Something pretty darn obvious but

wintressanna · Post by **wintressanna** » Sat Mar 19, 2005 12:28 am

it just occurred to me, how the killer did not do anything to disguise the fact that this was murder or hide the bodies. Isnt that somewhat unusual? I wonder if its a dare you to figure it out OR im smarter than you you cant catch me kind of killing, either that or just the killer had very little time to cover up. The violence suggests rampant hatred, but the set up is such that I kinda doubt it wasnt somewhat premeditated.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Mar 19, 2005 6:00 am

If a main result, or benefit, of the murders was for inheritance, these people would need to be found dead. If there was some important papers involved, like a will, they would have to be found dead that day and time.
We've come to question that if Lizzie did it, she even knew that investigation could tell that Abby died first? (Hence her push to have Abby's body found, seemingly)

The problem is in trying to understand how an intruder could have done the deed.
There is, at the web-site, a download available by Lundy:

The Mystery Unveiled - 1893 (pdf 388kb)
"By Todd Lunday. The full title is The Mystery Unveiled: The Truth about the Borden Tragedy: Fresh Light That Must Be Convincing to All Readers. A 56-page pamphlet, published immediately after the trial, in which the writer concludes that, with Lizzie Borden acquitted and no other suspect substituted, nobody committed the murders. "Todd Lunday" is the nom de plume for a writer whose actual identity is still unknown."

-Has everyone read this? It's fascinating.

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Resources ... dBooks.htm

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 3:23 am

I was looking for a place to post a newspaper's theory of Abby's murder. It might fit in here. It is from The Fall River Globe, Aug. 8th.
I wonder what people think of this theory?
It states the murderer closed the door and also hid out between the murders.

The "blood" mentioned at the end, in the Andrew killing, turned out not to be blood- that's the stringy spot on the dining room door jamb area. The blood under/near the window in the guest room, on the mop board, down near the floor has never been satisfactorilly explained. I agree with some of this news item, but not others: like how Abby got the flap-wound, though a lot of this makes sense. It's pretty long- please excuse:

"THE CRUEL BLOWS."

"Theory That Mrs. Borden Was Not Killed
at Once, Disputed."

"The theory that the first blow which Mrs. Borden received did not cause her death and that she turned and reeled towards the spot where she was found between the bed and bureau is not accepted by all of the authorities. Many of them still insist that life left Mr. and Mrs. Borden the instant the axe descended and they will never abandon that belief.

They state that the window in the spare bedroom must have been closed and closed with a purpose. Perhaps Mrs. Borden went to open it, as the morning was hot, and the axe descended. The first blow did not cut through the back of the head. It landed on top. The action of the heart stopped and the blood spurted out from the wound. There was but one direction it could take and it spattered the corner near the window where the spots were discovered.

If the blow which shaved off a piece of the scalp was the first blow delivered, Mrs. Borden would have thrown up her hands to ward off a second blow. She would have placed them above her head or in front of her face. Everybody does that instinctively. There is no exception to the rule. The second blow would have cut her hands or arms, but no marks were found on them.

Instead, it was evident from the position of the body when it was found, that the arms swung forward like pendulums and that the unfortunate woman fell with a crash, limp and lifeless. The arms were stretched out in front of her carried to that position by the impetus of the body forward. Then the fiend stood over her and dealt blow after blow. The blood did not spurt, because there was nothing to drive it. The heart was still.

It is fair to presume that the murderer became exhausted with his bloody work and that the blows toward the last were weaker than those first delivered. If this is so, the final blow missed the mark and took off a piece of the scalp. It is believed that the murderer closed the door and left the room after this murder was committed. If he waited some little time for Mr. Borden's return, he hid in another part of the house.

Whether the window was up or down when the body was discovered, is not known. Dr. Bowen says that he can not remember, but the general impression is that it was lowered. Otherwise the heavy fall of the woman would have been heard by the neighbors although it did not alarm anybody in the house. Mr. Borden's death was more noiseless. His head gave with the blows as it rested on a soft pillow.

