Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Yes it's been called a water tank in the testimony. But it looks like it has the "guts" of a toilet tank- and it's up high like "The Crapper." So it's confusing.

Good pic tho! I had to stand on a chair.

The pipe in the cellar chimney does line up with the position of the tank on the third floor so it may have emptied right into the cauldron. Using rainwater for laundry during that era was thought to be superior as it was "soft" water. Now with all the acidity, rainwater would probably eat holes in the laundry.

Others have suggested this might simply be a water cistern which would have supplied water to the second floor kitchen when the house was a 2-family. The ballcock device , also used in toilet tanks is just a mechanism to prevent overflow. I would tend to doubt this was ever plumbing for a toilet or watercloset , being on the third floor , in an area reserved usually for servants or storage, although who knows what went on when it was a bording house up on the third floor. A fun mystery to pursue.

Jay, were you asking what that "bleeding brick" picture is?

ick!

I was just totally confused by the strange toilet thing in the closet, never seen anything like that before.

The pipe oozing is in the cellar, the bricks are stained from whatever is running out of that pipe in the chimney over the wash cauldron. Makes a great conversation piece.

Here is the front door.
When you look at it with your eyes you don't see these marks. It's odd they show up in a photo.
The thing that comes out and goes down on the right is the wiring for the doorbell that doesn't work.
The wiring, we were told, was not 1892ish. The wiring was on both sides of the front door to each doorbell.

Harry holds the keyhole door open.

I took this pic while Har was sitting in the sitting room. I stood in the doorway to the dining room, by the kitchen, and did not aim at anything and did not turn on the light. It was night. I didn't get anything, other than a somewhat out-of-focus photo.

I did seem to gravitate to the dining room this visit. Not the cellar.

I was alone in the House a couple of times while others were in the barn/gift shop. I roamed the House with my mind empty. I ended up in the dining room. And that's after wandering all the second and first floor rooms.

So this is a pic of the dark dining room at night with no light on in there.

Oh here ya go! This was creepy:
The first night (travel day) when everyone was retiring, I went into Lizzie's room and sat on the lounge. I didn't turn on the light. I thought I could sit and meditate maybe 30 minutes. No way!

I very quickly experienced a feeling of dread in my middle upper chest. It just got heavier and I did not like it.
It was like the dread one might get when they're told someone they love is sick or dying. Not exactly, but similar.
A feeling like "I wish this would end but I'm afraid of the end." I think I lasted about 3 minutes in there that night. I only passed thru her room ever after that.

Then the last day, I went into the cellar for a bottle of water. I had been alone in the House for about 40 minutes. I wandered over to the middle cellar, and over to the chimney-back that is open like a threshold doorway. It is one cellar room after the sink room, towards the street.
I walked up to the fireplace frame (white brick) and immediately felt a kind of horror and my eyes were drawn to this lump laying there about waist-high. It was creepy and ugly and I backed away.
I called Shelley down to ask her to check what it was. She said it was a blob of old concrete. Ugh! I left the cellar after that.

I don't have any idea what this means or what it doesn't mean. But those of you who know of my "sensitivites" were probably wondering if I "got" anything and those were the 2 things. I wasn't looking- believe me! They may be totally subjective.

Actually it looked like either a warty toad or a blob of pigeon poo- I had to think a minute before picking it up. Oddly enough, it was not there a few days before. Must be left by that "Man in the Chimney".

Kat @ Mon May 21, 2007 9:00 pm wrote:The Bridget Closet- tank- inside view
It looks like a toilet tank- and I don't understand it.

From what I was reading about toilet and cistern tanks from the Victorian era, that float should be copper or even glass. Could you tell from looking at it close up if it was metal of some kind, Kat? Its hard to tell in the photo, it almost looks like a modern plastic one? The tank itself appears to be lined in copper which makes the tank from the right era.

