"Go and Do and Have"

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue May 04, 2004 8:07 am

nquest
Alice Russell
152
They had quite refined ideas, and they would like to have been cultured girls, and would like to have had different advantages, and it would natural for girls to express themselves that way. I think it would have been very unnatural if they had not.
Q. He did not give them the advantages of education that they thought they ought to have had?
A. I dont know as it is just that; but people cannot go and do and have, unless they have ample means to do it.
......

I'm beginning to think this means travel.
I think Lizzie, after her first taste of travel on her grand tour,-seeing the opulence of the Old World and experiencing the attractiveness of the people and the fine furnishings and exotic foods, waitresses and hotel maids and running water and the comraderie of girls like herself- I think this is what "cultured" meant to Lizzie.
Before she embarked, she may have seen herself as doing an accepted thing and it would show she could play in the social world's league. When she left and when she returned can be printed in the newspapers under "Social Notes" and that would be her thrill.
After the experience, she would be loathe to return, as Anna Borden was willing to testify to (but who was rejected as a witness as to remoteness in time-1880), and might only see her house now as little and her life as inconsequential, in the greater scheme of things.
Back to her old room, that cell from her childhood?
No, that room could no longer hold our Lizzie.
Then Emma switched. Emma did not yearn for far horizons. Emma was probably very willing to abdicate the larger room now to the larger Lizzie.
Now it would seem that the income from the Ferry Street property would become an issue as well. Lizzie would now know that it took a big, solid, steady bank account to travel. A landlord builds equity over time and a landlord, which she now was along with Emma, cannot always depend on the rent being paid , nor a full house. And there are expenses in upkeep. At this period, I have a feeling it wasn't that Andrew gave a part of house to Abby for her 1/2 sister's use in 1887- it might be more of a discontent growing that Lizzie did not want to wait for a trickling income- she might want a large sum,Now.

Lizzie would have to have a companion in traveling and I think her much older sister Emma, may have been chosen by Lizzie as good for a chaperone.
That would entail Lizzie leaning on everyone in the family- agitating for some changes.
She would bully or cajole Emma to be prepared to travel with her, under guise of "culture". She would need to liquidate her assets for a solid chunk of cash. She would need Andrew to buy back his Ferry Street property to get some cash, which cost him quite a bit of money. And in planning for future trips she would constantly need large chunks of cash (or approved letters of credit).
This would inflame Andrew and that would trickle down to Abby.
Maybe that was Lizzie's lament when her friend said of her later that she thought Abby had influence over Andrew. Abby's contribution to the turmoil over these future plans might be to lobby Andrew to not give up or give in to that much money for the 2 girls to travel. Abby could see this new whim as a constant, never-ending drain on their resources- which is what it would be.

I wonder what a trip like Lizzie took in 1880, would have cost, total?
We know she traveled after the trial-wherever she wanted- just not to Europe again that we know of. Maybe now it was her money and she was custodian of it, she realized just how draining and expensive a venture like that might be and decide finally to go into solid real estate instead, like her father?

[Inquest
Agusta Tripp
144
Q. You also told the officer that Lizzie told you that her step mother claimed not to have any influence with the father, but Lizzie thought she did have an influence with him.
A. Yes, I think Lizzie thought she did.
--this was implied a long time ago, according to Tripp- maybe even 5 years earlier. ]

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Tue May 04, 2004 11:02 am

Do you think along the lines of "Go and do and see" that it would include things like visiting museums and art galleries? Didn't Lizzie visit the Louvre, or is that just author's talk? I was thinking this would also include seeing the latest plays, which would probably entail a trip to Boston as Lizzie did later on in life. Lizzie was said to have entertained show people later at Maplecroft, from what I've read, moneyed people would have entertainments at their lavish homes. The latest musician would come and play for an evening's entertainment for guests. Poets, authors, and the like would also give dramatic readings. Do you think this may have also been part of Lizzie's earlier vision?