The spots of blood found on the door are thought to have come from the dripping axe as it was swung back and forth. Every wound on his face and head would have caused instant death and the blood could not have been forced from the lounge to the door in any other way."

lydiapinkham · Post by **lydiapinkham** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 11:32 am

Thank you, Kat, I've never read this story. Is it in the Sourcebook?
The writer certainly knows all about the wounds and has thought through the possible sequence of blows very well. Did the police hold back any info that could be known only by the killer? Having all this in the paper on August 8 would have made for some very vivid false confessions (of which I know there were several). I wonder how they weeded them out? I know that some would have been obvious cranks who confessed to every crime that came up, but even the unbalanced ones would have to be considered in a case like this that has all the earmarks of a seriously disturbed attacker.

One thing that just occurred to me: has anyone ever suggested that an intruder could have hidden in Emma's room? It is just off the guest room, and no one would have had reason to go there. Much more comfortable for waiting than a stuffy old closet. . .

--Lyddie

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 7:06 pm

It is very interesting, but it doesn't fully address how Abby got that flap-wound. She must have gotten it from the front, as the flap of skin is at the back of the wound. The other representations of what happened does sound very possible- but I am wondering about that top-of-the-head wound. That might imply a taller person than Abby, at least taller than Lizzie, unless the person was standing on something which made them higher than Abby.
I've always wondered about that topofhead wound.

Hiding in Emma's room would be with the help of Lizzie, wouldn't it? She said her room was always locked.
Maybe hiding in Lizzie room, if they could get the communicating door open between the guest room and Lizzie's. Then, if they hear her coming, slip into Emma's room. Do we know if Emma's room was kept locked?

Wordweaver · Post by **Wordweaver** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 9:55 pm

Kat @ Fri Mar 25, 2005 4:06 pm wrote:.
I've always wondered about that top of head wound.

Maybe she was bending over as she made the bed. Or kneeling, picking something up off the floor. (Something that was later removed.) Or maybe even begging for her life. I can imagine her being too terrified to scream at the sight of the hatchet.

If she were already on her knees, that would also lessen the sound of her body hitting the floor.

Lynn

lydiapinkham · Post by **lydiapinkham** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 11:50 pm

I agree with Lynn about Abby's pose at the moment of the first strike. It just makes the most sense. (Lynn, there is a long discussion of that back in last year's forum.)

Kat, I know Lizzie's door would have been locked, but would the door between guest room and Emma's be locked in her absence? (This is strictly abstract here, because I don't think anyone was hidden anywhere; still, in fairness, I like to try out the scenario.)

--Lyddie

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 11:56 pm

Wordweaver @ Fri Mar 25, 2005 9:55 pm wrote:
Maybe she was bending over as she made the bed. Or kneeling, picking something up off the floor. (Something that was later removed.) Or maybe even begging for her life. I can imagine her being too terrified to scream at the sight of the hatchet.

If she were already on her knees, that would also lessen the sound of her body hitting the floor.

Lynn

That's a very plausible explanation. I find that scenario very easy to imagine.What has always bothered me about Abby's killing is the position her body was found in. Her body is so perfectly positioned straight up and down, feet together, arms beneath her. Her feet are upturned with the heels facing upwards. It's almost as if she laid herself down on the floor, or was laying on the floor trying to see something under the bed. You would think if she was struck down from a standing position the feet would be outstretched when she fell, by that I mean further apart. Who falls from a standing position, especially during an attack, with their feet perfectly together and the bottoms of their feet perfectly upturned? If she was struck while bending down, how again are her feet so perfectly together, and her body so perfectly outstretched? The way her arms are positioned seems odd to me as well. Her feet are sticking out slightly past the edge of the bed frame. It appears they would be visible from the doorway. Which indicates, to me anyway, she was not standing in between the bed and the bureau as most would believe when she was attacked. If she was standing in between the bed and the bureau, I do not think her feet would be sticking out past the edge of the bed frame as they are. Did anyone make any mention in the reports as to whether or not the bed had actually been made in the guest room? The basins of water in the bed rooms have been mentioned in testimony and in witness statements. These basins were used for bathing and the like. The slop pail for Lizzie's room and the one for the elder Borden's room is mentioned. What about the guest room? Were none of these provided for Uncle John during his stay? Without putting to fine a point on it, how did Uncle John do his business?

