Suspect Line Up

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camgarsky4
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Suspect Line Up

Post by camgarsky4 »

Hi all --

I was thinking it might be an interesting exercise to systemically analyze and evaluate some of the "periphery" suspects in the case......in other words, folks besides Lizzie, Bridget, Emma or Morse. :smile:

Here are the potential suspects:
Ex-employee Carpenter
Brother-in-law Harrington
First person there, Charles Sawyer
Daughter Emma
"Wild eyed man" seen by Dr. Handy and/or Peering man seen by Mrs. Manley
Lizzie admirer Curtis I. Pierce

If we dig into each of these characters, I hope everyone participates and does a little research. After we close the book on a suspect, I'll kick start another suspect.

What suspects would anyone like to add to the list?
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Re: Suspect Line Up

Post by Marchesk »

Joseph Carpenter had been employed by Borden & Almy, but was dismissed by Andrew for embezzling $6000. Apparently, Carpenter retained a grudge against Mr. Borden. Although Joseph had moved to Albany, NY, a local Fall River barber (Pete Driscoll) claimed he shaved Carpenter the day before the murders, and a school teacher (Mr. Dean) said he saw him the day of the murders in Fall River. Additionally, a dentist in NY claimed Carpenter's wife wrote a letter to Carpenter saying that because Lizzie had been acquitted, she didn't think the authorities could do anything to him now. Andrew Jennings was very interested in Jospeh, probably as someone he could point the finger at for Lizzie's defense.

Carpenter was 37 years old at the time of the murder, meaning he was likely fit to commit the murders, assuming no disability or ill health.
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Re: Suspect Line Up

Post by Kat »

Terence Duniho wrote an article on suspect Carpenter. It may be in the LBQ. It was titled “Friends Since Boyhood” I believe, and had worked together with Harrington, to which the title refers.
Rebello probably has a blurb on him.
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Re: Suspect Line Up

Post by camgarsky4 »

Does everyone have access to Newspapers.com? The Fall River Globe July 10, 1893 Page 7 has a very lengthy and remarkably detailed article, reporting the investigation by Harrington into Carpenter's whereabouts on August 4th.

Based on the article, Harrington corroborated Carpenter's landlords sworn affidavit with establishing Carpenters whereabouts the evening of August 3rd and noon August 5th. He then spent "10 hours" pouring over all the railroad schedules to determine if Carpenter could get to Fall River and back in the time between his two appointments on the 3rd and 5th.

Harrington's report and the landlady's affidavit sure seem like items that Hilliard might have passed along in the Hilliard papers donated to the FRHS.

As we all know, the Globe was firmly convinced of and outspoken about Lizzie's guilt in the murders. This perspective comes across every clearly in the article. That said, the degree of details about police movements sure had the feel of legitimacy. Can't imagine they would have had a worthy relationship at all with the police afterwards if the article was a fraud. No local newspaper wants to become estranged with the police. Their activities make for the best local news stories.
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Re: Suspect Line Up

Post by Kat »

Thanks camgarsky!
Harrington and Carpenter were “Friends Since Boyhood.” It’s convenient to have yr good friend investigate you…
Link to Ter’s article on Carpenter in the 2001 issue of the LBQ referred to earlier:

https://archive.org/details/lizzieborde ... 8/mode/1up

It starts on page 7 and continues on page 17-20, scrolling down.
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Re: Suspect Line Up

Post by Kat »

Marchesk wrote: Tue Oct 03, 2023 11:05 pm …a local Fall River barber (Pete Driscoll) claimed he shaved Carpenter the day before the murders…
I looked for the quote in Ter’s article and compared it with this and with Knowlton Papers pg 100 cited by Terence and unfortunately the date does not jibe. Driscoll claims to have shaved Carpenter, (placing him in Fall River) “Monday August 1st.”

(Thank you for yr contribution. I didn’t knowingly fact check this, I just happen to have an eye for matching dates and continuity of context, and Knowlton Papers beside me and Ter’s article as Word doc in my computer😶)
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Re: Suspect Line Up

Post by Kat »

I think Hiram Harrington is suspicious, especially since both factions, the girls and he agree, that Mr Borden and he did not get along. That’s a long time to hold a grudge with yr only brother-in-law.
And I just noticed last night that Hiram’s workplace was on Fourth Street!
Slip over a few fences, and voila!
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Re: Suspect Line Up

Post by Kat »

I’ve always wanted feedback on this possible new motive for killing Andrew- I had posted this previously, but another line of thought took over, as happens in a topic discussion. The question has arisen about suspects in Andrew’s business community.

Quote, moi:

…Cook is a major player, even thru Lizzie's lifespan and even after her death.

Here's just something I'd been thinking about after reading the snippet about the very rich Mary Ann Borden (who in 1910 was worth our equivalent of over 4 million dollars!): who took over the guardianship of her estate, after Andrew was murdered? Could have been motive for murdering Andrew- could have been a very lucrative position! (Kind of like how Cook made out, hanging onto Lizzie all those years!)
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Re: Suspect Line Up

Post by camgarsky4 »

The following excerpt is from the Fall River Daily Evening News June 20, 1910, news article discussing some of the details of Mary Ann Borden's last will and testament.

"To Judson C. Mackenzie, who had cared for Miss Borden’s estate since the death of his sister, Miss Annie B. Mackenzie (died 1906), who was formerly Miss Borden’s assistant, the testatrix bequeaths $3,000 and the oblong framed picture of the testatrix’s father and his brothers and sisters."

Judson Mackenzie was also named the executor of Miss Mary Ann Borden's will and testament. Judson was a successful Fall River businessman. An advertisement of his businesses can be found in the 1900 Fall River city directory page 1040.

Miss Annie B. Mackenzie primary occupation is listed as "accountant" in her death certificate and she was the bookkeeper for the Fall River Daily Evening News. Annie was also the executor (vs. her businessman brother) of her father's estate upon his death in 1894. It seems that she was very highly thought of within her family and the broader Fall River community.

The newspapers published an extensive listing of Mary Ann's assets and she owned minimal real estate (relatively speaking). Her wealth was primarily via shares in local companies and promissory notes she had issued. Charles C. Cook seemed to specialize in real estate and insurance, not securities. Not a good match in skills and need.

The information available provide several solid indicators that Miss Mackenzie oversaw the financial aspects of Mary Ann Borden's estate after the death of AJB and not Charles C. Cook. At a minimum, if 'only' the bookkeeper, she would have had visibility to any financial shenanigans.

p.s. I do think Charles C. Cook was not squeaky clean and knew (aka suspected) FARRRRR more about what happened on August 4th than his testimony suggests.
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Re: Suspect Line Up

Post by Kat »

Thanks for all the info! That question has been nagging me. Mary Ann Borden’s father, Thomas, was brother to Andrew Borden’s father Abraham. So I can understand why he took over running her estate, as he was becoming a businessman. Rebello, in his book, says Andrew left his carpenter job with Miller, when he ran his cousin’s estate.

But I guess we can’t know how the Mackenzie’s took over after Andrew. I was banking on Cook (pun intended). I would think there would be some sort of relationship there, in passing that job over.

You’ve certainly gotten my attention with the phrase “promissory notes!” To me that implies loans- that someone may or may not be able to pay back. It also implies to me what I might call “creative bookkeeping.” I was thinking in terms of managing the estate for profit (people get paid well for doing that), but hadn’t thought of the possibility of hiding one’s “withdrawals-so-to-speak” for gain. That might create a different motive for killing Andrew, and hiding his (imagined for this topic) embezzlement. I don’t wish to malign the victim- we are merely *supposing* here.

Well, I would certainly trust Annie as an accountant, than anyone else, like Cook, who seems to have gotten money-grabbing at the end of Lizzie’s life. Emma was well rid of him.

We would still have to account for Abbie’s murder, under these circumstances. (pun intended)
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Re: Suspect Line Up

Post by camgarsky4 »

The estate details in the articles are amazing. They listed every promissory note. I'll make a list and post. I scrolled down the list with the same thought as you....was there a nice little smoking gun! Didn't notice one, but will look again and will also post.

Annie died around 50 years old and had a wildly long and loving article in the Daily Evening News (which was her employer). She does sound like a really special person...in fact, the Mackenzie family as a whole sound like solid, and good folk.
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Re: Suspect Line Up

Post by Kat »

Thanks, but where is the link between the families?
Maybe Annie knew Emma. Emma had a regard and respect for working ladies, who supported themselves. And Emma was guardian of Andrew’s estate, until Lizzie got out of jail.
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Re: Suspect Line Up

Post by camgarsky4 »

Sorry, I think I misunderstood. Was thinking you were wondering if it was a motive for Cook to take over the guardianship of Mary Ann Borden's estate from AJB. So was providing information that showed that the Mackenzie siblings managed her estate in the 1900's and no reason to think they didn't provide services starting after AJB's death.
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Re: Suspect Line Up

Post by Kat »

Oh absolutely it could be a motive for Cook, yes! Not misunderstood…Just giving me more food for thought, thinking aloud, so-to-speak.
But does it make sense that the Borden family handing over power on an estate like that, that maybe there was a family connection? Like between Emma/Jennings and the Mackenzie’s, or the Mackenzie’s with Mary Ann?
Last edited by Kat on Wed Oct 11, 2023 3:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Suspect Line Up

Post by Kat »

Requested to post for camgarsky, his research: (Thank you)
Plz clic on pic
*Reposted with 2 missing pieces restored
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Last edited by Kat on Thu Oct 12, 2023 12:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Suspect Line Up

Post by Kat »

BTW Cook Borden was another Uncle of Mary Ann, brother of Abraham. Maybe there’s something there?
edit: I notice Cook Borden was born 1810- this was 1910- can’t be same Cook Borden. But am looking for something like that!
Finding no other “Cook Borden” in the rest of Abraham’s brothers immediate offspring.
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Re: Suspect Line Up

Post by camgarsky4 »

Cook Borden Co. Lumber company ran an advertisement in the 1900 Fall River City Directory, page 994. The individual listing for Jerome Borden also mentions "Cook Borden Co.".

