Poling Question: Did Abbie receive a note Aug.4 from someone outside the daily household

[Kat]

I’ve never created a poll before, but it seems important to canvas our members on this question, in case personal theories of the crime are affected by a note, or no note.
Your participation is anonymous. No one will know who you are, unless you want to post yr reason behind yr vote.
Thank you.
PS Lurkers Invited!

[camgarsky4]

Voted "No" and not "Not enough evidence of one', because to-date, there is zero evidence of a note (setting aside Lizzie's claim).

[Kat]

If any member wants to create their own poll, instructions are here:
https://lizzieandrewborden.com/LBForum/ ... p/faq#f2r3

[Kat]

Polling is still open.

[Marchesk]

No reason to think there was a note. We only have Lizzie saying there was a note, which conveniently explains why she wouldn't have thought Abby remained upstairs in the guest bedroom that morning. Although it's strange she tells Mrs. Churchill and Bridget to go look for Abby upstairs because she might have returned. Why would Abby just go upstairs upon returning? Why wouldn't Lizzie have called her down upon finding her father murdered? Why did Lizzie want them to look upstairs in the front when it was her domain and not the maid's?

If Abby returned after Lizzie discovered her father, then that would have meant the murderer was still in the house when Bridget was sent for Dr. Bowen. She would have also entered unnoticed at a time when people would likely remember seeing her, since it's right before everyone became aware of the murders. The note sounds completely fabricated, like several other things Lizzie said about that morning.

[camgarsky4]

Marchesk -- agree with your thoughts.

A minor edit.....At the inquest, Lizzie was asked where she intended Churchill and Bridget to look upstairs, she testified she meant them to check out the elder Borden bedroom. For some reason, neither Bridget nor Churchill were directly asked why they chose to go up the front stairs. My assumption has been that they both knew Abby wasn't in the back of the house since they had both gone up to get sheets to cover AJB's body just minutes before.

[Kat]

We can also keep in mind that Abbie had no key....so she could only have entered from the side steps.
Jennings Journals, FRHS
"Entry recorded by Andrew J. Jennings on paper inserted into journal:
Mrs. Dr. Bowen called & says that on the Tuesday before the murder she was walking up the street with Mrs. Borden & spoke of going over to the house & Mrs B said Lizzie wasn’t up yet she didn’t think, but Mrs Bowen had seen someone come away so knew she was & went over there with Mrs Borden – Mrs Borden said she couldn’t get in front way “for they had taken her key” so she & Mrs Bowen went in by the back door."

[Sorry if confusing, but side door is what the neighbor is calling “back door.” It is on the side of the house, not in the rear.]

[Marchesk]

I see. So Lizzie would have thought she heard Abby come back through the side door and go up to her room, but then she's found murdered in the guest room. According to Lizzie, Abby went up the stairs earlier in the morning to change a pillow case in the guest bed room, and maybe do some sewing. Which means she didn't unlock the door from her room to Lizzie's in order to take a short cut (violating Lizzie's space). So it's unlikely she would have done that after coming back home. In which case she somehow ends up dead in the guest room without Lizzie seeing her go through the downstairs to the front stair case.

It's problematic regardless of whether Lizzie meant for them to look upstairs in the front or back. When was Mrs. Borden supposed to have come home? Did Lizzie ever give an estimated time?

[Kat]

That's exactly what I was wondering when I recalled Abbie had no key. Where was Lizzie when she thought that, or when she said that?

[Reasonwhy]

Perhaps Lizzie’s motivation in saying that she thought she heard Mrs. Borden come in was not only to get the body discovered, and to bolster her story that Abby had gone out in response to the note. Maybe it was also to imply that since Lizzie had heard SOMEONE come in, if it had not been Abby, then it must have been the murderer!

[camgarsky4]

Kat & Marchesk -- I had not connected the dots about the implication of Abby having her front door key taken and Lizzie saying she heard her come home. Great observation!

If it was AJB that took her key, Lizzie might not have even known it and not realized she might have stuck her foot in her mouth with her claim of hearing Abby come home. I know Lizzie bounced around regarding her location within the house that morning, but almost impossible for Abby to have come in the side door and gone anywhere but up to Abby's bedroom without Lizzie being aware.

Hi Reason!

[Reasonwhy]

Camgarsky’s right, that is great thinking, Kat! Putting the two-and two’s together is what makes for the soundest conclusions we can reach. Wish I could take residence in your mind for a while, just pondering all you know and have put together about this case. What a generous treat you provide for us all, whenever you post. Thanks!!!

[Kat]

So nice to see you again, reasonwhy.

When it was claimed “they” took her key, I wonder who "They" were, and why?

[Kat]

Perhaps Lizzie’s motivation in saying that she thought she heard Mrs. Borden come in was not only to get the body discovered, and to bolster her story that Abby had gone out in response to the note. Maybe it was also to imply that since Lizzie had heard SOMEONE come in, if it had not been Abby, then it must have been the murderer!