Robert Harry · Post by **Robert Harry** » Tue May 04, 2004 2:05 pm

Kat--What an interesting post! Curiously, as I visited the B&B again this past weekend (my fiancee and I slept in the Morse bedroom), I was actually thinking all the while what the house would have seemed like to Lizzie as she returned from Europe. Certainly, it would have looked crookeder and more cramped. Though, as you have said, there really is a lot of room in that house once you see it. This weekend, I could almost feel with Lizzie the need to "get out of here"--after (literally) having seen Paree!! BTW, I thought Lizzie's trip was in 1890, not 1880. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the HOUSE ITSELF is a "character" in this drama. The physical environment breeded resentment, wanderlust, ambition--a need to escape in order to fully live. One other thought--couldn't Andrew have suspected that offering the European trip to Lizzie might have incited her ambition? In a way, he kind of "caused" the tragedy by offering Lizzie some bait (pun intendend). Makes you wonder why he gave in to her this way. Thanks for this topic--it seems to jive with the vibes I got in the house this last time. I have more to say about the house visit--where should I post it?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue May 04, 2004 4:41 pm

Susan, I must admit I thought about Lizzie seeing a museum or thirsting for museums, but for some reason it doesn't ring true. She would certainly give a gloss to her trip upon her return- in 1890- as Robert Harry corrected me. (Thanks).

"Go and do and have" sounds like it costs money- perpetual money. Since Lizzie couldn't just move out and establish her own household, and since relations within the family were so strained from 1887, I'd think one parent or the other made a lethal compromise.
That's what you are referring to, RobertHarry.
I think they sent Lizzie on that trip to get some peace and didn't look to the future repercussions.
Go means travel. Do mean exciting things. Have means own.

At that time, the very wealthy families had huge homes and art collections which were catalogued, gaslight or electric light coming soon, nice bathrooms and privacy, and servants.

If Lizzie envisioned herself owning artwork and sculpture (I think she would like sculpture) that might be part of what she considered *cultured*.

Robert Harry you can post your travel story in "Fall River", or "Stay To Tea", if you are really asking. Your topic involves everything tho except Second-Hand Shop and Links!
I can't wait! Maybe you have started already?

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Tue May 04, 2004 4:48 pm

Writings have always led us to believe Andrew sent Lizzie to Europe to quiet her....

Kat, your opinion that she may have been sent to give the household peace and quiet is very interesting.

Perhaps Emma gave her the larger room for the same reason....

"She's home--- maybe this will please her and shut her up?)

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Tue May 04, 2004 5:53 pm

I think Harry made a post in the past about a copy or print or postcard Lizzie had purchased and brought back from Europe, it was of The Madonna and Child with a large blue sky with clouds behind them. I have a print of just the 2 cherubs that are at the bottom of the painting, I can't recall the artist for the life of me.

Anyhoo, I think this was something that Lizzie saw in one of the museums on her trip. It certainly fits in the have category. I wonder if she would have liked to have owned the original painting and then why? Did she like the piece for what it was? Religious reasons?

I don't know if Fall River had any museums at the time? If Lizzie had the inclination, that would probably entail a trip to Boston or New York or any other large city. This is a very interesting thread, trying to find out what Lizzie would consider "cultered" under the 'Go and Do and Have' heading.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Tue May 04, 2004 6:10 pm

Ah, I found the original painting; Raphael's Sistine Madonna. This is the one that Lizzie was supposed to have bought a copy or print thereof.

Nancie · Post by **Nancie** » Tue May 04, 2004 7:16 pm

good thinking Kat, good post
to put yourself in Lizzie's frame of mind. Of
course she Had to be disappointed on coming home
to her dreary surroundings after visiting Europe.
On the last post I couldn't see the picture.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue May 04, 2004 8:17 pm

Susan, there's no picture.

Do we recall the source of the Madonna & Child picture?

What in Lizzie responded to that, if it's true?

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Tue May 04, 2004 8:34 pm

Kat, I edited with another photo, hope it comes through okay this time, I can see it, but, I could see the other one too after I posted it?

I think it was Harry who had made the post, he may still know or have the source for this?

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Tue May 04, 2004 8:40 pm

I could see both photos fine.

I had posted the Madonna photo to the old forum.Not, the Arborwood one, but the previous one. I believe the source was the late Terrance Duniho. He had sent me a disk of his that contained the photo.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue May 04, 2004 9:08 pm

I see this picture thank you!

Is this a Lincolnism?

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Tue May 04, 2004 9:25 pm

No, no Lincolnitis.

