Kat,
Of course I trust you and your sources.I can tell by your post and charachter you are a reliable about these things and would not be misleading.!:)
As for the post Iam amazed, in awe really,.........it gets deeper and deeper the bits of information that come together to see the picture as a whole.......ahhhhhhhh except of course........without a doubt who the murder is.
However, I see these things, I believe Alice. I don't think she's lying one bit. It gets intresting like of course Lizzie is setting up.planting thoughts in peoples heads by two different ways.
1. The Robbery that happened 2 months before (in the same year correct?) as the murders in August.
(Of course it seems reasonable that she committed the robbery for reasons stated in your letter from Alice)
Originally I thought, Of course because she is a clepto.....wanted pretty things her father would spoil her with or to just get even.......but NOWWW......Im thinking she did commit the robberybut not for those reasons......I think she was trying to establish a line of possibility that the the murderS SHE KNEW SHE WOULD COMMIT could be someone else, by making it a possibility to bring up the unsafeness from that incident and cross it with the alibi that someone else could have commited the crimes.
OHHHHHHHH Lizzie is a sneaky girl and smart too......I can see by Alices letter Lizzie had been thinking of how timeline with the poision and if the milk could have been a factor......we know the milk was not poisioned.but again she planted the thought and was doing some forensic thinking getting Alice to do the same making her thing she only wanted to help "solve: the mysery of what made everyone sick .
Oh, going back to reason 2 from earlier stated (i do run on sometimes sorry)
Reason 2 After the murders......and everyone speculates maybe it was a stranger..........there is this that you posted.
She said 'her father seemed to have so much trouble with the men that he had dealings with, that she sometimes was afraid that some of them would do something to him.'
She added I expect nothing but that the house will be burned down over our heads. I don't know just what I said but she answered by saying 'Well they have broken into the barn twice anyhow.' I said yes, but of course they were after pigeons, it couldn't be they were after anything else. She
answered, 'they have broken into the house in broad daylight with Emma. Maggie & me in the house.' I said I never heard of that before. She said 'no father forbid our telling it.' I asked her about it and her story was this, as near as I can remember
Again, with the planting of the idea that someone could BOLDLY commit the crime in day light and with people in the house as well.....this is what I call FORESHADOWING:) I don't think even Stephan King could do a better job with a story.
NOt only do I think Lizzie DID THE CRIME I think she PREMEDITATED them sevral months or maybe even years?
And everyone seems to think she had to "PSYCE "herself up for the big kill........for how could anyone do that ragefully then calmy wait for the next victem the hack some more.........Well I think she'd already been "PSYCING" herself up for months already in her fantasy in her imagination.in her dreams.........she probably played it out in her mind a thousand times.........I think she was ready to do it.
Thats just my oppinion of course...........:) thanks for listening.:)
KEYS
Moderator: Adminlizzieborden
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Harry
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Nona, it doesn't seem to mention who the lock of hair belonged to.
Wouldn't it be ironic, if you believe Lizzie was the killer, that it was her hair? Lizzie was not yet 5 years old when Andrew and Abby married (June 6, 1865). I would doubt it was Emma's.
It also could have belonged to one of Sarah Whitehead's children, her niece or nephew. Just guessing.
By the way, welcome.
Wouldn't it be ironic, if you believe Lizzie was the killer, that it was her hair? Lizzie was not yet 5 years old when Andrew and Abby married (June 6, 1865). I would doubt it was Emma's.
It also could have belonged to one of Sarah Whitehead's children, her niece or nephew. Just guessing.
By the way, welcome.
I know I ask perfection of a quite imperfect world
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
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Kat
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"On or about the 24 of June 1891"- the day of the robbery.
The same day that Lizzie was named as Board Member of Good Samaritan Hospital and while Andrew and Abby were away in Swansea.
Notice that Desmond (Who happens to know these girls) specifies belongings of both Andrew and Abby- and that it was Andrew's desk, and lots of Andrew's money- Alice tells us that Lizzie decribed all of these articles of Abby's being taken, putting emphasis there.
It is very possible that the robbery was a rehearsal for the real thing a year later. But waiting a year? She must not have been too desperate?
I would think the hair could be her dead mother's.
The burn-the-house-down comment is the most damning, I think. It seems to show a rage which is smoldering. Why would Lizzie think a stranger would burn their house down?
If Lizzie did steal from the shops, and had started fires or thought about starting fires, that could be real, ongoing pathology.
The same day that Lizzie was named as Board Member of Good Samaritan Hospital and while Andrew and Abby were away in Swansea.
Notice that Desmond (Who happens to know these girls) specifies belongings of both Andrew and Abby- and that it was Andrew's desk, and lots of Andrew's money- Alice tells us that Lizzie decribed all of these articles of Abby's being taken, putting emphasis there.
It is very possible that the robbery was a rehearsal for the real thing a year later. But waiting a year? She must not have been too desperate?
I would think the hair could be her dead mother's.
The burn-the-house-down comment is the most damning, I think. It seems to show a rage which is smoldering. Why would Lizzie think a stranger would burn their house down?
If Lizzie did steal from the shops, and had started fires or thought about starting fires, that could be real, ongoing pathology.
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Susan
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Thanks for posting all that, Kat. Interesting in Alice's letter that reference to Dr. Handy, I've never read that before. I wonder what Andrew's thing was with Dr. Handy now?I wish to put the pertinent documents here, anyway, because not many have this resource, The Knowlton Papers, and you can make up your own mind. I have these "saved" on my computer so excuse the format.
