Bring back my Emma to me....

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 1:28 am

Thanks Susan! If a telegram was 30cents and 5 years ago it was a quarter to make an instate toll call, sounds like the phone was always expensive!

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:24 am

You're welcome, Kat. In 1894, AT&T took over Bell which marked the end of the Bell monopoly and high pricing. Weird, I always think of AT&T as something of our era! I was reading that in some areas that phone service went down to like $10 a year, that was probably when most people began to get phones in their homes. I imagine with more people using telephones, the telegraph/telegram pricing had to go down to compete.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 4:06 am

Doesn't AT&T stand for American Telephone and Telegraph?

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 11:01 pm

Yes, you are correct.

FairhavenGuy · Post by **FairhavenGuy** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 10:43 am

I understand that today, because "telegraph" is so outdated, the official name of the company is simply AT&T, with the letters not standing for anything. I think that KFC is that way, too, now, because they no longer wanted to be associated with "fried" foods.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 1:09 pm

I've been reading alot of newspaper reports lately, trying to find more of the human interest stories to the case rather than just sticking to the bare bones of the facts in the source material. It helps me to see the Borden family more as real people, and not just as some figures in long ago history. I would also like to gain some kind of insight into their personalities if at all possible. I've come across a few things that stuck in my mind and made me wonder.

The Fall River Herald unknown date but listed in the SourceBook on page 49.

Did Andrew J. Borden, after living almost to the period allotted to man, have a presentiment that he would suddenly be taken ill or meet death?
The remark he made to his daughter Emma just before she left home to go to Fairhaven indicates that he had something on his mind, for he was never known to make a statement before like he did.

Notwithstanding the numerous times they have been away from home, he said: "Emma, if I should want you immediately while you are away, where shall I find you?" His inquiry had a pronounced affect on his daughter, and she inquired why he asked the question. He remarked: "Nothing in particular, only I feel that I would like to know in case anything should happen." Emma gave him the required information, and he apparently felt much better for it. This is a peculiar fact in view of the terrible tragedy.

john · Post by **john** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:07 pm

So what do you think happened tha killing day, Allen?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 5:50 pm

Thanks for the transcription, Allen. I'm reading lots of newspapers right now too.

I have read that item before and I think it's made up- schmaltz- based maybe on some long-lost kernal or nugget of info. I can't see Emma leaving to be away the whole summer, without telling Andrew where she was going. It's just realistic. But that's just my opinion.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 5:54 pm

Kat @ Mon Apr 04, 2005 5:50 pm wrote: I can't see Emma leaving to be away the whole summer, without telling Andrew where she was going. It's just realistic. But that's just my opinion.

Where does it say she will be gone a whole summer? It just says before she left to go to Fairhaven, where in fact she did go, and was contacted there on the day of the murders.And where can I reach you may mean, where can I reach you in Fairhaven? Did he know where the residence she was staying was located?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 6:17 pm

I don't know where I read "the whole summer."
I've been reading way too much on the subject lately to be able to tell you that, sorry.
You can subtract the phrase if you want.
It's still reasonable to me that Emma would give her information to her father as to where she would be staying, in case any of her stock dividends paid out?

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 9:08 pm

Heaven forbid she not be able to be reached for that Kat.

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 9:54 pm

I just can not even imagine anyone not telling the people they lived with their itinerary if they were to be away for 2 days or 2 months!

By all accounts Emma was not a gadabout, traveling all the time-- so her leaving must have been somewhat of an event.

Although I have never thought about it before, I think Kat has a good point!

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 10:10 pm

Audrey @ Mon Apr 04, 2005 9:54 pm wrote:I just can not even imagine anyone not telling the people they lived with their itinerary if they were to be away for 2 days or 2 months!

By all accounts Emma was not a gadabout, traveling all the time-- so her leaving must have been somewhat of an event.

Although I have never thought about it before, I think Kat has a good point!

So the whole time she was staying at her friends home, she is supposed to have stayed in the house and never made any plans to go out?

