KEYS

[Kat]

When we watched that we hadn't laughed so hard in a very long time- our eyes were streaming! My mom and me.

[Reasonwhy]

Here are more keys. From the Prelim (posted earlier). They may need to be checked against the trial.

Dolan recalled: He opened the handkerchief in which he had stored the things the undertaker had given him and sounds surprised a bit to find 2 loose keys and a bunch of keys (on a ring). Earlier, he hadn't noticed one of the separate keys. 110(194).

Winward, the undertaker:
CROSS-EXAMINATION.

Q. (Mr. Jennings) Were these keys all upon the ring?
A. I do not remember; I should think they were; but I would not be positive about it.
Q. Did you not find either of the keys loose in his pocket?
A. I could not say; I do not recollect.
Page 359 (387)

Q. You do not remember whether you put any of the keys on the ring after you found them, or not?
A. I did not put any of them on the ring.
Q. So all the keys that are on the ring now, so far as you know, were there when you took them from his pocket?
A. They were.
Q. Do you recollect whether you found either of the keys in his vest pocket?
A. I should say not.
Q. You think they were all in his pants pocket?
A. Yes.

--It doesn't sound like he took these things off the body himself? At first he doesn't remember. It's suggested to him that he took them from a pocket. He might be saying all the keys on the ring now were there before without saying he took them out. Then when asked if he thought they'd been in the pants pocket he agreed.
We are trying to determine what Bowen did when he went to get what he thought would be a door key to Andrew's room- did he take keys out of Andrew's pocket first? If so, did Bowen leave them out or put them back? Why would Bowen put them back? Maybe he didn't. (As has been questioned earlier here). Maybe Winward is just not saying they weren't in Andrew's pocket?

Bridget says Andrew had a barn key, and after opening the barn door(217), it stayed open all day (240). Open may mean door shut but unlocked or it may mean door open, as in ajar or wide open.

When the searchers wanted the key to the elder Borden's room Fleet says they got that key from Bridget (334).

Bridget says she hasn't had her side door key"quite a year yet." (209).

Is this what you were thinking of, Kat?

[camgarsky4]

Wow.....this thread has so much to unpack....I'm only half way thru and need to take a break!!! John sure seemed like a swell fella. :)

[Kat]

Wow Reasonwhy! ...this was not the topic I had in mind but you picked a doozy!
Thank you for your helpfulness
Edit here:
I found the topic where I recovered the news item about Morse, and it came from The Privy.
The one you provided was much better!

[camgarsky4]

[camgarsky4]

Do any of you readily have the source which tells of a Mrs. Bowen stating that "Abby told me they took away her key"?

I've reread her witness statement, Prelim and trial testimony and can't find Bowen making this statement. Yet in the threads from back in the day it is referenced as a fact repeatedly. Kat -- a couple of your posts mention this statement....so hoping you can readily recall the source.

Thanks!!

[PossumPie]

INQUEST TESTIMONY
JOHN FLEET
Q. What rooms were those, if you remember?
A. The one I was already in, I merely glanced around in that room;
then in the upper front bed room, or spare room, as they call it, I
searched around there; and tried another room which I found locked,
a clothes press. Then I went down stairs. I did not go in that room at
that time.

What was the sociological pathology in the Borden house for such an obsession with keeping EVERYTHING locked??? In reading the inquest again, I see that the freaking clothes closet at the front of the house was locked and someone had to procure a key to open it! Seriously, that is crazy. Any room that had a door, was kept locked! I can understand the outside doors being kept locked--it wasn't the best neighborhood. But a lock on Lizzie's door to Andrew's room AND a lock on Andrew's door to Lizzie's room BOTH kept locked with separate keys? Seriously? All of the attic rooms were locked as they made their way through searching them. A word search through any formal document in this case turns up hundreds of times the word "key" or "keys" is used.
Here is an example of the barriers to get around: Andrew would need to unlock 3 locks on the front door, enter, relock them, go to the mantle, get another key to get in his room, go upstairs, unlock his room, and enter. These people spent half their lives hunting for keys and locking/unlocking doors! There is something psychologically wrong with that. The more I think of the locked barriers to get in and around in the house, the more ridiculous a stranger sneaking in and killing them becomes. It would be like sneaking into the Federal Reserve Bank!

[camgarsky4]

Definitely inexplicable to lock a closet and attic storage rooms. Somebody had issues.

If they were spring locks, maybe these were the original pre-Borden doors and Andrew felt it was a waste of money to replace the self locking knobs with something more convenient? Of course that would imply that the original builder/owner was a nut case or some other odd explanation.

Seems more plausible that Andrew had the phobias.

Prior threads/posts used the locking doors as an indicator of abuse, but would protecting against abuse extend to closets? Not likely.

[PossumPie]

In my prior life as a psychologist, I encountered lock issues. Over-paranoid, abusive husbands locked their wives out of everything, demanding they ask permission to open anything including closets... And desperate parents of kids with Prader-Willi syndrome who had to lock the fridge and food cabinets else their kids would eat themselves to death. Neither seems to apply here though.