“Sometimes when we are generous in small, barely detectable ways it can change someone else's life forever.”-Margaret Cho comedienne
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wintressanna
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It may be very difficult to paint a truer picture of who these Bordens were and what living in the household was like, truer and more accurate than what we'd like to believe or presume inbetween the cracks of the information we already have...
But even so, when I think about it I compare it in my head to other households I have known, I notice how like this one seems to ones in which there were a lot of interpersonal difficulties and manipulations going around. the big deal with manipulative personalities is not just asking others to accept a lie, over a long period of time, its more about asking others to piece out a whole picture that is inaccurate in order to cover up for a large accumulation of lies...accept certain rules for certain occasions, and others sometimes even contradictory ones to the first on separate occasions. The reason I mention this is because this sort of thing makes a murder case mired in muck.
Andrew may have had his keys, may have had the ability to enter the house without assistance, but for some reason or another wanted to make a point that day to get assistance through that door. Or maybe someone wanted to make a point by making it difficult for him to enter without assistance through that door, outside of the logistics of the crime. To some degree this, my point, is just a digression and it is important that we stick to the most significant issues instead of gettting bogged down on what could have been. But I did think it was important to say that people dont always do things in ways that would make sense, are most efficient. And people like this could possibily have done a lot of things in ways that made very little sense just to get on each other's nerves or manipulate each other.
There is some other phenomenon with human behavior I recently discovered that may or may not be relevant. There is a lot of difficulty with a lot of Lizzie's testimony, in piecing out what she really meant, but people are not all the same in how they talk about what they think is true. Apparently, there are people who remember what they said or did purely but what they wish they had said or done now rather than what they actually said or did then. I guess we all do that to one degree or another, but there are those who are extremely like that, especially those who are emotionally underdeveloped.
But even so, when I think about it I compare it in my head to other households I have known, I notice how like this one seems to ones in which there were a lot of interpersonal difficulties and manipulations going around. the big deal with manipulative personalities is not just asking others to accept a lie, over a long period of time, its more about asking others to piece out a whole picture that is inaccurate in order to cover up for a large accumulation of lies...accept certain rules for certain occasions, and others sometimes even contradictory ones to the first on separate occasions. The reason I mention this is because this sort of thing makes a murder case mired in muck.
Andrew may have had his keys, may have had the ability to enter the house without assistance, but for some reason or another wanted to make a point that day to get assistance through that door. Or maybe someone wanted to make a point by making it difficult for him to enter without assistance through that door, outside of the logistics of the crime. To some degree this, my point, is just a digression and it is important that we stick to the most significant issues instead of gettting bogged down on what could have been. But I did think it was important to say that people dont always do things in ways that would make sense, are most efficient. And people like this could possibily have done a lot of things in ways that made very little sense just to get on each other's nerves or manipulate each other.
There is some other phenomenon with human behavior I recently discovered that may or may not be relevant. There is a lot of difficulty with a lot of Lizzie's testimony, in piecing out what she really meant, but people are not all the same in how they talk about what they think is true. Apparently, there are people who remember what they said or did purely but what they wish they had said or done now rather than what they actually said or did then. I guess we all do that to one degree or another, but there are those who are extremely like that, especially those who are emotionally underdeveloped.
The happiest of people don't necessarily have the best of everything; they just make the most of everything that comes along their way.
unknown
Are you a carrot, an egg, or a coffee bean?
unknown
Are you a carrot, an egg, or a coffee bean?
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Kat
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I call it "Changing history."
I can think of some famous people who do that, especially when they write their autobiographies..
I guess what we look at so hard is the antics on the day of the murders. Before and after that can be more open to interpretation, like fooling around with the front door lock just to get Andrew's goat- on any given day- that's a new way of looking at it, thank you.
It's just this day, Thursday, that it feels like we have to look at it through a microscope.
I can think of some famous people who do that, especially when they write their autobiographies..
I guess what we look at so hard is the antics on the day of the murders. Before and after that can be more open to interpretation, like fooling around with the front door lock just to get Andrew's goat- on any given day- that's a new way of looking at it, thank you.
It's just this day, Thursday, that it feels like we have to look at it through a microscope.
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wintressanna
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I was thinking about Andrew and the door...maybe he wanted to mention something to Bridget and inobtrusively requested her attention by feigning difficulty with the door? It sounds preposterous to go through the embarassment except for a special purpose. I was also thinking if this might have to do with a sense of foreboding, wanting to have someone nearby just in case? But of course a gentleman at that time wouldnt risk a woman's safety...I dont know. Unless statements are inaccurate there seems to be some unusual to-do about that door.
The happiest of people don't necessarily have the best of everything; they just make the most of everything that comes along their way.
unknown
Are you a carrot, an egg, or a coffee bean?
unknown
Are you a carrot, an egg, or a coffee bean?
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Kat
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I've been preparing to go over the *Key* evidence once again, more thoroughly. I had given only the Preliminary Hearings info on *key* here so far.
I found something a bit odd in that Dr. Bowen does not mention the word key nor does his questioner, in his inquest testimony or his preliminary hearing testimony. There is no statement by him associated with any *key* in the Witness Statements. It is not until the trial that *key* shows up in Bowen's testimony.
I'd like to put it here- all there is by Bowen on the subject at the trial, which is negligible. Another reason to put that here now is to bring your attention to a typo which I just noticed and verified back to the hard copy.
