Finally Visiting the House!

Reasonwhy · Post by **Reasonwhy** » Tue May 02, 2023 2:05 pm

Well, after all these years, I am finally going to visit the site. My husband and I will be taking the extended tour that includes the basement and staying overnight in the Abby and Andrew suite—in just three weeks! Husband wanted to make our long-desired vacation to New England, and was a terrific sport about my wanting time in the house to explore.
I really would have liked to stay in Lizzie’s room, but Abby and Andrew’s has the private bath, so that decided it.

We will also spend time at the Fall River Historical Society, look around the cemetery, and drive by Maplecroft

Any tips from those who have visited, especially in recent years?
(My intense interest in the case does not extend to paranormal or “ghost” activities, so we won’t be participating in any of those.)

Thanks for any advice! I will post again afterwards with my impressions…

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu May 04, 2023 2:23 am

Hola!
Thanks for PMing me to let me know you are going to Fall River!
That is sooo exciting! I can’t imagine how much it has changed after all this time…and how the whole House experience would be different apres-Lee-Ann. If you’ve not been yet, of course you will not have an expectation with which to compare, so I personally would find your commentary very interesting!

I don’t know how much the House is relying on supernatural stuff as a possible popular entertainment factor, but if you discuss your wishes not to be involved in that, I would hope you would be accommodated.

Staying over, you get to explore the cellar! That is cool- not everyone goes there.
I was overwhelmed at times on a trip like you describe and so I kept a journal of the days activities and notes on my and my family/ friends impressions and reactions- just so I could then sleep at night!

My only suggestions are: Expect to get lost driving, take lots of pictures, and maybe bring a list of who you want to visit at Oak Grove.

(If the office is open they may have a map that at least shows layout of the routes and paths which is very helpful).

Reasonwhy · Post by **Reasonwhy** » Thu May 04, 2023 8:30 am

So great to “hear” your voice again, Kat!!
I love your journal idea, as I already anticipate after-visit regret that I did not notice or spend enough time on X, Y, and Z

From their website I see the FRHS will have recently re-opened when we make the trip — I’m SO glad. Your cemetery map idea is great, and I will inquire.
How I wish I had made the trip in earlier days…we could have sat together in the sitting room and discussed it all for hours! But, I am fortunate to be going at all.
I think I will “get” the case so much better for experiencing the size, angles, feel of the rooms and of the house itself. I am re-reading posts of folks who’ve visited before me to glean advice for focusing my attention, but if you think of anything else you’d like me to note, or that I should not overlook, please do let me know. And again, thanks so much for responding. I think I can speak for all on the forum when I say WE MISS YOU.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu May 04, 2023 11:52 pm

Thanks! Nice to hear from you!
I was wondering if the FRHS would be open- Good!
And if you miss anything, just know you will have to go back!

Absolutely, your house visit will aid you and advance you in your understanding of the Borden case.
There’s lots of pics of Stef/Me/Harry/MB/ Len/ and Doug and Marylou chatting in the parlor etc but we were not solving the case…we were discussing the best place to get ice cream!

…And getting suggestions on other places to visit. But your impressions will be truly your own.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu May 04, 2023 11:58 pm

If you want more Fall River history and enjoy the Fall River Line, there’s a big restaurant near the Hampton Inn called White’s that held a huge collection from the ships, all thru the lobby and around the interior. I suggest you check ahead to see if they are still open and still have the artifacts. Harry and I almost got locked in there after hours, we stayed so long immersed in the exhibits.

eddylzb59 · Post by **eddylzb59** » Fri May 05, 2023 4:11 pm

I will b there Tuesday staying in the same room you are.Went last year and stayed in the guest bedroom.The FRHS needs to quit changing their dates they open,missed it last time and they changed it again.Great place to go -Fall River rocks!

Reasonwhy · Post by **Reasonwhy** » Fri May 05, 2023 4:15 pm

We will just miss each other — too bad. I have been hoping other folks well-versed in the case will be staying when we are to gather in the sitting room to discuss! Hope you enjoy your stay. Please post your impressions afterward!

Reasonwhy · Post by **Reasonwhy** » Fri May 05, 2023 4:19 pm

Kat, now White’s is one more place I want to check out. My poor husband may not get to see anything non-Lizzie related in New England

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat May 06, 2023 1:33 am

Looks like White’s of Westport is still open. Don’t know about exhibits, tho : you may call?
Hubby would like “non-Lizzie” Fall River Line boat stuff, I bet

https://www.whitesofwestport.com/

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat May 06, 2023 1:36 am

Where else in New England will you be visiting, may I ask? Going to Newport by any chance?