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Per several post-death articles, Mary Ann Borden's nearest relative at the time of her death were cousins. Most were left some monies in her will.

As noted earlier, Annie B. Mackenzie was Ms. Borden's administrative assistant and cared for the estate funds. Upon Annie's death, her brother took over those responsibilities. Upon Mary Ann Borden's death, the brother, Judson was named the executor of the will.

So clearly the Mackenzie's were held in the highest regard by Mary Ann Borden for whatever long-running reason. Seems to be similar to Andrew, Lizzie and Emma hiring Cook to manage the family real estate and other business dealings.

Nothing I've read indicates that Mary Ann was limited her capacity and awareness of her estate. She just appears to prefer to have an accountant (Annie) or trusted business man (aka Andrew and Judson) keep an eye on things and handle the paperwork.

As the listing of assets demonstrates, it was a relatively passive estate. The vast majority of assets were "paper" and required no active participation or oversight beyond tracking stock values.

To our knowledge, Emma and Lizzie had zero knowledge of accounting, investing or a reputation as successful business people.
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Re: Suspect Line Up

Post by Kat »

Quote, partial: To Judson C. Mackenzie, who had cared for Miss Borden’s estate since the death of his sister, Miss Annie B. Mackenzie (died 1906), who was formerly Miss Borden’s assistant, the testatrix bequeaths $3,000 and the oblong framed picture of the testatrix’s father and his brothers and sisters."

I see what you mean. I guess there was some confusion on my part due to I wasn’t of the same impression that Annie was Mary Ann’s assistant for 14 years+ overlapping Andrew’s stewardship.
I mean, I have no knowledge of it.
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Re: Suspect Line Up

Post by Kat »

Anyone interested, plz check out a reposting of the “loooong” article camgarsky found while researching Mary Ann Borden estate.
When first sent to me, there was only one piece, but since then 2 more pieces added.Thanks!
(See Wed. Oct 11, 2:56 a.m.)
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Re: Suspect Line Up

Post by camgarsky4 »

You are correct, how long Annie was Mary Ann's assistant is not clear or known. I looked for more Annie B. articles, but nothing outside of her being named executor of her father's will in 1896 and lightning hitting her brothers house (he was her neighbor) in 1898.

I would hope ( :-? ) that Cook would have an extremely high level of confidence he would get the Mary Ann Borden estate to manage if he killed the Borden's. If he did get control, he ended up losing it in a relatively short span of time. Just can't find any indicators that he did manage her estate for any period of time.
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Re: Suspect Line Up

Post by camgarsky4 »

Are there any particular suspects any poster would like us to shine the light on and provide context to support or not their possible involvement?

Happy to oblige.
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Re: Suspect Line Up

Post by CagneyBT »

In “Lizzie Didn’t Do It” by William Masterson, the author named Henry B. Palmer as a possible suspect in the Borden case. He argued that Palmer bore a striking resemblance to the “pale-faced” man seen by Dr. Handy on the morning of the murders. Palmer was a bank teller who embezzled funds from the Fall River River National Bank from Jan. 1892-March 1893. Masterson developed a theory that Andrew J. Borden learned of Palmer’s embezzling and threatened to expose him, giving Palmer a motive for murder. But Masterson concedes that there was no physical evidence linking him to the Borden case.

Masterson provides very little background about Henry B. Palmer, so I researched him. Whether he’s a viable suspect or not, Palmer’s story is quite interesting.

Henry B. (Buffinton) Palmer (1864-1950)

Henry’s father, George Ware Palmer, was a bookkeeper at the Richard Borden Mfg. Co. and later assistant bookkeeper at the Union Cotton Manufacturing Co. He was also involved in the insurance & real estate business with offices in the Troy Building & the Mason Bldg.
Fall River Daily Evening News, pg. 9 obit, March 16, 1910

Henry was employed by the Fall River National Bank as a messenger/clerk from 1883-1885. He was employed as a teller from 1886-March 1893. The assistant cashier who worked alongside Henry was Charles B. Cook. While still working at Fall River National Bank, Cook was also secretary & treasurer at the Troy Co-operative Bank. (Andrew J. Borden was then President of the Troy Co-operative Bank). In 1886, both banks were located in the same building. Fall River Daily Evening News, pg. 2 Aug 12, 1886.
(Given these circumstances, it’s more likely than not that Henry Palmer and Andrew Borden were acquainted with each other.)

Fall River Daily Evening News, pg. 2, July 22,1884: Henry traveled to Westport Harbour with five other young man from Fall River, including Edward Shove (I believe Edward was the brother of Ellen M. Shove who went on the Grand Tour with Lizzie).

Fall River Daily Evening News, pg. 2, March 16, 1885: Henry B. Palmer presented his report as treasurer of the Meh-Shway-ee Missionary Society of the First Baptist Church.

The Fall River Daily Herald, pg.1, Oct. 4, 1888: Henry married Gertrude E. Cobb, daughter of Capt. Benjamin Cobb in Fall River. They had three children.

The Fall River Daily Herald, pg. 4, March 14, 1890: Henry B. Palmer and wife attend the Masonic Ball.

During the period of 1890-1892, Palmer was involved with two fraternal endowment societies in Fall River. In Feb.1890, he was elected supreme secretary of “The Sons and Daughters of America,” and in January 1891, he was elected treasurer of “Royal Order of the Ark”. Both societies were the subject of ongoing investigations for misappropriation of funds and insurance fraud. Newspaper articles regarding both societies flooded the newspapers. The Commissoner of Insurance, George Merrill, called them “schemes.” The Aug. 1, 1891 article on page 1 of The Fall River Daily Herald goes into specific detail about the “Royal Order of the Ark.”
Fall River Daily Evening News, pg. 2, Nov. 27, 1889
Fall River Daily Evening News, pg. 8, Jan 22, 1890
(Joseph Flaherty, then Supreme Secretary of the “Sons and Daughters of America”, explains the purpose of the order. Palmer would succeed Flaherty a month later).
Fall River Daily Evening News, pg. 8, Jan. 29, 1890
The Fall River Daily Herald, pg. 1, Feb. 4, 1890
Fall River Daily Globe, pg. 4, Feb. 28, 1890;

Fall River Daily Evening News, pg. 5, Feb. 2, 1891;

Also: Fall River Globe, May 1, 1891; The Fall River Daily Herald, pg. 1, Aug. 1, 1891: Fall River Daily Herald, Oct. 13, 1892; Fall River Daily Herald, Dec. 22, 1892; Fall River Globe, Dec. 23, 1892

The Fall River Daily Globe, pg. 8, Jan. 30, 1891: A Grand Ball was held and among the attendees were “Henry Palmer and wife” and a “Miss Lizzie Borden.”

1892: Henry’s older brother, George Ware Palmer, Jr., became a highly-esteemed and renowned electrical engineer. According to a 1917 publication by The American Railway Engineering Association, “When, in 1892, the Globe Street Railway Co., of Fall River substituted electricity for horse power, he (Palmer) was made engineer of that company and has been associated with the Bay State, of which the Globe became a part, ever since.” (Andrew J. Borden was a director of the Globe Street Railway Co.)

Aug, 4,1892: The Borden murders and Dr. Handy’s description of a “very pale...exceedingly pale” strange man he saw between 10:20 am and 10:40 am on Second St. Fall River Daily Globe, Sept. 1, 1892.
(At the preliminary hearing, Handy testified that the stranger did not appear drunk, but was “oscilating” or “vascilating.” Reading his testimony from both the preliminary and the trial, it’s possible that Handy was confusing the two terms and “vascilating” is a more apt description of the man’s odd behavior. According to Webster’s, one meaning of “vacilate” is to “waver in mind, will, or feeling:hesitate in choice of opinions or courses.” Handy testified that the stranger was a “small man” between 5’3 or 5’4. He believed the man had a moustache and that Handy may have seen him at a previous time on Second St. Dr. Handy’s trial testimony can be found on page 1369 in Vol. 2 of the trial transcripts: https://lizzieandrewborden.com/wp-conte ... orden2.pdf
The Fall River Police and most sources identified Dr. Handy’s stranger as Mike “the Soldier” Graham; however, Handy never identified Graham as the stranger he saw. Handy also never described the stranger as “wild-eyed.” However, Handy repeatedly emphasized the stranger’s pale complexion.)

