The Timeline

[Kat]

What if the timeline during murder day, given by Lizzie/and or Bridget, is wrong? Purposely wrong to cover up actions of themselves or other individuals- as in lying about what happened and when?
I’ve often wondered why we restrict our musings to the box Lizzie puts us in. Also, the timing of sightings of Andrew out and about that morning could be inaccurate, or misleading, or just accidentally wrong by a few minutes.

Do you think your suspect in the killings would still be firmly adhered to in your mind if we could actually gain about 20 minutes- or would that open a door to other possibilities?

I had a topic here a while ago called “Was Andrew Shaved?” which included his barber’s claim he shaved him that morning, but it was never testimony, never officially asked, nor answered. It could be he just wanted in on a moment of fame (Pierre Leduc); and when we see the photo of Andrew on the home-version of an autopsy board, he certainly doesn’t look shaved- and he did have a beard. We can “gain time” just by excluding the barbers claim (never proven).

There are also ways to gain time in the house that morning…things to ponder…
The LBQ is now online and Dr. Hoffman (PhD) wrote an interesting item on such a subject.
I’m including it here as a stepping stone…articles in the LBQ were not fact-checked, so if you feel like double checking his times and theory, that would be helpful. Remember, it didn’t have to happen the way he suggests (or I, for that matter), but may open up a new way of looking at the case.

The Lizzie Borden Quarterly, Vol.VIII, No 3, July, 2001, pgs 22-23:
“The Crucial 20 Minutes: A Revised Lizzie Borden Timeline,” by Paul Dennis Hoffman.

Plz clic on pic

[Kat]

2nd page
Plz click on pic

[Kat]

Dupe

[camgarsky4]

Good exercise.....poking the boundaries of the timelines will get us back to the basics of the case. I'll go back and do some reading to refresh myself on the details and post on this thread again soon.

If I'm reading Hoffman correctly, he seems to be saying that 'pear cores' were found in the barn and then speculates if they were planted.
I am surprised that a published author on the Borden's would have such basic facts wrong. To my knowledge, the first and only indication we have that Lizzie ate pears in the barn loft was Lizzie's inquest testimony almost a week after the murders. The police did not mention finding any physical evidence that pears had been eaten in the barn or outside. Maybe I'm just misreading those last couple paragraphs.

I think this is the same author who got the facts regarding Uriah Kirby, Charles Gifford, Mike the Soldier, and the sleeping man a bit muddled. If I'm wrong and forgetful, and there were pear cores discovered in the barn, someone will let me know.

Anyway, more to come on this great topic!

[Kat]

Yes, Hoffman seems to be obsessed with pears, but what I thought he was getting at, is if the authorities decided to check for pears to prove what Lizzie said, he was giving a way to account for them, outside the accepted timeline. Maybe even Morse was trying to account for pear cores in the yard to support Lizzie too, if there was a “plot.”

But I look at that as more of an example, and maybe he wanted to show how familiar he was with the case. But, you are right, there was no (that we know of) forensic emphasis put on investigating the pear cores.

I would rather there was more time spent on that “note.” But still, the only words we have about what happened in the house that day are Lizzie and Bridget. Why should we believe them?

[Reasonwhy]

Partial quote:

…I would rather there was more time spent on that “note.”

Please explain how you think an extra 20 minutes may have affected the note, Kat! I’m dying of curiosity!!

[camgarsky4]

I tend to believe Bridget's testimony during that time frame that only she and Lizzie were home with AJB. Three headline reasons for my trust in Bridget......
1) We are unaware of any reasonable motive for Bridget being actively involved in the killings.
2) We have third party verification of much of Bridget's testimony and none contradict her statements. She would not have been aware of most of the corroborating statements when she gave inquest testimony. So unless she strategically only started lying for the time between 10:45 and 11:10, then no reason not to believe what she said happened in that time slot.
3) Her testimony for the 20-30 minutes in question was very sequential and it 'flowed' naturally. It did not have the awkwardness which is inevitable when someone is blending fabrication with truth and hasn't rehearsed it much....which would have been the case if she was trying to include any untrue testimony at Lizzie's instructions. Neither lady had any idea what questions Knowlton would throw at them and to the best of our knowledge, Bridget answered all questions with confidence. This is based on Knowlton telling the Attorney General that her inquest testimony was consistent with her preliminary testimony.