I have never personally been tall enough to look down into the tank.
On a chair, I had to reach up and over and point the camera down and hope I got a shot.
That's how I got that second pic of the edges and how the tank was made. That was the first shot I took- "blind" so to speak- and adjusted from there.
Isn't t funny that probably around the time I was doing that, my own hall bathroom ball-cock contraption began leaking from under the tank? Plumber today. Over $100.

I never thought that I could stay in the house over night, but then I remembered that it had been a private residence for many, many years and no one was worse for wear from having lived there. Do you think or have you ever heard that the previous inhabitants ever had those kinds of feelings while being in the house?

Mrs. Josephine McGinn never seemed to harbor any restless or eerie feelings, but Martha, her grand daughter has been interviewed numerous times on Lizzie docs and told stories of seeing a grey lady drift across the floor in the cellar, with leg o' muttons and a bun of hair, drifting towards the old washroom. She also mentioned the sound of marbles rolling on the floor over Lizzie's room- supposedly the spirits of those poor children tossed into the well behind the Kelly house.

Employees of the house have had many stories about feelings, impressions, ghostly sounds and happenings. Michelle (former house day manager) was changing a light bulb on the top of the front staircase and lost her balance when suddenly, unseen hands steadied her on the ladder. Amanda saw an imprint of a body on a newly-made bed in the guestroom. Hearing footsteps walking around and up and down the front staircase when the house is empty is very common- heard those myself. Eleanor, who has worked at the house for 10 years has endless stories of ectoplasmic manifestations, sounds, voices, being touched when walking by the sofa, the Phantom Cat legend, etc.

Being of a highly skeptical nature personally, I must admit with a sheepish grin, that I have heard the sound of dishes being put away clearly in the kitchen-the scraping of plates, the clinking of dishes- when I was there alone. I thought about looking for a moment, then decided to go back to my book, which I was reading while sitting in the red chair in the sitting room.

I have attended many seances in the house and once in a while there is some ominous banging from the cellar. I am not sure if it is just coincidence. Old house make a lot of noise, and when the bus station was there, door were always popping open from the bus causing vibrations on the street. There have been plenty of quack psychics at the house too- in fact I think most of them make it up as they go along. One or two have been convincing. Katherine Ramsland was a class act. She writes of her experience in GHOST. One of the silliest was the lady who experienced presentiments and past glimpses through her stomach! It would bellow in and out like a balloon.

So many people have lived in that house- and no doubt died in that house other than the Bordens, I wonder how much can be attributed to the deaths of Abby and Andrew, how much might be other influences, and just how much can be simply explained by normal, everyday science. I would guess MOST would be the latter.

Shelley @ Wed May 23, 2007 9:48 am wrote: Employees of the house have had many stories about feelings, impressions, ghostly sounds and happenings. Michelle (former house day manager) was changing a light bulb on the top of the front staircase and lost her balance when suddenly, unseen hands steadied her on the ladder. Amanda saw an imprint of a body on a newly-made bed in the guestroom. Hearing footsteps walking around and up and down the front staircase when the house is empty is very common- heard those myself. Eleanor, who has worked at the house for 10 years has endless stories of ectoplasmic manisfestations, sounds, voices, being touched when walking by the sofa, the Phantom Cat legend, etc.

I went to a thing that they have at night in the old Farnsworth House in Gettysburg and they talk about the same kind of things. The woman that lives and works there said the same thing about almost falling down the front stairs and seeing something in the corner of her eye and having something hold her back from falling. All very interesting.

Well, many guests have a good time being jumpy and spooked, so I hate to ruin their fun. Most old or historic places have a certain "energy" just by virtue of having something memorable occur there. The combination of old smells, antiques, expectations, and a grisly story help to fuel the imagination.