Reasonwhy · Post by **Reasonwhy** » Sun May 07, 2023 2:27 pm

Yes, going to Newport! We’re interested in the Gilded Age summer houses after having toured Biltmore in N.C. last spring.
We know we want to go to New Bedford’s whaling museum, and possibly Nantucket (both Melville fans). We may go to Salem for the history, and tour the House of the Seven Gables. Old Sturbridge Village looks intriguing. My husband wants to do some genealogical research in Yarmouth Port. We may stay a couple of nights in Boston for history and the Aquarium, and my husband would like to see Harvard. Martha’s Vineyard is also a possibility. Narrowing the itinerary and booking hotels and tours today and tomorrow. Have you more suggestions, Kat? Your ideas are much appreciated!

Reasonwhy · Post by **Reasonwhy** » Sun May 07, 2023 2:32 pm

Oh, and I’d like to see Emily Dickinson’s house (see what I mean by needing to “narrow”?).

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon May 08, 2023 4:48 am

Well, that’s great! Sounds wonderful!
If you’ve seen Biltmore you might consider the tour of the Breakers- the “other” Vanderbilt house.
That would round you up nicely

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon May 08, 2023 4:52 am

I think the FRHS will try to open by the 15th of May.
I hope that fits your schedule. You see, the delay has been due to the fact that volunteers run the daily schedule and since the pandemic they need to feel comfortable and confident to serve the public safely.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon May 08, 2023 4:59 am

If I had to choose between visiting the Vineyard and Nantucket I would opt for the ferry to Nantucket in a

heartbeat! The thing is, when folks go there, they don’t want to leave…Might be a drag on the rest of your trip and we may never hear from you again

Reasonwhy · Post by **Reasonwhy** » Mon May 08, 2023 12:14 pm

Ha

. What has you swooning over Nantucket vs. Martha’s Vineyard, pray tell??

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed May 17, 2023 2:16 am

If you are on your trip, looks like the FRHS Museum Shop is having a 30% off sale, you lucky duck!
Open Monday - Friday 9- 3 pm.

camgarsky4 · Post by **camgarsky4** » Wed May 17, 2023 4:30 am

Hi Kat!

Reasonwhy -- very jealous of your visit to FR! I tried to order copies of the Phillips photos a few months ago on-line, but the FRHS had decided to stop selling them because they were going to publish a book with the photos. You might see if that is still their plan and when they would publish the book.

Also, an update on the status of a Hilliard Papers book would be useful. Looking forward to reading all your impressions and observations.

Reasonwhy · Post by **Reasonwhy** » Wed May 17, 2023 11:02 am

Ooh, 30% off, yay! And so good to know, Kat; thanks! We are flying, but Husband sweetly said, “There is always shipping.” (The 14th was our 35th anniversary, so this trip is for celebrating.)
Wish we could eliminate sleep as there is so much I want to do.

Reasonwhy · Post by **Reasonwhy** » Wed May 17, 2023 11:12 am

Camgarsky, are you actually envying me as you’re about to take an international vacation??? That is so funny—something only a true Lizzie buff could understand. It is a bit strange to imagine moving from my 45 years of thoughts about the case to sensory impressions of Lizzie’s houses, her gravestone, her town. I can anticipate this experience will reawaken my intense preoccupation with her story.
I will happily inquire for you at the FRHS, and try to be keenly observant so I can make my impressions report interesting. Please don’t hesitate to offer more suggestions for our visit! And thanks for being interested

camgarsky4 · Post by **camgarsky4** » Wed May 17, 2023 11:46 am

Not to rub it in (but I will).....just got back to our hotel from a long walk through the alley's & streets of Rome!! Vatican tomorrow! Wonderful city.

Reasonwhy · Post by **Reasonwhy** » Wed May 17, 2023 11:51 am

Italy is on the top of my husband’s bucket list. I know it is off-topic, but if you could somehow post, on part of the forum or via PM, your favorite impressions of your visit to Italy, we would both be acutely interested. Hope you are both having a marvelous time

camgarsky4 · Post by **camgarsky4** » Thu May 18, 2023 3:23 pm

I left my Jennings Journal book at the hotel in Siena!! Pretty bummed....had a bunch of highlights & notes. Maybe whomever finds it will become a Lizzie convert. :lol

Reasonwhy · Post by **Reasonwhy** » Thu May 18, 2023 3:55 pm

Could you ask hotel to mail it to you if someone turns it in? That is a huge bummer—so much time invested.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri May 19, 2023 12:11 am

camgarsky4 wrote: ↑Wed May 17, 2023 4:30 am Hi Kat!