Trial
Bowen
304
Q. Then what was done?
A. Then I asked for a sheet to cover up Mr. Borden.
Q. To whom did you address that request?
A. I addressed that to Mrs. Churchill and to Miss Lizzie Borden at the same time. They were both in the same room. And to Miss Russell. There were three there.
Q. What was done in consequence of your request? Describe everything that was done.
A. Bridget Sullivan brought me a sheet.
Q. Do you know whether any one went with her or not?
A. No, sir, I do not.
Page 305
Q. And I understand you, to be sure, that you do not know whether, any one did or not?
A. No, sir. I do not know.
Q. Do you remember anything with reference to the key of Mr. Borden's room?
A. Not at that time; I knew afterwards.
Q. You remember how that (sic)(they) got into Mr. Borden's room?
A. They got into Mr. Borden's room --- the key was usually placed, they said, on the end of the mantel of the sitting-room.
Q. Did you notice anything with reference to it, that day?
A. With reference to --- ?
Q. With reference to the key that day?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you get the key yourself, or did any one get it in your presence to give to those who were going for a sheet?
A. I don't know sir.
Q. You would not say, one way or the other?
A. No, sir.
Q. The sheet, you say, was brought back?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. In the meantime, had you had any conversation with the prisoner?
A. No, sir.
Q. What occurred after the sheet was brought back and was used upon the body?
A. Miss Lizzie Borden asked me if I would telegraph to her sister Emma.
Q. And in consequence of that, did you go to the telegraph office?
A. Yes, sir.
________
There was a *key* reference in the Witness Statements by Mrs. Dr. Kelly, and then this one by Mrs. Churchill, and that's all. I've started her statement in the middle of a sentence because she was mistaken as to the timing as to when they were asked to get the sheet, and I didn't wish to complicate things.
Witness Statements
Churchil
12
"...he asked for a sheet. Bridget Sullivan, the work girl, was afraid to go up stairs alone, so I went with her. Lizzie said we would find the sheets in the dressing room, which is off of Mrs, Borden’s room. I think we waited for a key to Mrs. Borden’s room, and I think Dr. Bowen went into the sitting room to get it. If I am not mistaken, he first brought out a bunch, but the one wanted was not among them; so he went in again, and returned with a single key. We then went up stairs, and Bridget asked me if two would be enough. I said I think so, one will cover a person."
....
I've only just started
BTW: Anyone notice any possible typos in the trial, let us know?
........
No one cared to ask Bowen about any key in court until June, 1893. Then, he was let off lightly.
What does this mean?
I found something a bit odd in that Dr. Bowen does not mention the word key nor does his questioner, in his inquest testimony or his preliminary hearing testimony. There is no statement by him associated with any *key* in the Witness Statements. It is not until the trial that *key* shows up in Bowen's testimony.
I'd like to put it here- all there is by Bowen on the subject at the trial, which is negligible. Another reason to put that here now is to bring your attention to a typo which I just noticed and verified back to the hard copy.
Trial
Bowen
304
Q. Then what was done?
A. Then I asked for a sheet to cover up Mr. Borden.
Q. To whom did you address that request?
A. I addressed that to Mrs. Churchill and to Miss Lizzie Borden at the same time. They were both in the same room. And to Miss Russell. There were three there.
Q. What was done in consequence of your request? Describe everything that was done.
A. Bridget Sullivan brought me a sheet.
Q. Do you know whether any one went with her or not?
A. No, sir, I do not.
Page 305
Q. And I understand you, to be sure, that you do not know whether, any one did or not?
A. No, sir. I do not know.
Q. Do you remember anything with reference to the key of Mr. Borden's room?
A. Not at that time; I knew afterwards.
Q. You remember how that (sic)(they) got into Mr. Borden's room?
A. They got into Mr. Borden's room --- the key was usually placed, they said, on the end of the mantel of the sitting-room.
Q. Did you notice anything with reference to it, that day?
A. With reference to --- ?
Q. With reference to the key that day?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you get the key yourself, or did any one get it in your presence to give to those who were going for a sheet?
A. I don't know sir.
Q. You would not say, one way or the other?
A. No, sir.
Q. The sheet, you say, was brought back?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. In the meantime, had you had any conversation with the prisoner?
A. No, sir.
Q. What occurred after the sheet was brought back and was used upon the body?
A. Miss Lizzie Borden asked me if I would telegraph to her sister Emma.
Q. And in consequence of that, did you go to the telegraph office?
A. Yes, sir.
________
There was a *key* reference in the Witness Statements by Mrs. Dr. Kelly, and then this one by Mrs. Churchill, and that's all. I've started her statement in the middle of a sentence because she was mistaken as to the timing as to when they were asked to get the sheet, and I didn't wish to complicate things.
Witness Statements
Churchil
12
"...he asked for a sheet. Bridget Sullivan, the work girl, was afraid to go up stairs alone, so I went with her. Lizzie said we would find the sheets in the dressing room, which is off of Mrs, Borden’s room. I think we waited for a key to Mrs. Borden’s room, and I think Dr. Bowen went into the sitting room to get it. If I am not mistaken, he first brought out a bunch, but the one wanted was not among them; so he went in again, and returned with a single key. We then went up stairs, and Bridget asked me if two would be enough. I said I think so, one will cover a person."
....
I've only just started
BTW: Anyone notice any possible typos in the trial, let us know?
........
No one cared to ask Bowen about any key in court until June, 1893. Then, he was let off lightly.
What does this mean?
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Kat
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Here's another interesting thing. We speculated that one key might open all interior doors. They do in my house.