This picture is from the Lizzie Andrew Borden Virtual Museum and Library under the crime scene photos.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 2:19 am

If Abby was kneeling her legs would be in the way of a topofthehead first blow, or else a person needed a long handled hatchet or straddle Abby's legs for the first hit, wouldn't they? Otherwise they might lose their balance reaching out to hit the top of her head and topple over themselves. They would have to come in very close, no matter which, unless she was kneeling facing the street?

Her top of the head wounds were thus:

"2. Was exactly on top of the skull one inch long penetrating into but not through the skull.

3. Was parallel to No. 2, one and 1/2 inches long, and penetrating through the skull."

--2 wounds, parallel. I guess we don't know parallel in which direction tho?
She could have been turning her head. But 2 wounds? For them to be parallel she would have to be stationary, wouldn't she?

The door from the guest room opens into Lizzie's room. There was a desk up against it in Lizzie's room. That's why I had to stretch that scenario to fit the theory of someone hiding in Emma's room without Lizzie's knowledge.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 2:26 am

Abby's arms were moved compared to what we see in the photographs. They were up around her head pretty much as the newspaper described. That's one reason that theory sounds so believable- meaning they really were trying to get it right.

It is odd that her feet are stretched out that way, like a tree which was chopped down.

Abby's legs were sticking out a ways from the end of the bed and could be seen by Dr. Bowen from the doorway. Not the landing, as Mrs. Brigham tried- but the doorway.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 5:13 am

Kat @ Sat Mar 26, 2005 2:26 am wrote:Abby's arms were moved compared to what we see in the photographs. They were up around her head pretty much as the newspaper described. That's one reason that theory sounds so believable- meaning they really were trying to get it right.

It is odd that her feet are stretched out that way, like a tree which was chopped down.

Abby's legs were sticking out a ways from the end of the bed and could be seen by Dr. Bowen from the doorway. Not the landing, as Mrs. Brigham tried- but the doorway.

Well if all this is true, then I believe that Abby was not standing in between the bed and the bureau as it is so often described. If she was, I do not see how her feet could've been sticking out from the edge of the bedframe. I just do not see that as likely. Her body should've been situated closer to the wall behind the bed if this was the case, in my opinion.

"Instead, it was evident from the position of the body when it was found, that the arms swung forward like pendulums and that the unfortunate woman fell with a crash, limp and lifeless. The arms were stretched out in front of her carried to that position by the impetus of the body forward. Then the fiend stood over her and dealt blow after blow. The blood did not spurt, because there was nothing to drive it. The heart was still. "

If she fell forward, how are her feet and legs still so close together, feet turned upward perfectly?That strikes me everytime I look at the pictures. The more I look at the pictures, and the more I picture Abby's arms raised above her head as described, the more it assumes the pose of a person who has been dragged. Was she dragged to her ultimate position?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 5:44 am

With that roll of material at her waist it does look like she was dragged.
But let me ask you please, when you say she wasn't standing between the bed and the bureau, do you mean she was there but was kneeling, as opposed to standing- or she wasn't killed by the bed at all?

A problem might be that there are 2 chairs missing from the photo. There was a camp chair (like a folding chair) at the wall at the head of the bed. There was a rocker at the end of the bureau by the window.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 1:31 pm

Kat @ Sat Mar 26, 2005 5:44 am wrote:With that roll of material at her waist it does look like she was dragged.
But let me ask you please, when you say she wasn't standing between the bed and the bureau, do you mean she was there but was kneeling, as opposed to standing- or she wasn't killed by the bed at all?

A problem might be that there are 2 chairs missing from the photo. There was a camp chair (like a folding chair) at the wall at the head of the bed. There was a rocker at the end of the bureau by the window.

I mean I don't think she was killed in that spot between the bed and the bureau at all. I don't see how she could've been and her feet have come to rest so far past the bed.Well, unless she was dragged into that position of course.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 1:39 pm

Another question, if Abby was found with her arms above her head or around her head, why were the arms replaced beneath the body? The hands are underneath her face, why were the repositioned in this way?

lydiapinkham · Post by **lydiapinkham** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 6:02 pm

Thanks, Kat, I have always misread the diagrams to say that Emma's room could be reached from Lizzie's room or the guest room. As Emily Litella used to say, "Never mind."

