KEYS

[Kat]

Preliminary Hearing
Dr. Dolan
87+
Q. Did you search, or cause to be searched, the person of Mr. Borden at that time?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you take from it the things that were found?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What did you take?
A. I took some keys.
Q. Where are they.
A. In my possession.
Q. Have you got them here?
A. No Sir.
Q. Will you produce them?
A. If you wish, yes sir.
Q. I do. You took some keys?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. A bunch?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That is to say, they were on a key ring?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. In what pocket were they?
A. I did not take them myself.
Q. Did you see them taken?
A. No Sir.
Q. Who gave them to you?
A. The undertaker.
Q. I understood you to say you took some keys.
A. No Sir.
Q. Did not I just ask you if you searched, or caused the search?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Do you know where these keys came from, what pocket?
A. No Sir, I do not.
Q. Did they come from any pocket?
A. I could not say.
Q. Where were you when the undertaker handed them to you?
A. In the sitting room.
Q. On this day?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you take anythingelse from the person, or see anything taken from the person?
A. I cannot remember now whether I took anything or not; I think I did take something myself; I cannot remember just what it was.
Q. What else have you?
A. I have got some money.
Page 88 (183)

Q. Loose, or in a pocket book?
A. Loose and in a pocket book, change, I have some silver, and some money in a pocket book.
(184)
Q. Who gave you those?
A. The undertaker.
Q. What else?
A. I do not recollect anythingelse. I have a memorandum book.
Q. Have you got any papers?
A. I could not say; I have not examined it.
Q. You have not examined them?
A. I counted the money before the undertaker.
Q. Where are all these things?
A. In the safe at the office.
Q. Will you produce them?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Have you any keys other than this bunch of keys?
A. There is a big key there, like a shop key.
Q. Have you any other key besides the big shop key and this bunch of keys?
A. I do not know, I have not examined them thoroughly; they were all put in a handkerchief, and tied up, and they have remained that way.
Q. I understand you have not altered these keys as to their arrangement since you received them?
A. No Sir.
Q. There are certain keys that are on a key ring?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. There is one other large key?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. So far as you recollect, that is all the keys there are?
A. So far as I can recollect.
Q. Whatever keys there are, are precisely the same collection that they were, when you received them?

[Kat]

Preliminary
Mrs. Dr. Kelly
106+
Q. Where was he when you saw him first?
A. He was coming around his house, going towards the front door.
Q. Coming around in his yard?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Going towards his front door?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you see him go up the steps?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What did you see him doing, if anything, when he got up the steps?
A. I thought he was trying to put the key in the door. I thought he was trying to open the door.
Q. Where was you at that time?
A. I was going down the street towards Borden street.

------

109
Q. Did you look to see what he did at the door?
A. Yes Sir. I looked up to speak to him, and he did not see me.
Q. He was back to you then, was he?
A. Yes Sir; I thought he was trying to open the door.
Q. Could you tell whether he had a key in his hand or not?
A. No Sir.
(212)
Q. Did you see him pull the bell?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you see him go in?
A. No Sir.
Q. You passed by, and left him there?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You do not know how he did get in?
A. No Sir.
Q. You do not know that he did get in?
A. No Sir.

[Kat]

Preliminary
Dolan (again)
Page 110 (194)

DR. DOLAN, recalled.

Q. (Mr. Adams.) Have you got the keys here?
A. I have. Everything is just as I got it, I have not opened it.
Q. Wont you examine, and produce the keys?
A. (Witness produces the keys.)
Q. Is that the large key you speak of?
A. That was the one I referred to; I did not notice this.
Q. Are these three, namely, the bunch of keys, and the two separate keys, are those all the keys?
A. Yes Sir, so far as I can see.
Q. I see you have produced some fine cut chewing tobacco; you understood that Mr. Borden was not in the habit of using tobacco, chewing tobacco?
A. I do not know; I could not tell you.
Q. You do not know, except that there is a package of partly used fine chewing tobacco?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. I asked you before you went, I will ask you again now you see the keys, whether these keys are arranged as they were when they were handed to you?
A. Yes Sir, I have not disturbed them.
Q. If you will leave these things here, I will not trouble you any further, we shall want them during the trial.
A. I should want an order of the Court before I gave them up.
(Court) That is entirely right.

[Kat]

Preliminary
Morse
165
Q. How other than by the spring lock was it usually locked at night?
A. By the bolt, and then they turned the common key in the lock.
(263)
Q. Assuming what was usually done was done that night for the purpose of this question, did you hear anybody unbolt that bolt, or do anything to the lock the next morning?
A. No sir.
Q. That is, opening the extra bolts?
A. No sir.
Q. You did not hear anything of that kind?
A. No sir.
.....

[Kat]

Preliminary
Bridget
174
Q. Did you have anything to do with shutting up the doors when you went to bed, or any of them?
A. Not except the back door, I locked that, had a key for it, when I got in.
.....

189
Q. What locks on the front door did you find locked when you let him in?
A. The bolt and a common key that I turned on both sides.
Q. Anythingelse?
A. No Sir.
Q. A spring lock?
A. Yes Sir. He had a key.
Q. He unlocked that from the outside?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was that spring lock set to lock the door up when it was shut?
A. Yes Sir.
....

191
Q. Where was Mr. Borden when you came into the dining room?
A. After coming down stairs from his room.
Q. Did you see him go?
A. I saw him take the key from the shelf.
Q. Was that after Miss Lizzie spoke to him?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Where did he take the key from?
A. Off the sitting room shelf.
Q. How did he go to go up stairs, which way?
A. The back way.
.....

Q. Was it the usual place to keep the key of his room on the shelf in the sitting room?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That room was kept locked?
A. Yes Sir.
Page 192 (22)

Q. That is the room that lets in from the back stairs?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did he bring the key back when he came back?
A. Yes Sir, and put it on the shelf.
Q. He sat down with a book or a paper near the window in the sitting room?
A. Yes Sir.
......