Nancie · Post by **Nancie** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 10:10 pm

Kat must be in LOVE or something!

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 10:17 pm

Pour l'amour de DIEU!!!

That is NOT what I meant at all....

IMO the original "reference" was made to indicate that Andrew wanted to know where Emma was STAYING not a demand that she account for her every move...

I always let my mother know when I am going to be out of town for a few days or away on a trip, etc. I certainly do not make a Trans-Atlantic call to let her know I am heading down to the BK for a Whopper (hold the mayo) with onion rings and a Sprite.

FairhavenGuy · Post by **FairhavenGuy** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 10:21 pm

The fact that Emma planned to stay the whole summer in Fairhaven is, I think, in a New Bedford Standard article in which the reporter interviews Mrs. Brownell. The article has been reproduced here previously, but I can't find it now and my transcript of it is on my other computer.

Nancie · Post by **Nancie** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 10:29 pm

I don't think they had cell phones back then, it
is not unheard of to be out of touch.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 10:45 pm

Maybe I should've elaborated on my post since it seems to have frustrated Audrey so. I forget when I post I know what I have in mind when I ask a question, but maybe everyone else doesn't. This frustrates my husband as well. When she went to stay with her friends, was it inconceivable that they may have made plans to take a trip visiting friends together? Or maybe went to stay a few days elsewhere, like a cottage at the beach? If she were there the whole summer, which it did not state in the article I read, but Fairhaven guy was kind enough to provide the information that seemed to be the case, then it might be likely they could have decided to engage in some extended trips away from the house. So he would've been able to reach her immediately if she had plans to stay only at the house, but what if she and her friends made plans? I was not talking about her going down to the local BK for a Whopper (hold the mayo) with onion rings and a Sprite.

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 11:04 pm

I think if she were to leave the home she was staying in for a day or two at the sea or somewhere else-- Her family in F.R. would either already know or she would have let them know...

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 11:21 pm

Audrey @ Mon Apr 04, 2005 11:04 pm wrote:I think if she were to leave the home she was staying in for a day or two at the sea or somewhere else-- Her family in F.R. would either already know or she would have let them know...

I let my husband know where I'm going to be staying when I go away for a few days, but I don't write out a detailed itinerary of the daily happenings before I leave and follow it to the letter once I get there. I'm a 31 year old woman for crying out loud, I'm not 12. What I don't understand is why quotes that are attributed to people in the papers back then are so often labeled as being made up. We really don't have all the evidence to say they are not real quotes.

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 11:24 pm

If you were to be going to stay in another place overnight you would not let him know?

I think we are misunderstanding one another.

I do not think Emma would have let Andrew know here whereabouts each minute-- But if she was going to be gone for an overnight she would have.

I took the original statement attributed to Andrew to mean that he wanted to know where Emma was "living" not where she would be each moment of the day.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 11:30 pm

I just gave my private opinion and labled it as such. Don't mean to frustrate anybody. It sounds like pure melodrama to me, is all. Anyone can believe what they want. I'm proofing the Trickey/McHenry story right now so I am extra cynical, maybe? (But I always thought this about that snippet- maybe you can change my mind?)

wintressanna · Post by **wintressanna** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 1:51 am

well the quote is about where she can be found, I interpret that to mean where she can be reached if needed, which does not imply that she would need to give a detailed itinerary but state the methods by which and where she can be reached. And if i remember correctly, there was a senior, possibly frail woman in the party at Fairhaven, so perhaps a grand tour of the area would have been unlikely? Pure speculation..cause they might have gone anyway with or without her, but still that would be a consideration. And I expect Emma may naturally want to make this information known to her father, but that is not something that everyone or anyone no matter what time period we are speaking of, would do.

FairhavenGuy · Post by **FairhavenGuy** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 7:52 am

Got it!

New Bedford EVENING STANDARD, August 25, 1892

From Yesterday’s Third Edition.

LIZZIE BORDEN’S LETTER.