Anyway, Lizzie says 2 keys are needed to either get into her room from the back stairs, or to get into the back stairs from her room. But that only tells us that those 2 rooms need each a key, not that all rooms each need a key?
Inquest
Lizzie
57 (14)
Q. Could you then get to your room from the back hall?
A. No sir.
Q. From the back stairs?
A. No sir.
Q. Why not? What would hinder?
A. Father's bedroom door was kept locked, and his door into my room was locked and hooked too I think, and I had no keys.
Q. That was the custom of the establishment?
A. It had always been so.
Q. It was so Wednesday, and so Thursday?
A. It was so Wednesday, but Thursday they broke the door open.
Q. That was after the crowd came; before the crowd came?
58 (15)
A. It was so.
Q. There was no access, except one had a key, and one would have to have two keys?
A. They would have to have two keys if they went up the back way to get into my room. If they were in my room, they would have to have a key to get into his room, and another to get into the back stairs.
.........
I don't know why she elaborated about both ways to get into her room. The emphasis was on the back hall entrance to the bedrooms on the second floor.
This situation may not have been due to any frostiness bewtween the Borden characters, but more possibly be because that's how former tenants, previous to 1872 when Andrew took over the house, protected their privacy. So maybe every door had its own key?
Anyway, Lizzie says 2 keys are needed to either get into her room from the back stairs, or to get into the back stairs from her room. But that only tells us that those 2 rooms need each a key, not that all rooms each need a key?
Inquest
Lizzie
57 (14)
Q. Could you then get to your room from the back hall?
A. No sir.
Q. From the back stairs?
A. No sir.
Q. Why not? What would hinder?
A. Father's bedroom door was kept locked, and his door into my room was locked and hooked too I think, and I had no keys.
Q. That was the custom of the establishment?
A. It had always been so.
Q. It was so Wednesday, and so Thursday?
A. It was so Wednesday, but Thursday they broke the door open.
Q. That was after the crowd came; before the crowd came?
58 (15)
A. It was so.
Q. There was no access, except one had a key, and one would have to have two keys?
A. They would have to have two keys if they went up the back way to get into my room. If they were in my room, they would have to have a key to get into his room, and another to get into the back stairs.
.........
I don't know why she elaborated about both ways to get into her room. The emphasis was on the back hall entrance to the bedrooms on the second floor.
This situation may not have been due to any frostiness bewtween the Borden characters, but more possibly be because that's how former tenants, previous to 1872 when Andrew took over the house, protected their privacy. So maybe every door had its own key?
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Kat
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Inquest
Lizzie
61 (18)
A. I think he came to the front door and rang the bell, and I think Maggie let him in, and he said he had forgotten his key; so I think she must have been down stairs.
Q. His key would have done him no good if the locks were left as you left them?
A. But they were always unbolted in the morning.
Q. Who unbolted them that morning?
A. I don't think they had been unbolted; Maggie can tell you.
Q. If he had not forgotten his key it would have been no good?
A. No, he had his key and could not get in. I understood Maggie to say he said he had forgotten his key.
Q. You did not hear him say anything about it?
A. I heard his voice, but I don't know what he said.
Q. I understood you to say he said he had forgotten his key?
A. No, it was Maggie said he said he had forgotten the key
--This sounds very definite and doesn't seem to be prevarication. Lizzie seems sure that Andrew had a key but still could not get in, that the door was always unbolted in the morning and it was Bridget who said to her that Andrew forgot his key.
This sounds sincere. It sounds like Bridget is misleading Lizzie here. Is Lizzie getting set up? I would tend to believe Lizzie's spontaneous answer here- but it contradicts the trial info that Lizzie or Emma were in charge of unbolting the front door in the morning. If not for that statement, this would be naively believable.
Lizzie
61 (18)
A. I think he came to the front door and rang the bell, and I think Maggie let him in, and he said he had forgotten his key; so I think she must have been down stairs.
Q. His key would have done him no good if the locks were left as you left them?
A. But they were always unbolted in the morning.
Q. Who unbolted them that morning?
A. I don't think they had been unbolted; Maggie can tell you.
Q. If he had not forgotten his key it would have been no good?
A. No, he had his key and could not get in. I understood Maggie to say he said he had forgotten his key.
Q. You did not hear him say anything about it?
A. I heard his voice, but I don't know what he said.
Q. I understood you to say he said he had forgotten his key?
A. No, it was Maggie said he said he had forgotten the key
--This sounds very definite and doesn't seem to be prevarication. Lizzie seems sure that Andrew had a key but still could not get in, that the door was always unbolted in the morning and it was Bridget who said to her that Andrew forgot his key.
This sounds sincere. It sounds like Bridget is misleading Lizzie here. Is Lizzie getting set up? I would tend to believe Lizzie's spontaneous answer here- but it contradicts the trial info that Lizzie or Emma were in charge of unbolting the front door in the morning. If not for that statement, this would be naively believable.
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Liz Crouthers
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Kat
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Lizzie and the key on the mantle:
84 (41)
Q. Did he not go up stairs to his own room before he sat down in the sitting room?
A. I did not see him go.
Q. He had the key to his room down there?
A. I don't know whether he had it; it was kept on the shelf.
Q. Don’t you remember he took the key and went into his own room and then came back?
85 (42)
A. No, sir.
Q. You don’t remember anything of that kind?
A. No, sir; I do not think he did go up stairs either.
Q. You will swear he did not?
A. I did not see him.
Q. You swear you did not see him?
A. Yes, sir.
--Again, if Bridget is lying, Andrew didn't go upstairs. If Lizzie didn't know if the key was even on the shelf, Andrew could not go up if there was no key. So if the key was taken from the mantle, and kept Andrew from going upstairs, why?