209
Q. When you went out that night, did you have a key to the back door?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You left the screen door unfastened?
A. Yes Sir, but the other door was locked.
Q. You always had a key to that door?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. For how long?
A. I dont think I have had it quite a year yet.
.....

217
Q. Did he go around back of the barn to take that out there?
A. Threw it out in the yard, I guess, and went in the barn and got some water.
Q. The door of the barn was open that Thursday morning?
A. He had a key, and opened it himself.
.....

231
Q. Did you go out Wednesday evening?
A. Yes Sir,
Q. What time did you get home?
A. Five minutes past ten.
Q. And had your key?
A. Yes Sir.
....

235
Q. When he came in, did he have anything in his hand?
A. A parcel.
Q. A white parcel?
A. Yes Sir.
(79)
Q. Any key or brass lock in his hand?
A. I did not notice it.
Q. Did one hand seem to be free, and the other to have a package in it?
A. I did not notice, only that he had a little package.
......

236
Q. Had you finished the sitting room window then?
A. No Sir. Mr. Borden came through the kitchen door, and took a key off his shelf, and went up into his room.
.....

237
Q. Now he went into the sitting room, took this key and went up stairs to his room.?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What was you doing?
A. Washing the sitting room windows. As he came down, I was taking the step ladder from the sitting room into the dining room. He went in the sitting room, and sat down at the window in the sitting room, and had a paper or book, or something in his hand. I cannot tell what it was. That was the last I saw of him.
....

240
Q. Was Mr. Borden in the habit of opening the barn early in the morning?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. With the key he himself had?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. It stayed open all day?
A. Yes Sir.

[Kat]

Preliminary
Fleet
333
Q. You had no more talk with her just then?
A. Not that I can just remember. We searched the bureau drawers, and went into what was called Miss Emma's room, and searched her bed, and Lizzie's bed, and all the places that was available. Then we went behind the bed, Lizzie's bed, to another door, and I got my hand on to that door, and asked her where the key was to this door. She says "that is father's room." She says "you cannot get in at that door. It is always locked." I says "I should like to get in there some way or another. She says "the only way to get in is by going around the back stairs and going in that way. I found the door was locked, so I took her word for it, and went out. O, then I got out in the hall way, I asked her who had the key to this door, and what it was used for.
Q. What door was that?
A. A clothes press on the second floor. She said that she had a key that would open it. I says "I wish you would produce it, I want to look in there." Well, she says "there is nothing in there, but clothing." Well, I says "I want to see, I want to look in there." She produced a key and unlocked the door. I went in there and looked around.
....

334
A. I searched in there, and found nothing that we thought we had ought to take. We went from there down stairs, and looked in the parlor, and did not find anything there, and went ---
Q. You said "we", who was that with you?
A. As I said before Officer Minnehan and Wilson. We searched again the sitting room and closet in there, and found nothing. The same way in the sitting room, and searched the kitchen and the closets, a more thorough search. Then we got the key from Bridget and searched Mrs. Borden's room.
Q. You went up the back stairs, do you mean?
A. We went up the back stairs to do that.
Q. Did you try the door between Lizzie's room and Mrs. Borden's?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Which side did you try it from?
A. From Lizzie's side.
Q. How was it fastened?
A. By a bolt I think from the other side, and I do not know but a hook too.
Q. Then what?
A. We searched that room, and the room adjoining, there was a safe in that, but we did not find anything; nothing but the bed, that is all; we found no kind of an instrument that the persons could have been killed by. Then we went up stairs and searched the four attics, I think it was four. Bridget had the keys. We went into each one as she unlocked them, and turned over things, and put them back in their proper places, and found nothing there that we wanted. We searched Bridget's bed, and searched also a bed where John Morse had slept since, and I think had before.

....

338
Q. Then you went in, and she asked you if it was necessary, and said she hoped it would not take long?
A. Yes sir.
Q. And she gave you the key?
A. She did not, she went and unlocked the door herself.
Q. Having the key herself?
A. Yes sir.
Q. This was the clothes press, or closet we were asking about, which was over the front entry, which you make about eight feet by five, and which was light, and easy to search?
A. It was when we opened the blind.
.....

342
Q. Did you search this closet again at the head of the stairs?
A. We did.
Q. Who did?
A. I was in there, looked in there, and the Marshal I think was the one that searched it thoroughly.
Q. How thoroughly was it searched, what was done if you saw?
A. We looked at all the clothing I suppose.
Q. Was Mr. Seaver there?
A. Yes.
Q. He was engaged in that part of the search too, was not he?
A. Yes, I did not search that time, I merely went to the room, and the others were in it.
Q. Who unlocked it for you, if it was locked at that time?
A. I think the keys were given to the Marshal.
Q. By whom?
A. By somebody in the house, I could not say who.
Q. That is, the keys to everything in the house?
A. Yes.
Q. You searched the cellar again, and the barn?
Page 343 (369)

A. I did not.
Q. It was searched, was not it?
A. Not at that time.
Q. Did you search the vault, and everything else?
A. I searched it on the first day.
Q. You went through such things as band boxes and barrels and all those things on this Saturday search, and bundles, undid bundles?
A. We went through everything.
Q. Things done up in bundles, you went through those, and untied them?
A. Yes sir, furs and capes &c.

[Kat]

Preliminary
Winwood (Winward-Undertaker)
358
(Some things are brought in wrapped in a handkerchief.)

CROSS-EXAMINATION.