I do think she was kneeling when struck, but what with the furniture moving and myriad helpful hands there's no telling how much her body may have been rearranged to llok more dignified, etc.

--Lyddie

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 6:39 pm

I'm also thinking "to look more dignified."
Dr. Bowen could have moved her body- the papers seem to think he's not telling all he knows. Maybe he's just not admitting the true position of the body?

Bertha Manchester's body was found in a very ugly and somewhat compromising position with a leg bent under her and her skirt askew and clothing tattered after her axe attack, and it was widely reported in the newspapers.
Of course, that happened after the Borden murders, but Dr. Bowen might have adjusted Abby a bit seeing as she was a rich upstanding neighbor.

Doesn't he admit to moving Abby's arm?
She was also turned over somewhat and put back.

Witness Statements, pg. 1 George Allen:
..."The Marshal gave him orders to go right up to Mr. Borden’s house. He was there by twenty five minutes past eleven o’clock A. M. Just before we got there, Officer Doherty was ahead of us. When we went up stairs the Doctor said Mrs. Borden had fainted with fright. Officers Mullaly and Doherty turned her over. Officer Doherty said 'My God her face is all smashed in.'”

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 6:57 pm

Yes, Lyddie, it's a very confusing set-up. In fact, I labeled the doors to Lizzie's room for my "House" project" in The Hatchet. That was months ago. I didn't publish it tho, after all- but I knew it would be helpful to anyone

and so it came in handy after all!

We just remember the set-up is the same as the parlour door downstairs abutting into the sitting room.

Nona · Post by **Nona** » Sun Mar 27, 2005 4:59 am

Allen I like that idea........sounds like a very good could be.........

If she fell forward, how are her feet and legs still so close together, feet turned upward perfectly?That strikes me everytime I look at the pictures. The more I look at the pictures, and the more I picture Abby's arms raised above her head as described, the more it assumes the pose of a person who has been dragged. Was she dragged to her ultimate position?
_________________

BUT IF SHE WAS DRAGGED......the killer would have to 10 Put the axe down . There would be some pool or outline of blood from the weapon And 2, there would be blood smears on Mrs Borden on her arms legs or hands from whom she was pulled by..........UNLESS the murder had help...........one to commit the murders and the other to be a "spotter" for missed blood.or help clean up thier partner.to help make sure nothing looks out of place....... I truley think this was very calculated.

Nona · Post by **Nona** » Sun Mar 27, 2005 5:01 am

Kat thank you for the pics you are amazing it helps make everything so much clearer.just wanted to let you know your appreciated!!!!

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Sun Mar 27, 2005 11:08 am

Or...MAYBE she was knocked out first...then dragged between the bed and the dressing table...THEN her head was whacked upon with wild abandonment...

Tracy...

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Mar 27, 2005 4:13 pm

You're welcome, you guys.

Bertha Manchester left bloody crawl marks on her kitchen floor, and 2 distinct pools of blood. So it could be deduced that she was attacked in one place and ended up a few feet elsewhere. (It was also supposed that she had been knocked out- but at what point?) That was a struggle, though. Left a lot of blood everywhere.

Abby's getting knocked out first makes sense, because there would be less chance of multiple screams.

There is some theory by experts at the time that Abby might have been standing nearer the window than in front of the bureau. Her body seems to have ended up about half-way up the narrow strip toward the east wall where the bed-head is. Dolan said it was maybe 4 feet from that wall. There was a chair there between the wall and Abby's head.

It might seem a bit obvious that her body had been moved. But probably not very far- distance wise, unless she wasn't bleeding when moved.
-------

With 2 blows on top of her head and a frontal flap-wound to account for maybe:

She was kneeling, she turned to see who approached or to speak face to face, toward her left, toward the window. She gets knocked out in the face by the blunt end of the hatchet. She falls on her back, semi-conscious, whimpering. She receives the face-frontal flap wound next, to the left side of her scalp/ear area, she turns over instinctively, like a reaction. Then any blows after -in whatever order- but those top-of-the-head blows would be while she was stationary- any parellel blows might imply she was finally stationary.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Sun Mar 27, 2005 6:54 pm

That's sounds VERY right Kat...VERY right.

Tracy...