[Kat]

Do any of you readily have the source which tells of a Mrs. Bowen stating that "Abby told me they took away her key"?

I've reread her witness statement, Prelim and trial testimony and can't find Bowen making this statement. Yet in the threads from back in the day it is referenced as a fact repeatedly. Kat -- a couple of your posts mention this statement....so hoping you can readily recall the source.

Thanks!!

Yes, I have source to the book generated by the Lizzie Borden Conference, called Proceedings.
First pic gives citation
Second pic see comments recorded in Jennings' notebook about Mrs. Dr. Bowen
Note: shows Admin posted, but that is what it looks like when Admin has to move a thread. Topic was transcribed by me, and so it is in The Privy.

[Kat]

We should recall the house was first built as a two family home, downstairs one family, upstairs second family. I assume the attic is for use of second floor tenant? Maybe cellar for use by first floor tenant?
I can't prove that the interior doors remained the same when Andrew remodeled, but if same doors, maybe not impossible these previous families contributed somewhat to a seeming excess of door locks and keys?
Maybe we can figure out which doors, if remained the same, would be reasonable to have a separate lock and key, under these conditions.
But you'd be right to say, Andrew's family did not have to continue with the practice of locking doors...unless they thought of themselves as two separate families?

[PossumPie]

We should recall the house was first built as a two family home, downstairs one family, upstairs second family. I assume the attic is for use of second floor tenant? Maybe cellar for use by first floor tenant?
I can't prove that the interior doors remained the same when Andrew remodeled, but if same doors, maybe not impossible these previous families contributed somewhat to a seeming excess of door locks and keys?
Maybe we can figure out which doors, if remained the same, would be reasonable to have a separate lock and key, under these conditions.

Having locks on doors which can POTENTIALLY be locked, and having locks on doors that are ALWAYS locked is two different things...I could lock every door in my house as the builder put those knobs that have turn locks on them, but we have NEVER locked interior doors...

[camgarsky4]

Agree Kat.....prior owners might be part of the issue. Andrew (and probably my cheap self) might view replacing the existing spring lock doors with non locking hardware as a complete waste. Of course, keeping track of keys seems a bit annoying.

I'm going to take a look at house layout tonight. The to-do list is long!!!

[Kat]

Thanks, I was actually editing my post to include that idea, Possum and when I was done, and read my edit I see you had already made the same deduction!
You guys are too quick for me!

[Reasonwhy]

edit

[Kat]

I'm assuming my source of Jennings notebook for item about Abbie and her key is acceptable, at least to those of you who continued to post after that.
I'm truly sorry not everyone has same access to sources, so thanks for asking.

[Reasonwhy]

Could be telling that police found the clothes press was actually locked—and not just capable of being locked—on the Thursday. Adds support to those who think the bloody dress was in there, hidden within a winter dress.

Unless all doors were always locked

[Kat]

You know, there was a thought that since Andrew did sometimes do business at home, the household, in certain reasonable areas, might wish to lock certain rooms. I had also wondered, if Dr Kelly accepted patients, did his family also keep personal spaces locked. Do we know if Dr Kelly treated folks at his home? (But I guess we won't know if that is comparable...)

[Reasonwhy]

I'm assuming my source of Jennings notebook for item about Abbie and her key is acceptable, at least to those of you who continued to post after that.
I'm truly sorry not everyone has same access to sources, so thanks for asking.

Can’t remember if I have that, or not. Where is it to be found, again?

[camgarsky4]

Yes, I think Jennings notebook is an acceptable source if the notes were written at that time and based on direct interviews. Can't wait for the Jennings papers coming out soon. I sent the Historical Society an email asking if it would be available in time to purchase for Christmas and what do you know? Kat's sister, Stefani, answered my email!! She said they should be available to purchase by Thanksgiving. :)

For example, the Rounseville quote I view as 'fact' because Knowlton also summoned him as a witness and the quote was also published in a newspaper article. So multiple verifications.

Regarding Abby and her snatched key, Jennings/Phillips are directly quoting Mrs. Bowen from an interview and that feels highly credible to me.

[Kat]

I'm assuming my source of Jennings notebook for item about Abbie and her key is acceptable, at least to those of you who continued to post after that.
I'm truly sorry not everyone has same access to sources, so thanks for asking.

Can’t remember if I have that, or not. Where is it to be found, again?

The book, Proceedings, that was published after the Centennial Conference on Lizzie Borden. It has multiple chapters based on the papers that were delivered by the authors. The chapter on the "Hip-bath Collection" includes some of Jennings' notes.

[Reasonwhy]

Oh, yes, thank you, Kat! I do have that fascinating book. It is worth the money to buy a copy on eBay if anyone does not have it. I have seen it there recently for a reasonable price. The articles, very well-written, are tremendously thought provoking.

Just checked—there’s at least one copy on sale there this morning:
Proceedings Lizzie Borden Conference, Bristol Community College, Fall River, Mas $47.98, w/free shipping

Or, Amazon has one copy today, for $44.99, plus $3.99 shipping.

[Kat]

It used to be considered very rare and commanded a price around $225. Nice to know it's available and affordable.