Alfred A. Smith, a sixteen-year old boy, claimed he found a bloody hatchet and kid gloves at 92 Second on the day of the murder. His statement appears in the Knowlton Papers. Harry Widdows posted an edited version of the statement here (scroll to middle of page): https://lizzieandrewborden.com/LBForum/ ... fred+smith

What struck me about Alfred’s testimony was 1. His place of employment and 2. the kid gloves he found.

"MASSACHUSETTS REFORMATORY
Concord, Mass., Jan. 9, 1893

Alfred A. Smith, a boy sixteen years old, son of Robert Smith, of Suffolk St. Fall River, Mass. who was sent from Fall River, Second District Court for Breaking, Entering & Larceny on Dec. 28, 1892, made the following statement to me, in the presence of Deputy Superintendent Charles Hart.

I formerly worked for the Globe Street Railway Co. Fall River, part of the time at the North barn, Bowenville and part of the time driving a lead horse on cars from City Hall, through South Main St. to Morgan St.; ........"

At this point he describes his wandering around downtown and eventually ends up on Second St.

"When I got in front of the Borden house, I saw a woman looking out of the window, as if looking up and down the street; there were lace curtains at this window, and she was moving the curtains aside with her hands; the window was not open; I have known this was the Borden house for some time. When she saw me she backed away from the window, I do not know who the woman was, she had bangs on her forehead, I think I would know her face again if I saw it.
I continued down Second St. as far as the Academy of Music, I then turned and went back, and when in front of the Borden house, I saw the same woman a little way from the same window, she was untying a bundle.
I should say the bundle was about eighteen inches long, and strong paper around it, looked as if it was cloth of some kind; saw her take out some kind of wooden handle, when she saw me she backed away from the window toward the South of the room, and I went on to Roberson's Candy store again. I bought more candy, came out of store and came down Second St. towards City Hall again, when passing the Borden house I saw lying just inside the front fence, and near to the fence on North side of lot a hatchet and a pair of kid gloves; the gloves were all covered with blood; I went in and picked up the gloves and put them in my left hand coat pocket; I picked up the hatchet the blade was well covered with blood, and there were stains of blood on the handle. I put the hatchet under my coat and buttoned it up, as I turned to come out of the yard, I saw the same woman that I saw at the window, halfway out of the door, this door was on the north side and at the east end of the Borden house, as soon as she saw me looking at her she drew in quickly and shut the door...The gloves I used to drive horse with, one of them got wore out and I threw it away, the other I think is at home in the bureau drawer, I am not sure but I think it is. The gloves were too long in the fingers and too small in the wrists for me. I think it is the left hand glove that is at home.”


Assuming Alfred’s story was true, were they women gloves... or men’s gloves? Interestingly enough, there are references in the articles below to Henry Palmer’s gloves and the size of his wrists.

The Fall River Daily Globe, pg. 8, March 21, 1893: “Teller Palmer and $6,000 Missing From The Fall River National Bank”
The alarm was sounded when Palmer failed to show up for work. The bank alerted the police to the missing money. He was described as “a young man, about 26 years of age, slight in build, with light hair and mustache and unusually pale. It is believed that his chalk-like complexion will lead to his arrest, as it is sure to attract attention now that the alarm has been given.” It was noted that he had few intimate friends, that he occasionally purchased drinks at barrooms (frowned upon behavior for bank tellers at the time) and that he was known to dabble in stocks and gamble, usually occurring significant losses. “The culprit is well-connected in this city and had all the advantages which his friends could give him. To them, his downfall is as unexpected as it is humiliating.”

The Fall River Daily Herald, pg. 8, March 21, 1893: described Palmer as “28 years old, 5’9”, square-shouldered but not stout; blue eyes, light hair, light mustache and sallow complexion. He always appeared neatly and quietly dressed.” The article also notes that Palmer, “had been more or less prominent in the best social circles previous to his marriage, after that he withdrew almost entirely from society and seemed to be devoted to home life, rarely appearing in public festivities.” There was a report that the Troy Co-operative Bank funds had been tampered with but “that report was pronounced to be groundless.” People who knew him thought him “odd” that he did not choose male associates and preferred to travel alone.” Also, he had been seen at unusual hours in the third ward of the city, and, only a few days before fleeing, he had asked a friend for a $5,000 loan, which was declined.
(This article reports that Palmer was 5’9. Dr. Handy described the stranger he saw as “small,” between 5’3” and 5’4.” I couldn’t find any other references to Palmer’s actual height. However, while researching Palmer’s immediate family, I came across a couple of references that made me question his reported height. First, Henry’s older brother, George W. Palmer, Jr., electrical engineer for the Globe St. Railway Co., was described as “a small man physically, but a large man mentally.” Fall River Daily Evening News, “Carmen Await Board Decision.” May 24, 1915, pg. 7.
Also, Henry Palmer’s son, Henry Palmer, Jr., was unusually small in height. An article in the Fall River Daily Globe, Nov. 3, 1903 under “High School Notes” reports, “Henry Palmer of Rm. 3, the smallest pupil that ever entered High school and a member of the cadets accompanied the team to Newport yesterday as mascot. He was dressed in a little rugby suit that looked as though it was made for a five-year older.” Family genetics suggest that Henry Palmer may have been a smaller man than reported.)

The Boston Herald, pg. 10, Mar 22, 1893: “The Directors of the Troy Co-operative Bank, which does business in the rooms of the Fall River National Bank, held a meeting tonight and discovered that their funds had not undergone any change by the departure of Henry P. Palmer, the missing teller of the national bank. Palmer was employed as a receiver for the Co-operative bank on deposit nights.”

The Fall River Daily Herald, pg. 8, March 22, 1893: “There are stories abroad to the effect that he (Palmer) was not a model husband and father, and people who have encountered the young man in dark streets in the south part of the city late at night were inclined to say that they had suspected this to be the case, and would not be surprised if the final revelation of the affair brought a woman into the light.” Palmer is also described as “a young man of bright prospects who has yielded to temptation.”

The Fall River Daily Evening News, pg. 1, April 17, 1893: After apparently fleeing to St. Louis, Palmer contacted his father and made arrangements to surrender in Fall River, where he was promptly arrested by Marshall Fleet. His father, George W. Palmer, retained Andrew J. Jennings as his attorney. He was arraigned the same day and entered a plea of not guilty. As to his appearance, he had shaved off his mustache and his hair had been cut short. “He was neatly, even stylishly dressed, and sat quietly through the session with his eyes cast down and his face partially hidden by his gloved hand... The pallor which has always been noticeable about his face has been emphasized by worry, if not hardship, during the past week and would have assisted more than ever in his detection.”
Palmer had embezzled $6,000. However, he was only charged with embezzling $2,000, the amount known to be missing at the time the bank reported it but before the investigation of the books was complete. The missing $2,000 had been stolen in January 1892, and was the first evidence of embezzlement. The theft continued over a period of at least a year, eventually totally $6,000. (Obviously, Andrew J. Borden was still alive and active in Fall River banking circles from Jan-Aug. 1892).

The Fall River Daily Globe, pg. 7, April 17, 1893: He was accompanied by his father and brother. (George W. Palmer, Jr.). “All sorts of stories as to his family relations and former conduct were soon flying around, and it was concluded that he had been tampering with the possibilities of acquiring wealth through the medium of the bucket shops.” (Note: According to Investopedia, “bucket shops” became common in the late 1800s, when the spread of new communications technologies, such as the telegraph, made it possible to speculate on stock prices in a timely manner. Bucket shops emerged to let clients gamble on stock prices in the same way that they might otherwise bet on racehorses,)
“Young Palmer appeared in a light spring overcoat, neat suit of clothes, and very elegant kid gloves. He did not deem it necessary to remove his gloves and coat while in the dock. His face was destitute of a mustache and had the same pallor which characterized it before his departure.” His “coolness and self-possession” was noted, and he seemed unperturbed by the number of police officers and newspaper reporters that were present. He even chatted pleasantly with the officer who handcuffed him; it was noted that the handcuff was too large for Palmer’s wrist. He was taken by private hack to the depot en route to Taunton to await trial.

The Fall River Daily Herald, pg. 8, April 17, 1893: It was reported that “all the time he was in court, he rested his head on his gloved hand, and the broken little finger which has been one of the marks about him which could not be disguised and which the detectives underlined in their description of him was easy to be noticed...Palmer sat among the prisoners in the dock and his stylish clothes and gloved hands made the contrast between him and his companions very strong...When he was taken into the guard room he didn’t mind the staring of the men around him and joked with the officer about the handcuffs that were being placed on him. The cuffs were by far too small for the officer and a little too large for Palmer’s delicate hand..when he emerged handcuffed to the officer, he was as cool and collected as if he were going through a grand march in a ball room...he was by far the coolest prisoner that has stepped from the guard room in many a day.”

