her key (assuming she had one)
2) Since John was up and about first, maybe he brought somebody in and had them hide in the dress closet across from Lizzie's room? I don't know how big that was or if it could accommodate a person. The important part being the killer wouldn't have to move around too much to get to Abby in the Guest room. We're definitely in the realm of speculation here. I think the same thought about Emma and the copy of the key could apply to this door, too.
3) Entirely possible Abby closed the door. That doesn't rule out someone entering the room (which they kinda had to do, right? Unless they descended from an air vent... joking! I'm not that far gone yet.) and closing the door behind them again.
4) You're 100% right on the phone call. That's probably just mythology.
5) And that's the million dollar question. Again in the area of speculation, maybe Emma had gone to her favorite uncle, described how her inheritance was being given to Abby and begged him for help? I'd have to go over it again but I think Morse gave testimony that Andrew had talked to him about plans to make a will and give some of his property to charity.

I absolutely think that the killer used both hands at some points. Particularly on Abby. Dolan was partially right in the testimony above to say that he couldn't tell if the attacker was left-handed. There are a ton of things including the angle of the strike and the movement of the victim, etc. that could affect how the marks looked. If we only had that one incident, it would be stretching things pretty far to say either hand was a preference. But we also have Andrew's skull, and even Dolan, who was being very cautious, admitted, "Those that are most markedly from left to right are those that would come down directly as the head lies there now, and give the direction of a left-handed blow."

And Abby being on the bed, I think I found that here - https://lizzieandrewborden.com/LBForum/ ... bby#p59719
Going to have to substantiate it with primary docs, so that may turn out not to be right. I may have just accepted it because it sounds more in line with what changing pillow shams looks like in my head, ya know? Going to have to chase that down.

[WFordII]

Yes!! I've always suspected John Morse. He may have resented the possibility of Abby taking what was rightfully his deceased sister's inheritance. Morse also had a background in butchering. Coincidence? Plus, his attitude at the crime scene was totally inappropriate, even when considering Victorian sterness and shock.

[DanKatBan]

Hi WFordII,

And I think he was very clear in his testimony that he was closer to Emma than to Lizzie. So if he was in cahoots with one of the sisters I really think it was more likely to be Emma. And honestly, knowing as little as I do about Lizzie, I wouldn't trust the woman to babysit a goldfish, much less keep some kind of life and death secret.

[WFordII]

True, DKB! Unlike Lizzie, Emma remembered their mother Sarah well. While young Lizzie called Abby "Mother" up until the family fued over property, Emma called her Abby. Then, of course, she became "Mrs. Borden." I'd never considered the coincidences that Morse happened to come for a visit and Emma suddenly trotted off to Fairhaven. Still, I don't think Lizzie was totally oblivious or innocent.

[DanKatBan]

WFordII, I think you're probably right that Lizzie knew something.
Obviously, the simplest solution to all this is Lizzie let somebody into the house pointed them to where Abby was and later Andrew, and then got the heck outta the way.
The reason I'm leaning towards the other solution is Morse and Emma definitely knew they were going to need rock solid alibis, but not Lizzie? All she had to do was walk over to where Bridget and the other girl were chatting and ask what they were talking about. Once she's seen outside around the time of the murder, she's in the clear.
But she didn't do that.
I've heard that there's a saying among public defenders that an innocent client is the hardest to defend because they've given no thought to their alibi.
Also, she sat in a jail cell for over a year without saying, "It wasn't me, it was Sammy from the farm!" (or whoever) in a moment of fear or homesickness? If she committed the murders then it makes sense that she never fessed up. But if it wasn't her, and she didn't give anybody else up, I think it's most likely because she didn't know who to blame.

[WFordII]

True! But why does modern media try to make the elder Bordens as monsters who "had it coming." Victim blaming hurts them again and again.

[DanKatBan]

WFordII, I know!!!! That drives me insane. I think it might be a psychological protection thing? Something like this?
These people were killed horribly.
I don't want to be killed horribly.
They must have been horrible people.
I am safe because I am not horrible like them.

[camgarsky4]

The police needed to get a key from Lizzie to enter the 2nd story clothes closet.

You are thinking that John would massacre two people he had known for 20 years because his niece wanted money sooner? He and Andrew spend considerable time together and seemingly liked each other. He knew the sisters had disposable income and unless Andrew was the evil person we don't think he was, Morse had literally no plausible reason to slaughter AJB and Abby just so the girls could move to a nicer house. That would require a shockingly evil person to think and act that way.

We have absolutely no documentation or even innuendoes that John had a violent side. He moved back to Iowa immediately after the trial and continued to live a peaceful life. There are multiple newspaper articles about his doings in Iowa. Interestingly, he left money to his other nieces and nephews, but not the Borden sisters.

