Bring back my Emma to me....

[Kat]

May I ask about the dress to "go out" phrasing?

Lizzie's inquest 53(10), when asked about her clothes that day:
Q. What dress did you wear the day they were killed?
A. I had on a navy blue, sort of a bengaline or India silk skirt, with a navy blue blouse. In the afternoon they thought I had better change it. I put on a pink wrapper.
Q. Did you change your clothing before the afternoon?
A. No, sir.
Q. You dressed in the morning, as you have described, and kept that clothing on until afternoon?
A. Yes, sir.

Is there somewhere you can point to that shows a quotation that this is clothing to "go out?"

[Audrey]

I always felt two things about the Borden case - one that if Emma would have been indited along with Lizzie (Emma had more motive but less opportunity than Lizzie) there would have been a different outcome, and two, that if the Mexican police would have investigated it that the crime would have been solved about ten minutes after the bodies were found.

Please elaborate on why you think the Mexican police could have solved the crime???

[theebmonique]

Either they waited until the blood had dried (15 minutes standing next to her body) or done the crime in stocking feet and put on shoes. Probably they would have shut the door - no blood there. It would take more of a criminal mind than Lizzie had to have accomplished the murders.
I think there was good reason Lizzie was ostracized by the community.

I struggle a bit with the idea that the attacker would wait until the blood dried. Some of the pooled blood would have taken hours to really 'dry' wouldn't it ?

If Lizzie did not have the 'criminal mind' to commit the murders, not to mention the fact that she was acquitted, what was the good reason she "was ostracized by the community" ?


Tracy...

[john]

According to David Kent:
"Lizzie, who had dressed to go downtown when she arose, asked Bridget if she planned to go out that afternoon. Bridget told her she didn't think so; she wasn't feeling well.
'There's a cheap sale of dress goods at Sargents this afternoon for eight cents a yard,' Lizzie said. 'I'm probably going to pick up some material.'"

[john]

Regarding the Mexican police, have you ever heard of Tobasco la nasa?

[diana]

Oh, that's right. It was David Kent in 40 Whackswho said Lizzie dressed to go out when she got up in the morning. I couldn't remember where I'd read it. Thanks, John.

I wonder what Kent used as his source for that? Maybe he was influenced by Lincoln's vision of Lizzie coming down the stairs in a heavy silk dress and "chic little hat" to chat with Andrew when he came home. But Lincoln says that Lizzie "changed for the street and put on her hat" -- so she's not suggesting Lizzie was wearing street clothes when she arose. (Lincoln, 93,94)

I guess Kent could have combined the two sources -- Lizzie's testimony that she wore the bengaline all morning and Victoria's idea that the bengaline was a heavy, dressy silk.

[theebmonique]

john,

Besides the other questions, I am interested in the answer to Audrey's question about the reference to the Mexican police being able to solve this crime within 10 minutes of the murders. Your response was:

Regarding the Mexican police, have you ever heard of Tobasco la nasa?

. I have been trying to google up some info on Tobasco la nasa, and find info related to NASA, and things related to my favorite cajun flavor...but nothing on anything about Mexican police or their investigative techniques. Any hints or specific websites I can check out ?


Tracy...

[FairhavenGuy]

Is Tobasco la nasa, something like "hot peppers up the nose?"

[theebmonique]

That's what I hear. I must be slow, because I am not getting the connection yet with that and the Borden murders. Maybe I just need a good night's sleep.


Tracy...

[doug65oh]

...If it is, that would explain the ten minute confession. Capsicum is hot as hellfire.

[john]

I have some new information regarding the Borden murders that i'd like to go to Kat. Can someone tell me how to send that?

[Susan]

Hi John, sure, just find a post of Kat's and go to the bottom of it and find the PM button. Click on the and you can send her private message. I'm intrigued by what you might have.

[john]

Thanks Susan - I'm intrigued by how you've been thinking.

[Audrey]

Regarding the Mexican police, have you ever heard of Tobasco la nasa?

hmmm...

Tabasco???


It doesn't make sense to me and I speak fluent Spanish. I learned in in school in France so I know European Spanish better than Mexican Spanish.