Fall River Globe, pg. 8, April 18, 1893: “Palmer in Taunton Jail” It was believed that Palmer would be able to post the $5,000 bail, but that wasn’t the case. According to a police officer who conversed with Palmer after his hearing, Palmer stated that “he did not care whether he got bonds or not. In fact, his indifference to his position was just a little out of the commonplace, and the officer was heard to comment thereon.” Palmer declined to speak to the press on the advice of his attorney Jennings and had “resolved to rest his fate in his lawyer’s judgment.” He met with his minister who asked him where he’d been. Palmer replied, “I have concluded to say nothing. Ask my father, he will perhaps inform you.” The police believed that, as a fugitive, Palmer was hidden in the city by his friends, and that Jennings had advised his friends that the best course for Palmer to take was to surrender and go to trial.

The Fall River Daily Herald, pg. 1, May 25, 1893: “No Long Delay In Shipping Palmer Off to Jail – May Be Pardoned...The speed with which Henry B. Palmer was found out, tried, and punished, is a marvel to many minds in town today. His case came up in the circuit court in Boston. He had kept his stealings very quiet, and when he left town he also kept his whereabouts unknown. He is young and five years imprisonment is likely to satisfy the purposes of the law. It is the feeling about town that Palmer will be pardoned if he can bear up under four years of prison life, and so he will not lose his citizenship. The news of the sentencing came unexpectedly to many people, although it was quite generally known that he had been indicted.”

Fall River Daily Evening News, pg. 7, July 10, 1895: “Seeking A Pardon. A petition is in circulation asking for the pardon of Henry B. Palmer, the defaulting teller of the Fall River National Bank. One of the largest stockholders in the bank heads the petition. Palmer is at the Massachusetts reformatory at Concord, and has served about half his sentence.”

The Fall River Daily Herald, pg. 7, May 25, 1896: On May 24, 1893, Palmer pleaded guilty and was sentenced to the minimum of 5 years at Concord State Prison. Both the judge who sentenced him and the U.S. District Attorney were in favor of a pardon based on Palmer’s “open and frank confession, his previous excellent character, his manly and exemplary conduct in prison, his sincere contrition, the condition of his family, and in the belief that he intends to deserve a renewal of the confidence of the community.” After serving three years, Palmer was granted the requested pardon by President Cleveland. “It is understood that Palmer has proved himself to be of much assistance to the prison officials in caring for their books and has enjoyed special privileges of late. Within a month he has visited his former home in this city to make arrangements to move his household to Concord, where he will be permanently employed at the reformatory.”

After a few years in Concord, Palmer returned to Fall River where he was employed as bookkeeper at Cobb & Reed, a grocery store on South Main St., co-owned by his father-in-law, Capt. Benjamin Cobb.

Fall River Globe, pg. 7, Dec. 18, 1902: Bertha Dean Cobb weds George W. Bowen. Bertha Cobb was Henry Palmer’s sister-in-law. George W. Bowen was employed as a bookkeeper for John Crowe, the building contractor of “Crowe’s yard/barn” fame in the Borden case. George Bowen was administrator of Crowe’s estate when he died in 1927. He was also a pallbearer at Crowe’s funeral.

Fall River Daily Evening News, pg. 4, November 15, 1906: Attendance at the Women’s Union Bazaar. Participants included Mrs. George W. Palmer, Jr.; Caroline A. Palmer (Henry’s sister); Mrs. George S. Brigham (Lizzie’s dear friend); Miss Anna H. Borden (Lizzie’s friend and Grand Tour companion); and Dora Sowle (Eudora...housekeeper & nurse to Hiram C. Harrington).

A few other interesting facts related to Henry:

1. Emma testified at Lizzie’s trial that Lizzie owned two shares of Fall River National Bank stock.
2. George W. Palmer Jr.’s son wrote a biography of his father that was published in 1972. It appears to be out-of-print. Perhaps it contains additional information about his uncle, Henry.
3. Henry’s uncle, Henry S. Buffinton, was a trustee in the Five Cents Savings Bank in Fall River. Fall River Daily Evening News (obit), pg. 1, May 3, 1895. (Charles J. Holmes, Lizzie’s ardent supporter, was treasurer).

Henry B. Palmer and his family later moved to Somerville, MA and then to Weymouth where he died in July 1950 at age 86.

In his book, Masterson concluded his summary on Palmer by relating a story about Andrew J. Jennings. In 1894, Jennings gave an interview to the Fall River Daily Herald stating that he had pursued a clue in the summer of 1893 that he thought might solve the Borden case, but the clue led nowhere. Masterson wondered if the clue was related to Palmer...maybe he confided something to Jennings or maybe Jennings noted the resemblance between Palmer and Dr. Handy’s pale-faced man.

Comments are welcome. Thanks!
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Re: Suspect Line Up

Post by camgarsky4 »

Cagney -- still reading, processing and researching.

But not clear on why Masterson thought the AJB/Palmer connection was outside of the First National Bank and the Troy Coop being in the same building? Feeling that connection is relatively reasonable will be key to this theory having traction.
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Re: Suspect Line Up

Post by CagneyBT »

HI Camgarsky! :smile:

I'm not quite understanding your comment re: First National Bank. Do you mean The Fall River National Bank?

As far as I know, Masterson didn’t make the connection that the Fall River National Bank and the Troy Co-operative Bank shared offices in the same building. I found that out through my own research. The Troy Co-operative Bank relocated to the Fall River National Bank building in 1886, where Palmer was employed and when AJB was still bank president at the Co-operative. There is the Boston Herald article, March 23 1893, (cited in my post) that the Troy Co-operative Bank conducted business in the rooms of the Fall River National Bank. That same article also reported that “Palmer was employed as a receiver for the Co-operative Bank on deposit nights.” The directors of the Co-operative did an examination of the books after Palmer fled.

I was attempting to establish whether Henry Palmer and AJB could have personally known each other. Evidence suggests that they did, at least in bank dealings. Working within the same offices, it’s quite possible that they interacted frequently. Please bear in mind that this is purely supposition on my part.

On pg. 227 of Masterson’s book, he writes...”Andrew Borden was in a good position to detect Palmer’s thefts and call him on account, perhaps even blackmail him. Certainly Andrew frequently deposited large amounts of money in all the major banks of Fall River, including Palmer’s. His deposits came not only from his own funds but from those of the mills and real estate holdings in which he had a controlling interest. All in all, Andrew must have had many opportunities to come across discrepancies in Palmer’s accounts. Moreover, Andrew Borden was suspicious by nature, always on the lookout for fraud that threatened his financial interests.”
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Re: Suspect Line Up

Post by camgarsky4 »

Mr. Palmer certainly has provided us with an interesting tale. Thanks again Cagney for 'airing' this episode out for us.

Based on the newspaper articles Cagney provides and a couple more I found, It is indisputable that Henry Palmer Jr. was noticeably of a very short stature. Frankly, I think he was likely even shorter than 5-2 or 5-3. Since the average height for a male in 1900 was around 5'7ish, not sure 5-2/3 would be strikingly noticeable, but Henry Jr's height was called out on multiple occasions.

That said, there is a potential non-genetic cause of the 'diminutive' stature of Henry B. Palmer, Jr.
Henry B. Palmer & Gertrude E. Cobb married October 3, 1888.
Henry B. Palmer, Jr born April 14, 1889.
Time delta between marriage and birth….6 months and 11 days.
Henry Jr. was either conceived out of wedlock or he was born several months premature. Studies I googled are suggestive that premature birth might cause physical developmental issues, or at a minimum cause the body to take longer to grow to full height. I am admittedly beyond my 'natural' knowledge base on this medical stuff, but throwing out this possibility.

Fun little 'hero' story for our Henry Jr. in the snippet below from the Fall River Globe August 11, 1908.
Screenshot 2023-10-17 222829.png
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Re: Suspect Line Up

Post by CagneyBT »

I think it's more likely that Gertrude was three months along at the time of her marriage. Premature infants probably had a slim-none chance of survivial in 1889.

Great story about young Henry...quite the adventurous and brave little soul (no pun intended). :wink:

The Capt. Cobb referenced in the article is his grandfather. He was a naval Civil War veteran and tug boat operator who died at age 91. His obituary and photo appeared on page 1 of the Fall River Herald News on Oct. 22, 1930.

Henry Jr. died in 1928 in Brooklyn, NY at age 39. His obituary appeared in the Fall River Herald News on March 15, 1928.
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Re: Suspect Line Up

Post by camgarsky4 »

I bought the Knowlton Papers book almost immediately after becoming interested in this case and the Alfred A. Smith statement Cagney posted was always the most intriguing document in the book. I tried and tried to make it make sense and be the key to unlocking the murder. I failed.

Cagney has compiled a series of newspaper articles that weave together Alfred's story, the Handy sighting and the Palmer bank theft to create an fascinating trail leading to Henry B. Palmer as a potential suspect. She has made a much more compelling case for Palmer than the author Masterson.

Here are some questions arising from Alfred's story that we can try to work thru to help evaluate Mr. Palmer's candidacy.....