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sun Mar 27, 2005 9:35 pm

Kat @ Sun Mar 27, 2005 4:13 pm wrote:
She was kneeling, she turned to see who approached or to speak face to face, toward her left, toward the window. She gets knocked out in the face by the blunt end of the hatchet. She falls on her back, semi-conscious, whimpering. She receives the face-frontal flap wound next, to the left side of her scalp/ear area, she turns over instinctively, like a reaction. Then any blows after -in whatever order- but those top-of-the-head blows would be while she was stationary- any parellel blows might imply she was finally stationary.

Kneeling in what location? Where would she be kneeling in this scenario? And shouldn't there be blood spatter in this area?

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Sun Mar 27, 2005 10:25 pm

I may ramble a bit with this...but here goes...

I am thinking it's possible that she was kneeling down near the end of the bed, or was starting to get up from a kneeling position, grabbing hold of the corner of the dressing table or the end of the bed to brace herself (so maybe facing...W-NW-ish ?)...turned to her left, as Kat stated, was hit in the front of her head at least once by the butt end or handle of the axe, and then possibly incurring the other front of the head wounds by hitting the dressing table or the footboard post...knocked "semi-senseless" or dazed...begins to fall backward to the floor, between the bed and the dressing table...the attacker takes the first big whack as she starts to fall back...the frontal flap wound is incurred (left-side, non-skull penetrating)...being dazed or semi-conscious, Abby realizes someone is after her and rolls over to protect herself and in her mind, 'away' from the attacker. If this happens fast enough, the blood may not really 'have a chance' to make some big splatter pattern, especially if Abby was in any way able to instinctively put her hands and arms up in front of herself as she rolled over. Then as she rolls over, she goes completely unconscious, and dies. But, the attacker does not realize she is dead...and whacks away at her head.

I still think we should look at the possibility that once Abby was face first on the floor, that maybe the attacker realized there was not enough room to get good leverage for whacking and finishing the job, and decided to go around and come from across the bed. A few of us discussed this possibility a while back and came up with what I thought were some very plausible scenarios.

My information about the location and depth of the wounds comes from the autopsy report.
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Crime ... Borden.htm

Tracy...

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sun Mar 27, 2005 11:18 pm

Attacking from the bed? I have many problems with the idea that the killer went across the bed while attacking. Also as for the facial flap wound being inflicted and there woudn't be time for the blood to make a splatter pattern? I have doubts about that as well. I wasn't talking about a big splatter pattern, but just some blood droplets even. Especially if she was "semi senseless or dazed". The position of the body still strikes me as not occuring through a natural motion of any kind made by Abby. I'm really looking forward to taking the classes that involve analysis of blood spatter patterns. Maybe it will help me clear up any unanswered questions I have. Until then, I'm still just guessing.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 1:07 am

Attacking from the bed? I have many problems with the idea that the killer went across the bed while attacking. Also as for the facial flap wound being inflicted and there woudn't be time for the blood to make a splatter pattern? I have doubts about that as well. I wasn't talking about a big splatter pattern, but just some blood droplets even. Especially if she was "semi senseless or dazed". The position of the body still strikes me as not occuring through a natural motion of any kind made by Abby. I'm really looking forward to taking the classes that involve analysis of blood spatter patterns. Maybe it will help me clear up any unanswered questions I have. Until then, I'm still just guessing.

Melissa...would you mind explaining what your "problems" are with the attacker going across the bed, and your "doubts" about why there is not enough time for the blood to make a splatter pattern if Abby turns over quickly or puts her hands up in front of/around her face to protect herself (preventing splatter) ? I am interested in what you are thinking specifically.

(A previous discussion about the "over the bed" idea came from the LAB section...in the Susan, I Found It! What's been moved... thread...beginning Mon Jul 19, 2004 12:25 pm)

Tracy...

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 4:41 am

Here's the link:

viewtopic.php?p=2884#2884

Tracy and I were looking for the link and she found it! It's a good discussion with photos!

When I said kneeling, earlier I said she was more by the window:
" There is some theory by experts at the time that Abby might have been standing nearer the window than in front of the bureau. Her body seems to have ended up about half-way up the narrow strip toward the east wall where the bed-head is. Dolan said it was maybe 4 feet from that wall. There was a chair there between the wall and Abby's head."--Kat

This is to account for the blood on the mop board around the corner of the bureau, under/near the window. I think Abby can be kneeling (everyone wants her kneeling though the expert at the time said *standing facing*) near the window near the foot of the bed. Wasn't she working on putting the pillows at the foot of the bed? Then when she falls face down her feet are sticking out at that length described and her head would be even with the middle of the bureau.