Q. (Mr. Jennings) Were these keys all upon the ring?
A. I do not remember; I should think they were; but I would not be positive about it.
Q. Did you not find either of the keys loose in his pocket?
A. I could not say; I do not recollect.
Page 359 (387)

Q. You do not remember whether you put any of the keys on the ring after you found them, or not?
A. I did not put any of them on the ring.
Q. So all the keys that are on the ring now, so far as you know, were there when you took them from his pocket?
A. They were.
Q. Do you recollect whether you found either of the keys in his vest pocket?
A. I should say not.
Q. You think they were all in his pants pocket?
A. Yes.

[Kat]

I believe that concludes the "Key" testimony from the Preliminary Hearing, which not many have.

[john]

Then we went up stairs and searched the four attics, I think it was four. Bridget had the keys. We went into each one as she unlocked them, and turned over things, and put them back in their proper places, and found nothing there that we wanted. We searched Bridget's bed, and searched also a bed where John Morse had slept since, and I think had before. - Kat
Did Uncle John normally sleep in the attic, or the guest room?

[Kat]

Actually that was Fleet- not "Kat." but I know what you mean...
When Morse stayed that one whole year his room was in the attic, northeast corner.
After the murders he slept in that same attic room, which is now a bathroom.
I think he sometimes slept in the guestroom, but not all the time. If there were guests, or if they were sewing etc. he would not be using the guest room.

[john]

I'd rather talk with Kat than Fleet.
Q. What locks on the front door did you find locked when you let him in?
A. The bolt and a common key that I turned on both sides.
Q. Anythingelse?
A. No Sir.
Q. A spring lock?
A. Yes Sir. He had a key.
Q. He unlocked that from the outside?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was that spring lock set to lock the door up when it was shut?
A. Yes Sir.
- Bridget's testimony.
If that was all there was to it, Mr. Borden would have just walked in unless he forgot his keys which sounds unlikely for him, and from stated testimony, sounds like they were back in his pocket. Except someone evidently had the bolt set too (not normal for daytime). If the inside key was missing, however, Bridget would have let out her, "o pshaw," realizing she's trying to open something that can't be opened. I know I read that Bridget had to get a key, and this is the only situation it could relate to. If the key was in the inside of the door, you'd think it a pretty simple operation just to open it even though she said she had nothing to do with that door. If the key wasn't on the inside, there would be problems on each side of the door which it seems there were.
If someone, with more knowledge of the house than probably an intruder would have, had removed the inside key, then it would have kept Abby from running out as well as kept someone from coming in.

[Audrey]

I think the lock that prevented Andrew from entering with his keys was what we might think of as a dead bolt. No keys on either side. Just a mechanism to turn on the inside. This was usually unlocked in the morning and keys were used then to open the other locks.

[Susan]

Heres a pic of the inside of the Borden front door, hard to see, but, I think the order of locks is 1)spring lock 2) common key lock 3) bolt



And a modern day photo showing the locks:



Photos from the LBVM&L site.

[Haulover]

RE the pics: And if i understand correctly, that modern arrangement of the three locks duplicates the one of 1892?
___________________

Lizzie describes it thus (Inquest)

Q. How many did you fasten?
A. The spring locks itself, and there is a key to turn, and you manipulate the bolt.
Q. You manipulated all those?
A. I used them all.

__________________________

But more on the mystery of keys in 3 answers in lizzie's inquest:

A. No, I said that week. There was a man came the week before and gave up some keys, and I took them.

A. Father's bedroom door was kept locked, and his door into my room was locked and hooked too I think, and I had no keys.

A. No, he had his key and could not get in. I understood Maggie to say he said he had forgotten his key. [note: Lizzie gets very upset soon after this............the "i don't know what i've said" is building.] this statement does not make sense, of course -- i think the question is: what sort of problem does this make an attempt to cover?

[Allen]

Well as I've stated in another thread: Could it be because Lizzie said she thought she heard Abby come in, and she then realized there was no possible way Abby could've come in on her own without being let in? But, for some reason, nobody put two and two together. Abby had no key, and the front door was locked. The screen door was hooked. If Andrew couldn't get in, even if he did have a key, how could Abby have come in on her own without one?

[Haulover]

"A. No, he had his key and could not get in. I understood Maggie to say he said he had forgotten his key."

i think i'm just zooming in on this because of the general discussion about keys. the second statement contradicts the former unless you read something into it. lizzie knows he had a key and cannot imagine how it was he could not get in but she thought maggie said he had forgotten it? andrew lied to maggie about his key? maggie lied to lizzie about what andrew said?

lizzie doesn't want anyone to get the idea that she has secretly given a key to someone?

___________

this is a good thread, BTW. i can' t remembering focusing so squarely on keys before. someone made a good point -- that it is as if andrew can't consider the whole house his own the way it is locked up and divided -- that's what i thought from the comment i'm remembering anyway. no, he is clearly not in charge of his household. that front door is not his first choice anyway--he uses the side door, doesn't he? that's the real mystery as far as i'm concerned -- what is the "uneasy truce" all about? there's a real story there missing i wish i could correctly guess.

_________


allen: i agree with you about lizzie's remark about hearing abby come in. there are numerous reasons it can't be -- the biggest one the time differential. the "big picture" situation in lizzie's testimony is that both abby and maggie disappear shortly after 9 am -- maggie materializes at the front door to let in andrew, then materializes back upstairs in her room where she had already gone anyway, then she (lizzie) is with andrew in sitting room, then the barn, then on her way upstairs to sit down.

[diana]

I know I'm really nit-picking here -- but does Lizzie ever say she heard Abby come in? I know Bridget and Mrs. C. say she did -- but Lizzie denies saying that she did. So, in that case, it would have been pretty hard to call her on it.

Also, can anyone remember if we came to a consensus as to which door Andrew used when he left in the morning? I know I thought it was the side door -- but, if so, then Andrew left that door unlocked, right? Because he couldn't latch the screen from the outside -- and neither Bridget or Lizzie were there to latch it for him. I still have trouble with security-conscious Andrew leaving a door unlocked as he heads downtown.