I could have sworn this post was made on the old Arborwood forum because I recall responding to the post with the info about my having the print with just the 2 cherubs from the bottom of the piece. From what I recall the post was about a print or etching or something Lizzie had brought back from Europe of one the paintings she had seen there.

BTW, thanks Harry, could have sworn it was you who had made the post. Hmmm, another one of life's great mysteries! I did search in the archives of the old Arborwood forum, but, could come up with nothing.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue May 04, 2004 9:33 pm

I remember that too.
But if Harry's source is Terence, we'll have to find it ourselves.
Who was it knew those cherubs? Was that Harry?

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Tue May 04, 2004 9:38 pm

I thought you meant where did I get the photo. The Madonna source comes from Rebello, page 11:

"With a party of friends, Miss Borden made a tour of Europe in 1890. She remained on the continent for three months, under the chaperonage of Miss Cox of Taunton [Massachusetts]. They visited London, traversed Scotland, saw Paris and spent some time in Rome. Lizzie brought home a large collection of photographs of buildings and copies of works of the great masters. She was particularly found (fond) of Raphel's "Sistene Madona" and brought home several large copies of it. She had pictures of St. Peter's at Rome and other great European cathedrals." Boston Evening Recorder, June 5, 1893: 4."

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue May 04, 2004 9:40 pm

Thank you!
How do we suppose they knew all that?
Sounds like Lincoln wrote for The Recorder!

Haulover · Post by **Haulover** » Tue May 04, 2004 10:25 pm

i'm sorry if i'm dense -- but what is the lincoln reference? i should know that.

as far as what lizzie wanted in being "cultured" -- doesn't her behavior after the murders explain it?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue May 04, 2004 10:33 pm

The refernce is to Lincoln from me- whenever something odd comes up that sounds too good and too descriptive.
I usually ask if it's Lincoln. I don't know if it is or not.

Do you think a *cultured girl* is what Lizzie became?
She seemed more like a person who enjoyed indulging herself rather than becoming *cultured*.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Wed May 05, 2004 2:11 am

Thank you, Harry! Yes, that was the post I was refering to, I'm glad you found it so quickly, I was beginning to think I was losing it! If this newspaper report is accurate about the large copies of the Sistene Madonna, it makes me wonder what Lizzie's draw was to this particular piece of artwork. Was it because it was considered in the eyes of the world to be an important and great piece of art and therefor made Lizzie "cultured" for owning it? Was it for religious reasons, it was a piece of art that no one in Lizzie's family could really object to because of the subject matter.

Robert Harry · Post by **Robert Harry** » Wed May 05, 2004 11:58 am

A small reproduction of the Sistine Madonna is in Lizzie's bedroom on a night table. Thanks, Kat, for responding earlier. I have not yet had time to sit down and write about my most recent visit to 92 Second Street--I am in process of switching jobs and we have houseguests who want to see NY. I will post under Fall River. More later. BTW, kat, do you get a lot of houseguests since you live in Florida?

Robert Harry · Post by **Robert Harry** » Wed May 05, 2004 12:03 pm

Forgot to say--someone really did a great job in the Borden house--it is obvious they know all about the legend, the authors, and the newspaper reports. Not only is there a Sistine Madonna, but there is also a "note" for Abby from a sick friend on the mantle in the sitting room, asking her to please come over and visit!! There is an authentic box of Garfield tea in the dining room, as well as several flat irons with a small ironing board covered with fabric just as Lizzie described in her inquest testimony--the ironing board is on the small second dining room table. There is, however, no couch or lounge in the dining room. Sorry I'm digressing, I'll describe more later elsewhere.

Haulover · Post by **Haulover** » Wed May 05, 2004 12:26 pm

Kat:

talk about being on a different wavelength! i realize now you meant victoria lincoln. for some reason, i was thinking of abraham lincoln. i have no idea why. yet i then turn around and see mark's excellent lincoln picture -- so who knows, maybe i am "following" something.

i think "culture" is a difficult tricky word -- people mean different things by it. for example, in my judgment, it would necessarily include "educated", but i know for some people it's just successful social snobbery of some sort. the way alice puts it it sounds to me like she means their ability to attend social functions and travel.