I've got some of the third party validation below:

9:30ish to 10:30ish Bridget testified she was out washing the exterior windows.
Jennings Journal pg. 221 Window washing order heard by John Morse (Abby giving Bridget instructions)

Jennings Journal pg. 92 Witnessed throwing water on windows by Mary Doolan
"Saw Bridget A.M. of murder as she was getting read to wash the windows - she had a pail and brush, but didn't see her washing them. This was about 9:30 to 10 -- saw her again when I had finished washing my windows. She was just throwing water up on the windows - say about 1/2 hr. after the time I first saw her. Saw nothing more. I was up in my room 10:30 to 11 - my room is on the N. side & has a window, but I don't remember looking out. Came down around 11 and started a fire for dinner, then I went up again, and think I came down just before I saw the crowd. That is the first I saw or know about the murder."

Jenning Journal pg 77 Witnessed washing windows by Mrs. Mark P. Chace. 9:55 am on the north side parlor windows.
"I saw Bridget washing windows @ 9:55 on N side. Parlor windows. She had pail & long handled brush. Windows & blinds were closed that A.M. up & down. Dr. Kelly's work girl was washing windows at same time on S. side. "

Inquest pg 126 Mrs. Churchill saw AJB leave around 9am and Bridget washing north side windows around 10 am
Q. Did you see any other member of the household?
A. No sir. I saw the girl later washing windows.
Q. How much later was it she was out washing windows?
A. It might have been 10 o'clock. I can't tell.
Q. Washing windows on the outside?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How long would you say she was out there,that you saw her washing windows?
A. I can't tell. I stepped into my bedroom for something. I saw her throwing water up on the parlor windows.
Q. She was washing the parlor window then?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Do you remember how long before that time she had been out washing the windows, whether that week or the week before?
A. I don't think she was the windows more than once a week, and Thursday was generally that day.
Q. It was the habit to wash the windows once a week?
A. She generally did.
Q. Did you watch her wash any window besides the parlor window?
A. I did not.

Trial pg 645 George Pettee saw Bridget w/ window cleaning equipment at front of house around 10am.
Q. Did you at any time that morning see Bridget anywhere?
A. I did.
Q. About what time?
A. I should think around 10 o'clock.
Q. What was she doing?
A. She stood in front of the house, nearly opposite the front door.
Q. Did she appear to have anything with her, any implements of any kind?
A. Well, I saw the pail and the dipper and the brush. I thought she had been washing windows.
Q. Was she stationary when you saw her, or moving?
A. She was stationary.
Q. Talking with anyone or not?
A. No, sir.

We also have statements verifying that Mary Doolin and Bridget had a conversation in the 9:30ish range before either started their window washing.

Mrs. Churchill saw Andrew leaving the house via the side door around 9a.m. She specifically noted he went down the stairs towards the backyard and seemed to be looking into the back yard. It has always seemed logical to me that AJB was checking out what the unusual noise he heard coming from the backyard. This would have been the same time frame as when Bridget testified she went out to vomit in the backyard.

There are no substantive discrepancies between how Bridget describes her post-murder chats w/ Mrs. Bowen, Southard Miller or Alice Russell when she was sent by Lizzie to fetch them.

Mrs. Kelly testified that she saw the front door open after AJB rang the doorbell around 10:40am. This is consistent with Bridget's description when she let AJB in the house.

Bridget testified that AJB was carrying a small white parcel. Mrs. Kelly and others gave witness statements describing the same type of parcel.

Bridget testified that AJB invited Morse back for lunch. Morse corroborated this statement.

I can think of no instances where the third party testimony did not corroborate statements made by Bridget. Ah...there was one instance. Morse heard Abby give Bridget the instruction to wash windows after breakfast. Bridget said it was after Morse had left the house. It seems apparent that Bridget was mistaken, unless Abby gave the instructions twice.

[Kat]

Partial quote:

…I would rather there was more time spent on that “note.”

Please explain how you think an extra 20 minutes may have affected the note, Kat! I’m dying of curiosity!!

I don’t have an explanation of the note- I was hoping an academic of Hoffman’s caliber had concentrated on the note rather than the pears, in his article when he gave an example. The question is really geared toward what do you think?

Thank you camgarsky for your contribution to a timeline where someone from the house was actually seen. That is how we would start a foundation of theory filling in the rest of the time, with what might have happened in between being seen.