I also work as an inmate advocate in my tri-county area serving inmates in county jails. In my "officed" (and therefore most time spent) county we have 90% of the inmate population as Hispanics. I asked them today what this might mean and they did not have any idea. They also thought it must mean tobasco to the nose but didn't have any idea as to what you might be referring to.

Many health nuts snort ground peppers (it is true) to increase endorphins and help with depression and in some cases aid in respiratory problems. My oldest son is a Vegan and he knew about this right away when I mentioned it to him....

I wish you would just elaborate.....

[Kat]

I don't wish to speak for anyone but I think it's torture. It sounds as if the Mexican police had Lizzie for 10 minutes they would have tortured her and got a confession?
But Lizzie Bordenista was still a rich girl, so maybe not. Her money would still buy the police then, and maybe buy them now.

[Audrey]

Lizzie would have made mincemeat out of anyone trying to torture her...

If not-- she would go to her grave not giving "one inch"

[john]

That's easy to say Audrey, and although your picture is fab, your logic is construed. The Mexican court system has an above 80% confession rate to crime. This compares to about 10% from American courts. The court system is different in other ways as well - you're in jail while you're in court - but that applies here only superficially. In Mexican courts you are considered guilty unless you can prove your innocence. My comment about Lizzie meant that her story was absurd and diligent policemen - today and in 1892 would have broken her. Just one point - she says Bridget went to her room before Mr. Borden laid down. Bridget says she heard the clock chime 11:00. Lizzie said she was in the barn for 15 - 20 minutes. Duh? There are several different versions of the time line and none of them addup. Would you like to be Bridget sitting in court if they asked, "and after you let Mr. Borden in, he went upstairs, and you washed several windows with a ladder, and put all of your cleaning things away, and the windows you washed outside including rinsing took an hour and a half and the windows you washed inside took about five minutes and then you went to your room to take a nap, is that correct?" And Bridget would say "yes sir," and in Mexico they wouldn't like that.
So but I think Theebonique has important things to say and I listen closely.
And also someone please respond to my site - I have a lot more things I could say about John Douglas - but I'm afraid of the FBI - but most of Douglas' interspections could have been made randomly by a twelve year old.
If you never hear from me again, as Theebonique says, "you never know what you never know!"

[Kat]

I had stated that myself recently at the beginning of my Douglas topic:
If Lizzie was in the barn for 20 minutes then Bridget was upstairs for 20 minutes. Yes that's true. (No one noticed).

But still, surely you believe the Mexican police would take the bribe in 1892?
(I'm more afeared of the Mexican police than I am of the FBI)

[Nancie]

Just catching up on posts and this one is confusing!
Was there a "Mexican Police" in Fall River in 1892?

[wintressanna]

hmmm well i think the point really is why-- as it sounds-- she chose a circuitous route home rather than a more direct one, as mentioned possible before. I really dont know where to begin to look this up, the exact routes, but it seems an interesting twist like most major and minor aspects of this case, if she didnt return home directly. And its also intruiging that, from the trial quotes, it sounds like the lawyers are glossing over the fact that she didnt choose the direct route. What if anything do they know that they didnt want out in the open? What makes this so baffling is that even the smallest detail has a bizarre twist, brutual murder but not much blood, etc... But there really must have been something going on that no one was openly talking about, what with all the separate suspicions of poisoning. It seems everyone in that house was afraid...why would Emma return home directly???

[wintressanna]

sorry my post was relevant to the timeline with emmas return home...not quite sure how it ended up here

??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

[Audrey]

Jon...

Two words... Mon Dieu..

Are you saying that you are a proponent to a criminal justice system that is considered corrupt by most human right organizations?

What does my physical appearance have to do with the validity of my opinions?

I can assure you I am not some bored housewife with good bone structure....

I have dual masters degrees in psychology and criminology.

I graduated from the French equivalent of high school when I was 15. While in "high school" I attended university level classes at the Sorbonne earing my endorsement in European languages. 23 years later I can still speak fluent French, English, Spanish, Italian, German as well as Sign.

I moved to The US when I was almost 17 and attended a well known University in the northeast.

Although I never held a formal job until recently I did "work" in many different capacities. I was President of the local library as well as Community Chairman of the board of directors of our local county hospital. I can assure you these were not mere "figurehead" appointments for some idle woman to add to her resume once she gets tired of having smart lunches with her equally vapid friends.