but now this reminds me of one of the black holes -- lizzie herself. who is she, really? apparently she loved the theatre -- that must have been sincere. i've heard she was well-read. but apparently totally ordinary as far as ambition is concerned. i mean she had all that time on her hands -- where are the memoirs, the novel, the poetry -- you know what i mean? i can't know how much she understands culture unless she shows it. it would be exciting if she hid it up in the attic!

about all i can do and believe to a general degree is fall back on astrology. remember her moon is in leo. a cancer with this moon, i would think would be a natural actress. i would also expect to see some haughtiness in her demeanor. you would see leo in her personality and habits and mannerisms. and i would expect some ostentation. and that she would have to play.......that might be worth speculation. what games? how did lizzie amuse herself inside maplecroft? (clue about emma leaving -- games emma couldn't stand?)

ha! you know, maybe i should give up on what happened aug 4th -- and just move in with lizzie after she's in maplecroft....and just go ahead and create a sex scandal, dramatizing the manner in which emma leaves (disgusted, outraged, etc.). have you ever considered that this incident might well be the best clue to understanding august 4th? i mean, i wonder if lizzie was playing the same games on 2nd street?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed May 05, 2004 9:47 pm

We know Lizzie was a relatively indifferent student. She left school before graduating. She wasn't too interested in what they were teaching is the minimum assumption.
We've been told she took up piano but couldn't stick to that- the reason being if she couldn't be pretty good, she figured she might as well not bother. That has always sounded like an excuse to me. If Lizzie was passionate about the piano, I'd think she would pursue it. Maybe she was too lazy to really be cultured.
You're right, Haulover, when you say that in order to decide Lizzie's level of culture we would have to witness it. Her immediate needs of entertainment after the trial was for the theatre. That could be her version of going to the movies.
......
From Emma's Interview, Boston Post, 1913:
"The happenings at the French street house that caused me to leave I must refuse to talk about. I did not go until conditions became absolutely unbearable. Then before taking action, I consulted the Rev. A.E. Buck...

After carefully listening to my story he said it was imperative that I should make my home elsewhere."

This is always assumed to mean that Lizzie drove Emma away. It could also mean that Emma was the dangerous one and that Lizzie was the one who couldn't *bear * it anymore. It doesn't specify to whom conditions were unbearable...

Haulover · Post by **Haulover** » Wed May 05, 2004 10:26 pm

we don't know who lizzie was. we're just grasping at straws. that's what i keep saying to ground us in some kind of reality. that lizzie wasn't interested in school or piano lessons -- that doesn't tell us a thing about her intelligence or perception or cognizance.

but when emma talks about unbearable conditions, i think it is common sense that she is talking about her own reactions. she chose to leave.

Haulover · Post by **Haulover** » Thu May 06, 2004 11:06 am

i guess this is somewhat relevant to the topic. i ran across this on an astrology site.
_________________

A Cancer individual whose Moon sign is Leo produces a Cancer native who is a good deal less shy and demure than would normally be expected of those ruled by the Sign of the Crab. In terms of personality, these are positive and confident characters, with an emphasis on pride, dignity and self-respect. They appear open-hearted, amiable and outgoing, always striving to make a good first impression, due mainly to the fact that they are proud persons who care a great deal about the manner in which others perceive them. Cancer Sun/Leo Moon individuals expect and enjoy having a broad base of support and respect from those with whom they come in contact. Their security comes from the knowledge that they are well-liked by those around them. Indeed, they seem to crave attention and respect...which they tend to attract naturally given their warm and sunny personality. Despite this, Cancer natives governed by a Leo Moon are prone to keep most people at a distance and rarely become close to very many individuals. There is an underlying distrust of others in this Cancer Sun/Leo Moon combination, but there is also a tolerance of others' shortcomings and an innate personal feeling that most people and circumstances can be controlled. These Cancer subjects are not afraid to face unexpected situations and will usually "do the right thing at the right time." Their style is invariably neat and organized and they dislike being around people who are "sloppy" or involved in situations they perceive to be chaotic. Cancer Sun/Leo Moon individuals take themselves seriously...perhaps even to the degree of being a little pompous and self-righteous on occasion. Nevertheless, these are persons who know how to get their way while making others feel like the winners...indeed, this Cancer native is often perceived as being the one who has compromised. Under a rather gentle exterior, there is a core of independence and determination here, something others rarely see or realize.

