Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Nance O'Neill's family per 1880 census:

George Lamson age 50 Auctioneer b. MA
Arre Lamson age 30 Keep House b. TN
Lillian Lamson age 9 At School b. CA
Gertrude Lamson age 5 At School b. CA

They also had a servant named Mary Washington age 25 b. MD

I have come across a stage actress circa 1906 named "Lillian Lamson" and "The King of the Silent Serials" actor William Desmond had a first wife named "Lillian Lamson" who died in 1917. Are these the same Lillian Lamson, and is this Lillian Lamson our Nance's sister?

Also, William Desmond had a daughter who appeared in a movie billed as Mary Jo Desmond. Is this Lillian Lamson's child or his second wife's, actress Mary McIvor?

Help! Does anyone know?

That is good stuff, Cynthia!
Someone mentioned Nance's sister as named "Lizzie" I think, but your stuff sounds more authentic.

Anyway, Nance was born October 8, 1874, so that about matches the age of your Gertrude in the 1880 census.
(Rebello, 308)

Kat @ Sat Jun 03, 2006 3:20 am wrote:That is good stuff, Cynthia!
Someone mentioned Nance's sister as named "Lizzie" I think, but your stuff sounds more authentic.

Anyway, Nance was born October 8, 1874, so that about matches the age of your Gertrude in the 1880 census.
(Rebello, 308)

It is a bit confusing. From what I have read I think Lillian sometimes used the name "Lizzie" on stage. Just as Gertrude eventually ends up being called "Nance."

When I found this stuff, I thought I would write it up because, in the past, when things have been written about Nance in the past, people have come forward with curious bits of information that had gone "underground" in the L. A. area, but that "old timers" still remember.

Lamson's are like Bordens; the same names occur over and over again so it's hard to be sure it's the same person.

Nance/Gertrude's father was known as George F. To the best of my knowledge, though Nance named Oakland as her birthplace, her father's auction house was at 425 Kearny Street in San Francisco.

I found him by searching "Lamson + Morse" (and Wikipedia had mentioned the auction connection), because the Morses' seem to be related to everybody, and sure enough, there was an auctioneer named George D. Morse who had his business on Market Street in SFO at the same time.
The 1880 census seemed to verify his name.

Perhaps Denise Noe can get some more info. When I was searching "William Desmond," I came across her article on William Desmond Taylor's murder (another actor) for Crime Library. Maybe she has some inside sources?

From:

Sixty years in Southern California, 1853-1913, containing the reminiscences of Harris Newmark. Edited by Maurice H. Newmark; Marco R. Newmark
CHAPTER XITHE RUSH FOR GOLD1855
P. 155

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/pt ... t=;loc=154

George F. Lamson was an auctioneer who arrived in Los Angeles in 1855. Aside from the sale of live stock, there was not much business in his line; although, as I have said, Dr. Osburn, the Postmaster, also had an auction room. Sales of household effects were held on a Tuesday or a Wednesday; while horses were offered for sale on Saturdays. Lamson had the typical auctioneer's personality; and many good stories were long related, illustrating his humor, wit and amusing impudence by which he often disposed, even to his friends, of almost worthless objects at high prices. A daughter Gertrude, widely known as Lillian Nance O'Neill, never married; another daughter, Lillian, is the wife of William Desmond, the actor.

Does anyone know if Nance O' Neil had any children? I have been browsing around in a few places, but I haven't found anything saying that she did or that she didn't have children.

Have you seen this article before? "Nance O'Neil-Her Travels and Her Art," by Helen Fitzgerald Sanders. It mentions that she graduated from Snell's Seminary in Berkeley and has several photos from her stay in Tyngsboro (including her maid Tolo and her dog Togo).

It's from
Overland monthly and Out West magazine By Bret Harte, Anton Roman.

http://books.google.com/books?id=51k4AA ... 22&f=false

Fargo--have been doing more research and haven't found any kiddies by McKee Rankin, Lizzie, or Freddy Hickman thus far.

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Galleries ... nance5.jpg

Right now, I'm trying to figure out when, exactly, Nance split from Rankin.

Also, does anyone know the exact date Emma left Maplecroft. In Rebello, the newspaper articles of Nance's stay are dated June 3 and of Emma leaving begin June 4 of 1905.

I came across a list of Rankin's roles on stage and noted he appeared in Fall River in May of 1905 on this list.

