May 2008 Fall River Forum Gathering

Meet up, connect, make travel plans, and organize face-to-face get togethers in Fall River.

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Shelley
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Post by Shelley »

Am not yet out of the woods, Harry. While two have been disposed of by one way or another- the Death Star of 8 mm remains to be sound wave blasted this coming Wednesday by Obi Wan and his lithotripsy machine. I had laser surgery two days ago to pulverize the other nasty asteroid. Ah, old age- not for sissies. It's been a jello and chicken broth week.

It has not been all bad news though. I was heading up to FR to work last Friday, togged out in my new black velvet Lizzie ensemble when suddenly at exit 7, the dull pain in my side became a jagged buzz saw slicing me in half. I called LeeAnn and Dee, turned the car around and raced off to the emergency room at top speed, plowed through the ER door, not even thinking about the costume, and collapsed in a chair to the utter amazement of staff and patients loitering around. I will say I got VIP and immediate attention- even without the hatchet, and I got a few room visits from docs and nurses who had "heard about the nut who came in ER" . I was propped up in bed reading the Hatchet when my urologist came in - he never bothered asking how I was doing, but mostly wanted to scoop on Lizzie, Second Street, and the Hatchet. So- it was all good I guess.
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Harry
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Post by Harry »

Got my fingers crossed for you.

Had a lithotripsy done in 2001. Haven't had any serious problem since. It's good that you are having it done.
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Post by Susan »

I'm sorry to hear that, Shelley, I know your agony. Heres hoping you have a speedy recovery and are back up and around again soon. :grin:
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Post by Michael »

Shelley, once again, I am keeping you in my prayers regarding your medical situation. But I have to tell you that, despite your agony, you made me, Katrina, and her grandmother laugh with your last post. They were standing here when I read it and we were all cracking up. You found humor in a difficult situation, AND you made some other people laugh, as well. Get well soon, and we'll see you in a few weeks. :grin:
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Shelley
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Post by Shelley »

Well, the doc went me one better. He told me about his father-in-law (a portly old gent) who was attending a Halloween costume party when he was suddenly taken with what they thought was a heart attack. Turned out to be something less critical- but the thing which was so funny was that he was put in the ambulance in his costume and rushed into the ER dressed as a gold spray-painted buddha !
Even Lizzie could not top that one.
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Post by Kat »

I hope you get some rest and take care of yourself and feel better soon. You are always doing for others! Thank you tho, for the funny stories!
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Post by Nadzieja »

Hi evervbody!!! I wrote to Shelley (Mamma Ewe) last night with the news, so I'll tell everyone here. Ted & I won't be able to make it this time because due to circumstances beyond our control, I'm going to have foot surgery as soon as it can be scheduled. They forsee about 6-8 weeks of down time which means 6-8 weeks short term disability. This whole thing makes me want to hide in an Entemann's truck and fill up on raspberry danish. I just watched Shelley's new slide show and saw pics of everybody and really wish this wasn't happening because I looked forward so much to seeing all of you. I mean really what other group can have such a good time in a cemetary remembering people we never met, but who we feel we know very well. It is so good to talk to people who have the same interest and not only that, have so much fun doing it. I feel disappointed more than you will ever know. However, I'm going to get this over with and just wait until the next gathering. Until then I will be watching the forum. (as if I don't read it everyday as it is) I can't wait to see the pictures that will be taken, so everybody smile, have a great time, and graze, graze, graze!!!!!
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Shelley
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Post by Shelley »

Wow- it sure has been a tough Spring for some of us here, healthwise- and even worse around the globe with hurricanes and tornadoes and earth quakes! I was sure sorry to read about your foot problems this morning and I know we all send best wishes for a speedy recovery. The Flock won't be the same without you next week. We promise to take plenty of photos . If you can't avoid having surgery and recovery time- relax and let the Loved Ones wait upon you, catch up on reading, and have one or two little luxuries. We shall lift our glasses and hefty wedges of cheesecake in your honor!
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Stefani
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Post by Stefani »

I will be there! Can't wait!

Good luck Shel on your zapping on Wednesday!
Read Mondo Lizzie!
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Post by Kat »

Do you ever go by the name "Lorry?"
Anyway- good luck! Maybe they will call you from the slumber party!! :smile:

And Shelley, I see you gave good advice to relax and heal- I hope you do well Wednesday- and then also relax and heal!
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Post by Nadzieja »

Hi Kat, I never really had nickname, the only thing was my grandmother never called me by my American name, always the Polish one. It's very hard for me to sit still so I have alot of reading put aside, I'll finally be able to get back to the Preliminary hearing book. Also I've been ordering the back issues of The Hatchet which to me are almost like textbooks of who's who. It's hard for me not to just get up & go and it's difficult to face the fact that I have to have someone actually take care of me even if it's just until I can hobble around on crutches. Believe me my spirit will be with this group over the weekend because they are all very special people. So if the house seems full of spirits mine will be among them. I never met such a fun loving group.The last time we rode with Shelley & Cemetary Jeff--I'm surprised their ears didn't fall off we asked so many questions. The ladies ( I call them the twins) Barbara & Joanne wore the best hats. Most everybody that Sat morning had Sherlock Holmes hats & it was just so great. I have these memories of everybody and our interaction with them, I could go on & on. I hope the cheesecake is wonderful (which I'm sure it will be). I hope all my fellow NOME members kick up their heels, enjoy each others company and don't forget what we're really good at ------ graze, graze, graze
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Post by Kat »

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I'm practicing my new "Smilies." This is the group talking about Lizzie!