As far as Andrew having to ring the bell -- I think I assumed that Andrew had a key when he came home but was prevented from getting in by that bolt on the bottom.

Thanks for putting those pictures up, Susan!

[Kat]

You've probably checked Lizzie's inquest testimony and so I won't. I would answer that since it was supposedly this statement which got the ladies to go upstairs and find Abby, can we assume Lizzie said this or something very like it?
How else does she contrive to motivate someone else to go check for Abby after talk of a note?
.....
It was brought up recently that Lizzie herself doesn't get up off the lounge to find Mrs. Borden though she was capabale of looking, as well as anyone. That still gets me- that she left that horror to someone else.
.....
"A. No, it was Maggie said he said he had forgotten the key."-Lizzie, Inquest
Does this sound like Lizzie overheard this, or is she saying that Bridget told her this? When would that have happened?

[john]

For several reasons it should be assumed that Andrew had his keys in his pocket, and then the statement that he had forgotten his keys which Lizzie attributed firmly to Bridget takes on a lot of meaning.
If andrew was going to knock on a door (because he forgot his keys) he would most likely think if there were people to let him in, they'd be at the kitchen end of the house (hooked screen) rather than the parlour end (with multiple locks). If he started towards the front door, finding the screen door hooked, and realized at any time he didn't have a key he'd more than likely just go back to the screen door and knock rather than the front door which would most likely be less productive.
Of course there is testimony that Mrs. Kelly thought he was trying to use a key, and Bridget' comment of fumbling although she didn't remember a "ring" (doorbell), which you'd thing she'd remember as well as Lizzie's remembering.
Dr. Dolan testified to Andrew's personal effects, including a ring of keys from "the person of Mr. Borden."
So they were back in his pocket in spite of Dr. Bowen producing them once.
It sounds like the statement attributed to Bridget about Mr. Borden forgetting his key was a lie, or Mr. Borden is just a mumbler, which it never seemed to me he really talked much.
Perhaps just as importantly, where was Uncle Morse the night before the murders, when he was out until about fifteen minutes before Lizzie got in?
Buying oxen is probably a daytime activity. If he was at his relatives did trains run that late? What time did Andrew lock the barn? Did the keys relinquished to lizzie by "a man" a few weeks before the murders include a key to the barn?
Did those keys include a key to Andrew and Abby's room? Did the Chagnons change their testimony because they were prosecution witnesses?
I'm getting to agree with what Kat seems to think about Alice Russell - sounds like a dipthong (Kat has never said dipthong though).

[diana]

Lizzie denies saying she heard Abby come in -- but she does admit asking someone to look for Abby.

"Q. I want you to give me all that you did, by way of word or deed, to see whether your mother was dead or not, when you found your father was dead.
A. I did not do anything, except what I said to Mrs. Churchill. I said to her: "I don't know where Mrs. Borden is. I think she is out, but I wish you would look.
Q. You did ask her to look?
A. I said that to Mrs. Churchill.
Q. Where did you intend for her to look?
A. In Mrs. Borden's room."

And as we know, the women had already been up to Mrs. Borden's room for the sheets -- so the natural inclination now would be to check up the front stairs.

Here are some thoughts I put forward before in another post – but I’m sticking them in again to suggest why Bridget and Mrs. Churchill may have thought Lizzie said she heard Abby come in. It has to do with people’s need to make sense of things and their tendency to fill in the blanks in order to provide a logical construction.

Maybe Bridget tries to reconcile Lizzie’s plea for someone to go and look for Abby with Bridget’s own idea that Abby was at the Whitehead’s? When Lizzie asks people to look for Abby in the house -- Bridget thinks to herself: “Well, Lizzie must have heard her come in, then.” So, at some point during the crisis, she says to Addie – ‘I think Lizzie heard Mrs. Borden come in' -- and Mrs. Churchill just hears the last part of the sentence and attributes it to Lizzie. Both of them fit that statement into their personal memory of the scene. And simply because the words have been uttered, they can both “believe” that Lizzie said them.

As far as saying Maggie said Andrew had forgotten his key -- I wouldn't go so far as to say Lizzie "firmly" attributed this to Maggie. But it's a matter of interpretation, I guess

"Q. His key would have done him no good if the locks were left as you left them?
A. But they were always unbolted in the morning.
Q. Who unbolted them that morning?
A. I don't think they had been unbolted; Maggie can tell you.
Q. If he had not forgotten his key it would have been no good?
A. No, he had his key and could not get in. I understood Maggie to say he said he had forgotten his key.
Q. You did not hear him say anything about it?
A. I heard his voice, but I don't know what he said.
Q. I understood you to say he said he had forgotten his key?
A. No, it was Maggie said he said he had forgotten the key."

I think it's possible that Lizzie was just trying to fill in blanks here, too. It looks to me as though Lizzie really didn't know what had happened at the door – and she suggests that if Knowlton needs to know, he ask Maggie. Because the door was "always unbolted" -- it was unusual for Bridget to have to let Andrew in -- at trial she says she can’t remember ever having to do it before. So when he rang the bell, both Bridget and Lizzie may have “filled in a blank” and made an assumption that he didn't have his key. Bridget may even have said something to that effect as she went to open the door and Lizzie heard her. I would think that, wherever Lizzie was in the house when the doorbell rang, she would be listening to hear who it was.