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:49 am

Does anyone know if Lizzie was left or right handed?
I always go back to thinking maybe something was given the victims to make them either very sleepy or nonresponsive before they were attacked. Is there any kind of medication that was tasteless that could have been put in water or tea or milk? Or could Lizzie have used something like Digitalis to have caused the nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, fatigue in the family the day before and adinistered a fatal dose just before the murders to incapacitate them first? Maybe Abby fell down from the effects and it was at that time when she was attacked. She could have been dragged from the window to the side of the bed where she wouldn't have been seen so easily before she was finished off.
I wonder if either Abby or Andrew was on heart medication. Lizzie could have had access to it that way. Or maybe she had some way of getting it from the good doctor with or without his knowledge. Maybe that's why he was acting so squirrely. Maybe, maybe, maybe. I've had too much coffee this morning.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 10:47 am

Kat, thanks for including the link. I neglected to do that.

Tracy...

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 10:29 pm

Well I haven't taken the classes that involve the blood pattern analysis, but I have always been interested in the subject. I believe it tells the most about the crime scene. It's as if the killer and the victim are painting a gruesome picture of what took place in that room in blood. I believe if we had a better idea of the blood patterns it would help greatly.But if the killer attacked from the bed, even laying down on their stomach there should've been more spray on the dressing table and the mirror. Their should've been an arc, or cast off spray. The blood patterns are all low down on the wall, which leads me to believe the person was bending over Abby, in such a way that the axe might not have been swinging that far from the ground. Short blunt chops instead of a real swinging motion. If they were laying on the bed, they would've had to swing the axe higher so there should've been an arc. The only way I can see an attack from over the bed happening is if the person was lying on their stomach.The bed sits up off the floor, and Abby was laying face down on the floor and still being struck, how would they reach her otherwise? If they were kneeling on the edge of the bed, it would be hard to keep their balance as they struck her, and the axe would've been swinging up a great deal higher and their definitely should've been an arc. Attacking from the bed, the mattress isn't all that firm of a surface to stand on, I would think it would be harder to keep your footing or inflict a death blow in this way. It would also be impossible to strike Abby as she lay on the floor from a standing position. The blood evidence listed on the LABVML states that the front of her dress was covered in blood. This is what makes me think the wound bled out before she ended up face down. The flap wound did not "have time to bleed" as you stated, which is something I still have doubts about. The blood was probably still pumping through her heart when this wound occured.

Some interesting links and information about blood pattern analysis.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Cast off. Blood droplets that follow a path or an arc, in order with the curvature of the movement of the weapon, drops at bottom will be going in one angle, some will be at 90 degrees, and those at the other end of the arc will be going in another direction. There will be two kinds of directionality. A two by four would have two lines of cast off. Difficult to read and often will be in crazy places (cast off will be on ceilings and walls). You will have an 'arc' of cast off. Will tell which way the person is beating, or stabbing and which hand the person is using. If someone is laying there dead and there is cast off, the person has been hit two times. The first strike does damage and the blood pools in the wound, the second strike does cast off.

Longer the droplet, shorter the angle.

http://jimtrue.com/school/cjt1111/000066.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Blood projected at velocity exceeding that of gravity often results in a spatter pattern wave irregular spiny edges around the central bloodstain. Running or stepping into a pool of blood is typical of this pattern. Blood may also be cast off a bloodstained weapon. Such staining it is often apparent on the walls and ceiling in indoor situations. The direction and origin of the backswing is often clearly discernible. The number and sequence of swings may also be discernible.

Medium velocity blood spatter (slide 54-57)
Blood source subjected to a medium velocity impact (about 7.5-30 m/s pr 25-100 ft/s)

e.g. blows with a baseball bat, hammer, axe or similar instrument

Blood spots typically about 4 mm in diameter

http://www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedicin ... patter.htm
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.forensic-lab.com/publication ... html#types

http://www.bloodspatter.com/BPATutorial.htm

http://akininc.com/PDFs/BSI%20FBI-LE%20 ... %20spatter'

john · Post by **john** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 11:41 pm

Kat - and don't tell anybody I told you this, so this is yours - did you ever think there might be curtains on the windows of the guest room?