I find guests often fall into two catagories, the history buffs and the ghost folks. Sometimes there is an overlap and nearly always the history -loving people snort with indignation at seances, ectoplasm and orbs. I think this orb nonsense is nothing but moisture or dust particles. We keep a red file folder in the kitchen drawer of interesting photos guests have taken, capturing unusual things on film. Some are clearly developing chemicals, shadows, reflected light, etc.- but a few are rather hard to explain.

Last Friday night I had a couple from Yarmouth England and they were both history, non-ghostie people. Yet while on the house tour in the cellar about 9 that night, the husband of the pair jumped visibly and said he saw a "black presence" -a shape looming from side to side within the chimney over the wash cauldron.. He was visibly shaken by this and remarked on it several times. We then turned off the lights and got some good shots of that face in the back of the chimney. So- I try not to rain on anybody's fun, and once in a while, strange things do pop up

Fall River Globe, , Friday, August 5, 1892, 1+

THE BUTCHERY

..."The opinions that were circulated and the stories that were told were those which are duplicated only once in a quarter of a century. One well known citizen of mature years recalled that

Another Horrible Tragedy

had been enacted in the vicinity of the Borden residence, in the yard of the house occupied now by Dr. Kelly.

Between 30 and 40 years a woman named Borden had thrown her three young children into a cistern to drown and afterward jumped in and died with them. She endeavored to get her fourth child in with the rest, but the little one escaped and is now the happy mother of a prosperous family in the southern part of the city."

Andrew's Uncle Ladowick Borden had several wives over time and it's somewhat tradition to assume it was one of his wives who committed suicide and his children who were murdered. However, Laddy lived upon the double lot of the Borden residence. It has 2 addresses, after all.

A straight razor to the throat is the method usually heard about the poor Mrs. Borden who killed herself and yes, one child survived. I believe it was the Maria Briggs Borden, and at the trial when the question of Lizzie's sanity surfaced, this old case came up only to be dismissed as Mrs. Laddy Borden was only a Borden by marriage, not a blood relation.

Here's 3 more photos taken on the cliff walk at the end of Ruggles Avenue.

Yet 3 more. The first is the south side of the house. Note the fake window on the first floor, left.

The second is the front of the house looking north down Second St. That pear tree seemed a lot smaller last year.

Third Kat took of me in the mandatory pose on the sitting room sofa.

I tend to ignore orb photos too, but only cuz it really could just be dust or many other things....its the faces and similar things that interest me :P....

I love the ghost stuff and the history stuff, I can talk about either for hours heheh.

Well, you will have to come visit sometime- you live exactly 15 minutes from my house. I used to live in Mystic back in 1977-79.
Sorry I missed you at the house last week.

Those are great photos Harry! Even the one I took of you.

That's a longer sofa this year than ever before, I believe.
Thanks!

(Hi Jay!)

Oh -- I see that "orb" you are referring to!

The sofa in the barn is the one which used to be in the house- and it is shorter. The black velvet one in the sitting room now is maybe 3-4 inches longer.

What fantastic pictures. I haven't been there is a long time & it makes me want to go back & visit. Question for you Harry, the pictures you took in the hall at the Breakers. The middle portrait looks like it was done by John Singer Sargeant. Maybe the style of the portait makes me think this, by chance would you know the artist. It's also the first time I ever heard anything like that being for sale.

No, sorry Lorraine, I didn't notice the painter's name. Even looking at the original photo, which is substantially larger, I can't see a name. When taking the photos I was more concerned with taking them at an angle to avoid flashback on the photo.

On the Doris Duke painting this name appears:



On the 3rd photo this:



I don't think any of them were originals but probably lithographs. I may have misspoken about these particular paintings being for sale but there were others on the opposite wall that were. If I remember correctly they were in the $600 to $700 range.

Thanks for checking the painting Harry, appreciate it. I forgot to say I like the photo of you on the sofa. Didn't it feel a little eerie being in that exact spot? I wouldn't have closed my eyes for a minute if it was me!! It sure looks like you both had such a wonderful time. I'm happy for you.

