ANTHONY Family- More

[Kat]

From the Terence Duniho Collection:

[Kat]

From the Terence Duniho Collection pg2

[Kat]

From the Terence Duniho Collection pg3

[Kat]

Terence Duniho Collection pg4

[Kat]

Terence Duniho Collection pg5

[Kat]

Terence Duniho Collection pg6 Final

[Kat]

History of Fall River / prepared under the direction of a committee of prominent citizens appointed by His Honor Mayor John T. Coughlin by Henry M. Fenner, A. B., assisted by Benjamin Buffinton. -- New York : F. T. Smiley Publishing Co., 1906.
At the Keeley Library site

[Kat]

I didn't prepare the genealogy on the Anthony family so I am not too familiar with it. If anyone spots anything interesting there or can use it, let us know?

[Guest]

Hi, I'm new here and just scanning this genealogy I saw he had questioned Innocent's birth name. I love genealogy and so I looked it up, and did find an Innocent Wardell married a Richard Borden. Innocent was born in 1675, Newport, Tiverton, RI. She was the daughter of Gershom Wodell and Mary Tripp. I noticed the Wardell/Wodell name was transcribed with a different spelling from the same record.

Just a tidbit and most likely no significance to what the objective of our searching but just somethng to note -- maybe.

If I can help look for anything, I'd be glad to give it a try.

[patsy]

Oops! That was my post above. I forgot to log in. Sorry for that.

[Guest]

Yes Kat:

What a wonderful photo of the old Anthony house. I remember seeing it in Fenner's book at "A Taste of Honey Bookstore" in Fall River. At the time Mr. McKenna was asking a little more than I wanted to pay. Never seen another copy since then, but never went looking, since I had a copy of Fenner's 1911 book.

The Anthony house stood where the YMCA building is now. In the back ground to the left you can see a large Victorian, Greek Revival. It is either the William Mason house or most likely the Elisha Gardner House. Both houses still stand today.

(To add to Patsy's comment. When I was a child, about a block away from the Anthony house, down on Durfee Street was a Gas Station called Wordells or wodells. Can't remember the spelling)

[mbhenty]

OOPS! I DID THE SAME THING, FORGOT TO LOG IN. THOSE ARE MY COMMENTS ABOVE. SORRY! MICHAEL/MBHENTY

[Guest]

Common mistake. :)

I have both Fenner books, marvelous. Do you believe the David Anthony theory? i.e., paramour of Lizzie\'s and he did A&A in? I don\'t believe it.

[mbhenty]

I must concede that I know very little about the Anthony/Borden rumor to comment on it, except to say that the fact that Lizzie had a lover is an assumption that I don't subscribe to. But, that's not to say that she did not involve herself with someone for a short period of time, or perhaps just long enough to execute her plan and convince him/her to help her.

(I'm sure she had sweethearts or admirers but at the time of the murder, none that had been recent or long term.)

But, if she did have a Lover/Boyfriend/Suitor one would think that he would have become dragged into the mystery and become part of the lore as did Russell, Churchill, Morse, Bridget, or even Barlow, Brownie, Fleet, etc, all common names repeated many times in the telling of the crime. For sure, if she had a lover that was known to her contemporaries they would have spoke of him to the police.

I believe she had it done. There needs to be an explanaition to the absence of blood splatter, and the missing ax.

If so, what did the killer get out of it, Money, sex? What would be his motive? And, did he and Lizzie ever communicate again; if for money, perhaps not, if for sex, would he not be back for more? Could it have been David Anthony? Naaaaa!


That is what is so fascinating about this case. Was A. Brown right about his suspisions about the Manchester Murder and it's possible connection to the Borden Murders?

I believe that there was a someone who walked away with the ax, wearing the bloody clothes. What was that person's connection to Lizzie?
What was his incentive to keep quiet? Did he and Lizzie ever see each other again?

[Kat]

Hi, I'm new here and just scanning this genealogy I saw he had questioned Innocent's birth name. I love genealogy and so I looked it up, and did find an Innocent Wardell married a Richard Borden. Innocent was born in 1675, Newport, Tiverton, RI. She was the daughter of Gershom Wodell and Mary Tripp. I noticed the Wardell/Wodell name was transcribed with a different spelling from the same record.