[Kat]

I have a usual idea of an estimated time that Andrew returned. I think it was between 10:40 and 10:45 a.m.
If Lizzie didn't help Andrew in the sitting room or ask for her mail, and Bridget wasn't washing the interior windows at all, nor took a nap, but they were lying in wait, or someone was lying in wait- and Andrew had been maneuvered onto the couch to relax much earlier (Lizzie said he didn't go upstairs), then the murder could happen by 10:45 or 10:50. It depends on whether we believe what Lizzie and Bridget tell us- if we disregard their story, anything could have happened after the front door closed behind Mr. Borden.
I’ve been reading everything on a “witness” Hyman Lubinsky who says he saw a woman, not Bridget, walking from the barn area towards the side steps of the house change his statement from 11 a.m to 10:30 a.m. IMO his testimony does not matter, sorry, because I don’t believe he could have seen anyone on that part of the dogleg between house and barn, while driving by, in the couple of seconds someone might be in his line of sight. Rebello includes a line of sight as a graphic in his book, but his measurements are from the road on the Kelly side toward the Borden barn, which is also restricted by view and by the very small time range to see. Also, there was a tree on the gate side of the Borden house in full leaf out in front. (Just for the record, I have always discounted Lubinsky).

I sort of believe Mrs Dr Kelly as to time of Andrew’s arrival home, because it fits the parameters and doesn’t interfere with that 20 -or-so minute window.
I am suspending my belief in Bridget’s version of the timing of anything, for this exercise, and certainly not believing anything Morse has to say

We know Abby's dead, and unless we think that was done before Andrew left, then we haven’t an objection to that timing.

[camgarsky4]

Based on the collection of witness statements tracing AJB's walking route that morning, I agree that his arrival time back at the house was likely in the 10:40-10:45 range. Clegg claimed he looked at the town clock when AJB left him and it was 10:30. Googlemaps has it a 6 minute walk from where Clegg and AJB talked to the Borden home. In between Andrew visited his newly rented space (Clegg was the new tenant) and possibly talked to Mr. Horton. Mrs. Kelly's testimony on the timing fits this timeline like a glove.

Lizzie and Bridget recollections of the '20-30 minute window" vary almost completely.

Points of agreement:
* Bridget let AJB in the front door.
* Lizzie asked AJB if he had mail for her.
* At some point, Bridget went up to her bedroom.

I believe that is a complete list.

Most perplexing is that Lizzie stated at the inquest that she did not see Bridget between AJB arriving home and Lizzie calling up to Bridget that her father had been killed. Didn't see her at all!

Lizzie inquest testimony:
Q. How soon after your father came in, before Maggie went up stairs?
A. I don’t know. I did not see her.
Q. Did you see her after your father came in?
A. Not after she let him in.

If this had been a collaboration, seems likely that Bridget could and would have remembered that her instructions were to say she went straight upstairs after letting AJB into the house.

Bridget's testimony of those 20-30 minutes are when we first learn of the 'note'. Per Bridget, Lizzie tells her father that Abby is out of the house due to be summoned by friend via a note. Lizzie of course, then mentions the note to Bridget minutes later in the dining room.

So for me, it seems highly unlikely these two choreographed their explanations of what happened during those 20-30 minutes. Even amateur killers would know to have matching stories or at least directionally matching stores.

[Kat]

We also need to keep in mind that Lizzie’s Inquest testimony was conducted over a 3 day period, and that Bridget went first, the first day.
Lizzie supposedly had no knowledge of what Bridget was asked, nor her responses: they were kept apart.
After her appearance, Lizzie was next, and seemed rather vague in her answers. But, the second day Lizzie added so much more detail, it’s hard to keep track.
When we read the Inquest it’s important to designate which day we are reading Lizzie’s responses- it’s very interesting to include such a detail as we study the case. It didn’t strike me, until I heard it enacted by voice actors.
It has led me to speculate that Lizzie must have consulted someone, or someones, overnight, before her next Inquest appearance - maybe Jennings at her house, her sister and/ or Morse.
Things got complicated after that.

[Kat]

And tomorrow’s Lizzie’s Big Day!

[camgarsky4]

Kat -- great insight! I never even thought to read the transcripts with the separate days in mind....I'm doing it later today!

Another potential adviser for Lizzie at that time was the hired detective (Hanscomb (sp?)).

[Kat]

Yes, about Hanscomb. And my impression has been the courts were not real strict about allowing witnesses who had not yet appeared, be in attendance. But that just might be the doctors. I’ve not made a study of that oddity.