Reasonwhy -- very jealous of your visit to FR! I tried to order copies of the Phillips photos a few months ago on-line, but the FRHS had decided to stop selling them because they were going to publish a book with the photos. You might see if that is still their plan and when they would publish the book.

Also, an update on the status of a Hilliard Papers book would be useful. Looking forward to reading all your impressions and observations.

These are the rare shots we never see, of Third Street:

38a. View showing Dr. Chagnon's driveway and the Tripp residence
38b. Same as 38a but bearing written explanation
39. Dr. Chagnon's yard showing rear of Borden barn and yard - this view is in the 1934 Phillips news article, but in newspaper quality.
40. Dr. Chagnon's house and yard- this view is now available in “Parallel Lives”
41. View showing "Crowe's Yard" with written explanation
42. Dr Kelly's back yard
43. Mrs. Churchill's front steps

Either through archival research time or the public Borden exhibit at the FRHS, I have seen every one of these pictures except I don’t recall #43, "Mrs. Churchill’s front steps.” And yes, they used to be for sale, but not for almost 20 years.

camgarsky4 · Post by **camgarsky4** » Fri May 19, 2023 4:34 am

Thanks Kat.

On photo 38a, do you recall if the Chagnon piazza stretched across the entire front of the house or was just on the southeast edge of the front? I've read the testimonies and stared at the Parallel Lives photo of the Chagnon house. My takeaway is that the piazza was just on the southeast corner, but some of the testimony is a big unclear and the Boston Globe neighborhood drawing shows the porch running full length of the front of house.

I'm running thru scenarios where Lucy might not have seen someone cutting thru the orchard.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat May 20, 2023 2:23 am

chagnon-yard.JPG

( If you click on pic it isolates it.)
This shows porch entry from front of Chagnon's house and does extend back, but not across the front.

Muriel Arnold has a plot plan that shows a porch across the front as well (calling it a piazza), but I did not see that here, nor in my drawing of the Tripp House and Chagnon driveway. To answer your question about the mysterious pic 38a. on my drawing of it I had noted "Chagnon house not shown."
The Chagnon house and Tripp house looked pretty close to each other and lots of gates and fence…it appeared to me the only access to yards from that side would be up the driveway on that side.

My drawings always suffer from lack of perspective, tho if I can resize it, I will post it. It's not very useful as a photo either, but I certainly think we have earned a viewing of the actual picture!

I'td be nice to know what season in which these Third Street views were taken, because that grove of trees is pretty sparse of trees and leaves.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat May 20, 2023 2:30 am

Is the Chagnon dog’s activities or reactions included anywhere? Sorry, I’ve not been here for a while…

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat May 20, 2023 4:55 am

Found the other newspaper picture of the Chagnon's back yard. (Plz click on pic.)
I had emphasized the lines with a fine point pen.

ChagnonDoghousePic.jpg

--My "drawing" of Tripp house gate and fence etc on Third Street is not worth posting.

camgarsky4 · Post by **camgarsky4** » Sun May 21, 2023 8:24 am

Kat -- your 'outlining' really makes the photo more digestable.

I've read and reread the Chagnon/Collette/Kirby/Gifford testimonies, statements and articles. Since we've last share forum posts, I have gotten more 'comfortable' to the idea that Lizzie may have had an external accessory to the crimes. Still think it was Lizzie solo, but less solid on that perspective.

Escaping via the Chagnon orchard is easily the best option for a co-conspirator to escape, so working to form a point of view how likely it would be for Lucy to have definitely seen anyone cutting thru the orchard.

I just got back from Italy last night, so once we've fully unpacked and got house back in order (20 year old twin sons have been left alone in the house for 10 days

) I'll post some of the key testimonies I've pulled together. There are also some useful comments in Jennings Journals related to the Chagnon situation, but my book copy and notes are sitting somewhere in Siena, Italy. Urrghhh.

More to come on this topic.....