Yes, and that is why we need to know where Lizzie was when she first said that, and when.

[camgarsky4]

I suppose it could be as straight forward as Andrew misplaced his key and, until he got a replacement, he borrowed Abby's. Mrs. Bowen was recalling an extremely random, brief conversation that occurred days before the interview.

[Kat]

Perhaps Lizzie’s motivation in saying that she thought she heard Mrs. Borden come in was not only to get the body discovered, and to bolster her story that Abby had gone out in response to the note. Maybe it was also to imply that since Lizzie had heard SOMEONE come in, if it had not been Abby, then it must have been the murderer!

Yes, and that is why we need to know where Lizzie was when she first said that, and when.

I found this in The Witness Statements, pg 22, Harrington talking to Bridget:
…”When I returned from Miss Russell’s, I asked Lizzie if I would go to Mrs Whitehead’s to see if Mrs Borden was there. It was then Lizzie said, no, I think I heard her come in.”

Are we any closer to where Lizzie was? Was she still at the side door, or had Mrs Churchill already come? Wasn’t Lizzie in the kitchen-back hallway area?

[Kat]

I suppose it could be as straight forward as Andrew misplaced his key and, until he got a replacement, he borrowed Abby's. Mrs. Bowen was recalling an extremely random, brief conversation that occurred days before the interview.

The conversation was 2 days before the killings, and AJB couldn’t get in the front door, either, on Thursday- Bridget had to let him in.
It started to seem like someone was controlling the doors- meaning elder Bordens had to use the side door.

[camgarsky4]

I've always interpreted that AJB needed Bridget had to unbolt the interior locks that an external key couldn't unlock. Never considered that AJB just didn't have a key at all for the front door. Verrrry interesting (channeling Artie Johnson on Rowan & Martin show)!

I need to go back and reread the related testimonies.

Just to clarify, I was meaning that Mrs. Bowen was likely interviewed by Jennings a number of days after the murders and the August 2nd actual conversation between Abby and Bowen.

[Kat]

I think Mrs Dr Kelly might be one to read abt AJB coming home. I think he had a key, but he still couldn’t get in. And now neither can Mrs. B., since at least Tuesday. But we mostly agree Mrs B didn’t go out that morning, anyway, in order to come in.

If that was done on purpose (Lizzie was supposed to unlock the door when she comes down in the morning but says she didn’t), then someone could be purposely funneling anyone who wants to enter thru one door only- the side door, since Wednesday night. That would give someone the front part of the house as guarded from spontaneous and uncontrolled entry.
. . . . . . .
I always thought it pretty odd that Mrs Dr Bowen was paying attention to Lizzie’s movements! Did she only come over to visit when Lizzie was not home?

Mrs. Dr. Bowen called & says that on the Tuesday before the murder she was walking up the street with Mrs. Borden & spoke of going over to the house & Mrs B said Lizzie wasn’t up yet she didn’t think, but Mrs Bowen had seen someone come away so knew she was & went over there with Mrs Borden-…

—Will someone plz disabuse me of this notion?

[Kat]

Perhaps Lizzie’s motivation in saying that she thought she heard Mrs. Borden come in was not only to get the body discovered, and to bolster her story that Abby had gone out in response to the note. Maybe it was also to imply that since Lizzie had heard SOMEONE come in, if it had not been Abby, then it must have been the murderer!

Yes, and that is why we need to know where Lizzie was when she first said that, and when.

This is where I pictured Lizzie when she said she thought Mrs Borden had come in-
This is the area where the kitchen, and side entry hallway meet. (No bathroom door there- plz ignore)

[Kat]

I had closed the door to the back hallway, the dining room and to the sitting room for this picture, while standing in the kitchen.
Lizzie did end up in this spot in the rocker, before she was moved to the lounge in the dining room, as people were coming and going, early into the finding of the bodies.

[Kat]

Can you believe we are still on topic?

[Marchesk]

I found this in The Witness Statements, pg 22, Harrington talking to Bridget:
…”When I returned from Miss Russell’s, I asked Lizzie if I would go to Mrs Whitehead’s to see if Mrs Borden was there. It was then Lizzie said, no, I think I heard her come in.”

Are we any closer to where Lizzie was? Was she still at the side door, or had Mrs Churchill already come? Wasn’t Lizzie in the kitchen-back hallway area?

It's a little late for Abby to have been murdered. The killer would have had to go hide in the front of the house after murdering Andrew, then kill Abby after she goes up to the guest bedroom for some reason, and then what? Is there any theory where Abby is killed after Andrew? It makes things complicated for the murderer, because now they're upstairs after Andrew has been discovered.

The Witness Statements, pg 17, Ms Churchill:

"Lizzie then said I wish somebody would go up stairs and try to find Mrs. Borden. So Bridget and I started. I think she led the way. We went up the front stairs, but I only went far enough to clear my eyes above the second floor."