84 (41)
Q. Did he not go up stairs to his own room before he sat down in the sitting room?
A. I did not see him go.
Q. He had the key to his room down there?
A. I don't know whether he had it; it was kept on the shelf.
Q. Don’t you remember he took the key and went into his own room and then came back?
85 (42)
A. No, sir.
Q. You don’t remember anything of that kind?
A. No, sir; I do not think he did go up stairs either.
Q. You will swear he did not?
A. I did not see him.
Q. You swear you did not see him?
A. Yes, sir.
--Again, if Bridget is lying, Andrew didn't go upstairs. If Lizzie didn't know if the key was even on the shelf, Andrew could not go up if there was no key. So if the key was taken from the mantle, and kept Andrew from going upstairs, why?
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Harry
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Kat, my typed copy reads "they". Are you using the Rev. 2 of the Trial dated 05/09/2003?Kat @ Tue May 10, 2005 5:51 pm wrote:Another reason to put that here now is to bring your attention to a typo which I just noticed and verified back to the hard copy.
Q. You remember how that (sic)(they) got into Mr. Borden's room?
I know I ask perfection of a quite imperfect world
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
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Kat
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A front door key which the defense notes say was taken from Abby.
Lizzie says Andrew has a front door key that day but he can't get in.
Lizzie says Andrew did not go upstairs, (so maybe that key to his room was not on the mantle).
Is Bridget in this? Why do we believe her over Lizzie in everything?
(What does Tx mean?)
Lizzie says Andrew has a front door key that day but he can't get in.
Lizzie says Andrew did not go upstairs, (so maybe that key to his room was not on the mantle).
Is Bridget in this? Why do we believe her over Lizzie in everything?
(What does Tx mean?
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theebmonique
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Maybe I am way off here, (and I apologize ahead of time for 'so many' questions), but does this mean that a key was taken (found on her person) from Abby when they first discovered/examined her body ? If so, could that be why Andrew did not have go upstairs (according to Lizzie), because the key which he needed was not on the mantle as usual, but in Abby's pocket ? Maybe Abby had a reason for putting the key in her pocket ?A front door key which the defense notes say was taken from Abby.
Lizzie says Andrew did not go upstairs, so maybe that key to his room was not on the mantle.
Tracy...
I'm defying gravity and you can't pull me down.
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theebmonique
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theebmonique
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theebmonique
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Allen
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Well, I think I believe Bridget more because she seems more down to Earth. She was the only one who seemed to have the good sense to be truly frightened. I also believe Bridget over Lizzie because Bridget was FOND of ABBY...where Lizzie hated Abby with a passion. Lizzie tells so many obvious and detectable lies right from the beginning also. What reason would Bridget have to lie? She had no motive. Has anyone ever sat down and figured out just how many inconsistancies and out right lies are in Lizzie's testimony? As for the mantle key being in Abby's pocket, Dr. Bowen gave it to Bridget and Mrs. Churchill to get the sheets before Abby's body had even been found.Kat @ Tue May 10, 2005 11:24 pm wrote:
Is Bridget in this? Why do we believe her over Lizzie in everything?
(What does Tx mean?
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Allen
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Kat
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Tracy I think I misunderstood your question.
But I am referring to 2 different keys.
The mantle key and the front door key.
We've assumed that the mantle key is the only key to the elder Borden's bedroom?
Allen has a point about Bowen getting a key to the bedroom before Abby was found. But it could have been retrieved from Abby's body between the time Abby was killed and when Andrew might have needed it before he was killed.
So just that key not being on the mantle, if that was the only key and kept out for convenience of the two elders, would keep Andrew out of his room. Then that key could be retrieved from Abby's body, taken and used and then planted later after Andrew was dead. (If it's the only key).
It's stretching, but possible. We don't know what went on in that house from 9 until 10:40.
Another thing: I had asked this before and maybe we should take it into consideration? That Hiram was a blacksmith. Would he be able to make keys for people or is that out of a blacksmith's line?
But I am referring to 2 different keys.
The mantle key and the front door key.
We've assumed that the mantle key is the only key to the elder Borden's bedroom?
Allen has a point about Bowen getting a key to the bedroom before Abby was found. But it could have been retrieved from Abby's body between the time Abby was killed and when Andrew might have needed it before he was killed.
So just that key not being on the mantle, if that was the only key and kept out for convenience of the two elders, would keep Andrew out of his room. Then that key could be retrieved from Abby's body, taken and used and then planted later after Andrew was dead. (If it's the only key).
It's stretching, but possible. We don't know what went on in that house from 9 until 10:40.
Another thing: I had asked this before and maybe we should take it into consideration? That Hiram was a blacksmith. Would he be able to make keys for people or is that out of a blacksmith's line?
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diana
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I don't know if there's anything to this -- but Bridget certainly does her part to imply the key was on the mantle the whole time.
Re: Andrew coming downstairs first thing in the morning, Bridget says:
“A. He came down stairs; he went into the sitting room and put a key on the shelf in the sitting room.
Q. What key was it he put on the shelf in the sitting room?
A. The key of his bedroom door.
Q. Where did he ordinarily keep that?
A. In the sitting room.
Q. On the shelf
A. Yes, sir.”
And then re: Andrew coming in from downtown she says:
“A. The next thing I remember, Mr. Borden went out in the kitchen and come in the kitchen door, come from the kitchen into the sitting-room and took a key off the
mantel piece and went up stairs to his room.