[john]

So, and I say these things respectfully, because I'm not trying to smack what you have said, but there are about five points saying that Mr. borden had his keys, and perhaps one that says he doesn't have his keys. So what do you decide?
I don't know anymore than anyone else what went on in that house that day. But I think there are some things that we can generally figure out and say probably this happened. Regarding this forum, although i'm sure you all want it to be longgoing (sp?), I'm not sure that's the way to solve a crime. Take just the key issue for example. Now certain things came up about the key and keys, and right away most of the focus centered upon whether Abby could or did get back into the house. That's not an issue at all. It makes me wonder about this group's misfocus, although I like the way they are starting to think, not necessarily on the key matter.There are hundreds of issues relating to this or any case which could be addressed with thousands of pages of whatever junk you wanted to put into them, as, read back to the imbacillic questioning by knowlton, who was by no means an imbecille, but they don't solve the crime. My focus is to solve the crime and I think it can be done - watch - more to come. Now, if you think I'm just talking stupid, I've given them (your group) three solid issues - undisputible facts - that have never even been discussed in books on this crime, and this group has either ignored those issues, or just is too much with other thoughts. Now I've mixed in a few extraneous clues, and one person has caught them.
Here's another clue that has been totally ignored. Why did Dr. Dolen show up at Uncle Morse' neice door " a few minutes after Uncle John left"?.
Now if you can figure that out it's better than thinking about the door which doesn't matter anyway in the long run.

[Allen]

Lizzie denies saying she heard Abby come in -- but she does admit asking someone to look for Abby.

"Q. I want you to give me all that you did, by way of word or deed, to see whether your mother was dead or not, when you found your father was dead.
A. I did not do anything, except what I said to Mrs. Churchill. I said to her: "I don't know where Mrs. Borden is. I think she is out, but I wish you would look.
Q. You did ask her to look?
A. I said that to Mrs. Churchill.
Q. Where did you intend for her to look?
A. In Mrs. Borden's room."

And as we know, the women had already been up to Mrs. Borden's room for the sheets -- so the natural inclination now would be to check up the front stairs.

Here are some thoughts I put forward before in another post – but I’m sticking them in again to suggest why Bridget and Mrs. Churchill may have thought Lizzie said she heard Abby come in. It has to do with people’s need to make sense of things and their tendency to fill in the blanks in order to provide a logical construction.

And maybe they said it because Lizzie actually said she thought she heard her come in.

[Allen]

Take just the key issue for example. Now certain things came up about the key and keys, and right away most of the focus centered upon whether Abby could or did get back into the house. That's not an issue at all. It makes me wonder about this group's misfocus, although I like the way they are starting to think, not necessarily on the key matter.

How is it not an issue. If Lizzie said that Abby had said she got a note to visit a sick friend, and a a grand search was made for the note and it's author, how is her being able to get back into the house not an issue? It goes towards showing whether or not she ever left the house at all. Because there are people who think she did, because it was testified that she had.

[Kat]

I was looking at that same section, Diana. I read it over and over. Lizzie says it twice tho.
At first I thought "reasonable doubt" give it to Lizzie. Lizzie must have overheard Bridget grumbling as she went to the door. She had a wet rag and balancing a bowl of water and a stepladder involved. So she's muttering *He's forgotten his key!* as she goes to the door. But look at what Lizzie says. She says:
"A. No, he had his key and could not get in. I understood Maggie to say he said he had forgotten his key."
and then 2 answers after that again:
"A. No, it was Maggie said he said he had forgotten the key."

Maggie said he said....

But I do understand your point about assuming and filling in. I was thinking along those lines, but I am more tending toward the obvious.

[Kat]

"Q. If he had not forgotten his key it would have been no good?"
Here's another bit of phrasing in that section which confused me earlier today. It's 2 negatives and I can't quite fathom the point?

[Audrey]

So, and I say these things respectfully, because I'm not trying to smack what you have said, but there are about five points saying that Mr. borden had his keys, and perhaps one that says he doesn't have his keys. So what do you decide?
I don't know anymore than anyone else what went on in that house that day. But I think there are some things that we can generally figure out and say probably this happened. Regarding this forum, although i'm sure you all want it to be longgoing (sp?), I'm not sure that's the way to solve a crime. Take just the key issue for example. Now certain things came up about the key and keys, and right away most of the focus centered upon whether Abby could or did get back into the house. That's not an issue at all. It makes me wonder about this group's misfocus, although I like the way they are starting to think, not necessarily on the key matter.There are hundreds of issues relating to this or any case which could be addressed with thousands of pages of whatever junk you wanted to put into them, as, read back to the imbacillic questioning by knowlton, who was by no means an imbecille, but they don't solve the crime. My focus is to solve the crime and I think it can be done - watch - more to come. Now, if you think I'm just talking stupid, I've given them (your group) three solid issues - undisputible facts - that have never even been discussed in books on this crime, and this group has either ignored those issues, or just is too much with other thoughts. Now I've mixed in a few extraneous clues, and one person has caught them.
Here's another clue that has been totally ignored. Why did Dr. Dolen show up at Uncle Morse' neice door " a few minutes after Uncle John left"?.
Now if you can figure that out it's better than thinking about the door which doesn't matter anyway in the long run.

As much as I would like to think you might somehow have some provocative new information which would cause a new shift in the thinking of the case-- I am beginning to find your posts tedious. If you are planning a publication of some sort, bon chance!

I will eagerly pay my good money to buy it when it comes out.

If, however-- as a self proclaimed "dabbler" in Lizzie you are merely trying to jerk some chains... Let me assure you, it might work for a post or two but not much longer than that....

[Kat]

Repectfully, john, we have quite a bit of archive material for you to consider--years of it. Some people read that and then start here.

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/archive.htm

[Kat]

We passed each other again, Audrey.

[john]

OK - so if he had forgotten his key how could it be in his pocket?
Lizzie is firmly caught in a lie, unless Mr. Borden is senile.
And, of course, which I'm sure Kat has figured out, the reason for Lizzie to establish this is what?
Remember that Rolling Stones song, "Pulling Teeth Is Hard On Pliers?"