Some Famous Cancer Sun/Leo Moon Personalities
* P.T. Barnum * Jeff Beck * Lizzie Borden * Tom Cruise * Lolita Davidovich * Abner Doubleday *
* Rob Estes * Jessica Hahn * Tom Hanks * Kris Kristofferson * Lil' Kim * Thurgood Marshall *
* George Michael * Nancy Reagan * Geraldo Rivera * Geoffrey Rush * Pam Shriver *
* Ringo Starr * Hunter Tylo * Babe Didrikson Zaharias *

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu May 06, 2004 11:35 am

If CancerSun/Leo Moon includes PT Barnum, he was born July 5th and shares a birthday with John Morse.
Does that mean all of Cancer has a Leo moon- because that stretches from at least July 5th to July 19.

My point about school and piano lessons deals with Lizzie in her formative years and refers back to Alice saying they would like to be cultured girls. I depend on Alice for some insights into Lizzie and also info from her teacher and her other friends like Mrs. Brigham and Mrs. Holmes as well.
If Lizzie quit school then she wasn't that interested in learning.
If she quit piano lessons then she wasn't too interested in appearing cultured- as other young ladies of her time would like to have these sorts of refined accomplishments. Actually, in Emma's generation, there was a lot of social stress put upon a young lady's appearance of decorum and refinement.
That just doesn't seem to fit our Lizzie.
If Lizzie wished to truely be cultured, I'm only saying I don't see any motivation on her part in her formative years or any inclination towards that until her European trip.

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Thu May 06, 2004 11:57 am

It surprises me that Lizzie was not more proficient at the piano....

Remember the egg incident?

If it was a true story-- Lizzie prided herself on being able to anything she wanted.. Rather like Martha Stewart's Yearbook quote...

"I do what I please and I do it with ease"

(I love that statement)

Haulover · Post by **Haulover** » Thu May 06, 2004 2:25 pm

***If CancerSun/Leo Moon includes PT Barnum, he was born July 5th and shares a birthday with John Morse.
Does that mean all of Cancer has a Leo moon- because that stretches from at least July 5th to July 19. ***

i'm not certain i understand the question. the moon changes signs every two to three days. pt barnum and john morse weren't born in the same year, were they? where the moon is on july 5th in one year has nothing to do with where it is on that date in another year -- i mean, it can be calculated in advance, of course -- but the moon moves through the zodiac much faster than the sun. in other words, the moon may be in any sign on any day of the year. as far as i know, every possible combination of sun/moon has been experienced. to know your moon's position, you just need to know the date/year, and if it's close to transition to another sign,, the time.

i realized something else about this particular sun/moon combination though -- that sounds like the type of thing you would reason. it's this:

that with cancer sun and leo moon, the two planets have exchanged their natural signs. sun "belongs" in leo, moon "belongs" in cancer. this implies something very interestinng, though i'm not sure what.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu May 06, 2004 2:39 pm

I intuitively *got* that the signs were exchanged, and it sounds odd. But I don't know what that means.

Ok if I got this straight now- PTBarnum was found, by checking his date/year, to be moon in Leo, as well as Lizzie and that for me to include Morse, the year needs to be part of the equation?
How would they do that? I mean do they pick Cancers and find their year and calculate their moon and then list them?

I thought the names listed at the end were Cancers like any horoscope would name Cancers.
Now I understand the date/year combination.
Thanks.

Nancie · Post by **Nancie** » Thu May 06, 2004 7:38 pm

In response to "I do what I want I do and do it with ease"... I am a Martha S fan also and I see no
connection with Lizzie. Lizzie was so lazy! She had
a sharp mind but didn't use it creatively in any way
that we see. (Except..... the big one)

Haulover · Post by **Haulover** » Thu May 06, 2004 9:29 pm

***How would they do that? I mean do they pick Cancers and find their year and calculate their moon and then list them? ***

i don't want to misinform, so let me show what one would actually be looking at to get this info. this is january year 1900. i scanned in just the sun and moon columns. you see how the sun enters aquarius on the 21st. then under the moon column you see how often it changes, about every 3rd day. because the moon changes so often, you can't say that it's here or there on certain days every year -- you have to look at the particular year. (now the issue gets complicated if someone is born right at the transitiion from one sign to another -- that gets into the math and technicalities of it -- i'd have to re-educate myself to explain that.) but it's basically simple enough. i know this is not over your head, but i thought seeing a picture might clarify what i might not have been able to say.

and this is the first pic i've attached in the new forum, so let's see.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu May 06, 2004 11:14 pm

Wow, that turned out well! It's totally legible, except, of course, that I can't read it (as in know what it says).