Just a tidbit and most likely no significance to what the objective of our searching but just somethng to note -- maybe.

If I can help look for anything, I'd be glad to give it a try.

Hello!
Nice to have your input!

Have you looked at the other thread in this section on Wardell?
viewtopic.php?t=1505

Anyway, it's been a long complicated road because the Cornell's wish to claim Innocent as theirs so they can link their family to Lizzie Borden AND the killing of Cornell in R.I. by her son, in the olden days.
(Greedy)- Seriously tho, it makes for a good story- but I don't believe it.

That's why we're trying to prove the Wardell connection.

What was your source when you said you looked her up? (Innocent).
We would always need to compare names, dates and sources. Thanks again!

[Kat]

Personally, I like the David Anthony story and wish it were a book, or booklet, where all the points needed to be covered to convince us somewhat, would be covered.
I as yet don't really believe it- but I like it. I like that it's a new modern construction with some complexity.
It just hasn't been consistent.
Maybe if it was *cleaned up a bit*?

[joe]

Personally, I like the David Anthony story and wish it were a book, or booklet, where all the points needed to be covered to convince us somewhat, would be covered.
I as yet don't really believe it- but I like it. I like that it's a new modern construction with some complexity.
It just hasn't been consistent.
Maybe if it was *cleaned up a bit*?

Hmmmm. I wonder if this could become my next book? I'm about 1/2 way done with writing Resurrectionist Man, so the next book is on my mind. Since you & I conspired to do the Anthony genealogy article in The Hatchet, I've given it some thought. Only thing is, I don't write Harlequin romance stuff. Hard to call it "true crime".... Might be fun!

[DWilly]

Personally, I like the David Anthony story and wish it were a book, or booklet, where all the points needed to be covered to convince us somewhat, would be covered.
I as yet don't really believe it- but I like it. I like that it's a new modern construction with some complexity.
It just hasn't been consistent.
Maybe if it was *cleaned up a bit*?

I can understand that you "like" the David Anthony story. I like the whole "Nance and Lizzie" thing but I know there is zero proof that it's true. Just like there is zero proof of David and Lizzie being an item. Actually, I'd have to say that at least with Nance there's a tad bit of evidence something might have gone on. Not so with poor old David M.

Anyway, Stefani was nice enough to send me the October 2004, Hatchet which did a great job of looking at the David Anthony story. The writers were very objective and tried hard to give Ruby Cameron the benefit of the doubt. Still, it came out she lied about a couple of things and her "facts" were way off. Some people have attempted to "clean up" the David Anthony story but to me that smacks of loving a theory so much that you're willing to change things and make things up to try and make the story true.

[joe]

Personally, I like the David Anthony story and wish it were a book, or booklet, where all the points needed to be covered to convince us somewhat, would be covered.
I as yet don't really believe it- but I like it. I like that it's a new modern construction with some complexity.
It just hasn't been consistent.
Maybe if it was *cleaned up a bit*?

I can understand that you "like" the David Anthony story. I like the whole "Nance and Lizzie" thing but I know there is zero proof that it's true. Just like there is zero proof of David and Lizzie being an item. Actually, I'd have to say that at least with Nance there's a tad bit of evidence something might have gone on. Not so with poor old David M.

Anyway, Stefani was nice enough to send me the October 2004, Hatchet which did a great job of looking at the David Anthony story. The writers were very objective and tried hard to give Ruby Cameron the benefit of the doubt. Still, it came out she lied about a couple of things and her "facts" were way off. Some people have attempted to "clean up" the David Anthony story but to me that smacks of loving a theory so much that you're willing to change things and make things up to try and make the story true.

I agree, DWilly. I think Ruby knew something, but I, too, think she made up a lot about David Anthony. When I checked with the Cherry Point historical society, they rather admitted she was a can short of a six pack. Neither Kat nor I could find evidence that she got her PhD from the N.C. college. So be it, it's still a good story, but one with a bit of fancy!
Joe

[Kat]

We have read and acquired many news items on the story, talked to people involved in the story and in the reportage of the story and I respect every one of them.
By *cleaning up* I mean investigated, and put into some order. There were confusing claims made but I have always wondered if the story had some kernals of truth.
I enjoyed contacting People for their experiences of Ruby and their impressions of her. Also I respect our member Gramma, and would like to hear about her correspondence with Ruby and her visits with her.
The sad thing is Ruby was so old when she came forward that I can see how things might have gotten confused or mis-remembered. Investigating it to either prove or finally disprove it would be rather interesting. I'm a curious person.