[john]

So you show me archive material that says either, the windows were by some chance closed by Bridget on the day of the murders because of the noise that would be broadcast outside, or that the note to Abby was actually mentioning someone visiting on Monday, and I will surely shut up.
If Abbey (? don't remember her name) doesn't want to believe that something we don't understand happened in the house that day, why is she here anyway. To pass French gass?
And if what I consider kind of a fun thing, hobby thing, is offensive to others because of my views maybe they should get a life. "Lizzie" is just a puzzle, and if you look back I said it will probably never be solved, and I said more than once, it was just a fortuitous for the perpitrator(s) perfect crime.
But I understand that I might be hitting too close to home for some, because I know for a fact that there are people (relatives) who don't want this crime to be solved. I know that there is fact knowledge that Lizzie was ostracized because the entire town knew what happened, except perhaps Victoria Lincoln, who was really a subterfuge. I know the reason that Lizzie didn't sue the Globe. I know some things but I don't know everything, and hope to learn from this discussion. As I stated when I welcomed you to bounce me earlier, I'm facing this like a detective would, not someone who is concerned with Lizzie's church club of three in 1892.
So before you bounce me, I will tell you that there is a "key." A "key" that reveals everything, and it's right before everyone's eyes. It's not the "keys,
" we havn't even touched it yet. And it's unquestionable, it's just something that no one has ever thought of before.
But I guess, as a man said about "Jack The Ripper," if he stood up in a crowd, and proclaimed he was the real Ripper, everyone would say, "who the hell is that?"
So with the Lizzie case, and I resent your saying, "John can tell us all about it," or some such thing, because look at all the jive you put up with that you never comment on. And some trick who wants to be in Paris, but is in Des Moines or dirtier, gets down on me for questionable reasons, you want to dump me.
I have recently had some time on my hands, and was kinda interested in the case a while back, and looked into it, and figured it out. I've read some books about "Lizzie," got some good and bad information, and tried to pass stuff along to keep the flow. I know I've gotten better with being nice, but I was an ........ ...... and I have never before been nice.
So if some chic from Dubuque can help you, dump me. If not, lets figure it out.

[john]

Furthermore, if you want me to refer to prior information lets that be a deal here. Not just me, but all the stuff you see has to be referred to prior information, then see where your room goes. I have always just asked to be treated as everyone else is, at law, in jail, in prison, by gooks, we all should be treated fairly and equally.
Well we're not, and we will never be, so you win Kat.

[john]

And, to Abberly, or whatever her name is, as they say in radio, "if you don't like it turn it off."

[Kat]

Well, when I posted inviting you to the archives, there was no Audrey post there. Now it looks like ganging up and I try not to do that- I've told you.
To be fair, I am taking small steps with you and hopefully you'll have some patience.

Now, what you said to Audrey is not nice at all and she'll probably blast you for it so put on your seat belt, it may be a bumpy ride.

[john]

I am beginning to find your posts tedious
as a self proclaimed "dabbler" in Lizzie you are merely trying to jerk some chains... Let me assure you, it might work for a post or two but not much longer than that....
- Abbrey
I've told you.
To be fair, I am taking small steps with you and hopefully you'll have some patience.
- Kat
Who isn't a "dabbler" in Borden - does anyone make a living at it? Yes I am trying to jerk some chains - is that incorrect? Is trying to get information out bad? Read above - where have you heard that before? If I have to call someone an idiot to get them to say something, maybe they're an idiot and maybe they're not, but they've still said something.
Sounds pretty one sided by you (Kat) against me (John). I've never even had anything to do with Abrey except that I once commented that she probably had her own page in the Iowa phone book, and she dumps on me like this and you blame me? And no I don't have any patience. I just expect equal treatment.
Read back to fair and equal treatment.
John likes Kat.

[Harry]

john, her name is Audrey. Let me spell that for you:

A U D R E Y

There, that wasn't too hard, was it?

She is a long-time member of this and the previous forum. Kindly address her with the proper respect.

[john]

OK, what was it again, Abley?
So you people ignore me and I ignore you - Abley has a French phrase for that.

[john]

And who do you think you are to tell me what to do? There is only one way in dialogue and in liking of people. Keep it that way.
Robert Frost liked to meet new people and to interact with new ideas for him. You bandon his name but are you like him at all?

[Haulover]

"I have recently had some time on my hands, and was kinda interested in the case a while back, and looked into it, and figured it out."

John -- Please address your quote above.

[Angel]

Well, we all know by now that John is very young and that he marches to a different drummer, and that can be tolerated. However, any adult knows that to give youth any kind of attention, even if it is negative, encourages rude and unacceptable behavior. Since everyone on this site has always treated others with the respect due them, we should continue
this and ignore any disruption and chaos, because ANY response to bad behavior feeds the disruptor's supply.
I have to congratulate all of you for the patience you've all shown so far. You've been a lot more gracious than I would be under the circumstances.

[Audrey]

Oh My.... The remark about about child sexual abuse damaged his waning credibility so severely I have no reason to continue with him. Dismissed

[Smudgeman]

John,

We ALL know you like Kat - we got that! Alot of what you post is jibberish. If you really have something valid to say, then by all means say it. Otherwise, spare us all the wasted time of rummaging through your ramblings.

[theebmonique]

John...I think what these fine people may in part be saying is put up or shut up. If you have some not previously discussed info that WILL solve this case, then PRESENT it...or shut up about it.

You seemed to be a very nice person, an interested in this case, kind of person when you started, but of late you just get all kinds of pissy when someone doesn't just suck up to what you say. We ALL have different opinions here about this case and it's details, AND WE LIKE IT THAT WAY. However...if you have THE KEY...which is not a key...SHOW IT. If you are writing a book...and can't show it now...just say so ! We would understand.