“One’s Idea of Cordiality” is in The Hatchet, by moi: The title refers to Lizzie wondering what Bridget might have said at the Inquest about life in the Borden home…

https://lizzieandrewborden.com/HatchetO ... stand.html

[isn'tthat special1]

Can someone shed some light here? I have read that Andrew's arrival was earlier than his other days. Perhaps because he was feeling ill, but if his normal arrival would be an hour later, so more like 11:30am ish..would this not have thrown off the plan? If it was Lizzie, perhaps she is surprised he is home early and she has to rethink. (remember she told him Abby was out, so she would be caught in this lie, unless he is dead). Or perhaps, he was never the intended target. What if Abby was suppose to be only victim and Andrew's arrival, interrupted the killer's plan. So, if Lizzie is killer, dad being home sooner complicates things and she makes the choice to kill him. Think about it. Dinner served at 12pm, so if Andrew arrives at normal time, Bridget likely downstairs preparing, and Uncle John is to be returning for Dinner as well. Not ruling out that John is in on it and knows Abby is dead. But again, can someone clarify from what you have read, did Andrew arrive sooner than his historical pattern was?

[Kat]

May I ask where you read that Andrew arrived home early? We have been reading that specious legend since forever: I think it’s even in some of the old videos. My understanding is he accepted business visitors after 11 in the sitting room if need be, which would mean he was sticking to a usual schedule.
I guess we will have to find that fact: hopefully we will all look.

You’re right, he was not feeling so well, and told Lizzie he didn’t think he’d go to the post office that day when she gave him her letter to Emma to mail. But, somehow he did get out of the house, mailed the letter and completed his rounds. (He was missed on Wednesday when he didn’t go on his regular walk.)

[Kat]

A letter to get him out of the house, and a supposed note to Abbie to make it seem she was out of the house…hmmmm …both originating with Lizzie…

[camgarsky4]

And shopping suggestions to Bridget to perhaps get her out of the house......triple hmmmm.

She had a little control freak in her. I personally think it was that tendency that drove her to ask Bridget and Churchill to go look for Abby.

[camgarsky4]

Hi "That's special"! Glad you are on the forum.

I'm not sure what literature you've read on the case, but a great (ie. accurate) book that will give you a fantastic and detailed introduction to the case is "The Case Against Lizzie Borden" by William Spencer. Once you've read that book and get a solid handle on the case, you will be in a good place to dive into studying the primary source documents and contemporary newspaper articles. Without a good fact based understanding of the case, you will constantly be thrown off by myths, misunderstandings and pure fiction.

Please keep posting!

[Kat]

https://lizzieandrewborden.com/primary- ... n-case.htm
If this helps, here is link to source documents.

[Kat]

May I ask where you read that Andrew arrived home early? We have been reading that specious legend since forever: I think it’s even in some of the old videos. My understanding is he accepted business visitors after 11 in the sitting room if need be, which would mean he was sticking to a usual schedule.
I guess we will have to find that fact: hopefully we will all look.

—partial by moi

Here is the newspaper article, truncated, with Andrew’s taking business callers at home, as they come. I read it in 2 papers, but it doesn’t make it true- however we have testimony by Lizzie that men came to the door to talk business, so it’s probably accurate. If he regularly arrives home around 10:45, that gives him just enough time to prepare for callers:

FRGlobe Aug 29, 1892

….THE FAMILY THEORY.

It Is a Brief and Unsatisfactory One, But Still a Theory.

Miss Emma and Miss Lizzie Borden have a theory in regard to the murder of their parents. It is a very unsatisfactory one, but it is, nevertheless, a theory. Lizzie and Emma and Mr. Morse are absolutely certain that Lizzie did not commit the crime. They think that some strange man killed Mr. and Mrs. Borden.

They state that Mr. Borden always received his business callers between 11 and 12 o'clock in the morning. He always answered the doorbell between these hours, they say. They think that the assassin entered the house between 9 and 10 o'clock, probably, and that he came in search of Mr. Borden. The man may have wandered through rooms down stairs in search of his intended victim, and, not finding him, have gone to the upper story by the front way. Then, hearing a noise that disturbed him, he sought a hiding place in the clothes closet at the head of the stairs just opposite the entrance to Lizzie's room and near the door leading into the spare room.

This is as far as the family theory goes. The members of the household do not attempt to explain how or when Mrs. Borden was killed; neither can they offer any reason why Mr. Borden was murdered.

They say however, that they think the assassin could have got out of the house by the front door and escaped without detection.

The above may be what the members of the family think, but the theory is hardly tenable. ….”

[camgarsky4]

Thanks for finding that article....it could very well be the original source for this specific Borden legend.

There are a few other indicators that we can not assume Andrew ended his August walk around materially early.