1) Which window was the woman (I'm assuming one of the first floor parlor windows)? And regardless of which window, how could he see what was in the package she was holding (see 1950's photo below of people standing in front of windows)? Reason -- you were just there...what do you think about seeing what someone was holding if they were in the parlor? How close to the floor were the bottom of the parlor windows (approximately)?
2) Why would the murderer do the deed and then carry the bloody items outside, just to drop in the front yard?
3) Was the woman involved in the murder? Does his story suggest both an external and internal co-conspirator? Could Palmer have conspired w/ Lizzie or Bridget?
4) Was the woman Lizzie, Abby or Bridget?
5) Did Alfred make it a habit to snatch items that were in folks front yards? It is odd that the woman (who presumably lives in the house) exits the side door (15-20 feet from where Alfred stood) and it was the woman who bolted and not Alfred who was stealing stuff from the property.
6) Can't tell what time of day Alfred went back and forth in front of the Borden house, but as we know from the many statements and testimonies, that street had activity all day. Surprising that if Alfred's story is true, that absolutely no one saw him. I tried to make Mrs. Manley's story fit, but it doesn't. Bridget was around the outside of that house from 9:30ish to 10:20ish. She was spotted outside by multiple witnesses.

Lastly, I quickly searched the Fall River 1892 city directory and couldn't find a Roberson's Candy shop. A Academy of Music was located on the Borden Block. Ad pasted below.

Couple of photographs of front of Borden house copied from the Virtual Library website.
Screenshot 2023-10-18 190413.png
Screenshot 2023-10-18 185928.png
Copied from Cagney's post above.....
Alfred A. Smith, a boy sixteen years old, son of Robert Smith, of Suffolk St. Fall River, Mass. who was sent from Fall River, Second District Court for Breaking, Entering & Larceny on Dec. 28, 1892, made the following statement to me, in the presence of Deputy Superintendent Charles Hart.

I formerly worked for the Globe Street Railway Co. Fall River, part of the time at the North barn, Bowenville and part of the time driving a lead horse on cars from City Hall, through South Main St. to Morgan St.; ........"

At this point he describes his wandering around downtown and eventually ends up on Second St.

"When I got in front of the Borden house, I saw a woman looking out of the window, as if looking up and down the street; there were lace curtains at this window, and she was moving the curtains aside with her hands; the window was not open; I have known this was the Borden house for some time. When she saw me she backed away from the window, I do not know who the woman was, she had bangs on her forehead, I think I would know her face again if I saw it.
I continued down Second St. as far as the Academy of Music, I then turned and went back, and when in front of the Borden house, I saw the same woman a little way from the same window, she was untying a bundle.
I should say the bundle was about eighteen inches long, and strong paper around it, looked as if it was cloth of some kind; saw her take out some kind of wooden handle, when she saw me she backed away from the window toward the South of the room, and I went on to Roberson's Candy store again. I bought more candy, came out of store and came down Second St. towards City Hall again, when passing the Borden house I saw lying just inside the front fence, and near to the fence on North side of lot a hatchet and a pair of kid gloves; the gloves were all covered with blood; I went in and picked up the gloves and put them in my left hand coat pocket; I picked up the hatchet the blade was well covered with blood, and there were stains of blood on the handle. I put the hatchet under my coat and buttoned it up, as I turned to come out of the yard, I saw the same woman that I saw at the window, halfway out of the door, this door was on the north side and at the east end of the Borden house, as soon as she saw me looking at her she drew in quickly and shut the door...The gloves I used to drive horse with, one of them got wore out and I threw it away, the other I think is at home in the bureau drawer, I am not sure but I think it is. The gloves were too long in the fingers and too small in the wrists for me. I think it is the left hand glove that is at home.”
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Re: Suspect Line Up

Post by CagneyBT »

Wow, Camagarsky! Thank you so much for the kind words about my post. :smile: I'm very flattered, but I simply worked with the material that Masterson provided in his book and expanded the research. My curiosity simply got the better of me :smile:

Re: The candy store Alfred referred to in his statement is listed in the 1893 Fall River City Directory under “Confectionary, Fruit, Etc.”.... John Robinson, 112 Second (manuf.)
The Fall River Globe, pg. 7, July 14, 1892, reported a robbery at his candy store.

Re: Alfred and the kid gloves he found. Alfred said he wore the gloves at work, driving his horse. Would a 15 year old boy be caught dead wearing LADIES gloves?

More about Alfred:
Fall River Daily Evening News, pg. 1, Dec. 23, 1892: “In the juvenile court yesterday afternoon Alfred H. Smith and Andrew Carr, two boys , each 15 years of age, were charged with breaking and entering the building of Arthur R. Smith and larceny of a toy bank and 46 cents. The boys come from Bowenville, where they have built up a pretty hard reputation. They are known to have been connected with several small breaks, and when captured, one of them had in his possession a skeleton key which the officers found by experiment would work ordinary locks.”

The Fall River Daily Herald, pg. 6, Dec. 27, 1892: “In the juvenile court, Alfred A. Smith and Andrew B. Carr were sentenced to the Massachusetts reformatory.” (Henry B. Palmer and Alfred would have been incarcerated at Concord reformatory during the same period.)

Alfred’s father, Robert Smith, was born in England and “was known all over the city as a vendor of muffins and oat cakes.” Fall River Daily Herald, obit, pg. 8, March 28, 1895.

Fall River Evening News, pg. 4., April 1, 1895. “Tribute to the Late Robert Smith.” Robert Smith was an employer in the cotton industry in Burnley, England but was financially ruined there. He came to America and settled in Fall River in 1870 where he was active in politics and was a member of the city council. “In life he was always a supporter of every movement calculated to improve the moral and social condition of the people.”

In 1899, Alfred A. Smith, age 22, married in Fall River, worked as an operative in the local mills, and raised a family. He died in May 1936 at age 59. Fall River Herald News, pg. 2, May 15, 1936.
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Re: Suspect Line Up

Post by Kat »

This parlor window inside is about “top of thigh high” to me, and I’m 5’2”. In a previous post near a time of my visit to the house, I remarked that the windows are 7 ft high off the ground on the outside. So add 2 and 1/2 feet to 7 and we get about 10 feet to the bottom of the parlor window outside. If there were screens in the windows that darkens the view of the interior.
(That is Len, Marylou and Moi)
Here’s another, with someone standing
Aug06_Trip 099.jpeg
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Re: Suspect Line Up

Post by Kat »

And I think Bridget was only actually seen outside by persons unrelated to the household, twice: consistently by Kelly’s maid for duration of conversation, and then quick glimpse by Mrs Churchill in front by front door (long slim windows called “lights” either side of door) on one there.
I will look this up, tho. Just sticking in some info from yr list camgarsky.

Edit here: it was parlor window, singular. Sorry.

Inquest
Churchill
127

Q. How long should you say she was out there, that you saw her washing windows?
A.. I cant tell. I stepped into my bed room for something, I saw her throwing water up on to the parlor window.
Q. She was washing the parlor window then?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Do you remember how long before that time she had been out washing the windows, whether that same week, or the week before?
A. I dont think she washed windows but once a week, and Thursday was generally the day.
Q. It was the habit to wash the windows once a week?
A. She generally did.
Q. Did you see her wash any other window beside the parlor window?
A. No Sir.
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Re: Suspect Line Up

Post by Kat »

Edit
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Re: Suspect Line Up

Post by camgarsky4 »

Besides Mrs. Churchill, there were at least three other people who made statements that they saw Bridget washing the windows that morning. One of them saw her on two separate occasions.

Mrs. Chace saw Bridget washing windows 9:55 a.m.
Jennings Journals page 77.
Mrs. Mark P. Chace, entry recorded by Arthur S. Phillips
"Morning of murder I saw Bridget washing windows @ 9:55 on N side. Parlor Windows. She had pail & long handled brush. Windows & blinds were closed that AM up & down. I was going to Rock Pt in 11 boat went out of here @ 9:55. It struck 10 as I passed Mrs. Tripp's. Dr Kelly's work girl was washing windows at same time on S. Side. Just commencing on front part of house. Blinds were closed........."

Does Mrs. Chace noting that the front windows (presumably the parlor windows) had closed blinds contradict our young Arthur, at least for the time around 10a.m. I presume 'blinds' are different than the external shutters?

Mary Doolan, Kelly maid, saw her twice outside.
Jennings Journals page 92, entry recorded by Arthur S. Phillips
"Saw Bridget AM of murder a she was getting ready to wash the windows - she had a pail and brush, but didn't see her washing them. This was about 9:30 to 10 -- saw her again when I had finished washing my windows. She was just throwing water on the windows -- say about 1/2 hr. after the time I first saw her........"

It fits the known facts that Mary is referencing when she chatted w/ Bridget with her initial sighting of Bridget above. The second sighting would have been a separate episode and confirmation of Bridget spending most of the hour between 9:20 and 10:20 outside of the Borden house washing the windows. With the Kelly house on the south side of the Borden home, it seems logical that Mary saw her rinsing the south side sitting room windows or the front (west) parlor window.

George Petty. testified at the Trial (page 645 of the transcripts) that he saw Bridget standing stationery outside around 10a.m. He saw her with the pail, dipper and brush and presumed she had been washing the windows. She was 'opposite the front door', so I presume that means she was close to the northwest corner of the front, or where the folks are standing in the 1950's photo posted above.
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Re: Suspect Line Up

Post by Reasonwhy »

IMG_1680.jpeg
camgarsky4 wrote: Wed Oct 18, 2023 6:28 pm I bought the Knowlton Papers book almost immediately after becoming interested in this case and the Alfred A. Smith statement Cagney posted was always the most intriguing document in the book.