Q. What key was it that he took?
A. The key of his bedroom door.”
She also says that, when she and Mrs. Churchill went up to get the sheets to cover Andrew’s body, she asked Dr. Bowen to “get the keys off the shelf in the sitting room, and he did so ….”. (Trial, 248)
Dr. Bowen doesn’t remember this. Yet it almost looks as though there may have been some attempts made to refresh his memory. As Kat has already posted --Moody asks:
Q: Do you remember anything with reference to the key of Mr. Borden’s room?
A: Not at that time; I knew afterwards. [ It looks like he’s trying to be helpful here.]
Then when he is asked if he remembers how they got into Mr. Borden’s room he says:
“They got into Mr. Borden’s room – the key was usually placed, they said, on the end of the mantel of the sitting-room.”
Q: Did you notice anything with reference to it, that day?
A: With reference to ---?
Q: With reference to the key that day? [Would there have been a note of impatience in Moody’s voice at this point, I wonder?]
A: No, sir.”
Q: Did you get the key yourself, or did any one get it in your presence to give it to those who were going for a sheet?
A: I don’t know sir.
Q: You would not say, one way or the other?
A: No sir." (Bowen, trial, 305)
Why did Bridget ask Dr. Bowen to get the key? A simple answer might be that she didn’t want to go into the room where the body was.
But what is Moody trying to get Bowen to say with reference to the key? And what does Bowen mean when he indicates he “knew afterwards” about the key?
Re: Andrew coming downstairs first thing in the morning, Bridget says:
“A. He came down stairs; he went into the sitting room and put a key on the shelf in the sitting room.
Q. What key was it he put on the shelf in the sitting room?
A. The key of his bedroom door.
Q. Where did he ordinarily keep that?
A. In the sitting room.
Q. On the shelf
A. Yes, sir.”
And then re: Andrew coming in from downtown she says:
“A. The next thing I remember, Mr. Borden went out in the kitchen and come in the kitchen door, come from the kitchen into the sitting-room and took a key off the
mantel piece and went up stairs to his room.
Q. What key was it that he took?
A. The key of his bedroom door.”
She also says that, when she and Mrs. Churchill went up to get the sheets to cover Andrew’s body, she asked Dr. Bowen to “get the keys off the shelf in the sitting room, and he did so ….”. (Trial, 248)
Dr. Bowen doesn’t remember this. Yet it almost looks as though there may have been some attempts made to refresh his memory. As Kat has already posted --Moody asks:
Q: Do you remember anything with reference to the key of Mr. Borden’s room?
A: Not at that time; I knew afterwards. [ It looks like he’s trying to be helpful here.]
Then when he is asked if he remembers how they got into Mr. Borden’s room he says:
“They got into Mr. Borden’s room – the key was usually placed, they said, on the end of the mantel of the sitting-room.”
Q: Did you notice anything with reference to it, that day?
A: With reference to ---?
Q: With reference to the key that day? [Would there have been a note of impatience in Moody’s voice at this point, I wonder?]
A: No, sir.”
Q: Did you get the key yourself, or did any one get it in your presence to give it to those who were going for a sheet?
A: I don’t know sir.
Q: You would not say, one way or the other?
A: No sir." (Bowen, trial, 305)
Why did Bridget ask Dr. Bowen to get the key? A simple answer might be that she didn’t want to go into the room where the body was.
But what is Moody trying to get Bowen to say with reference to the key? And what does Bowen mean when he indicates he “knew afterwards” about the key?
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Kat
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Well, from this we know that Bridget is saying she knew the key was on the mantle at just before 9 a.m., and just about 10:43 if true when she says Andrew took it to go upstairs. We don't know if he returned it do we? Does Bridget say he returned it? But Lizzie says Andrew did not go upstairs. She could be sure he didn't if that was the only key and she knew where it was and Bridget could be saying what he usually does, or making it up.
The reason the key might be important- and someone palming the key is to get into Andrew's room after Abby's dead to retrieve something to destroy or hide.
I've been saving Key facts today in a file and had collected a bunch but started posting right away. Thanks for putting it in timeline fashion, Diana!
The reason the key might be important- and someone palming the key is to get into Andrew's room after Abby's dead to retrieve something to destroy or hide.
I've been saving Key facts today in a file and had collected a bunch but started posting right away. Thanks for putting it in timeline fashion, Diana!
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Kat
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I just thought of something. It may be why Lizzie invented a note or thought there was a note?
If Andrew did not go upstairs when he returned, and he probably usually did, he may have gone for the key and if missing, he'd ask where it was, and was Mrs. Borden home? If Abby was home and no key out- he'd know he could go up to his room because she'd be there. (I wonder if they locked themselves in during the day?).
Anyway, what Lizzie spoke so low and slowly to Andrew upon his return could have been that tho the key was gone, upon his query, so was Abby out and she must have taken it, as she was called away, and he'd just have to sit down and wait, wouldn't he?
Bridget did not hear everything.
This would allow someone to take something from the bedroom, and also keep Andrew out of there so he wouldn't find out before he died.
(That's if there was just one key).
If Andrew did not go upstairs when he returned, and he probably usually did, he may have gone for the key and if missing, he'd ask where it was, and was Mrs. Borden home? If Abby was home and no key out- he'd know he could go up to his room because she'd be there. (I wonder if they locked themselves in during the day?).