I recently was hired as an "inmate advocate" working with non-convicted men and women in the county jail system for the tri-county area.

If you intended to insult me-- congratulations. You certainly succeeded.

Additionally, please elaborate on what you meant by "And also someone please respond to my site"

I do not see a link or reference to a "site" anywhere.

As far as Mexico and their "80% confession" rate-- I suppose I could wring an apology out of you if I performed the same techniques on you they use in getting their "confessions"......

[john]

Is that really Audrey, or did she clip something out of a cute magazine?

[wintressanna]

ummm

what is it with u John? You want to pick a fight on a lizzie borden site? Guess 40 whacks arent enough for u?

[Audrey]

Is that really Audrey, or did she clip something out of a cute magazine?

What did I truly expect?? Is this REALLY the best you can do?

You must like coming in 2nd.....

[john]

Point by point Audrey, first chill - nothing personal except you're cute.
Yes I am a proponent to a criminal justice system that is corrupt. I am not a crook.
Your physical appearance has nothing to do with anything except why do you display your picture (if it is you)? If physical attributes have nothing to do with anything why not leave them at home? Although your pic is cool.
I'm not going into my credentials because they have nothing to do with Lizzie Borden. Origionally I felt sorry for for her because I thought she was unjustly ostracized by the community. I contributed a lot of money to the Fall River Animal Humane Society in her name and there is a plack on the wall there with my name and hers. I'll give you more information about that and pictures if you pm me. I have very little interest in Lizzie Borden or the crime other than it's a perfect crime that perhaps could be solved with the likes of Kat! I read about this crime a while back but unfortunately have been cheated out of my reference books about it along with a lot of money a few years ago.
I certainly wasn't insulting you - where did you read that? - I think you're perhaps the most valuable asset to this site.
Truly, John

[Kat]

I cant keep up! You guys are too fast for me!
I would like to say to Anastasia that yes you are posting your opinion on Emma in the right place, it's just that this thread has gone in a different direction here temporarily!

[Audrey]

Kat is correct...

Back to Emma...

[john]

Huh? The Audrey is perhaps more interested in her Spanish credentials than in a solution. Audrey - just offhand - if you had just killed someone with a hatchet, would you alert people and get them around you?

[wintressanna]

yes if it would make it seem less likely that you are the killer, and also to control how the bodies are discovered, and be able to clue into whether or not your deed is discoverable or you really did cover it up well.

[Audrey]

That is Madame de La'Paix-Martin to you...

[theebmonique]

I know we should to get back to the original topic, but some of you Hahvad grads with good bone structure really ought to think about putting tabasco in your nose !


Tracy...

[theebmonique]

OK...so when this topic was started, Emma was the subject at hand.

If I recall, it was brought up that maybe Emma did take the first possible train back to Fall River...that maybe THAT day there was not an earlier train. Did we ever decide if it could be determined WHY she took the 'circuitous' (wintressanna) route that she did ? Was that the only route at THAT time...on THAT day ? OK...I know I need to go check some testimony and my Rebello. And...I apologize if someone has already answered these questions and I am just too much of a dork to see it. OK...I am off to my Primary Sources disc and my Rebello.


Tracy...

[wintressanna]

well that is the issue at hand...but i dont think we've gleaned enough from the testimonies to know if she took the circuitous roiutes or not. Im basing this from other posts listed NOT from an examination of the primary source documents which i do not have in my possession. What really is needed is an examination of the publications of train schedules, to point out positively whether or not she took the most direct route for that day. Of course we will need to consider this information in light of unforeseen events such as the possibility that the most direct route was in fact not available due to an accident on that particular day. Anyone who has done any travelling came verify that such things do occur. But as I stated previously I am not sure where one would locate such information...does anyone here know or have access to it????????????????? if not, that might be why this line of conversation was suddenly dropped.

[theebmonique]

You can get (download) most of the primary source documents for free via http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/LizzieABorden.htm But if you want a disc of your own, you can go through http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/BordenBooks/index.htm, or subscribe to THE HATCHET, go through http://www.hatchetonline.com/HatchetOnline/index.htm, and get a subscriber's discount. Plus...there are MANY other valuable resources at these sites as well. Stef, Kat, and Harry have done a premier job in putting all of it together for us.