Here are some questions arising from Alfred's story that we can try to work thru to help evaluate Mr. Palmer's candidacy.....

1) Which window was the woman (I'm assuming one of the first floor parlor windows)? And regardless of which window, how could he see what was in the package she was holding (see 1950's photo below of people standing in front of windows)? Reason -- you were just there...what do you think about seeing what someone was holding if they were in the parlor? How close to the floor were the bottom of the parlor windows (approximately)?

….

Hi Camgarsky,

Here are the photos I took relevant to your question (from outside the house). I will include more in my next post.

The first photo is my view, about six inches away from one of the first floor windows (sitting room window). I’m 5’5”, I was right next to the house, and I could not see into any of the windows; they are too far up from the ground. Had I stood further away, however, I might have been able to see inside, providing the light was good, and the lace curtains had many cutouts or were lighter weight and fairly diaphanous. During the mid-morning, when Alfred claims he saw into the parlor window, light would not be as strong as in the afternoon, because the parlor windows face west. But on that relatively hot August 4th day, presumably the sun might have been fairly bright (do we know?). I do think it is possible that he could have seen into that room, depending on how much distance he had to give perspective.
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Re: Suspect Line Up

Post by Reasonwhy »

IMG_1708.jpeg
IMG_1714.jpeg
IMG_1715.jpeg
In the top photo here, the young couple who toured the house with us were standing on the sidewalk at the foot of the steps to the front door. Had Alfred been in that position, I do think he could have seen into the parlor to at least some extent. What do others think?

The other two photos are inside the parlor, but they’re not as helpful to your question (of how high the windows were from the floor) as the photos Kat posted.
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Re: Suspect Line Up

Post by camgarsky4 »

Reason -- thanks for the pics! That helps so much with visualizing.

Please be nice about my artwork (below) while I continue to experiment with adding visuals. :-?

The snippet below is from a 1895 Fall River city map. The blue star at the bottom is located at 112 Second St. (Roberson Confectioners), the middle blue star is the Borden house and the top blue star is the Academy of Music.
Screenshot 2023-10-21 195125.png
Regarding Arthur's statement. Per Google maps it is a 2 minute walk from the Borden's to Roberson's Candy shop. Randomly presuming Arthur spent 10-15 minutes shopping for candy, that would mean a total of 15-20 minutes passed from him seeing the lady w/ the package to him finding the bloody hatchet & kid gloves. Assuming Abby was killed at 9:30, for Arthur's hatchet to have killed her, he must have walked by the house around 9:15-9:30 He then goes shopping for candy and finds the bloody hatchet around 9:30-9:45. What was used to kill AJB a full hour later?

That seems like a really long period of time for Arthur to have mentally condensed, especially after he was so very detailed about most of his journey that morning.

Excerpt from Arthur Smith's statement copied from Cagney's post above.
I continued down Second St. as far as the Academy of Music, I then turned and went back, and when in front of the Borden house, I saw the same woman a little way from the same window, she was untying a bundle.
I should say the bundle was about eighteen inches long, and strong paper around it, looked as if it was cloth of some kind; saw her take out some kind of wooden handle, when she saw me she backed away from the window toward the South of the room, and I went on to Roberson's Candy store again . I bought more candy, came out of store and came down Second St. towards City Hall again, when passing the Borden house I saw lying just inside the front fence, and near to the fence on North side of lot a hatchet and a pair of kid gloves;
the gloves were all covered with blood; I went in and picked up the gloves and put them in my left hand coat pocket; I picked up the hatchet the blade was well covered with blood, and there were stains of blood on the handle. I put the hatchet under my coat and buttoned it up, as I turned to come out of the yard, I saw the same woman that I saw at the window, halfway out of the door, this door was on the north side and at the east end of the Borden house, as soon as she saw me looking at her she drew in quickly and shut the door..
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Re: Suspect Line Up

Post by Kat »

Oh good, camgarsky, thanks for the extra sightings of Bridget from JJ. I have been using testimony only all this time.
Thanks for the pics reasonwhy!
Beg to differ with everyone tho, Abbie was killed about 9 a.m.
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Re: Suspect Line Up

Post by camgarsky4 »

Kat -- I agree with you that the death of Abby was closer to 9am than 9:30. I used 'more accepted' times above to make the point about the incongruity of Arthur's story and the timing of the killings without being 'controversial' about the actual time of Abby's death.

I strongly suspect Abby was killed immediately after AJB left the house and Bridget was out back doing her thing.
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Re: Suspect Line Up

Post by CagneyBT »

Camgarsky--, the link I provided to Alfred Smith’s statement was copied from an older, edited post. I referred to it in reference to the kid gloves and a possible link to Henry Palmer.

In the unedited statement in the Knowlton Papers, Alfred’s movements before arriving at Second St. sheds light on the timing of the events leading to the sighting of the woman in the window and discovery of the hatchet and gloves.

In the unedited version, Alfred begins his statement by outlining his duties at the North barn in Bowenville. After leaving the barn, his first stop was to Stanton Brothers Shoe Store at 253 S. Main.

Near the end of his statement, Alfred was asked:

Question: What time did you leave the barn to go up to Stanton Bros.?
Answer: I should say it was 10 a.m.


So, according to Alfred, he left the barn at 10:00 a.m. and took a horse car on Main St. to City Hall. He got off there and stopped at Stanton Brothers on S. Main to look for tennis lawn shoes.

How long did he have to wait for the horse car? And how long did he spend at Stanton Bros.? It’s now after 10:00 a.m.

His next stop was to Robinson’s candy store. (112 Second St). He then continued down Second St. where he had his first sighting of the woman in the window.

He continued walking in the direction of Second St. toward the Academy of Music (Academy Building, 68-114 South Main Street) before turning back to Second St. where he had a second sighting of the same woman in the window untying a bundle.

Next, Alfred went back to Robinson’s candy store and purchased more candy. Leaving Robinson’s, he continued on Second St. toward City Hall when he found the bloody hatchet and gloves in the Borden yard. He had his third sighting of the woman ducking back inside after spotting Alfred.

Alfred stated that he kept the gloves and used them for work until one wore out; the other glove he thought was in a bureau drawer at home. He kept the hatchet for about three weeks before selling it to Thomas Connors “who keeps a little store near Fulton St. School” (corner of Wellington & Fulton) for 10 cents worth of candy. (Thomas J. Connor, storekeeper, 12 Wellington, death certificate, Feb. 13, 1905).

Was there any investigations into Alfred’s claims? In Forty Whacks, David Kent makes reference to Alfred (pg 82-83) and states that the second glove that Alfred claims he kept in a bureau drawer was not found there. Kent gives no source for this.

Was Thomas J. Connor ever questioned about purchasing a hatchet? What about employees at Stanton Brothers or at Robinson’s candy store?

When asked why he didn’t report finding a bloody hatchet and gloves, Alfred responded that he was afraid to do so. He said he thought the items were left by a carpenter who’d cut himself. Perhaps he thought he’d be accused of theft for stealing property from the Borden yard. He must have been aware he was stealing as he states that after hiding the items in his coat, “I ran out of the yard and down Second St.” Maybe he was afraid he’d be implicated in the murders during a botched robbery attempt. After all, he was imprisoned for “Breaking, Entering and Larceny.”

As we know, there were no witnesses to anyone running out of the Borden yard and down Second St. at that time. But Second St. was a busy thoroughfare. August 4 started out as any other ordinary summer morning. People weren’t out and about looking for suspicious activity in the neighborhood, and a boy running down the street may not attract much, if any, notice.

Based on his criminal record, young Alfred certainly has some credibility issues (not to mention an enormous sweet tooth!). But unless proven otherwise, I don’t think we can completely dismiss the statement out of hand.

This is a somewhat related note from an article about the Globe St. Railway. Alfred may have been employed there as a “pony boy.”
“As they did for brewery and cotton freight wagons, Fall River's hills posed a problem for the horse-drawn trolleys. On the city's steepest grades, the normal two-horse hitch was doubled at the start of the uphill leg. The company employed a waiting "Pony Boy" who, after hitching the two additional horses at the foot of the hill, would ride to the top, unhitch his pair, and walk them back down the hill to await the next car.”
https://www.southcoasttoday.com/story/n ... 571750007/
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Re: Suspect Line Up

Post by camgarsky4 »

Sorry, that was lazy of me not to go back to the original document in Knowlton Papers to read the unedited version.

I think we can attempt to give the story a 'reasonableness test'.

Assuming AJB was killed at 11:00 - 11:05 by Lizzie. Lizzie goes to the sink room and washes off her face and hands. Grabs the hatchet and gloves and runs out and puts next to fence. She goes back into house (possibly seen at this point by Lubinsky) and calls up to Bridget. While she waits for Bridget to come down, Lizzie opens screen door and starts to go out, spots the boy by the fence and goes back into the house. Bridget scurries out of the house a couple minutes later to fetch Dr. Bowen and the rest is history.