Reasonwhy · Post by **Reasonwhy** » Sun May 21, 2023 9:11 am

Very intriguing, Camgarsky, and I can’t wait to read more of your thinking along this line. I’ve been wondering more about an accomplice myself…and Kat, haven’t you always rather leaned toward this idea, of a conspiracy among at least two people?
I can feel myself being beguiled back into the case as our night at the house, this Wednesday, the 24th, edges closer. We may explore part of Fall River even Tuesday—Maple Croft, Maple Grove Cemetery, other Lizzie sites. Thursday morning, after breakfast in the dining room at the house (I’m so excited to sit and eat where they ate!), we’ll head to the FRHS.
Any last-minute advice or requests, anyone? I need to review your Hatchet article, Kat, from your (2004?) visit to feel better prepared. Journaling my list of must-notice items today and tomorrow…

camgarsky4 · Post by **camgarsky4** » Sun May 21, 2023 9:16 am

If you have a chance, you might go to the spot where the Chagnon house stood and gain an opinion of the view Lucy would have had of the Chagnon's southern orchard property line.

A house currently stands on what would have been the northeast corner/side of the orchard. If you want to prep for the view, Googlemaps allows you to get a view street level.

Reasonwhy · Post by **Reasonwhy** » Sun May 21, 2023 9:42 am

Sounds good. Will photo from there if I can.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue May 23, 2023 2:14 am

Definitely the Borden Exhibit at the FRHS. It's a bit overwhelming, so take your time.

And camgarsky, I remember being young and passionate about this case: traveling to Charleston on the train for 8 hours, 40 min. cab ride to James Island, running up the front steps (the house was on stilts) kissing my host and hostess hello, using the restroom, and then asking "where's the computer? I gotta check the Forum!"

2005 ish? I had read every single post since Forum inception and did not want to miss anything!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue May 23, 2023 4:05 pm

I asked, and The Hilliard Papers will be a project still in the future.

camgarsky4 · Post by **camgarsky4** » Tue May 23, 2023 4:09 pm

Thanks for checking on Hilliard. I hope it is as juicy as Jennings. There are quite a few grand jury witnesses that we don't know what they had to contribute to the case....maybe the H. Papers will have more witness statements than have been published to date. Fingers crossed.

Or Hilliard might provide insights on if and what about he and Charles cook discussed AJB and a will.

eddylzb59 · Post by **eddylzb59** » Wed May 24, 2023 12:15 am

Hi all...I had a great week long vacation in Fall River. Stayed at Lizzie's house in the parents bedroom(my 2nd time at the B&B). The real treat... made it into the FRHS! On the day we were leaving -was the first in and My dream came true saw the Lizzie room.To see all of this with my own eyes was amazing...the real treat for me..the bloody pillow shams with the hair piece and the "Hoodoo Hatchet".Met Michael Martins also.Bought almost 300 bucks of LB jewlery!

camgarsky4 · Post by **camgarsky4** » Wed May 24, 2023 6:32 am

Nice! Reasonwhy will be next to give us a similar message. :)

I am curious....are the shams like pillow cases or just flat linen covers to go over the pillow? Is the blood on the shams 'droplets' or something more substantive?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu May 25, 2023 12:29 am

Here is the Forum link to the bedspread and the description of it from the FRHS website, and a description of the shams but no picture. Note: 3 pictures total: 1of bedspread, 2 descriptions as screen shots. Can click on pics.

https://lizzieandrewborden.com/LBForum/ ... ad#p101176

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu May 25, 2023 12:37 am

eddylzb59 wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 12:15 am Hi all...I had a great week long vacation in Fall River. Stayed at Lizzie's house in the parents bedroom(my 2nd time at the B&B). The real treat... made it into the FRHS! On the day we were leaving -was the first in and My dream came true saw the Lizzie room.To see all of this with my own eyes was amazing...the real treat for me..the bloody pillow shams with the hair piece and the "Hoodoo Hatchet".Met Michael Martins also.Bought almost 300 bucks of LB jewlery!

Wow! A week in Fall River! I can’t imagine that- and in the Spring, too!

camgarsky4 · Post by **camgarsky4** » Mon May 29, 2023 2:38 pm

Reason -- how much longer before you visit FR?

Reasonwhy · Post by **Reasonwhy** » Mon May 29, 2023 5:54 pm

Was there on Wed, May 24, at the house, and the next day at the FRHS. Just back last night from our trip. Unpacking and gathering all my thoughts…will post in the next couple days