There have been guests who won't sit there- when I've been there. Personally I don't sit there- when I do my recreation on the couch it's always at the other end!

Kat and Harry I love the pictures and the stories of your trip! I haven't posted much but I've been following the thread, and I hope there is still more to come. That is odd that those marks showed up on the door when they do not appear to the naked eye. I wonder why? Anyway, I hope you know I've been living vicariously through your pictures and stories. Thanks so much for sharing them.

Sofa doesnt bother me at all. Everytime i sit there and relax im just always trying to figure which way the murderer came from... the thing thats eerie is if you look straight ahead while sitting on the couch is the picture of Andrew dead, usually gives me a very odd feeling :P lol.

Awsome picturs!! I have always wanted to see what the breakers looks like, other than what is on tv. Now I know that's what I have to do for may b-day present, other than seeing the borden house. Thanks guys.

The pictures and stories of your trip are awesome. I never cease to be fascinated by all the great stuff shared and discussed here. Thank you for sharing your trip with us.

Not so sure I'd lie on that sofa though. EEK!

There is an old house in my town that still has a similar looking box which was lined with lead and was installed for the water system back in the day . Water was pumped up from cisterns that were filled with rain water from the roof. The water moved to the lavatories and sinks by way of gravity. I wonder if this relates to the box in Bridget's closet.

Aha, I got orbs!

I shot this photo of the back stairs leading from the side door up to the second floor. At the top of the stairs is Abbie and Andrew's bedroom.

Do you think it's them?

Aren't we lucky to have the house and crime scene intact?!!
Those poor Ripperoligists don't!

Harry's got Orbs! Who woulda thot?

There is an old house in my town that still has a similar looking box which was lined with lead and was installed for the water system back in the day . Water was pumped up from cisterns that were filled with rain water from the roof. The water moved to the lavatories and sinks by way of gravity. I wonder if this relates to the box in Bridget's closet.

--patsy

Can you explain how this works a bit more please? I'm still trying to understand it.
The tank is so very small, I don't see what use it is?
This is interesting.

The first photo is a 1900's toilet with the cistern holding only 2 gallons for a flush. The configuration is similar to the wooden tank in the closet in Bridget's room. A ninety degree pipe elbow would have been needed "in Bridget's closet". The second photo is 1902. If the contraption were a toilet in Bridget's room, it was added after 1892. Thank you, Thomas Crapper

Kat @ Sun May 27, 2007 9:44 pm wrote:Aren't we lucky to have the house and crime scene intact?!!
Those poor Ripperoligists don't!

Harry's got Orbs! Who woulda thot?

There is an old house in my town that still has a similar looking box which was lined with lead and was installed for the water system back in the day . Water was pumped up from cisterns that were filled with rain water from the roof. The water moved to the lavatories and sinks by way of gravity. I wonder if this relates to the box in Bridget's closet.

--patsy

Can you explain how this works a bit more please? I'm still trying to understand it.
The tank is so very small, I don't see what use it is?
This is interesting.

I see Shelley appears to have the answer. What I was trying to describe was a water supply for the whole house which was pumped into the holding tank and then was diverted through pipes to different areas.

We had a similar looking box to hold the water for flushing way back in the 1940s in Chicago. It was high up near the ceiling and had a chain to pull to release the water.

Shelley, has a plumber ever checked out that water tank in Bridget's closet? It would be interesting to get a professional's take on it, see if they can figure out what that tank was for originally.

I had mentioned Crapper earlier- because it looks like a tank for a toilet. I was in England in 1986 and saw these in the pubs as original Crappers. They were cool! We took pictures of ourselves pulling the chain!

But this is a little tank- it may not seem so in the picture I took and posted.
I figured you meant either gravity worked it or it was more modern as a toilet tank.
I didn't understand the explanation of the water "pumped up," yet also "filled with rain water from the roof."

I've heard of water being collected from the roof, but I thought that would be caught with gutters. Sorry, I didn't understand.