[DWilly]

We have read and acquired many news items on the story, talked to people involved in the story and in the reportage of the story and I respect every one of them.
By *cleaning up* I mean investigated, and put into some order. There were confusing claims made but I have always wondered if the story had some kernals of truth.
I enjoyed contacting People for their experiences of Ruby and their impressions of her. Also I respect our member Gramma, and would like to hear about her correspondence with Ruby and her visits with her.
The sad thing is Ruby was so old when she came forward that I can see how things might have gotten confused or mis-remembered. Investigating it to either prove or finally disprove it would be rather interesting. I'm a curious person.

I have experience interviewing women in their eighties. About two years ago I talked with Pauline Betz on the phone. She is a past winner of both Wimbledon and the US Championship. She played in the 1940s. I also met with Louise Brough, who is also a former tennis great. I am fairly good at telling the difference between a wonderful older woman who simply got a few things mixed up and a person who is lying and trying to impress people. Ruby went beyond getting a few things mixed up she made things up. There's a difference. I'm not saying she was a bad person. I am only saying she is not a good source or a reliable one.

I also try to respect other people. However, when people use discredited sources such as Trickey-McHenry and then try and pass it off as being gospel truth well, I'm going to question that. I also don't want to rely too much on a source who insists on being anonymous and who's information is more often than not contradictory. If a reliable and truthful source has a story to tell let them then come forward into the light of day and tell the whole story and let it be checked out.

Finally, "kernels of truth" could mean just about anything. It's more than possible poor old maligned David simply knew Lizzie somewhat and that's all. They were after all from pretty good Fall River's families. As one author pointed out more than one person in Fall Rivers was a "chromosome" away from Lizzie.

[Kat]

I don't consider the story Ruby told as closed yet.
I repeat, it needs further investigation. I'm still open-minded. Haven't made my mind up- so that's a good way to approach the story.
Also, when I say I admire Gramma, I think it's a shame that she doesn't post anymore, probably because of the reception she gets when the Ruby story comes up. That bothers me. I like to be open to "kernals of truth" but I won't know until I see for myself. I'm not assuming anything.

[joe]

I don't consider the story Ruby told as closed yet.
I repeat, it needs further investigation. I'm still open-minded. Haven't made my mind up- so that's a good way to approach the story.
Also, when I say I admire Gramma, I think it's a shame that she doesn't post anymore, probably because of the reception she gets when the Ruby story comes up. That bothers me. I like to be open to "kernals of truth" but I won't know until I see for myself. I'm not assuming anything.

Me, too, Kat. I miss Gramma's sage comments here. I wish there was somebody on the forum who lives near Cherry Point, Maine! That's where the Ruby info is held.

[nbcatlover]

As most people know, I like the David Anthony theory too. There are so many coincidences. There's also more that Ruby Cameron got right than has been revealed in my own research, but I haven't got the "clincher" yet.

Doesn't anyone find it curious that Andrew got into a verbal argument with David's uncle, Charles Horton, on the day of the murder. To my knowledge, the source of the dispute was never revealed. Harry, you are the keeper of obscure sources. Do you know?

[patsy]

Hi, I'm new here and just scanning this genealogy I saw he had questioned Innocent's birth name. I love genealogy and so I looked it up, and did find an Innocent Wardell married a Richard Borden. Innocent was born in 1675, Newport, Tiverton, RI. She was the daughter of Gershom Wodell and Mary Tripp. I noticed the Wardell/Wodell name was transcribed with a different spelling from the same record.

Just a tidbit and most likely no significance to what the objective of our searching but just somethng to note -- maybe.

If I can help look for anything, I'd be glad to give it a try.

Hello!
Nice to have your input!