So Lizzie thinks she heard Abby come home and go upstairs, but didn't see her. Now she wants someone to go upstairs to look for her. I suppose they had already tried calling for her? What is the innocent explanation for this? That Lizzie fears whoever killed her father has gone upstairs and killed Abby when she returned home? Or that the killer came back inside to finish off Abby, who was upstairs?

I don't understand Lizzie's thought process here, unless she wants the body found. If Abby has just returned home, why is she not downstairs in shock at what has happened to her husband? What is she doing upstairs in the guest bedroom?

pg. 16, Second interview of Mrs. Churchill.

“Must I, am I obliged to tell you all?” “Well, if I must, I cant be blamed. O, I wish I had not to do this. I do not like to tell anything of my
neighbor; but this is as it is. When I went over in answer to Lizzie’s call, I asked O, Lizzie where is your father? In the sitting room. Where were you? was in the barn looking for a piece of iron. Where is your mother? She had a note to go and see someone who is sick. I don't know but they killed her too.

So wait, before Lizzie even thinks she hears her step mom come home, she suspects Abby may have already been killed? What the heck? Why might she be dead if she's still out visiting a sick friend?

[camgarsky4]

Marchesk -- you call out some of the many 'glitches' in Lizzie's story and why she just had to be involved in the crime. Churchill's trial testimony nine months later was almost word for word verbatim her witness statement.

The whole thing around Lizzie thinking she heard Abby come home just isn't explainable. Did she hear her come home before her father?
That can't be because upon his arrival home, per Bridget's testimony, Lizzie told him about Abby getting a note to go visit a friend. He clearly must have asked where Abby was.

Did she hear her come home after her father had gotten home? Did she hear her come home after discovering his body?

If you think thru each of those scenarios, none of them make any sense whatsoever. And to your point, if she did think her mother was home, in what world do you call up three floors to the servant and not up zero or one floor to your 25-year-long 'mother figure' if your father has been discovered slaughtered?

Then pretend that her story does make sense.....she thought she heard her come home after her father arrived home and her first actions is to call down the servant from the attic as her first action.

Scene is set.....Bridget meets Lizzie at the bottom of the stairs. Lizzie then instructs Bridget to go fetch a doctor. And then to go fetch a friend. Somehow in that sequence of events, it didn't strike Lizzie to ask Bridget to perhaps fetch Abby? Afterall she had heard her come home.

But literally a minute or two later, when Churchill comes over, Lizzie is forced to think about Abby because Churchill asked where she was. I'm guessing Lizzie did not anticipate that question coming up so quickly, and she spits out her garbled response, "She got a note and went out. Perhaps they killed her too." A nice blend of fabrication and reality.

[Kat]

Pardon me here, but I wanted to add a couple of pertinent pictures for those who have never visited the house. They are by John Clark, but the arrows and text added are by moi. (I've been searching my computer for a view of the back stairs, night after night ) My POV is the proximity between the interior steps to the second floor, and that side door. Am using Churchill to put Lizzie there early on:

Inquest

Mrs Churchill
A. I went into the house, stepped through to the kitchen, laid my parcels on a bench which runs right across one of the south windows that looks into Mr. Borden’s back yard. At the screen door, standing by the screen door I saw Lizzie as if she was in great distress.

Q. How did she show that?

A. Perhaps she rubbed her head. I knew something was wrong, of course, by the appearance. I opened one of the south windows, one had a screen in and the other did not, I says “what is the matter Lizzie?” She said “O, Mrs. Churchill, do come over, somebody has killed Father.” I went right through the house and went out the front door and went over. When I got there she sat on the second stair which is right at the right of the screen door as you come in, the back stairs.

Q. Crying?

A. No Sir. …... etc....etc..

[Kat]

View of the stairs from the second floor. See the triangular step at the bottom curve? That is probably where Lizzie waited. It’s close to the screen door, away from the sitting room, and has a view up the stairs. It looks like a good place to huddle, while waiting, if one feels they have to stay inside.

[Kat]

However, the spot is close to the cellar door! And at Inquest Sawyer says he bolted that door:
Q. Crying?
A. I cant say that she was crying. I could not tell exactly. I did not go way into the kitchen at all [until] after that some little time. I stood near that door. You know there is quite an entryway.
(Judge Blaisdell) Which door?
A. At the door facing north, the side door with the screen and hook.
Q. You could see into the kitchen?
A. I could look into the kitchen. I could not see the whole of it, but I could see the biggest part of it.
Q. Did you go into the house?
A. I walked into the door. I kept the door locked on the inside. I walked in at the door; the cellar door, which was right close there, I bolted it. There was a bolt on the side in the entry. I did not know but from the actions around there, there might possibly be somebody in there.

[Reasonwhy]

Just to add to your photos, Kat, here are a few of those areas (click on pic to make larger): The first is at the top of those steps down to the cellar.

IMG_1811.jpeg

The second picture is that triangular step very near the side screen door.

IMG_1810.jpeg

The last is the view from the south wall of the kitchen to the side door.

IMG_1826.jpeg

[camgarsky4]

Thanks both of you for the visuals!