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 12:14 am

Melissa,

I did not say that it didn't have time to bleed, I said it didn't have time to make a splatter pattern. Honest, if you will go back and read the previous discussion about the over the bed idea, you will find that it is mentioned about the attacker being belly-down on the bed. We discussed the attacker lying across and being lengthwise on the bed I believe. We didn't think that kneeling on the bed was a probable scenario.

If the chops were "short and blunt", how would there be enough leverage to penetrate the skull ?

Tracy...

john · Post by **john** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 12:47 am

Are you an "expert" Allen who's spent his life studying this crime? Then ask Kat how Abby died. Ask me how the murderer got away - and I won't tell you.
I'm giving too many clues - shut down bye - on to San Diego and my pretty sister.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 12:59 am

I think the point being made here is that the old folks were drugged or unconscious before being hacked to death. I think it's apparent that some believe this a possibility and point to lack of blood as proof.

The theory was bandied about in the Fall River Globe, on the day of the funeral, Sat. Aug. 6th:

"The circumstances surrounding the case grew clearer and they pointed in the police mind to a murderer or murderess who was in the house before Mr. Borden arrived, and knew the details of every room there. Moreover, the person or persons who committed the murder were tolerably familiar with the habits of the dead people.

At midnight it was very widely believed by the police and others, that the two aged victims were at least semi-unconscious when the cutting and battering began. How could they have become unconscious? In a thousand ways and the particular way will soon be made public by the police unless all signs fail."

--This was very new crime reportage and the earliest reports were somewhat skewed. However, the paper claims that the Bordens could have been made unconscious in "a thousand ways."
What other ways, besides being physically knocked out first, or slightly poisoned?
(Why does one, inexperienced, slightly poison someone? Do they wait for the ill effects, following them around until they fall, then attack?)

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 1:02 am

Well I did read the link supplied about the over the bed scenario before I posted the last post. I got a bit confused when reading it as to how it was proposed to have happened because the scenario seemed to be changing along the way, but I did read it all. As for there being enough leverage to penetrate the skull, if it was swung forcefully enough a short blunt chop would still do the job I would think. I don't know if short and blunt is the best way to describe what I'm thinking, but I can't come up with a better phrase. I was thinking the axe was never technically raised above the attackers head, because there doesn't seem to be an arc. If they were bent over Abby, using two hands to swing the weapon, they wouldn't be raising the axe above their head. If I could figure a better way to describe what I'm talking about it would make more sense if you could see what I'm saying, but I can't think of a way to do that

.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 1:08 am

john @ Tue Mar 29, 2005 12:47 am wrote:Are you an "expert" Allen who's spent his life studying this crime? Then ask Kat how Abby died. Ask me how the murderer got away - and I won't tell you.
I'm giving too many clues - shut down bye - on to San Diego and my pretty sister.

Not my whole life, but I've been studying it and reading about it for about the last 14 years, ever since I was a teenager. It is one of the biggest fascinations of my life, or else I would not have taken my honeymoon at the B&B, and then went back for a second visit after that.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 1:20 am

I think we first passed each other posting, Allen.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 1:21 am

Yes we did at that

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 1:29 am

Yes, we did discuss a couple of different angles on the over the bed idea. I think I get what you are saying about short and blunt. I am just not sure I can agree with it...for now anyway.

Tracy...

Nona · Post by **Nona** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:53 am

What about not crossing the bed but Standing on top of the bed?

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:03 am

Well, like Allen said, hitting Abby from that distance would have been nearly impossible. Plus there is the balancing aspect...standing or kneeling. I still think if the attacker came from across the bed...they were belly-down.

Nona, check out this link...it's from a previous forum discussion about the over the bed idea.
viewtopic.php?p=2884#2884

Tracy...

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:42 am

It's an interesting theory, the over-the-bed attack. But I just don't think you could get any leverage that way.

Trying lying down on a soft bed and striking an object (hopefully not human) with any force. You'll find that its not that easy. This bed was also high which would complicate it even further.