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu May 06, 2004 11:18 pm

Nancie, I had a couple of bios here on Martha and there is kind of a similarity between her and Lizzie, I think.
Not counting the amount of energy Martha has, they both were unethical, obsessed with money, control freaks, and could make life miserable for those who loved them.
They both also ended up with a lot of money.

(If one believes the legends, that is)...

Neither Martha, nor Lizzie, were ever really *cultured girls*.
They put on a show, tho.
It's odd to say, because Martha was bright and graduated college. It was said she could talk on a lot of subjects- she was educated rather than cultured, This is a good example of the difference. Martha acted so crass and cursed like a sailor- there is no sense of a peaceful character or any refinement.
They are both people who give in to impulse- like overgrown children.

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Thu May 06, 2004 11:31 pm

I admire Martha's business accumen. I think she stepped on a lot of people to get to where she is (was) and it finally caught up with her. Same with Leona Helmsley. Had these been "nice" women they wouldn't have been treated so badly in the press (IMO).

Cultured or no, murderer or not-- Lizzie was a strong woman and that is worth some respect!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri May 07, 2004 11:26 am

I don't know much about Leona Helmsly- but I realize the pattern to which you are referring. Strong women.
I don't think Lizzie treated others outside her family as badly as Leona and Martha did.
We don't really know how badly Lizzie acted in the home, but I doubt she was crass.
I think Lizzie had the sense to act naturally in public and with her friends- but I wonder how she treated her sister later?

Nancie · Post by **Nancie** » Fri May 07, 2004 4:06 pm

Sorry Ladies, I couldn't disagree more about Martha.
I see absolutely NO connection or similarities with
Lizzie. I admit I'm overly defensive about Martha,
she grew up in Jersey about the same time I
did. She worked her butt off her whole life, is the most "unvain" woman in the world, she created a
multimillion dollar business. Of course she was a bitch and perfectionist. You don't make money in business being a push over. She made one "unethical" mistake (that is nonsense) it is peanuts and her whole life and career is ruined!?
Aaaagh get me off my soapbox now!
Lizzie was just a spoiled brat who never worked a
day in her life. Martha takes her daughter and son in law and all neices and nephews on a fantastic cultural type vacation every year. Martha knows she didn't grow up "Cultured" in Nutley New Jersey!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri May 07, 2004 5:11 pm

What I have read shows that Martha was unethical from the beginning.
I was not referring to her recent troubles, especially.
Read a bio of her if you want the story: And then weigh that- don't take what I say as right or wrong..
I was pretty much thinking what she did was what a lot of people do.
But what she did in this instance really was to finally be caught on her whole pattern of doing things her whole business life.
That was basically the tip of the iceburg.
I was neutral about her with all I had heard thru the media until I got these bios.

Nancie · Post by **Nancie** » Fri May 07, 2004 5:59 pm

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Fri May 07, 2004 6:25 pm

Of course Lizzie was a strong woman! Not having to go out to work does not make a person weak and useless. Lizzie got what she wanted. She beat a murder wrap for a crime she was more than likely guilty of. She remained in a town where she was ignored, taunted and ostracized. While on trial facing life in prison (at the least) she held up with dignity and grace.

Apart from the inquest she knew when to shut up! Poor Martha should have taken a page from her book when she made those damming statements which eventually caused the charges to be brought against her. I am not entirely convinced Martha was treated fairly-- in both the charges against her and the refusal to grant her a new trial. Too bad she didn't have an ex-Governor as a lawyer. She would have had a better defense than the 15 minute one which did little to help her.