If the Lubinsky testimony is accurate and truthful, seems like Alfred and Hiram would have been standing in almost the same spot at the same time.

We've all sliced and diced the minutes between 10:40 and 11:15...there just aren't many minutes to work with.

Why would Lizzie (or whomever) have taken the murder weapon out to the fence where any passer by could see it?

I would think that he saw the lady in the parlor after AJB got home and Mrs. Kelly had already passed by the house. So that could have been Lizzie in the parlor after she talked to AJB in the dining room about the note and if she got any mail. She unwrapped the hatchet. Set it down in the parlor. Walked into the dining room and chatted w/ Bridget. Saw Bridget going up the stairs and she hurried back to the parlor (last Bridget saw her she was headed into the dining room) to get the hatchet and then went into action.

Everyone poke, edit and improve this interpretation. When we are done, we can vote on reasonableness.
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Re: Suspect Line Up

Post by CagneyBT »

I was curious if Alfred’s statement had any validity whatsoever or was consistent with other sources.

Caroline Kelly estimated that she saw Andrew at the front door at approx.10:40.
Mrs. Kelly also testified that she saw no one on the Churchill steps or in the Borden yard. She didn’t notice any unusual activity. Alfred also stated that he saw no one on the steps when he passed the house, but may have noticed a grocery team outside Wade’s store.

Alfred referred to lace curtains in the Borden window where he saw the woman. He said the window was closed. There was also a question of whether Alfred could have seen into the house from the sidewalk.

Bridget’s testimony regarding the windows: (Kat & Reasonwhy, thank you for the great visuals!)

Q. What were you doing in the kitchen?
A. Oh, I was cleaning off my stove and putting things in their places, and so forth, and when I got ready I went in in the dining-room and sitting-room and left down the windows which I was going to wash, and went down cellar and got a pail for to take some water.
Q. Then you say you went in the dining-room and sitting-room and left down the windows?
A. Yes.
Q. And what did you do to them, exactly?
A. Well, the windows was up, and I left down the windows.
Q. Shut them up?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you shut the windows in both rooms?
A. Yes, sir; there was a window up in both the rooms.
Q. Were the curtains up or down in the rooms?
A. There was no curtains there.
Q. Were the shutters closed or open?
A. They was open at the bottom, I remember.
Q. Did you change their position at the time you shut the windows---the position of the shutters?
A. No, sir; I don't think I did.
Q. Up to the time when you shut the windows on the outside in those two rooms had you in any way closed the shutters of the dining-room and the sitting-room?
A. No, sir; I don't think I did.

Q. How many windows on the front of the house, of the parlor windows, did you wash?
A. Two.
Q. That is all there were?
A. There is three windows in the parlor, but there are two in the front.
Q. Had you been into the parlor to do anything that morning?
A. No, sir.
(Assuming Abby was dead, the only other woman who could have been seen in the palor window was Lizzie).

Q. Were the blinds of the parlor open or closed?
A. Closed.
Q. To wash them of course you had to open the blinds?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were the shutters in the parlor opened or closed?
A. There was curtains for the inside of the parlor.
Q. And these curtains, were how?
A. I don't remember how they were.
Q. You don't remember whether the curtains were up or down?
A. No, sir, I do not.


(The palor window was located on the north side of the Borden house, close to the Churchill house).

From Alfred’s statement:
"When I got in front of the Borden house, I saw a woman looking out of the window, as if looking up and down the street; there were lace curtains at this window, and she was moving the curtains aside with her hands; the window was not open; I have known this was the Borden house for some time. When she saw me she backed away from the window, I do not know who the woman was, she had bangs on her forehead, I think I would know her face again if I saw it. I continued down Second St. as far as the Academy of Music, I then turned and went back, and when in front of the Borden house, I saw the same woman a little way from the same window, she was untying a bundle.”

Bridget’s testimony regarding the windows:

Q. You were washing; you went in and shut the windows in the sitting room?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the dining room?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you do not know how you did leave the shutters in there, or the curtains?
A. Well, I didn't disturb the shutters or the curtains. The upper shutters were shut, I know they were, and the lower shutters I didn't disturb them; they was partly open, I suppose,---I can't tell; but I let down the windows.
Q. Really, you don't know; you put the windows down, but how you left the lower part of the shutters you don't know?
A. Well, I know they was open a little.
Q. What is that?
A. I know they were partly open.
Q. They were partly open?
A. Yes, sir

Lizzie made one reference to the palor window at the inquest:
Q. Did you say anything to Maggie? A. I did not. Q. Did you say anything about washing the windows? A. No sir. Q. Did you speak to her? A. I think I told her I did not want any breakfast. Q. You do not remember of talking about washing the windows? A. I don't remember whether I did or not; I don't remember it. Yes, I remember; yes, I asked her to shut the parlor blinds when she got through, because the sun was so hot. (Why was Lizzie so concerned about the palor blinds if the palor was usually kept closed?)

Bridget’s testimony re: whether it was possible to see inside from the street:

Q. When you walk along on the north side of the house on the walk,---you know where I mean, coming from the street in---
A. Yes, sir, I know what you mean.
Q. ---how high is the window-seat of the dining-room? How does it come with reference to your body or your head?
A. I don't know. It is quite high, I think.
Q. Can't see in, can you?
A. I can't see, except anybody had been at the window I could see them, I guess.
Q. And as you are walking in along there from the street and going into the back door, the window-seats are up so high and the walk so low that you can't see unless a person is right up to the window?
A. I think so. I don't remember how it was


Bridget’s testimony regarding Lizzie’s whereabouts after discovering Andrew’s body:

Q. Did you say anything to her at that time or she to you?
A. I went around to go right in the sitting-room and she says, "Oh, Maggie, don't go in. I have got to have a doctor quick. Go over. I have got to have the doctor." So I went over to Dr. Bowen's right away, and when I came back I says, "Miss Lizzie, where was you?" I says, "Didn't I leave the screen door hooked?" She says, "I was out in the back yard and heard a groan, and came in and the screen door was wide open."

From Alfred’s statement:
“I put the hatchet under my coat and buttoned it up, as I turned to come out of the yard, I saw the same woman that I saw at the window, halfway out of the door, this door was on the north side and at the east end of the Borden house, as soon as she saw me looking at her she drew in quickly and shut the door.”

Assuming that Alfred was telling the truth...

Did the killer accidentally drop the hatchet and gloves while fleeing? Was the woman Alfred allegedly saw ducking back into the house trying to retrieve them before being spotted? Did Lizzie have an accomplice?
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Re: Suspect Line Up

Post by camgarsky4 »

When Bridget describes lower and upper shutters being open or closed, not sure what she is referencing. The pics below show that the external shutters were one unit per side.....no upper or lower. Is what Bridget calls a blind and a shutter referencing the same interior window cover? Doesn't make sense to me, but not sure how else to interpret her testimony.

Bridget testimony from Cagney post above:
Q. Were the blinds of the parlor open or closed?
A. Closed.
Q. To wash them of course you had to open the blinds?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were the shutters in the parlor opened or closed?
A. There was curtains for the inside of the parlor.
Q. And these curtains, were how?
A. I don't remember how they were

Q. And you do not know how you did leave the shutters in there, or the curtains?
A. Well, I didn't disturb the shutters or the curtains. The upper shutters were shut, I know they were, and the lower shutters I didn't disturb them; they was partly open, I suppose,---I can't tell; but I let down the windows.


Screenshot 2023-10-25 214026.png
Screenshot 2023-10-25 212940.png
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Kat
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Re: Suspect Line Up

Post by Kat »

Jan 9, 1893 is the date of this “statement.”
The way it was written sounds nothing like a larcenist teenager’s comments- even the candy festish seems contrived. We have no info on the writer, “C. Hammond” or “I C Hammond.”
It reminds me of the Nellie McHenry interference in the case with Bridget as a “source.”

Just to be clear, tho, Bridget never went into the parlor to wash the inside of the windows, right?
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Re: Suspect Line Up

Post by CagneyBT »

Kat, I also questioned the validity of the statement. I couldn’t find any credible sources that either debunked or verified it, so curiosity led me to do further research. If you have any concrete information that can set the record straight, please share it. I genuinely respect your knowledge about the Borden case. If I’ve gone down a rabbit hole here, so be it. I’ll own it and move on.

Here’s a link that may solve the mystery of “C. Hammond” at the end of Alfred's statement:

https://www.yesteryearstools.com/Yester ... C.%29.html

The notation may have been made by Knowlton.

I also never stated that Bridget washed the inside palor windows. Her testimony that I posted clearly indicates she washed the outside palor windows, as well as the sitting room & dining room windows, inside & out.
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Re: Suspect Line Up

Post by Reasonwhy »

Camgarsky, I found this post of Susan’s helpful, as I had been confused by blinds/shutters, also:

camgarsky4 wrote: Wed Oct 25, 2023 8:44 pm When Bridget describes lower and upper shutters being open or closed, not sure what she is referencing. The pics below show that the external shutters were one unit per side.....no upper or lower. Is what Bridget calls a blind and a shutter referencing the same interior window cover? Doesn't make sense to me, but not sure how else to interpret her testimony.