The stated reason Morse visited was due to an active negotiation for Davis to purchase a couple livestock from Borden. Per the testimony of the Swansea farm hands, they asked Morse if the transaction was going to happen. So Morse's stated reason for the visit was substantiated.

Regarding the will, yes, Morse testified that Andrew had mentioned once or twice in the most recent year that perhaps he might consider donating property for an Old Women's Home. He did not mention specifically writing a will, even though that might be implied.

Just to be contrary.....at this point, you've got Emma soliciting Morse to arrange a murder by a hired hand? Why isn't it easier to assume Lizzie did the deed herself as the sole known occupant of the house for Abby's murder to secure her inheritance now.

Now all that said, I do think it is very possible that Emma knew tensions were crazy high at the Borden's and encouraged Morse to visit the Borden's sooner rather than later to get a read on the situation. So he had a legit reason to visit and he may have gone that day or week because Emma prodded him out of worry.

[camgarsky4]

The police needed to get a key from Lizzie to enter the 2nd story clothes closet.

You are thinking that John would massacre two people he had known for 20 years because his niece wanted money sooner? He and Andrew spend considerable time together and seemingly liked each other. He knew the sisters had disposable income and unless Andrew was the evil person we don't think he was, Morse had literally no plausible reason to slaughter AJB and Abby just so the girls could move to a nicer house. That would require a shockingly evil person to think and act that way.

We have absolutely no documentation or even innuendoes that John had a violent side. He moved back to Iowa immediately after the trial and continued to live a peaceful life. There are multiple newspaper articles about his doings in Iowa. Interestingly, he left money to his other nieces and nephews, but not the Borden sisters.

The stated reason Morse visited was due to an active negotiation for Davis to purchase a couple livestock from Borden. Per the testimony of the Swansea farm hands, they asked Morse if the transaction was going to happen. So Morse's stated reason for the visit was substantiated.

Regarding the will, yes, Morse testified that Andrew had mentioned once or twice in the most recent year that perhaps he might consider donating property for an Old Women's Home. He did not mention specifically writing a will, even though that might be implied.

Just to be contrary.....at this point, you've got Emma soliciting Morse to arrange a murder by a hired hand? Why isn't it easier to assume Lizzie did the deed herself as the sole known occupant of the house for Abby's murder to secure her inheritance now.

Now all that said, I do think it is very possible that Emma knew tensions were crazy high at the Borden's and encouraged Morse to visit the Borden's sooner rather than later to get a read on the situation. So he had a legit reason to visit and he may have gone that day or week because Emma prodded him out of worry.

[DanKatBan]

Hi Camgarsky4,

The simplest solution is that Lizzie hired a killer, let them into the house, pointed them in Abby's direction, and later Andrew's, and left so she would have an alibi.
But that doesn't quite work because she didn't actually create an alibi for herself. If she'd figured out how to hire a killer then she'd been thinking about this for a while. She might not have been the sharpest axe in the shed, but even someone not terribly bright is going to figure out that they need to be elsewhere during a hired killing. If she needed to be there to let the killer in, then she should have let him in and gone over to Alice Russell's for a while. That way, she wouldn't have been on the suspect list at all.

The only way I can see it playing out the way it did if Lizzie isn't the killer (and I think the left-handed killer clears her of swinging the axe), is that Lizzie really didn't know what was going on or who the killer was. There was "trouble in the house" according to Andrew, so whatever was going on had gotten pretty bad. He doesn't seem like the kind of man who talked about problems at home much. But that doesn't mean anyone expects their kid to go on the attack.

The reason I think John Morse is involved is his overly detailed alibi. The man knew he was going to be asked about his whereabouts to the point where he remembered the conductor's badge number. Other than that, he seems like a very nice guy. He got along with Andrew very well. But John and Emma both seemed to know that something was about to happen. Emma got outta town and stayed gone until she got the telegram that it was over. John went to his niece's and made sure people saw him at the post office, plus memorizing details (6 priests on the tram) that would prove he was there. Not the kind of thing your average person does on a Thursday.

It cannot have been a random killing because Lizzie doesn't get harmed. If it's just some random psycho off a passing train (a real theory I read somewhere) then all four of the people in the house (Abby, Andrew, Lizzie, and Bridget) get hacked. If it's someone with a business grievance against Andrew, then there's no reason to kill Abby. She was upstairs and there's no reason to think she'd be involved with Andrew's business concerns.

Do I know what the motive for the killing was? Not yet. That's going to take more digging. Plus, I don't really know anything, I'm just trying to make educated guesses and see if they hold up to scrutiny. But so far, I'm pretty comfortable saying the killer was left-handed and had to already be inside the house by the time Bridget got down to the kitchen. Preferably, somewhere on the front part of the second floor. Otherwise Bridget or Lizzie is going to see them on their way upstairs to kill Abby.