Well, I know a plumber to ask in the city- maybe the mystery of the "little box" will be solved at last next weekend..
That it was probably not there in 1892 is fairly certain. Maybe when the place was a boarding house it was needed on the third floor. The braces, shape and size look awfully like that first photo I posted above. It was well-searched for hidden hatchets by Kenny Souza back in 1995

Oh ratz! Are you saying the tank in Bridget's closet is probably not from the day?

Here is Hilliard at the preliminary hearing referencing a tank- it sure sounds like ours:

423
Q. There is no city water in the house, was there? There is none up stairs, so far as you know?
A. Yes Sir, I think there is a tank in what I should term a clothes press off of Bridget Sullivan’s room. Bridget’s room was on the east and south side of the house, the attic; and off of that was what I term a clothes press or room; and at the top of that, there was a wooden tank.

Well we know there was city water because they did not have to use their well and Lizzie had a pull chain toilet in the cellar and the barn, cellar sink and kitchen sinkroom had running water. I would think , logically speaking, if there had been a privy in Bridget's room, it would have been called a toilet or privy. Which once again gets back to the thought that this tank was not toilet-related, but some sort of cistern from something else. I think Len and Bill Pavao were the source for that thought. I have never pursued it further than that.

As long as it was there in Lizzie's and Bridget's day, I'm happy!
It's at the point I don't really care what it was used for!
It upset me to read you say "it was probably not there in 1892"- but I don't know why. That's why I looked it up.

My last plumber cost $95 to walk in the door! I hope your guy is cheaper!

Well, I meant a toilet would not have been likely up there in 1892. The two front rooms were just storage. (In fact, if you look in "Jennings", structurally that closet does not look original to the 1845 house-you can see inside the closet it was closed in later. "

With only servants and storerooms up in the attic, the chances there would be a toilet for a maid (and Irish at that- whose comfort was seldom considered), or the handyman if he spent a night were just about nil in 1892. I am trying to recall if Bridget mentions her chamberpot at any time...time to do wordsearch.

Then there is the possibility that the little cistern provided some rain water or more probably city water (piped up) for Bridget's wash bowl and pitcher. She would not need much- and then she would not have to carry it up all the steps from the sinkroom. Still, if that were done for servants on the third floor- you just KNOW Lizzie and Emma would have had the same deal for themselves. I can't imagine Lizzie not having a comfort the maid had and not protesting. What a chore Lizzie and Emma had to bring water up those steep front stairs to their room from the sinkroom without spilling anything walking through the diningroom or sittingroom and kitchen. They must have washed their hair in the sinkroom or cellar.

If you stand in the cellar in front of the wash cauldron, that oozy pipe inside the chimney just about lines up with that tank 3 floors above in Bridget's closet..

Bridget is asked if she brought down her slop pail when she came down and she says no.
"Q: You usually do in the morning?
A: Sometimes.
Q: Did you that morning?
A: No." (Bridget Sullivan: Preliminary Hearing)

She is also asked at the same hearing if she went to the water closet 'down cellar' on Thursday morning and says she didn't.

And when she's asked about the privy behind the barn her answer implies that was only used by Andrew and occasionally by Mrs. Borden ... leaving it difficult to determine where Bridget relieved herself that morning.

Thanks, Diana- that is exactly the bit I wanted. So, no toilet up there- the mystery continues. . . ..

I've been thinking a bit about this and realized that I've always considered 'slop pail' and 'chamber pot' to be synonymous. But I recently came across the definition of a slop pail which says it was used for waste water from a washbasin or a chamber pot.

So the slop pails Andrew and Lizzie brought down that morning didn't necessarily contain the contents of their chamber pots -- but could have just held the water from the washstands in their room, right?

I don't know how this is pertinent to anything -- but just thought I'd pass it along in case others had the same incorrect assumptions I did about the two containers.