Bridget testimony from Cagney post above:
Q. Were the blinds of the parlor open or closed?
A. Closed.
Q. To wash them of course you had to open the blinds?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were the shutters in the parlor opened or closed?
A. There was curtains for the inside of the parlor.
Q. And these curtains, were how?
A. I don't remember how they were

Q. And you do not know how you did leave the shutters in there, or the curtains?
A. Well, I didn't disturb the shutters or the curtains. The upper shutters were shut, I know they were, and the lower shutters I didn't disturb them; they was partly open, I suppose,---I can't tell; but I let down the windows.



Screenshot 2023-10-25 214026.png

Screenshot 2023-10-25 212940.png


Susan wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2005 7:28 pm This definition sounds like the way Bridget was using the word "blinds":

"A window blind is a covering for a window, usually attached to the interior side of a window. It simply refers to some device to hide from sight (thus "blind"ing the viewer) or to reduce sunlight."

I think if Bridget was to refer to interior blinds like we have today, she would call them Venetian blinds to differentiate.

"A window shutter is something like a door for a window, usually made of a sturdy material and often louvered, whose original purpose was to protect windows or the interior of a building from extreme weather conditions. In many modern residential constructions, decorative shutters are attached to either side of windows strictly for visual appeal."

From this site: http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/shutters

It appears that the louvers (horizontal slats) on the exterior shutters of the Borden's house were moveable, at least on the back of the house. If you look at this pic closely, you can see some of the closed shutters appear to be missing their louvers, they are opened.

Image

I can't see if the shutters have a verticle bar on the louvers to control their movement, but, imagine they are there.

Image

I don't know about the interior shutters in the Borden home except for the ones in the guest room which were solid panels, no louvers. Boy, that house must have been dark with all those shutters! :roll:
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Re: Suspect Line Up

Post by Reasonwhy »

By the way, Susan’s post, above, is from the thread “Sitting Room Windows.”
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Kat
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Re: Suspect Line Up

Post by Kat »

CagneyBT wrote: Thu Oct 26, 2023 1:42 am Kat, I also questioned the validity of the statement. I couldn’t find any credible sources that either debunked or verified it, so curiosity led me to do further research. If you have any concrete information that can set the record straight, please share it. I genuinely respect your knowledge about the Borden case. If I’ve gone down a rabbit hole here, so be it. I’ll own it and move on.

Here’s a link that may solve the mystery of “C. Hammond” at the end of Alfred's statement:

https://www.yesteryearstools.com/Yester ... C.%29.html

The notation may have been made by Knowlton.

I also never stated that Bridget washed the inside palor windows. Her testimony that I posted clearly indicates she washed the outside palor windows, as well as the sitting room & dining room windows, inside & out.
Oh, yr research is impeccable and very welcome. I also understand you are not making any claims, but rather providing material that may be pertinent so we can make up our own minds.
Very well done of you and we are grateful for it. Who knew this angle had so many twists and turns, is educational, and entertaining. My assessment describing a seemingly contrived story (from Knowlton Papers) only referred to the letter and its content and language.

My comment about the parlor was for my own understanding- I personally wanted to be clear in my mind (after all the info presented) that Bridget did not enter the parlor. I had always thought that to be the case, and so far that hasn’t changed- just reassuring myself about that. But also I thought it was odd to wash the outside windows of that room, and not the inside. To me that means there was a restriction in place on who could go into or use that room, even to the point of a family member cleaning the interior of the windows. Odd.

And thanks for the advert : the letter signed by C. Hammond includes underneath:
Phila.
Cast Steel.
- so you obviously found the right entity!
You are so good at what you do, you should be paid! We’re lucky to have you! Thank you.
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Re: Suspect Line Up

Post by CagneyBT »

Kat, thanks so much for the nice feedback. It's much appreciated. :smile:

The Borden case sure does have its twists and turns, doesn't it? To quote Churchill (Winston, not Adelaide) ""It's a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma." The fascination for me is finding the smallest clue that can lead to so many other avenues to explore.
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Re: Suspect Line Up

Post by Kat »

:grin: You're hired!

Here's part of that horrible story that letter reminds me of: It's the hooded person in the guest room window, and the whole travesty was cooked up by the McHenrys. That's why I'm referring to dates of things--lots of swindling going on in the papers. This Smith delinquent could have been following the papers and concocted his own story for attention-seeking, or maybe a plea deal...

I hate to add it here, even in partial status...but plz all of our readers be aware this is bogus, and the newspaper had to print an apology-the people didn't even exist. This tampering with the case was just before the grand jury was slated to sit in judgement.

Partial ...
Evening Standard
Monday, October 10, 1892 Page 3

BORDEN MURDER.

Motive for the Crime Given
to the Public.

Lizzie's Secret Was Discovered
By Her Father.

Startling Testimony of Twenty-
Five New Witnesses.

Miss Borden Said to Have Been
Seen at Window

Of the Room Where Her Stepmother
Was Killed.

Her Head Was Enveloped In
A Rubber Cap.

Quarrel Of The Sisters in
Police Station Detailed.

Detective McHenry's Story of How
the Case was Worked Up.

The Boston Globe to-day prints what purports to be a complete revelation of the government case against Miss Lizzie A. Borden. The Globe says besides those who testified for the government in the preliminary examination of Lizzie A. Borden before Judge Blaisdell fully 25 new witnesses will be called by the State at the trial of the defendant for murder in December.

Briefly stated, the results of the Globe's investigation is as follows: John H. Murphy, who resides on Bedford street, Fall River, will testify that he was standing on the sidewalk close to the Borden house when Mr. Borden entered his yard, about 10:40 o'clock on the morning of Aug. 4, and he saw him a minute or two later ushered into the house by Bridget Sullivan. Mr. Murphy will swear that while Mr. Borden was walking in the yard he saw a window blind of the room in which Mrs. Borden's body was afterwards found cautiously opened by a young woman, who had that same morning told him, when he called at the Borden house about 9:30 o'clock, that her "father" had gone down town and would not be back until noon or later. This woman he has identified as the defendant, Lizzie A. Borden.

The window Mr. Murphy designates as the one in which he saw Miss Lizzie is so situated that she must have been standing over the mutilated remains of her mother at the very time that her father was about to enter the house, between 10:30 and 10:45 o'clock.

The next witness of importance is Mrs. Gustave F. Ronald, whose husband is a well-known civil engineer, and whose home during the winter is at Pawtucket, R. I. She and her husband were guests at the Wilbur House at the time of the murder. About 9:30 o'clock on the morning of Aug. 4 she went out with her baby in its carriage for a walk. She wheeled the little one up Second street and stopped under the big trees near the Borden house about 20 minutes of 10 o'clock. A minute later she heard a terrible cry or groan and began looking around to see whence it came. She looked up at the Borden house and saw in a room through a partially open window a woman whose head was in part covered by a rubber cap or hood, and whose face she saw plainly, as the distance was short. This window she has designated to the authorities, and it is the one nearest to the murdered woman as she lay in the guest chamber of her home when found by the police.

Mrs. Ronald was almost that minute approached by Mr. Peter Mahany of 103 Pleasant street, Fall River, who is time-keeper in the Troy mill. He likewise had heard the groan, seen the woman at the window, who wore the peculiar head covering, and recognized her as the younger daughter of the Borden family, all members of which he knew quite well by sight. The window that he designates as the one in which he saw Miss Lizzie was the same as that pointed out by Mrs. Ronald.

Augustus Gunning, who now resides at 308 Plainfield street, Johnsonville, R. I., near Providence, was at that time a lodger in Mrs. Churchill's house, and he too about 10 o'clock on the morning of Aug. 4, saw Lizzie Borden in the window of the guest chamber with a dark-colored garment on and a hood of similar color covering her head. As he looked across she seemed to be engaged in cleaning, but upon seeing him stepped aside from the window.

These witnesses fix Miss Borden at her mother's side almost at the minute when she probably was killed, and when Miss Lizzie, according to her own statement, was elsewhere. ...


--I created the text in brown to represent s_ _ _. :wink:

--I had been reading camgarsky's new topic about the druggist's baseball team, saw the name Gunning, and was reminded of this story...
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Re: Suspect Line Up

Post by Kat »

Sorry to jump over you reasonwhy- I do remember the confusion over blinds and shutters and such and Bridget's odd obfuscating utterances. :wink:
It's really a good idea to do a Forum search and you are good at it...Stef does a Forum search (she told me) when she needs to, in her work :peanut16: It saves duplication of effort, which is smart.
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Re: Suspect Line Up

Post by camgarsky4 »

Agree Kat, Bridget made it abundantly clear that she has ZERO responsibility in the parlor and I don't believe ever referenced throughout the case that she entered that room. Maybe that was one of the rooms that Abby hired extra help to clean?

I remember the parlor was the cause of my first and only 'debate' with Twins back a few years.....that the parlor (vs. the tiny closet by the stairs) was a legitimate location for someone to have stayed out of sight that morning and not be seen. Albeit risky since it seems like all the furniture was up against walls, so no where to hide if anyone did go into the parlor. If Lizzie had an accomplice, that is a possible place for her to have the person hide.
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