Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Here's a picture of me in Lizzie's bedroom.

Yes Shelley. I remember the first bank vault. We hadn't asked if we could take pictures yet. Can you imagine coming in off the street and asking a bank to take pictures of its vault in today's day and age? I had to remind myself "This is the United Way? Not a bank!"

Here are some cool pictures of Ed

Another good Ed one

That picture of Ed lying on the couch is just a little too spooky.

Thanks for sharing the pictures of your visit Richard. I have enjoyed them. Thanks to mbhenty, Shelley, and Steves for hashing out the banks so I could understand things a little more clearly. I think I have a better handle on things now which puts that last walk into perspective.

My only remaining question about the banks is why Andrew visited so many of them on the morning of the murders.


I have to say I agree with Steves about the picture of Ed on the couch.

Loved the pictures!! Thanks for sharing!! Oh that one of Ed on the couch gives me the creeps!!

Yes Allen: The reason it appears that Borden visited so many banks is because there was more than one bank in a building at the time. Though the Citizens Savings bank was separate, it appears to be in the same building as 2 other banks.

In reality Borden Probably was visiting, or conducting business, with only 2 of them, the Union Savings Bank and the B.M.C. Durfee bank.

I remember growing up in Fall River and the talk about how Fall River, for a city its size, had more BANKS and SALOONS then any other city in the United States. Whether that is just myth or the truth, I would need to study.

I grew up in several neighborhoods in town, but mostly in the Flint section, on Pleasant Street. At that time there was a saloon on almost every corner of Pleasant Street thru the entire east end portion of Pleasant Street. Within a 10 block area there must of been 13 to 15 Saloons.

Just look at the arrest book with Lizzie's name in it- nearly every entry is for drunkenness, disorderly, or alcohol related. No wonder Dr. Cogswell gave that dandy fountain. I just noticed last week it had a little fish carved in it and a dog face on the level for dogs to drink. Wish it still worked.

Richard @ Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:23 pm wrote:Here's a picture of me in Lizzie's bedroom.

Yes Shelley. I remember the first bank vault. We hadn't asked if we could take pictures yet. Can you imagine coming in off the street and asking a bank to take pictures of its vault in today's day and age? I had to remind myself "This is the United Way? Not a bank!"

That is like Stefani and Harry trying to take pictures of the jail in New Bedford!

Thanks for the pictures Richard!

YES SHELLEY: Perhaps you do not want to visit this issue again, but just a short note.

Though I am pretty well versed in Fall River history, including certain particulars about the banks in Lizzie's time, I must shamefully confess to ignorance when talking about Andrew or Lizzie and their banking practices.

I was reading "The Rebello" earlier tonight and am content to reveal that Andrew "did indeed" have deposits in the Citizens Savings Bank. As a matter of fact, it appears as if he had 4 accounts with that institution. Along with the Citizens, it displays his accounts with FALL RIVER FIVE CENTS SAVINGS, FALL RIVER SAVINGS, POCASSET NATIONAL, and UNION SAVINGS BANK. (Leonard Rebello "Lizzie Borden Past and Present. pg. 279")

All the above deposits constitutes a mere fraction of his real wealth, only reflecting around 13,400 dollars in savings. For some reason, the above appears to be the only public record of Andrew's financial worth, that is, his savings in local banks according to probate records.

It does not show the Durfee bank. At that bank he sat on the board of directors and must have had money there. Who knows how many other banks he had money in. Rumors have him worth over 400 thousand, if I'm not mistaken. So, he must have had money all over, both as investments and ready cash.

From the Witness Statements page 29, August 7, 1892, from the notes of William Medley.

Mr. Everett Cook of the First National Bank gives the following statement. "Andrew J. Borden came to this Bank sometime about 10 o'clock; it might have been as early as 9.50. He does his business with us. That morning he deposited a check which was made payable to him by the Troy Mills. While making this deposit, Mr. William Carr came in. They talked together a few minutes, and Mr. Borden left the bank. He was here no more than ten minutes. While he was here I noticed that he looked tired and sick; knowing him so well, I could not help noticing that he looked real sick. I did not speak to him about it, because I thought he might consider it none of my business. He was alone when he came and went away from the bank."

Shelley @ Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:40 am wrote: Now we need to find out if Andrew had to go outside to enter the second bank or was there a door inside between

Trial testimony of Everett M. Cook page 169:

Q. Is there any other banking instituion in the same building with yours?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. What is that?
A. The B.M.C Durfee Safe Deposit and Trust Company.

Q. Had Mr. Borden any relation to your bank?
A. To the Trust Company. He was a director.

Q. The Trust Company is in the same building? Is it in the same room?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. In the same room as well as in the same building?
A. Behind the same counter.

Knowlton Papers Glossary A
CARR, WILLIAM1821 - 1893: born in Warren, Rhode Island, the son of William and Temperance (Smith) Carr. Following his marriage to Miss Elizabeth Valentine Durfee of Fall River, Massachusetts, in 1848, he and his wife resided in her native city. Among his business interests were the Borden Mining Company and Metacomet National Bank, two corporations for which he served as director. He was also an agent for the Fall River and Providence Steamboat Company. He maintained an active interest in the municipal affairs of his adopted city until the time of his death. He provided a statement to district police regarding any knowledge of insanity in the Borden family.


Knowlton Papers, document #106- "Sanity Survey"

..."William Carr lived in Fall River for 40 years I know the Bordons better then I know the Morses. The Bordons are peculiar people but I never heard that any of the Bordons or the Morses is or was ever Insane."

Respectfully,

Moulton Batchelder .
Dist. Police

Thanks for the information on Carr. Interesting to know he was one of the people involved in the "sanity survey". Andrew actually talked to him on the morning of his death.

It's funny, but I just pulled out 2 sheets of copy paper from my pile next to me last night and it was a list of people who were involved in the outskirts of the case who we know so little about.

It's an e-mail draft dated December, 2005, so if anyone here was working on this with me, please let me know?
For example: 3 men on the steps of Churchill's house the morning of the 4th:
Wm. Hacking
George L. Douglas
Oliver Durling

There's also Carrie Rogers- "on Knowlton's list to testify 'As to escape.' Testified before the grand jury but not at the trial."
On page 185 her name is crossed out right before the name of Mary Doolan, as a summons.