Again, good luck!
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Post by Nadzieja »

I love those smilies. Where did you find them?
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Post by Kat »

Harry hooked me up with Firefox Browser yesterday! They have SpellCheck on the Forum! And these Smilies are an "Add-On" feature! YAY! (My Safari kept quitting.)


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Harry
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Post by Harry »

Just a note to wish that you all have a GREAT time at the gathering. May the weather Gods be good to you.

Have fun! Image
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Post by FairhavenGuy »

The weather here is supposed to be good for the weekend. Tonight, Thursday at 6:20 p.m. it's a cool 64 degrees, but the clouds have broken and the sun's shining. Friday, Saturday, and Sunday are supposed to be sunny to partly cloudy and getting warmer each day, perhaps to 78 on Sunday.

Sandy Main, my guide for Sunday's Riverside Cemetery tour, has been informed there may be a few Mutton Eaters about. At the grave of Eli Bence we intend to give Shelley a couple of minutes to talk about him.
I've met Kat and Harry and Stef, oh my!
(And Diana, Richard, nbcatlover, Doug Parkhurst and Marilou, Shelley, "Cemetery" Jeff, Nadzieja, kfactor, Barbara, JoAnne, Michael, Katrina and my 255 character limit is up.)
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Shelley
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Post by Shelley »

The weather should be clearing for the weekend. The flock has chosen a Saturday in Newport to take in a late nineteenth century stately home, The Astors' Beechwood, which is the only mansion with costumed themed actors and a great script. I have been here many times and it is always a superb cast which never goes out of character.
http://www.astorsbeechwood.com/ Should be fun to see Bridget's point of view in the Upstairs/Downstairs scenario. Then we will visit the Farewell Street house where Lizzie sojourned in the summer of 1893 with the Covells (Sarah was a Remington of Fall River). Then there will be a peek at the site of Bridget's first employment when she got off the boat in New York- the Perry House hotel. She stayed with the Dennis Sullivans , then back to the house on Second Street. Tomorrow will be a busy day in Swansea and the annual Mutton Eater's Banquet. Sunday we are crashing the First Congregational Church to see what a service is like before heading out to do New Bedford and Fairhaven in style. After 4 trips to the hospital and 3 surgeries in three weeks-boy, am I ready for some FUN! :cheers:
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Post by Stefani »

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Muttoneaters Signage by JoJo and Barbara.

The jam-packed Muttoneaters weekend is still going on, in fact, they have a full day ahead of them in Fairhaven. I, on the other hand, had some prior commitments and finished up my visit with the group on Saturday night.

I am here to testify that the May 2008 meeting of the Second Street Irregulars Muttoneaters was a resounding success! Shelley has outdone herself and deserves the ram's share of the credit for the weekend coming off so well.

My story and photos are below---I know others will have better of both to share in the coming days so stay tuned! :cool:

*******************************************************

Friday started off with congregating at 92 Second Street and introductions. We then split up into three cahs, each containing a lamb doll we placed in a prominent place so we could see each other on the road!

We were off to Swansea Library where the gang was treated to a look into several of the Gardner photo albums that contain family images. Cameras were omnipresent on this trip and everyone, I think, got the perfect shot they were looking for.

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Then we drove to Luther's Museum where curator Carl Becker gave another magnificent tour of the building and the history of Swansea. Of course, no visit to Luther's would be complete without a looksee at the Borden portraits and furniture, and there were lots of ooohs and ahhhhs all around. Andrew and Sarah are perfectly displayed on the Borden's porch table, so we have a little Borden wall of artifacts all in one place at Luther's. Then it was off to the Borden farm.

Here is Carl Becker taking our picture as we stand in front of the farm house.
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We had a lovely lunch at Ma Raffa's in Somerset. It seemed like food was a big part of this get together ----as you can see by the last few photos.

The group had an afternoon of free time. Some went to Oak Grove, some took a walk from the Historical Society back to 92 Second Street----and I must say the weather this weekend was PERFECT!

At 7 we met at the Abbey Grille for a banquet, which was wonderfully decorated and managed by Shelley. She is such a fabulous host. Awards were presented, gourmet food was consumed, and fun was had by all.