Also the blows would be at an angle, more or less perpendicular to the skull. ie: not parallel to the body, or somewhat ear-to-ear in direction.

Nona · Post by **Nona** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:06 am

I just realized that either would be impossiable because there would be blood splatter on the celing from above the bed even some flecks just from the swingback or some on the wall across from Abbey....I don't think it could have happened that way "across the bed or on top of".....

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 1:23 am

Nona @ Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:06 am wrote:I just realized that either would be impossiable because there would be blood splatter on the celing from above the bed even some flecks just from the swingback or some on the wall across from Abbey....I don't think it could have happened that way "across the bed or on top of".....

Thats what I've been saying

. Thats what I meant by an arc, I meant an arc of blood, or cast off from the weapon.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 1:40 am

Across from Abby was the bureau and that did receive blood on the drawer, but not any on the top shelf. That pretty much says, no matter which direction the assailant came, that the most bloody blows were delivered low down, near the ground. If the person did not raise the hatchet as high as their own stooping head, there's not going to be cast off on the ceiling, which there wasn't. So it seems to me that a crouching person hitting Abby in the head might be about the height of the bed, so the bed-as-shield could still hold. It's the short, down-low sort of bludgeoning that's going to show the blood patterns we do have.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 1:42 am

BTW: The longer the hatchet handle, the farther away the person can stand, or the higher the crouch or stoop, whichever you want to call it.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 4:57 am

Don't know if this any help or not, but, I added blood spots to a photo of Abby from where Dr. Dolan said they were in his Preliminary testimony. Mind you, this is not exact, but just to give the idea of where they were.

Nona · Post by **Nona** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:44 am

That is a great shot with the spatter to show !! I love it thank you I will study that for a while and think long and hard.

Bob Gutowski · Post by **Bob Gutowski** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 2:38 pm

Just as a caution - according to the doctors' testimony, wasn't the bed even closer to Abby before they moved it to examine her?

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 6:45 pm

Here's what I can find so far from Dr. Dolan's Prelim testimony concerning distances. I will look for more as well.:

DR. DOLAN - PRELIM - DAY ONE - Thursday August 25, 1892

Q. When did you see the body of Mrs. Borden?
A. I saw the body of Mrs. Borden at the same time, that is a few moments after I saw Mr. Borden's.
Q. Where was that?
A. Up stairs in the north west room, the second story of the building.
Q. Up the front stairs?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Where in the room was it?
A. Between the dressing case and the bed. The dressing case stood against the north side; between
that and the bed was the body, lying face down.
Q. How far was the bed from the dressing case? How much room was there?
Page 3 (89)
A. I should judge about four or five feet.
Q. You say she was lying face down?
(90)
A. Yes Sir.

Q. Was the body of the woman lying on its face when you first saw it?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. In the place where you described on the floor?
A. Yes Sir.
Page 14 (101)
Q. As you saw it, without turning it over, what was the appearance of it?
A. You could not see any part of the face. The arms were thrown, as it were, prone around the face.
All that was exposed was the right half of the back of the head.
Q. As the body lay there could you see any wounds?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What wound could you see as the body lay there?
A. As the body lay there you could see, getting down closely, you could see there were a number of wounds, by close examination. Introducing your finger you found those wounds, at least seven or eight of them, went through the bone into the skull, that is into the brain.
Q. I wont trouble you any more with that part of the inquiry. What did you do then, did you turn the body over?
(102)

Q. What blood did you find in the room beside that on her clothing and on the carpet immediately under her?
A. On the pillow sham immediately above, about a foot or eighteen inches in front were about three spots. On the rail of the bed I should judge there would be from thirty to forty, probably fifty spots of blood.
Q. In what direction were those spots from the head as you found them?
A. Those on the shams were forward ones, about a foot or eighteen inches on the sham. The direction was forward from the head.
(Mr. Adams.) Nearer the wall?
A. Yes Sir, on the pillow sham.
Q. She was lying on the floor with her head towards the east wall?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How far from the east wall was her head?
A. Probably four or five feet --- four feet.
Q. Those were on the pillow shams some eighteen inches nearer the wall than her head?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. And that distance from her head?
A. Yes Sir.

Tracy...