Chris, did you mention something about the access to or the lack of availability of the train schedules for that day ?

Looks like I need to get my own self to 'the website' and look for somethings...including a few extra hours everyday for things Lizzie.


Tracy...

[FairhavenGuy]

wintressanna, hello,

I live here in Fairhaven where Emma was staying.

I'm am pretty certain that in 1892 there WAS a direct line from New Bedford to Fall River and it seems that is what Uncle John took on Wednesday at 12:30 p.m. It also seems to be what the jurors took from New Bedford to Fall River a year later on day two of the trial. To absolutely verify this line existed at that time, though, we would need train schedules from the newspapers or information from an expert on the history of the train lines to and from New Bedford.

The unfortunate circumstance regarding the train route is that theclosest in date of the commonly available atlases of Bristol County that clearly shows the train tracks and the stations was published in 1895, too late.

At any rate, the route from New Bedford north to Weir Junction, was not the most direct route, because the was ANOTHER junction, Myricks, in the Freetown/Lakevile area between New Bedford and Taunton. (The Taunton train route essentially followed close along what is now Route 140 North from New Bedford to Taunton.)

As I think I stated in an earlier post, here, both the New Bedford Evening Standard and the New Bedford Mercury are on file and on microfilm at the New Bedford Free Public Library. The train schedules were published just about daily and could be looked up. A researcher would have to physically go to the library. I imagine the Fall River Library has all the Fall River newspapers filed one way or another, too. I simply do not have the spare time to sit in either library poring over microfilm right now.

Any lack of information is only in the material that has been included in publications relating to Lizzie Borden, including Mr. Rebello's.

[wintressanna]

hi there Fairhaven guy :)

I have noticed your posts in the past and value your input as someone who is well acquainted with and as far as ive seen judicious with information in regards to the Fair Haven area.

And I certainly understand what it can be like to pour through microfiched old newspapers. Ive done some genealogical research with small towns in Vermont and New York before (NOTE: I am not the worlds greatest genealogical investigator nor well broken into the field!) and have found that the concept that someone somewhere has taken tender loving care for all these historical resources in orderly fashion is in some cases purely mythological. The microfiche may supposed to reflect chronological order, but it in fact may not. There might be a page missing that turns up in the midst of the next reel, or the next reel after that. So it sounds easy just to go check out the newspaper for that day, and it may well be, but it also MAY NOT. I mean not to malign the librarians of this area but I have found it so in some cases in my experience.

But I must also add, that without this crucial piece it does mean the line of conversation may be somewhat limited. I dont mean to indicaate that your reassurance that it is nearly certain there would have been a more direct route available is baseless, it seems like you know the area and seems also very likely this would be the case. I guess Id just like to know what happened that day...and really wonder why Emma would not have chosen the more direct route.

But again as I said before, there seems to have been a tense atmosphere in that house right at that time, and this is another possible piece to that. I really wonder what was going on, what the conversations were about, what was everyone so scared of--was it murder? Or were the murders in reaction to it (the reason for the tension)?

[john]

Of course, Madame de La'Paix-Martin. I be you've got your own page in the phone book there in Iowa.

[john]

be = bet; plack = plaque. Now I know why bikers tatoo words on their hands - so they remember how to spell them. Tough ones like "Love, Hate, Hell," (oops can we say that here?)

[Susan]

If Emma did indeed take the longer route to get home I'm left with an unappetizing view of her. If the telegram sent to her was too soft in its message, say that Andrew was only ill, please hurry home and she didn't, it makes her look like she really didn't care to hurry to Andrew's bedside. And the only other reason I can think of for Emma not to hurry is that she knew what had happened at home already and didn't want to rush to get involved. So, she must have had some guilty foreknowledge that something would happen while she was away.

[wintressanna]

Yeah I know what you mean. Especially cause it doesnt sound like Andrew was the type to stay home sick very often, or to complain of illness and miss out on business. But it really is difficult to say without knowing what the telegram actually said.