1) Farmhand Eddy stated to police that he often would deliver fresh eggs at 11a.m. The way he stated this sure comes across that Andrew was the recipient of the eggs.
2) Andrew had invited Morse back for lunch. Fall River folks seemed to focus on noon being the time for lunch, so Andrew getting home around 11 -11:30 would seem appropriate to allow time to arrive home in advance of the noon meal. He would not want to be late with a guest coming for the meal.
3) Bridget provided extensive testimony and police statements . Never did she mention as part of her description of letting Andrew in the front door that she was taken by surprise with the timing of his arrival. Neither Bridget or Lizzie tell us that Lizzie inquired as to his early arrival home when Lizzie talked to him in the dining room. If the defense thought this was a pertinent issue, they would have probed on the topic.

All in all, the 'coming home early' theory sure 'looks and smells' like a myth created and perpetuated in the decades since the murders to try to 'retro' explain the murders.

[Reasonwhy]

…*(Reasonwhy here: I have shortened Kat’s post to just a snippet of the newspaper article; bolding and underlining are mine)*…
FRGlobe Aug 29, 1892

….THE FAMILY THEORY.

It Is a Brief and Unsatisfactory One, But Still a Theory.

Miss Emma and Miss Lizzie Borden have a theory in regard to the murder of their parents. It is a very unsatisfactory one, but it is, nevertheless, a theory. Lizzie and Emma and Mr. Morse are absolutely certain that Lizzie did not commit the crime. They think that some strange man killed Mr. and Mrs. Borden.
…. They think that the assassin entered the house….Then, hearing a noise that disturbed him, he sought a hiding place in the clothes closet at the head of the stairs just opposite the entrance to Lizzie's room and near the door leading into the spare room. ….”

Off the topic, but my reaction to the “theory” discussed in the above news article:
What a manipulation by Lizzie, at least! We know she had to unlock that clothes press for the police!!! So how could the assassin have entered there? It would have been impossible, unless the clothes press had been, on that day at least, left unlocked. But this begs the question: Why would Lizzie lock it after the crime?

What did Emma orJohn Morse know about Lizzie unlocking it for police? Were they also being false by pretending to share in this theory, or were they, too, being hoodwinked by Lizzie?

[Kat]

The person also can’t be wandering around the house and not bumping into Lizzie or Bridget. And yes, front door locked and clothes press closet as well.

Lizzie did say a man came, several times in the last few weeks, I think. And stated she heard loud voices inside the house.

Witness Statements
A Man Came” — Masterton, pg. 232. Also W.S., pg. 5: Lizzie Borden being questioned by Harrington, Thursday, Aug. 4th,

Have you any reason, no matter how slight, to suspect anybody? ‘N-n-no, I have not.’ why hesitate? ‘Well, a few weeks ago father had angry words with a man about something.’ What was it? ‘I did not know at the time, but they were both very angry at the time; and the stranger went away.’ Did you see him at all? ‘No sir they were in another room; but from the tone of their voices, I knew things were not pleasant between them . . . About two weeks ago he called again. They had a very animated conversation, during which they got very angry again. I heard Father say “no sir, I will not let my store for any such business.” Just before they separated, I heard father say “well, when you are in town again, come up, and I will let you know about it.”’

Also, pg. 2: Lizzie being questioned by John Fleet, Thurs., Aug. 4th, 1892 :

A man came here this morning about nine o’clock, I think he wanted to hire a store, talked English. I did not see him; heard father shut the door, and think the man went away.

Source, Moi:
https://lizzieandrewborden.com/suspects ... n-case.htm

[Kat]

That last statement is full of complications and possibilities.
Front door now unlocked?
What about a note being delivered?
Where is Mrs Borden?
Was this the killer let in to hide to kill?
A hint by Lizzie that a man came and might not have left?
Wasn’t Clegg English?

[camgarsky4]

Yep, Clegg was an english immigrant. I figure hearing his accent on his visit to the Borden house on Wednesday was where she got the idea to mention the english accent for a supposed Thursday morning visit.

I feel like much of her inquest testimony and statements to police to be transference of actual events to Lizzie's 'recollection' of events. Not an uncommon approach to lying. Build a lie around real events.

If someone showed up around 9am, it is difficult to match Andrew being the greeter at the front door with Bridget's testimony and frankly, Lizzie's testimony describing her movements once she came down from her bedroom. Andrew squeezed quite a bit of activity into the time between Morse's departure around 8:45 and his own departure around 9am (per Churchill). Sure seems like a stretch to believe that he also answered the front door and had an argument with someone in that same timeline.

[Kat]

While we don’t seem to have notice of an argument that morning with the man who came, we know Clegg seemed to be bugging Andrew about something…trying to talk to him whenever he could, at the least.