Don't get mad when we don't get what you are saying when you choose to speak in riddles. If you want to use a language other than English...that's fine too, as I believe we have people on this forum who can speak/read/write and understand at least 7 languages other than English. Take your pick.

DO NOT slam on A-U-D-R-E-Y. My dear sister is one of the finest, very top-notch, most knowledgable people on this forum. Plus, you will NEVER meet a more kind, loving, giving person...ANYWHERE. You could learn a thing or two about etiquette from her.

Because this is America, you have certain rights, however, among other things, I am offended by your use of the racial slam "gooks". One of my former students is from Vietnam. She came to this country at the age of 11...speaking absolutely NO ENGLISH. Now, she is about to graduate from college with a Bachelors degree in Business. While you have the right to your opinions, I would hope you would refrain from saying things that you know personally cause deep hurt to someone else.

John, if you want to play nice...we will welcome your posts and opinions. We all agree to disagree on somethings. We have to...or we wouldn't have the forum. Stef, Kat, Harry, and MANY MANY others have created this venue with research information galore for us to use, peruse, learn from, and create our opinions from...take advantage of that...DO NOT abuse it, mistreat it, or disrespect it.

I hope you understand what we are saying...if not, then..."Frankly my dear..."


Tracy...

[Allen]

I think it's safe to say Andrew had his keys with him that day when he got back to the house. They were found in his pocket after the murders. Unless this is the reason he went up to his room? To get the keys he had previously forgotten?

[Nona]

The whole Borden household is nutty if you ask me.......I find it strange first off......that security was such a huuuge issue in that house. Okay I know there were 2 burglaries in the house right (rumored to be Lizzie correct) what was stolen in those two burglaries anyway? Andrew had a safe in his room anyway why the importance of a lock?

But Why is everybody's individule rooms, and the hall closet .all require keys?????? And it seems like They all each had keys to everydoor anyway it just seems strange...like in a way each room was considered an apartment room for each. So many locks in a house scream SECRETS to me..and I don't think Lizzie was the only one. Why so many LOCKS? AND KEYS?

[Allen]

To get to Andrew's safe, you would first need a key to get in the door, either front or back. A key to get into Andrew's room, and then you would need to know the combination to the safe. Was the door to the room where the safe was located kept locked also? And weren't the drawers to his desk kept locked as well?

[Nona]

I can understand why he might be a bit paranoid about things he's the man of the house protecting his assets.........important bussness papers and deals and what not but what about everyone else? Did he not even trust his own wife? Did he lock her out as well?

[lydiapinkham]

John--
You need to use courtesy toward fellow posters on this forum. This is not a place for name calling aimed at us, ethnic groups, or anyone else. It is also not a place for baiting and insulting others. Stop the "And here's another clue for you all/The walrus is Paul" nonsense. This is not a game of 20 questions. It is a forum for civilized, informed discourse. I have seen very little of that from you. Please play by the rules, or don't play at all.

--Lyddie

[Kat]

The whole Borden household is nutty if you ask me.......I find it strange first off......that security was such a huuuge issue in that house. Okay I know there were 2 burglaries in the house right (rumored to be Lizzie correct) what was stolen in those two burglaries anyway? Andrew had a safe in his room anyway why the importance of a lock?

But Why is everybody's individule rooms, and the hall closet .all require keys?????? And it seems like They all each had keys to everydoor anyway it just seems strange...like in a way each room was considered an apartment room for each. So many locks in a house scream SECRETS to me..and I don't think Lizzie was the only one. Why so many LOCKS? AND KEYS?

There was one burglary of the house, but I believe there were a couple centered on the barn. Desmond talks about investigating the house robbery and so does Alice tell about what Lizzie had to say on these break-ins. It's a rumor during the grand jury that Lizzie was the culprit- but grand juries are sealed.

It's been posited before that since Andrew most probably had business matters/meetings in his home, that the inmates, all women, might seek to lock up their rooms etc. due to an influx of strangers.
Andrew might not have appreciated the potential threat to his womenfolk, by allowing just any possible renter in his home, and in his sitting room.

Dr. Kelly had an office in his home, so it's possible they kept things locked over there as well.

Anyone have any experience with a home business where the public can come in? What would you do?

[Nona]

Kat ,

Thank you for sheding alot of light on my curiosity....it puts alot into perspective for me......and maybe changes some of how I viewed Mr. Borden.......of course still not a great fun guy but still with that I see some good stuff in there......

That also makes me think maybe Lizzie didn't do it............maybe....who knows? Ill think some more.........

[Kat]

Well, I'm lucky that you take my word for these things.
I'd be willing to give sources but it's gracious of you to accept what I've said and consider it.

I wish to put the pertinent documents here, anyway, because not many have this resource, The Knowlton Papers, and you can make up your own mind. I have these "saved" on my computer so excuse the format.

From The Knowlton Papers, Sept. 9, 1892:

"HK067
Letter, typewritten, with enclosure handwritten in ink.


Enclosure:

On or about the 24 of June 1891 I Was called into City Marshal's office. 'Marshal Hilliard said "Mr Desmond, Mr Borden says his house has been robbed. You go with him, and see what there is to it." Mr Borden and myself left the office and went direct to Mr Borden's house Second St. I
found there Mrs Borden, Emma Borden Lizzie Borden & Bridget Sullivan.

On 2nd floor in a small room on north side of house I found Mr Borden's desk. It had been broken open. Mr Borden said "$80.00 in money and 25 to 30 dollars in gold, and a large number of H car tickets had been taken. The tickets bore name or signature of Frank Brightman."
Brightman was a former treasurer of Globe St. railroad co. Mrs. Borden said "her gold watch & chain, ladies chain, with slide & tassel attached, some other small trinkets of jewelry, and a red Russia leather pocket-book containing a lock of hair had been taken. I prize the watch very much,
and I wish & hope that you can get it; but I have a feeling that you never will." Nothing but the property of Mr & Mrs Borden reported as missing.