Anyway, what Lizzie spoke so low and slowly to Andrew upon his return could have been that tho the key was gone, upon his query, so was Abby out and she must have taken it, as she was called away, and he'd just have to sit down and wait, wouldn't he?
Bridget did not hear everything.
This would allow someone to take something from the bedroom, and also keep Andrew out of there so he wouldn't find out before he died.
(That's if there was just one key).
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theebmonique
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I think this is much along the lines of what I was thinking. Although, I hadn't thought about this much detail when I first posted about Abby having a/the key in her pocket. Thanks, Kat and Diana, for helping me get a better picture of what I am thinking.I just thought of something. It may be why Lizzie invented a note or thought there was a note?
If Andrew did not go upstairs when he returned, and he probably usually did, he may have gone for the key and if missing, he'd ask where it was, and was Mrs. Borden home? If Abby was home and no key out- he'd know he could go up to his room because she'd be there. (I wonder if they locked themselves in during the day?).
Anyway, what Lizzie spoke so low and slowly to Andrew upon his return could have been that tho the key was gone, upon his query, so was Abby out and she must have taken it, as she was called away, and he'd just have to sit down and wait, wouldn't he?
Bridget did not hear everything.
This would allow someone to take something from the bedroom, and also keep Andrew out of there so he wouldn't find out before he died.
(That's if there was just one key).
Tracy...
I'm defying gravity and you can't pull me down.
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Kat
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(This still sounds fishy. Bridget says that Andrew had his key to the front door, prelim.189. Maybe she is trying to confuse things, telling Lizzie or another which Lizzie overheard that Andrew had no key to the front door, only to tell in court that he had? At this point, it seems Lizzie was being truthful, if you add voice inflection. She is admitting to being on the stairs and of having gone to her room and then Andrew came home).
I found where Bridget says she saw Andrew put the key back on the shelf.
Prelim
Bridget
Page 192 (22)
Q. That is the room that lets in from the back stairs?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did he bring the key back when he came back?
A. Yes Sir, and put it on the shelf.
Q. He sat down with a book or a paper near the window in the sitting room?
A. Yes Sir.
I found where Bridget says she saw Andrew put the key back on the shelf.
Prelim
Bridget
Page 192 (22)
Q. That is the room that lets in from the back stairs?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did he bring the key back when he came back?
A. Yes Sir, and put it on the shelf.
Q. He sat down with a book or a paper near the window in the sitting room?
A. Yes Sir.
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Kat
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Here are more keys. From the Prelim (posted earlier). They may need to be checked against the trial.
Dolan recalled: He opened the handkerchief in which he had stored the things the undertaker had given him and sounds surprised a bit to find 2 loose keys and a bunch of keys (on a ring). Earlier, he hadn't noticed one of the separate keys. 110(194).
Winward, the undertaker:
CROSS-EXAMINATION.
Q. (Mr. Jennings) Were these keys all upon the ring?
A. I do not remember; I should think they were; but I would not be positive about it.
Q. Did you not find either of the keys loose in his pocket?
A. I could not say; I do not recollect.
Page 359 (387)
Q. You do not remember whether you put any of the keys on the ring after you found them, or not?
A. I did not put any of them on the ring.
Q. So all the keys that are on the ring now, so far as you know, were there when you took them from his pocket?
A. They were.
Q. Do you recollect whether you found either of the keys in his vest pocket?
A. I should say not.
Q. You think they were all in his pants pocket?
A. Yes.
--It doesn't sound like he took these things off the body himself? At first he doesn't remember. It's suggested to him that he took them from a pocket. He might be saying all the keys on the ring now were there before without saying he took them out. Then when asked if he thought they'd been in the pants pocket he agreed.
We are trying to determine what Bowen did when he went to get what he thought would be a door key to Andrew's room- did he take keys out of Andrew's pocket first? If so, did Bowen leave them out or put them back? Why would Bowen put them back? Maybe he didn't. (As has been questioned earlier here). Maybe Winward is just not saying they weren't in Andrew's pocket?
Bridget says Andrew had a barn key, and after opening the barn door(217), it stayed open all day (240). Open may mean door shut but unlocked or it may mean door open, as in ajar or wide open.
When the searchers wanted the key to the elder Borden's room Fleet says they got that key from Bridget (334).
Bridget says she hasn't had her side door key"quite a year yet." (209).
Dolan recalled: He opened the handkerchief in which he had stored the things the undertaker had given him and sounds surprised a bit to find 2 loose keys and a bunch of keys (on a ring). Earlier, he hadn't noticed one of the separate keys. 110(194).
Winward, the undertaker:
CROSS-EXAMINATION.
Q. (Mr. Jennings) Were these keys all upon the ring?
A. I do not remember; I should think they were; but I would not be positive about it.
Q. Did you not find either of the keys loose in his pocket?
A. I could not say; I do not recollect.
Page 359 (387)
Q. You do not remember whether you put any of the keys on the ring after you found them, or not?
A. I did not put any of them on the ring.
Q. So all the keys that are on the ring now, so far as you know, were there when you took them from his pocket?
A. They were.
Q. Do you recollect whether you found either of the keys in his vest pocket?
A. I should say not.
Q. You think they were all in his pants pocket?
A. Yes.
--It doesn't sound like he took these things off the body himself? At first he doesn't remember. It's suggested to him that he took them from a pocket. He might be saying all the keys on the ring now were there before without saying he took them out. Then when asked if he thought they'd been in the pants pocket he agreed.