5/3 Elizabeth Fall River, MA
5/4 Lowell, MA
5/5 Haverhill, MA
5/6 Worcester, MA
5/8 Newport, RI
5/10 I.ynn, MA
5/11 Lawrence, MA
6/17-22 Magda/Schwartze Melbourne (Australia) Her Majesty's

Source: http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:u0J ... ient=opera

I can't help but note that Rankin was touring New England the month before the split between Lizzie and Emma (possibly over Nance). Unfortunately, I don't have a time line for how many days it would take Rankin to get to Australia yet. I can't help but speculate that Rankin could be a catalyst for stirring up trouble. Did Lizzie spend the money for the house in Tyngsboro for Nance to keep Nance from returning to Australia with Rankin--the country where she was such a triumph on the stage?

A romantic triangle, perhaps, for all you fiction writers?

Can anyone help me with some of my questions?

Very interesting stuff NBcatlover. Guess I wasn't up to speed but I didn't know that Emma's leaving and Nance's staying were so very closely connected.

Cynthia, I found this in Williams' book, page 238:

"Sunday Herald Report

Source: Sunday Herald news clipping from the files of the Fall River Historical Society.

LIZZIE BORDEN LEFT BY SISTER
Former Writing Play for Nance O'Neil --
Emma Borden Objects to Actress,
Entertainment of Theatrical People and to Coachman.

FALL RIVER, June 3, 1905. After repeated disagreements, Lizzie A. Borden and her sister, Emma Borden, have parted company. Several days ago Miss Emma packed up her belongings, called a moving wagon and shook the dust of the French street home, where they have lived together ever since the acquittal in the famous murder trial, from her feet. She is reported to have moved to Fairhaven. ..."

June 3, 1905 was a Saturday.

Thanks, Harry. That article makes it seem like Emma could have left at the end of May, even. "several days ago" from June 3.

I wonder what the date of the party was? More digging needed here.

Does anyone know what Emma's objection to the Coachman was all about?

I suspect Emma had an aversion to anything/anyone with sexual overtones...in other words, I believe Emma was a prude.

NBcatlover, I think I am missing something here. How is a coachman sexual?

Rebello, page 288:

Tatro, Joseph H., head man for the Bordens, white, male, born Feb., 1863, age 37, single, born in Rhode Island, father born in Rhode Island, mother born in Rhode Island, occupation, head
man.

Note: Joseph H. Tatro, also spelled Tetrault, was employed by Emma and Lizzie Borden from 1899-1902 and 1904-1908. When Emma left Lizzie in 1905, newspapers reported that Emma Borden did not like Mr. Tetrault nor his "doings or position as coachman." He had been dismissed and returned to his job as a barber. He was later rehired as coachman and
remained at French Street until 1908. "Miss Emma is said to have still found offense in his comfortable preferment. Tetrault was a fine looking young man and reported to be very popular among the ladies, although Miss Emma took a dislike to him." Mr. Tetrault left Fall River in 1908 and moved to Providence, Rhode Island.

My friend's father is still alive, age 80, and his name is Joseph Tetreault! And he had been a barber as had been others in his family. Actually, he told my friend, when I asked her to ask him about this, that there were a lot of Joseph Tetreaults in R.I.!

Thank you Kat for that info on Joseph Tetreault the Coachman for the Borden sisters. Sounds to me that Emma was beyond prudish and was just a fuddy duddy when it came to anything approaching real and fun....the woman should have been a nun.

You're welcome.

Of Victorian days, in fiction I have read of the period that the division between Master and Servant or Mistress and servant should be wide, and that being friendly with the 'help' ruins them for other positions in another household, due to their expecting familiarity in future.
The 'help' were inferior and should not be led astray- taught bad habits by the Mistress- an example should be set of distance and aloof courtesy, if not downright blindness when the 'help' is around.
Also, when Harry and I toured the Breakers the guide talked about places made for servants to 'disappear' into when the head of household walked thru the chamber. At the Palace in England, even now, servants have to step back to the closest wall and freeze if royalty walks by.

Anyway, I think Emma did not fraternize with servants as she was possibly raised that way, a remnant of an earlier era- whereas Lizzie made friends of her staff (as a more 'modern' woman, maybe?)

Raised in the same household, only 9 yrs between them.....I stand by Emma just being a fuddy duddy!

Supposedly, Joseph Tetrault had been indicted for adultery end of June/beginning of July, 1890. There was supposed to have been an article in the Fall River paper at the time. Unfortunately, I have had no time to look up newspaper archives. This was new info to me...cannot even verify if same Joseph Tetrault (Tetreault, Tatro). At one time, this was a very common name in Bristol County.

If he had gained notoriety on his own, I can understand why Emma didn't want him chauffeuring Lizzie about town...it would just give those gossiping tongues more to say!