Emma’s Friends in Fairhaven
Seen This Afternoon.

Mrs. Allen Brownell No Recollection
Of the Circumstance Related.

The Missive May Have Been Shown
To Her Daughter.

Immediately upon the receipt of news from the Standard’s special correspondent in Fall River in relation to the singular experience of Lizzie Borden as related by her at the inquest, given on the first page, a Standard reporter called at the residence of Mrs. Allen Brownell on Green street, where Emma Borden was on a visit to Miss Helen Brownell, a daughter of Mrs. Brownell above named. Unfortunately Miss Brownell was not in town, and when the newspaper man stated that he had called for the purpose of ascertaining as to the truth of the alleged statement of Miss Borden that she had shown such a letter to her friends in Fairhaven, Mrs. Brownell said she could not say whether she had or not. She certainly had not shown such a letter to her, and she could not say whether Emma had shown such a letter to her daughter or not. She remembered that Miss Borden had had several letters during her visit, but could not remember whether she received one the day previous to the murder or not.

When asked if her daughter would not have been likely to have mentioned the fact if such a letter had been shown, Mrs. Brownell replied, “Yes, I think she would.”

In speaking of the tragedy, Mrs. Brownell did not hesitate to speak strongly in support of Lizzie’s innocence. She said that both of the girls always spoke in endearing terms of their father. Emma, she stated, had intended to remain in Fairhaven all Summer.

Sorry if you've all seen this before.

Wordweaver · Post by **Wordweaver** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 7:58 am

FairhavenGuy @ Tue Apr 05, 2005 4:52 am wrote: In speaking of the tragedy, Mrs. Brownell did not hesitate to speak strongly in support of Lizzie’s innocence. She said that both of the girls always spoke in endearing terms of their father.[/color] Emma, she stated, had intended to remain in Fairhaven all Summer.

I like what was *not* said: the terms in which they spoke of their stepmother. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but this does strike me as a significant omission.

Thanks so much for posting this, FairhavenGuy! I really appreciate your willingness to share these articles.

Lynn

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 1:34 pm

Thanks Chris!
We are now in a position which might confuse some people. Meaning, which news items do we believe and which don't we believe. It's a good thing that Allen posted that snippet from The Sourcebook, because her question basically is : Is this true?
Here is an example of where we can throw it on the table, look at it, and decide if we think it was true or not. It's like a group reading the newspaper and discussing the contents. We all know we don't all believe everything we read in the papers!

It's a good idea to gain a good foundation in the case and then if we throw news articles up for discussion, common sense and experienced members can help determine if a story is plausible, if someone's asking.
A person then can make up their own mind, but they will get opinions.

doug65oh · Post by **doug65oh** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 2:36 pm

I know what you mean, Lynn. It makes me think of an old saying:

"Speak Thee well and hide disdain
To'ard the grand olde driver of the gravy train!"

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 3:05 pm

Yes, thanks for posting that FairhavenGuy. It seems she did intended to spend the whole summer. There are so many interviews listed in these newspapers. I just have to wonder, how in the world do you sift through it all?I've been trying to use the papers to gain more of a more human interest perspective on the characters of this case. I want to try and get an idea of what they may have been like in life, which goes beyond the "facts" of this case. I can't learn that by just reading the trial transcripts and such, because they really do not provide alot of insight into who they were. But it's frustrating. It's like sifting through a pile of sand to find a grain of salt.

wintressanna · Post by **wintressanna** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 2:06 am

I wonder two things...

1. Where was Helen at the time the reporter called?

2. What all this mail Emma received was about, and by whom was it written?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 2:07 am

Harry and I are working away on newspapers right now too. He is always telling me they can give some insight into the personalities, and also enjoys the behind-the-scenes-look at the trial. Where else are we going to get that?

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 6:40 pm

Kat @ Tue Mar 29, 2005 4:06 am wrote:Doesn't AT&T stand for American Telephone and Telegraph?

From what is says in Lizzie's probate records, she owned stock in AT&T.
Maybe she figured it had done her such a service in the past it was best to take stock in it.