Have you looked at the other thread in this section on Wardell?
viewtopic.php?t=1505

Anyway, it's been a long complicated road because the Cornell's wish to claim Innocent as theirs so they can link their family to Lizzie Borden AND the killing of the Mrs. Borden in R.I. by her son, in the olden days.
(Greedy)- Seriously tho, it makes for a good story- but I don't believe it.

That's why we're trying to prove the Wardell connection.

What was your source when you said you looked her up? (Innocent).
We would always need to compare names, dates and sources. Thanks again!

Thanks, Kat.

I will check that link and try to digest it -- I did take a peek. You all have gathered so much that I find myself lost in the reading. Sorry it took me so long to get back to you.

My source was Ancestry's Family Data Collection, Individual Records Collection, and birth records. I also found the same that most of you found -- a marriage to Cornell too. From what I understand that collection was gathered for a genetic study and information was gathered from a variety of sources. Might be best that we think of it as a secondary source for the most part.

I like the Anthony story too, and from all I had read I want to believe Ruby and Gramma having talked to her in person makes it seem more convincing, but still no proof -- yet anyway unless I've missed something.

This is a great forum and I have been reading it for a long time. Thanks for having me here and I hope that I can contribute something along the line.

[DWilly]

Doesn't anyone find it curious that Andrew got into a verbal argument with David's uncle, Charles Horton, on the day of the murder. To my knowledge, the source of the dispute was never revealed. Harry, you are the keeper of obscure sources. Do you know?

So far the only thing I have found is from Rebello on pg. 527:

Horton, Charles M., had a conversation with Mr. Borden the morning of August 4, 1892, at 10:10 a.m. They discussed the building under construction on North Main Street in Fall River.

[Kat]

My source was Ancestry's Family Data Collection, Individual Records Collection, and birth records. I also found the same that most of you found -- a marriage to Cornell too. From what I understand that collection was gathered for a genetic study and information was gathered from a variety of sources. Might be best that we think of it as a secondary source for the most part.

--Patsy

You are absolutely right. Ancestry is an ambiguous source. I'm glad you say it would be considered *secondary.* Thanks!

[Harry]

... Doesn't anyone find it curious that Andrew got into a verbal argument with David's uncle, Charles Horton, on the day of the murder. To my knowledge, the source of the dispute was never revealed. Harry, you are the keeper of obscure sources. Do you know?

From my obscure sources file. I don't know if it was an argument but two different newspapers reported on Horton and Andrew's meeting. This is from the Fall River Evening News of Aug. 5th:

"Suspicious Circumstance."

Another story which has been run down is the following: Mr. Borden, while standing on the post office steps yesterday morning, was seen talking with a thick set man, emphasizing his remarks by a gesticulation of his hand and forefinger, a rather unusual demonstration for a man of so calm a temperament. The gentleman with whom this conversation was held was Mr. Charles M. Horton, and the subject matter had relation to the block which Mr. Horton is now erecting on North Main street. Mr. Horton says the conversation was held within 10 minutes of half-past 10 o'clock."

A similar item appeared in the Boston Globe, also on the 5th.

"On the way home he met Charles Horton, a wealthy real estate holder, and the two stood talking on the sidewalk in front of City Hall. Mr. Horton is just erecting a block on Main st., near Mr. Borden's, and in the conversation relative to it Mr. Borden became demonstratively interested, passers-by noticing him clapping his hands and gesticulating. After leaving Mr. Horton he walked slowly home."

Horton is one of those people who certainly has useful information as to the time Andrew was enroute home but was never called at any of the hearings. I believe Porter's book mentions him and possibly Williams' but he is in general ignored by the books on the case.

[DWilly]

... Doesn't anyone find it curious that Andrew got into a verbal argument with David's uncle, Charles Horton, on the day of the murder. To my knowledge, the source of the dispute was never revealed. Harry, you are the keeper of obscure sources. Do you know?

From my obscure sources file. I don't know if it was an argument but two different newspapers reported on Horton and Andrew's meeting. This is from the Fall River Evening News of Aug. 5th:

"Suspicious Circumstance."