The family was at a loss to see how any person could get in, and out without somebody seeing them. Lizzie Borden said "the cellar door was open, and someone might have come in that way." I visited all the adjoining houses, including the Mrs Churchills house on the north, Dr Kelly's house on the south, Dr Gibbs house & Dr Chagnon's house on the east,
and made a thorough search of the neighborhood to find some person who might have seen someone going, or coming from Mr Borden's house; but I failed to find any trace.

I did get a 6 or 8 penny nail which "Lizzie Borden said she found in the Key hole of door," leading to a sleeping room on 2nd floor, east end of building. So far as I know this robbery has never been solved.
P .S. Mr Borden told me three times within two weeks after the robbery in these words "I am afraid the police will not be able to find the real thief.'"

"(Note: 'Capt. Desmonde' and 'Robbery Case' handwritten in lead and ink respectively on reverse side of document.)"
______________________________

What Alice wrote the prosecution about their Wednesday night chat:

"HK212
Letter, handwritten in ink.

June 2, 1893
Miss Borden told me she had written to Marion that she would come. I don't remember much that was said about the trip, except that she felt depressed, that she felt as if something was hanging over her and she couldn't throw it off. She said that while she was at the table the day she
was in Marion, and the girls were laughing and talking, that feeling came over her and one of the girls noticed it and said something about her not talking. That is all I can remember of our conversation about Marion.

Later on she said 'father and Mrs. Borden were awfully sick last night. I was too, but not as sick as they were, for I did not vomit and they did. I could hear them in my room. I asked them if I could do anything for them but they said no.' I asked Lizzie if she thought it was any thing they had eaten, she said 'we don't know, we had some baker's bread for supper and all ate some of it but Maggie, and all were sick but her. Don't know whether it was the bread or what it was.' I said if it was the bread I should think that other people would be sick too. She went on to say that she had thought perhaps the milk had been poisoned. I asked her about
the milk, how it was brought etc. She told me that they put out an empty can overnight. The milkman took it in the morning when he brought the milk. I asked her what time he came. She said 'she thought about 4 o'clock.' I said it is light at four, and I shouldn't think anyone would dare to come in and do anything to the can, for someone would be liable
to see them. She said 'I shouldn't think so.' She said 'her father seemed to have so much trouble with the men that he had dealings with, that she sometimes was afraid that some of them would do something to him.'
She added I expect nothing but that the house will be burned down over our heads. I don't know just what I said but she answered by saying 'Well they have broken into the barn twice anyhow.' I said yes, but of course they were after pigeons, it couldn't be they were after anything else. She
answered, 'they have broken into the house in broad daylight with Emma. Maggie & me in the house.' I said I never heard of that before. She said 'no father forbid our telling it.' I asked her about it and her story was this, as near as I can remember:
'Mrs. Borden's things in her dressing room were ransacked, and her gold watch & chain, money & cartickets were taken.' I think she told me there was something else taken but I can't remember just what. 1 think a pin or a charm. They also found a nail in the key hole. She told me her father reported it to the police but they didn't find anybody. She said 'father thought they might catch them by the tickets.' Lizzie remarked 'just as if anybody would be foolish enough to use those tickets.' She also told me about seeing a man run around the house one night. I asked her if she didn't think it was Maggie's company, but she hardly thought so.

She told me about a man that came to see her father. She heard him say I don't want to let my property for such business, and the man answered sneeringly, I shouldn't think you would care what it is let for. She said 'father was mad and ordered the man out of the house.' She
told me of Mrs. Borden going over to see Dr. Bowen.

Mrs. Borden said she was afraid they had been poisoned. Mrs. Borden met Mr. Borden in the entry on her way out, and told him where she was going. Lizzie said 'her father did not like it and said my money shant pay for it. But she went over.

I asked her what Dr. Bowen said she replied, he laughed when Mrs. Borden told what she feared, and said it was not poison.

Mrs. Borden had told the doctor about Mr. Borden's being sick and he went over to see him. Lizzie said 'the way father used Dr. Bowen - why I was so mortified. I don't know what the doctor will think I am sure.'

After he had gone Mrs. Borden scolded. She said I am ashamed for you to use Dr. Bowen so. Mr. Borden said 'well I don't want him coming over here Dr. Handy style.' Mrs. B. said he didn't come over here Dr. Handy style. I told him you were sick and he came over to see you and I
think it is a shame you can't treat him decent. He is all the neighbors we have got and I think it is too bad.'"

"Mr. Moody -
The foregoing is a substantially correct narative as I
remember it of the conversation which you wish me to give you.
Miss Russell
June 2, '93"

"(Note: 'Medley matter' handwritten in lead on reverse side of letter.)"
______________________________

Evening Standard
November 22, 1892, pg. 4

..."Chief Hilliard also told the members of the grand jury why it was that the mysterious burglar who stole Mrs. Borden's watch and property about a year before the murder was never publicly accused. This peculiar burglary has been frequently referred to as showing the possibility of an assassin entering the house and committing his bloody deed without discovery. The chief said he was satisfied that Lizzie committed the theft, and went on to say how he convinced Mr. Borden that such was the case. All the articles stolen at that time were the property of Mrs. Borden, and included, beside the watch and money, a quantity of free horse railroad tickets. A number of persons were found presenting free tickets who were not entitled to them. The police asked them where they secured these little pasteboards. They said Lizzie Borden gave them to them. Lizzie never had any of these tickets until after the theft from Mrs. Borden, so Mr. Borden requested that there be no further investigation of the matter.

A number of such points were brought to the attention of the grand jury which never before have been made public, and they added much strength to the case."