Lizzie Borden's probate records I found on the LAB site.

"Gain on sale of American Tel. & Tel. 19.43"

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 9:04 pm

Cool find, Melissa! I don't know why, but, I never noticed that particular download on the site before? Thanks for drawing my attention to it, very interesting read.

Liz Crouthers · Post by **Liz Crouthers** » Mon May 09, 2005 4:57 pm

I think the police over looked Emma's alibi she really could have done it.

john · Post by **john** » Mon May 09, 2005 7:42 pm

That's pretty interesting, Liz, but how could Emma have done it?
She had motive.
She had questionable means.
If Mrs. Borden saw her at attack, when she was supposed to be out of town, Mrs. Borden would have made lots of noise which maybe wouldn't be heard, but probably Mrs. could have overpowered frail Emma in a fight.
Mrs. Borden was hit firstly from the front, and I don't see how a sneak up style would have worked. I told Kat what I thought happened in the guest room a long time ago and she's never mentioned it. Ask her.

Liz Crouthers · Post by **Liz Crouthers** » Mon May 09, 2005 7:58 pm

Emma has more to her than looks and I will.

john · Post by **john** » Mon May 09, 2005 8:12 pm

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Mon May 09, 2005 8:33 pm

I think the police over looked Emma's alibi she really could have done it.

Overlooked Emma's alibi ?? Are you saying Emma was not in Fairhaven ? How do YOU think Emma could have done it ?

Tracy...

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon May 09, 2005 9:17 pm

john, you may have thought you told me something but you never did.
I've never received any message from you ever.

I hadn't thought about *frail Emma* possibly being overpowered by a larger Abby. I think that's probably a sound assumption.
Unless Emma was a maniac with extra strength.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Mon May 09, 2005 9:22 pm

I am not sure that Emma was all that 'frail'. Besides, I am thinking that if she were in a position to be 'overpowered by a larger Abby', that her hatred of her stepmother would have made up for any frailties.

Tracy...

Liz Crouthers · Post by **Liz Crouthers** » Mon May 09, 2005 9:50 pm

I sure she was not that frail

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon May 09, 2005 11:37 pm

I don't think it matters though if she was frail. If she incited someone else to kill, which I think she did, even if just over time, her physique would not enter into it.
I think I get a frail image (not my word) because of the description Dr. Handy made of the *pale-faced* man he spotted who he thought he recognized. If that was Emma in men's clothes, then that's where I got the picture in my mind. That man was rather small, for a man, that is.
I don't think we even know her height?

doug65oh · Post by **doug65oh** » Tue May 10, 2005 12:52 am

For some reason I've always had the impression that Emma was not more than an inch taller than Lizzie, something near 5'5"....

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue May 10, 2005 1:26 am

I had the impression she was shorter. I guess we should check any descriptions of her in the newspapers?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue May 10, 2005 2:38 pm

I checked for 40 minutes last night but didn't come up with anything yet. I was reading Rebello's book and the Evening Standard paper for descriptions of Emma.

Liz Crouthers · Post by **Liz Crouthers** » Tue May 10, 2005 6:22 pm

Lizzie is about 5/4 or 5/5 and Emma is alittle shorter than her from what i've read

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Tue May 10, 2005 6:27 pm

What is your source for this information Liz ? Where did you find it ?

Tracy...

Liz Crouthers · Post by **Liz Crouthers** » Tue May 10, 2005 6:34 pm

Frank Spiering's Lizzie

Liz Crouthers · Post by **Liz Crouthers** » Tue May 10, 2005 6:42 pm

Stop writing right after me I just got done

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Tue May 10, 2005 6:48 pm

Excuse me ?? Is there a time limit ?

Tracy...

Liz Crouthers · Post by **Liz Crouthers** » Tue May 10, 2005 7:57 pm

LOL

no I just finished and was about to leave and you show up

oh well I'll see you in a minute if you do it again

The :littleangel:]