Another story which has been run down is the following: Mr. Borden, while standing on the post office steps yesterday morning, was seen talking with a thick set man, emphasizing his remarks by a gesticulation of his hand and forefinger, a rather unusual demonstration for a man of so calm a temperament. The gentleman with whom this conversation was held was Mr. Charles M. Horton, and the subject matter had relation to the block which Mr. Horton is now erecting on North Main street. Mr. Horton says the conversation was held within 10 minutes of half-past 10 o'clock."

A similar item appeared in the Boston Globe, also on the 5th.

"On the way home he met Charles Horton, a wealthy real estate holder, and the two stood talking on the sidewalk in front of City Hall. Mr. Horton is just erecting a block on Main st., near Mr. Borden's, and in the conversation relative to it Mr. Borden became demonstratively interested, passers-by noticing him clapping his hands and gesticulating. After leaving Mr. Horton he walked slowly home."

Horton is one of those people who certainly has useful information as to the time Andrew was enroute home but was never called at any of the hearings. I believe Porter's book mentions him and possibly Williams' but he is in general ignored by the books on the case.

I don't think it was odd at all for Andrew Borden to be talking to Charles Horton "a wealthy real estate holder." What I do find odd is how talking to someone gets turned into an "argument" or a "dispute." This is what happens when people "like" a theory. They start to take things and turn them around to fit their theory.

[Kat]

Thanks Harry and thanks for your efforts in the realm of *Obscure Sources!*

Cynthia, do you have your source for a "verbal argument?" Is it an author?

[nbcatlover]

Kat--I believe I read it here, when the location of the buildings was being discussed. At the time I made the note about the argument, I didn't even know Charles Horton was a relative of David's. I'll need to do some searches of back posts.


Harry's files are the first I've seen about Andrew's hand clapping and gesticulating.

I've got to look through my Evening Standard file again to see how it was reported.

[nbcatlover]

I did find "Suspicious Circumstances" posted under the topic CITY HALL CLOCK, but somewhere there is a report of Andrew arguing with someone on the steps of the Post Office or the City Hall...still searching.

[DWilly]

I did find "Suspicious Circumstances" posted under the topic CITY HALL CLOCK, but somewhere there is a report of Andrew arguing with someone on the steps of the Post Office or the City Hall...still searching.

Well, I know how frustrating it is when you know you've read something somewhere then when you're asked about it you have trouble finding it. I have had that happen to me more than once.

Anyway, my main point is that there does seem to be a disagreement on whether or not it was actually an argument or simply two of Fall River's movers and shakers talking about a building going up. Maybe they were arguing about the building? Just because Horton was a relative of David Anthony I don't think you can read into it that the argument was about Lizzie. I would like to see a quote from someone who can say it was about Lizzie. Otherwise it looks to me as if you are simply taking things and sort of moving them around to fit a theory you clearly like and want to believe. Sort of reminds me of this whole DaVinci Code thing going on. I saw an interview with Michael Baigent the author of "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" and "The Jesus Papers" and that's what he does. Lots of "could have," " might have," " you can't prove otherwise." Etc. I think the Arnold Brown theory is based on the same type of work.

[Kat]

Someone remind me as to how we know that Charles Horton was a realative of David Anthony?

Also, it was a good thing this came up so we can decide if this was an argument, or a discussion on that corner. We may not really know. It's a good point.

However, please we should refrain from attributing ulterior motives to members here who wish to discuss these things.
There is not really an agenda going on in the Ruby case- more likely someone has a specialized interest they wish to pursue- and they are willing to travel, ask questions, look in old dusty records and actually go out and find things.
I applaud such endeavors.
If we keep up with the info, we can make our own informed decisions.

Thanks, Cynthia for looking!

[Harry]

Wasn't David Anthony's mother's maiden name Horton? The same Horton line?

See this thread:

http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Archi ... maruby.htm

Neilson Caplain's article in this month's Hatchet has a brief mention of the Horton building on North Main St.

[Kat]

Thanks Harry!
I was just reviewing our magazine issue that dealt with Ruby- Oct/Nov 2004. I see that David's sister is married to a Horton as well, according to a census.

But did I miss a connection here on Charles?

[diana]

I missed the same connection. Is Charles Horton the brother of David's mother, Ruth? How do we know?

[DWilly]

Someone remind me as to how we know that Charles Horton was a realative of David Anthony?