Nancie · Post by **Nancie** » Sat May 08, 2004 2:40 pm

Martha's daughter was on Larry King weeks ago and
said it best: "my Mother has done so much, worked
so hard...etc" why does this one silly stock thing
negate her entire life? That touched me, Alexus has
never been in the limelight, she came out to defend
her Mom.
I have read all Bios of Martha, I have her books,
"Gardening" "Entertaining" she is an incredible lady
and has the love of her family always.
You ladies that don't work, good for you, but I'm a
hard worker like Martha and I will stick up for her! !

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Sat May 08, 2004 3:04 pm

I saw Alexis on Larry King as well. It was an interesting interview. She gave very little away and was pretty cagey when it came to direct questions she didn't want to answer. I'd say she did her mother proud.

I have read 2 books about Martha. Neither of which she authorized or participated in. They were unkind to say the least.

I have every magazine she ever published, her cook book, Entertaining and Gardening. I ran out and got Araucana chickens so that I could have blue chicken eggs-- They really do lay them!

If you ever want reasonably priced, high quality kitchen utensils and cookware-- her line at K-Mart is very good. The best pot holders I have ever had! I use her silverware for everyday and love it.

Martha has good taste. Her color palete is beautiful and I like the photos I have seen of her home.

Martha HAS worked hard. No doubt about it. She earned everything she has. Her family has benefited as well.

I stated above that I admire Martha. I always have and always will. I think it was unfair she was not granted a new trial when it came to light a juror lied about his criminal past. Surely this is grounds for a new trial?

I did not and will not cancel my subscription to her magazine and hope when she is out of prison she can take over the helm of her company. I am not sure she can... are there not laws preventing this?

Nancie · Post by **Nancie** » Sat May 08, 2004 3:36 pm

she is not in prison. I feel for her daughter, I can
just imagine myself being sent to prison for cheating on taxes, my son would be devestated.
It is crazy. A lifetime of hard work and you get busted for some silly thing?

lydiapinkham · Post by **lydiapinkham** » Sun May 30, 2004 8:46 pm

One thing about Lizzie giving up the piano. She is said to have given it up because she was dissatisfied with her playing. In later years she refused to play, as I recall. I don't see that as a sign of her being uncultured; on the contrary, it might mean that she held herself to a higher standard than she could reach. Many were content with mediocrity and happily showed it off. I think Lizzie wanted to play well or not at all.

--Lyddie

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon May 31, 2004 12:22 am

Yes I agree. I think that was her reason. But not being able to play meant one less accomplishment that a lady might have in her to trot out for company to show off her skills in impressing a suiter and his family. I don't know why that was required- like drawing or singing too- but it was looked upon as a symbol of a cultured lady- tho of course we know it's not.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Tue Jun 01, 2004 3:08 am

It sounds like Lizzie may have been a bit of a perfectionist; if you can't do something right, don't do it at all. I wonder if there are other areas of her life where this might apply?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Jun 01, 2004 3:49 pm

It might be that- it might also be that was a reason not to try any more. It might be that her family (father) did not want to pay for lessons and Lizzie told people she had lost interest because she was shy of telling the truth...

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Tue Jun 01, 2004 7:46 pm

Well, that could be. I was thinking if Lizzie really, really wanted to continue the lessons she would have found a way. She did have money in the bank that I imagine was hers to spend as she saw fit?

I was thinking along the lines of Lizzie's statement about not doing things in a hurry, she does them her way and she does whats right for her, whats perfect for her. Another one I thought of was Lizzie ironing her best hankies, Bridget could have done it, but, she chose to do it herself. Did Bridget not do a good enough job for her tastes?

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Tue Jun 01, 2004 8:01 pm

When she talked about breaking the egg she stated it was the only thing she ever attempted that she was not a success at.....

Odd-- especially if she stunk at the piano!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Jun 02, 2004 10:51 pm

We don't know if Lizzie had money as a schoolgirl.
I think she was a teen when the piano lessons came up.

Rebello, 10
Mrs. Charles Holmes and friends of Lizzie spoke:

"Her life was uneventful during the few years following her leaving school. She abandoned her piano music lessons because, although making encouraging progress, she conceived the idea that she was not destined to become a good musician."

Haulover · Post by **Haulover** » Wed Jun 02, 2004 11:16 pm

perhaps we can safely say (given the evidence) that lizzie was not especially talented?

it looks like she could appreciate it, but she couldn't do it. so she's an average girl in that way. and she had better taste than some, but not as much as others.