Thanks Nbcatlover, I guess no kids yet for Nance, that we know of.

There is an article in one of The Hatchet Issues where a story is told of Emma Leaving Maplecroft because of a servant who did something, like have an affair with the maid or something. Its been awhile since I read it.

Rebello has this on Tetrault (page 288):

"Note: Joseph H. Tatro, also spelled Tetrault, was employed by Emma and Lizzie Borden from 1899-1902 and 1904-1908. When Emma left Lizzie in 1905, newspapers reported that Emma Borden did not like Mr. Tetrault nor his "doings or position as coachman." He had been dismissed and returned to his job as a barber. He was later rehired as coachman and remained at French Street until 1908. "Miss Emma is said to have still found offense in his comfortable preferment. Tetrault was a fine looking young man and reported to be very popular among the ladies, although Miss Emma took a dislike to him." Mr. Tetrault left Fall River in 1908 and moved to Providence, Rhode Island."

And on page 310:

"Emma separated from Lizzie in 1905 and never returned to Maplecroft.
Rumors prevailed as to the reasons Emma left Lizzie. It was reported that the Borden sisters had many long-standing disagreements. Emma was not pleased with Lizzie's relationship with theater people, especially Nance O'Neil. She also objected to the coachman, Joseph Tetrault, a former barber, known to have been a fine looking man and very popular among the ladies. He was dismissed as coachman and returned to his former trade. Lizzie later rehired him."

As an aside, (Arthur) McKee Rankin had 3 daughters:

By wife, Kitty Blanchard (stage name-real first name Olivera ?surname):

Gladys Rankin married Sidney Drew (Barrymore uncle)
Phyllis Rankin married Harry Davenport

Daughter by an unnamed actress (probably not Nance who would have been about 13 when Doris was born in 1888):

Doris Rankin married Lionel Barrymore at age 16, 2 children who both died as infants
Also married Malcolm Mortimer-2 children by 2nd husband.

Harry, in Rebello, p. 288, Tetreault was said to have gone to Providence. Kat had posted a list on the forum of people involved in the case who were buried at Oak Grove
Cemetery. Joseph H. Tetreault was a name on the list. Do we have a death date for him? Are we sure it's the same person?

I've tried looking stuff up locally at one point in time, but there were so many Quebecois in the area that Joseph Tetreault was a very common name.

Hope he's not the "love letter" guy in Parallel Lives. Food for thought.

Fargo--I finally found the time to look up the article from THE HATCHET, April, 2005 (Why Emma Left by Claire Somers, pp. 20-24). The story purports to be a recollection by Elise Wright concerning her grandmother, Hannah Nelson. It concerns a sexual liaison Emma discovers by a servant, Ann, and Tatro at Maplecroft while Lizzie was away. Lizzie didn't believe this had occurred. Emma got mad because she had believed Lizzie and supported her when she was accused of murder, but Lizzie didn't believe her and supported Tatro about his unseemly behavior in their home. Then, after Emma left, Tatro gets Hannah pregnant (dying after childbirth at Rhode Island Hospital) with Elise Wright being his descendant. Then Lizzie realizes why Emma was so upset with her to move out. Unfortunately, this April 2005 story ends with a punchline--it's an April Fools' Day joke.

While the Tatro story Claire Somers wrote seems so plausible, it does not relate any true information about the reason Emma left. (But it's a great read!) Somers added so many real details to the fiction, you really want to believe the story she wrote. (Note: Claire Somers is Sherry Chapman.)

nbcatlover @ Sun Feb 07, 2010 1:32 pm wrote:I suspect Emma had an aversion to anything/anyone with sexual overtones...in other words, I believe Emma was a prude.

I too believe Emma was a fuddy duddy. She was rather protected (from any testosterone laden individuals) living at home for all those years, so any male in Lizzie's new staff at Maplecroft was bound to unsettle and possibly intimidate Emma.

Personally, I think Emma was the latent lesbian. I think Lizzie was either hetero- or bi-.

I go with the speculation that Emma most likely felt that a wide berth should be kept between a servant and master/mistress, and if Tatro (don't want to spell the other name) stepped beyond his bounds she may have been infuriated if Lizzie didn't agree with that belief.

Or she felt conflicted about having to go against her grain and having to stick to her instilled standards, that is if perhaps she felt titillated by him. Oh well just rattling on here.

No, patsy, you have a point. Emma was old-fashioned for her times compared to Lizzie. Emma requested negro pall-bearers for her funeral which sort of went "out of fashion" after the Civil War. Emma's views were more reflective of Andrew's era as opposed to the "Gay 90s."