Also, it was a good thing this came up so we can decide if this was an argument, or a discussion on that corner. We may not really know. It's a good point.

However, please we should refrain from attributing ulterior motives to members here who wish to discuss these things.
There is not really an agenda going on in the Ruby case- more likely someone has a specialized interest they wish to pursue- and they are willing to travel, ask questions, look in old dusty records and actually go out and find things.
I applaud such endeavors.
If we keep up with the info, we can make our own informed decisions.

Thanks, Cynthia for looking!

I appreciate all of the hard work that goes into doing the research and do enjoy reading it. You are right about keeping up with the information and making a decision. I do however see nothing wrong with questioning other's conclusions or theories. I have been questioned and certainly understand why. I know Ray has been questioned about his views.

[DWilly]

Personally speaking, I think there about 5 or so main families in Fall Rivers and you could probably find out that just about everyone in that town is related in one way or another to all of them

[nbcatlover]

At one time I did post David's genealogy. Charles Horton is David's mother's brother. The area where the building was going up was right near where the entire family, including David, was living.

When school finally finishes, I'll have to go through the sources I have. I believe it was reported as an argument at the post office, and I believe Harry described the location of city hall to the post office.

The point is that whatever "gestulating" meant, Charles (Mason) Horton was never interviewed by the police, which differs from all Andrew's other known contacts that morning though their contact was reported in the papers. That is the point which is curious. (I just reviewed the list of Witness Statements to make sure I'm not misspeaking again.)

[nbcatlover]

Hey, Kat--The topic SLOOP MABEL F. SWIFT should get moved here to Heritage--that's where the early Anthony stuff is. I'm not sure if the Horton side was put online...still looking...

P.S. The topic GUSTAVUS SWIFT should go here too. It has some of the early Anthony and Bowen stuff that started the discussion of where to put all this historical stuff. And topic MORSE'S HISTORY and the WILLIAM S. BORDEN TREE.

[DWilly]

... Doesn't anyone find it curious that Andrew got into a verbal argument with David's uncle, Charles Horton, on the day of the murder. To my knowledge, the source of the dispute was never revealed. Harry, you are the keeper of obscure sources. Do you know?

From my obscure sources file. I don't know if it was an argument but two different newspapers reported on Horton and Andrew's meeting. This is from the Fall River Evening News of Aug. 5th:

"Suspicious Circumstance."

Another story which has been run down is the following: Mr. Borden, while standing on the post office steps yesterday morning, was seen talking with a thick set man, emphasizing his remarks by a gesticulation of his hand and forefinger, a rather unusual demonstration for a man of so calm a temperament. The gentleman with whom this conversation was held was Mr. Charles M. Horton, and the subject matter had relation to the block which Mr. Horton is now erecting on North Main street. Mr. Horton says the conversation was held within 10 minutes of half-past 10 o'clock."

A similar item appeared in the Boston Globe, also on the 5th.

"On the way home he met Charles Horton, a wealthy real estate holder, and the two stood talking on the sidewalk in front of City Hall. Mr. Horton is just erecting a block on Main st., near Mr. Borden's, and in the conversation relative to it Mr. Borden became demonstratively interested, passers-by noticing him clapping his hands and gesticulating. After leaving Mr. Horton he walked slowly home."

Horton is one of those people who certainly has useful information as to the time Andrew was enroute home but was never called at any of the hearings. I believe Porter's book mentions him and possibly Williams' but he is in general ignored by the books on the case.

Do we know for certain that the Police never questioned Horton? Or was it he simply wasn't called in during the Inquest? Perhaps the Police thought the whole thing was no big deal? In one of the articles posted by Harry it's clear someone talked to Horton because he is the one that tells them at what time the conversation took place. I highlighted the part in Harry's post where Horton seems to be telling the time. Am I reading that wrong?

[nbcatlover]

As far as I know, it was only newspapermen who chased down Charles Horton. He is not listed on the police list for Witness Statements, which does mention a woman who lived in the Bowen house who they sought a statement from for several weeks and she eluded them. I think if the police had tried, his name would have been there too.

But of course, as a prominent person, maybe Marshall Hilliard or the Mayor spoke to him "behind the scenes."