We are trying to determine what Bowen did when he went to get what he thought would be a door key to Andrew's room- did he take keys out of Andrew's pocket first? If so, did Bowen leave them out or put them back? Why would Bowen put them back? Maybe he didn't. (As has been questioned earlier here). Maybe Winward is just not saying they weren't in Andrew's pocket?
Bridget says Andrew had a barn key, and after opening the barn door(217), it stayed open all day (240). Open may mean door shut but unlocked or it may mean door open, as in ajar or wide open.
When the searchers wanted the key to the elder Borden's room Fleet says they got that key from Bridget (334).
Bridget says she hasn't had her side door key"quite a year yet." (209).
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diana
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But, if we believe Bridget, he did find the key on the mantel when he got home. She says that as she was still working on the sitting room windows: " . . . Mr. Borden came through the kitchen door, and took a key off his shelf, and went up into his room." (Prelim. p. 236)If Andrew did not go upstairs when he returned, and he probably usually did, he may have gone for the key and if missing, he'd ask where it was, and was Mrs. Borden home? If Abby was home and no key out- he'd know he could go up to his room because she'd be there.
I find it interesting that she calls it "his shelf".
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Kat
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I'm checking to see if Bridget is believable. At some early point in the questioning it's possible to believe one girl over the other.
She may be lying and interpolating what usually happens on any given day rather than having to make up something.
Just since she was present in the house when Andrew was killed, she should be a suspect.
Did anyone find that a cop took these personal effects off Andrew's body rather than the undertaker or Dolan?
She may be lying and interpolating what usually happens on any given day rather than having to make up something.
Just since she was present in the house when Andrew was killed, she should be a suspect.
Did anyone find that a cop took these personal effects off Andrew's body rather than the undertaker or Dolan?
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Kat
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Actually, didn't I post all Preliminary Hearing references to "KEY" earlier at the beginning of this thread? Because not everyone has it? Check back yourself...
Here is Bridget, again:
Preliminary
Bridget
174
Q. Did you have anything to do with shutting up the doors when you went to bed, or any of them?
A. Not except the back door, I locked that, had a key for it, when I got in.
209
Q. When you went out that night, did you have a key to the back door?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You left the screen door unfastened?
A. Yes Sir, but the other door was locked.
Q. You always had a key to that door?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. For how long?
A. I dont think I have had it quite a year yet.
--She's saying she hasn't had it for quite a year: Meaning she has had it less than a year.
231
Q. Did you go out Wednesday evening?
A. Yes Sir,
Q. What time did you get home?
A. Five minutes past ten.
Q. And had your key?
A. Yes Sir.
Here is Bridget, again:
Preliminary
Bridget
174
Q. Did you have anything to do with shutting up the doors when you went to bed, or any of them?
A. Not except the back door, I locked that, had a key for it, when I got in.
209
Q. When you went out that night, did you have a key to the back door?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You left the screen door unfastened?
A. Yes Sir, but the other door was locked.
Q. You always had a key to that door?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. For how long?
A. I dont think I have had it quite a year yet.
--She's saying she hasn't had it for quite a year: Meaning she has had it less than a year.
231
Q. Did you go out Wednesday evening?
A. Yes Sir,
Q. What time did you get home?
A. Five minutes past ten.
Q. And had your key?
A. Yes Sir.
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diana
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As to Bridget's 'his shelf' reference -- maybe it was just indicative of the patriarchal society she lived in. There must have been times when she felt as though the men owned everything ...
Bridget certainly kept her eye on that key, though. She seems to have noted each time Andrew collected it from that shelf and when he put it back. And at trial, when asked if she saw whether he took the key with him when he took up the pitcher of water after breakfast, she promptly answered: "Yes sir, he had the key in his hand".
The key appears to have a lot of import for her. Of course that makes sense; because in a house with so many locked doors, keys would represent power.
Bridget certainly kept her eye on that key, though. She seems to have noted each time Andrew collected it from that shelf and when he put it back. And at trial, when asked if she saw whether he took the key with him when he took up the pitcher of water after breakfast, she promptly answered: "Yes sir, he had the key in his hand".
The key appears to have a lot of import for her. Of course that makes sense; because in a house with so many locked doors, keys would represent power.
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Kat
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So when *they* took away Abby's key they took her power.
They relegated her to using the side door in her own home.
Also, Harry and I were talking about taking Abby's power today when Andrew let Lizzie pick the house paint. We were quite agog that he would pick Lizzie over any claim Abby had to choose the paint.
Are there any other instances of this kind of slow stripping away of Abby's influence in the house?
They relegated her to using the side door in her own home.
Also, Harry and I were talking about taking Abby's power today when Andrew let Lizzie pick the house paint. We were quite agog that he would pick Lizzie over any claim Abby had to choose the paint.
Are there any other instances of this kind of slow stripping away of Abby's influence in the house?
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Harry
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With moronic messages like this, the forum has begun to deteriorate to the level of a 6th grade class.john @ Fri May 13, 2005 5:03 am wrote:Well Kat, you and Harry seem to be good at watching paint drying. What hue did it dry to? Magenta?
I think I'll take a walk for awhile.
I know I ask perfection of a quite imperfect world
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
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Audrey
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theebmonique
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Kat
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Actually, we had a NASA TV channel here locally when the Shuttles used to go up with some regularity and I did once sit and watch what looked like paint drying in outer space. It was a science project a school contributed and they were growing crystals slowly and I watched for about a half hour.
I have patience.
Wait, watch, look closely- why not!?
http://florida-protein-crystals-in-space.org/
I have patience.
Wait, watch, look closely- why not!?
http://florida-protein-crystals-in-space.org/
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