One thing that occurred to me, which is EXTREMELY SPECULATIVE, but if Emma really was docile and manipulatable, I wonder if the delay in coming home had something to do with a courtesy she was talked into regarding those she was visiting. After all, it was established that the telegram was toned down to spare the aging mother the stress of the tragedy...sometimes an aging mother who needs to be spared stress is a person who is uptight and overbearing, no? BUT WAIT A MINUTE, didnt the suggestion to tone down the telegram come from Lizzie? Did Lizzie think Emma had reason to suspect her of murder and didnt want Emma to find out just yet? And if so, would Bowen have inferred this and not toned the note down so much after all? So much really is possible.

Another possibility ocurred to me regarding Emma's circuitous route home.. either A> to meet someone or B> to dispose of a murder weapon, if it somehow someway got to where she could dispose of it on the way home.

Okay, none of this takes us anywhere factual but the endless possibilities are fascinating.

[Kat]

1889 schedule:

New Bedford to Fall River.
New Bedford leaves 7:05 10am 12:35PM 5:45Pm

arrives FR 7:40, 1:10, and 6:20

From Stef. She has a train schedule, 1889.

Harry's interpretation of Emma's trip based on the 1889 schedule which was scanned and sent to him, and information we have on Weir Junction:

"She [would leave] the Pearl St. Station in New Bedford on the 3:40 to Weir Junction.
That arrived at 4:19. She [would leave] Weir Junction on the 4:48.
That arrived at the Bowenville station, Fall River at 5:14."

*All times subject to change somewhat between 1889 and 1892.

[Audrey]

Now That is exactly what I wanted to discuss in this thread...

Why wouldn't Emma rush to her sick father's side if she was only told he was ill?

I don't think Dr Bowen would tell her to come when she felt like it.... But to come at once-- there was illness in the house.

[Kat]

Her train options might be limited and her time lapse to receive the telegram and the time it would take to pack and get to New Bedford to get the train out of there, which stopped along the way, might be why it took so long.

[Harry]

I was assuming that the earliest train she could have taken out of New Bedford was the 3:40.

There was an earlier train that left at 1:30 and arrived at Weir Junction at 2:05. The trouble with that is that the next train out of Weir Junction was still the 4:48.

To further complicate it she could have taken the 1:30 to Weir Junction and then some transportation from Weir Junction to Weir Village and caught the 3:30 train out of Weir Village and arrived in Fall River at 3:58.

I have no knowledge how far it is from Weir Junction to Weir Village.

[Kat]

It sounds like the arrival time of 5:14 thru the circuitous route was an earlier chance to get home than the New Bedford to Fall River route which arrived at 6:20 pm.

[Susan]

Yes, I agree, Emma's options may have been limited as to what train she could catch due to having to pack and such. But, if she purposefully took a longer route to get home, thats the one that makes me think sour thoughts about Emma. How often does one get a telegram that a family member is sick and your presence is required?

I think that I keep getting stuck in our time with our wash and wear clothes and how if it was me, I'd just throw everything into the suitcase and worry about the wrinkled, mussed clothing when I got home and to get home as fast as humanly possible. I guess it wasn't so easy in 1892 packing up those dresses with the yards and yards of material in the skirts that must have taken forever and a day to iron! And how would you pack something like that anyway? Fold it? Roll it up?

[Kat]

!!

Emma, if these times are somewhat consistent, would have taken a longer journey, but arrived earlier than the direct route because of the train schedule Harry offered compared to the route Stef wrote about.

Meaning, she says she arrived around 5. She would have arrived around 5:14 by going the long way. Whereas, according to these timetables, the direct route didn't leave until 5:45 getting into Fall River at 6:20

[FairhavenGuy]

Once more, though, an 1889 schedule may not be accurate for 1892. There could very well be seasonal differences, too, as with today's ferry schedules here.

Or even daily differences.

The schedule in the New Bedford Standard printed on Friday, Aug. 5, 1892, doesn't include a 12:30 departure, which Morse says he took on Wednesday.

The 1889 schedule shows no 3:40 departure, yet the Friday, Aug. 5, 1892, Standard does.

We really need to see all the schedules on all the routes for Thursday, Aug. 4, 1892. That's the only way to be certain.

[Harry]

Absolutely, Chris.

We need to see not only the schedules in effect on August 4th but also Dr. Bowen's telegram to Emma telling her the trains to take. Since he said he returned to his home to check the train schedules I'm assuming he included the details in his telegram.