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Actress Jill Dalton receiving the first ever Lammy Award for Best Acting.

After dinner we went back to the B&B to celebrate THREE birthdays! We chatted until late into the night, after being treated to a reading of Lizzie Borden Live by writer/actress Jill Dalton. We were simply mesmerized by her performance, and it was eerie to hear her speak in that house.

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Saturday, the group trouped off to Newport, and those who had adventures there will certainly share their experiences here soon. I heard that they had a unique visit to one particular Lizzie location!

We all met back at the B&B at 6:30 and began another evening of fun and experimenting! After a great pizza dinner, Shelley brought out her list of forum questions and proceeded to organize the group to test out some theories and time some movements from here to there. It was great fun and I will let Shelley report her findings when she can.

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Shelley organizing one of the tests! (you can see the courthouse construction in the background across the street from the B&B)

The desert (did I say this was all about food) was fantabulous---JoAnne and Barbara's lammy cheese cake was one for the books, with toppers created for the event. They crafted the main characters of the Borden story into lambs and dressed them to the hilt. It was amazing!

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We again chatted into the night and parted as fast friends. I must say the folks that trekked to this event are some of the best: JoAnne, Barbara Cook-Borden, Kristin Pepe, Len Rebello, Bob Shaw, Michael Shogi and his wife Katrina, Richard Behrens, Constantine, Michael Brimbau, Ellen, and Don Sikes.

If you have a chance to come to the next Muttoneaters event, YOU MUST!
Read Mondo Lizzie!
https://lizzieandrewborden.com/MondoLizzie/

Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.
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Post by FairhavenGuy »

About ten minutes ago Stef left Fairhaven bound for Fall River, in case anyone's interested. . .

A few other Mutton Eaters were heading across town for a bite to eat before returning to FR.

Stef, Shelley, Ellen, Constantine and, appropriately enough, Cemetery Jeff were at Riverside Cemetery for a tour. It was the most beautiful day of the year so far and a perfect afternoon for a stroll. The focus of the tour was not Lizzie-related, but a stop at the gravesite of Eli Bence is part of it.

It was nice to meet Ellen and Constantine, and to see the others again.

I must say I haven't met a forum member I didn't like!
I've met Kat and Harry and Stef, oh my!
(And Diana, Richard, nbcatlover, Doug Parkhurst and Marilou, Shelley, "Cemetery" Jeff, Nadzieja, kfactor, Barbara, JoAnne, Michael, Katrina and my 255 character limit is up.)
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Awesome time this weekend!

Post by Michael »

Katrina and I had a great time this weekend. Stefani summarized a lot of what happened, and I enjoyed the entire "Lizzie Getaway", but highlights for me included:

- The Second Street Irregulars - We really seem to have bonded and I think we were all more at ease with each other than last time. We were able to open up, be ourselves, laugh (a lot), and enjoy each others' company. I really enjoyed the fact that some people who were rather reserved in November really came out of their shell this time around.

- The Covell house - The look on Abraham's (the caretaker's) face when ten (or so) people came to visit was priceless. And, of course, taking photos of each other on the same porch where Lizzie stood for her most famous photograph was memorable, indeed.

- Luther's Corner - This little place is an absolute goldmine of Americana (and "Lizzieana", as well).

- Jill's reading and Kristin's presentation - Next time out, we should do more of this - and I volunteer for it.

- Everything else - I enjoyed every minute of the trip. I wouldn't have changed a thing.

Oh, yes, as official scribe, here are our ideas for next time.

- Lizzie Water
- Practice secret handshake.
- Device for Sheep Sound
- Aware for cramming most matter into smallest space
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Post by JoAnne »

Well, Kristin, Barbara and I returned home tired and all in one piece. I am sitting here thinking of all the wonderful times we had and how well we all meshed. I have to agree with Fairhaven Guy in that everyone I have met has been unique and interesting. Thank goodness ,we all seem to have a good sense of humor too!

Stefani, I want to tell you how much I enjoyed your company. You are a "Hoot". Thank you for the forum. I know I have met some friends for life!!!

Looking forward to our next adventure.
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Post by kfactor »

I second the sentiments in Stefani's, Michael's and JoAnne's posts! I enjoyed every minute of the weekend, and I felt like I was meeting up with old friends (young old friends, of course).

Stefani, I see you pronounced "cahs" like a real New Englander in your post above! It was a pleasure to meet you in person!

I hope to get some pictures from the weekend posted soon.

Kristin :grin:
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Post by Constantine »

I second the thoughts of all above.

What really made this weekend was the people, and that would have been so even without the rest of it -- which was great! I can't begin to tell you how much I liked all of you! (I still do, in fact!)

Aside from that little detail, I particularly enjoyed staying at the house again (Bridget's room this time), the Swansea Library and Luther's store, the cemeteries, the trip to Newport and the cheesecake! ("You can't top that," said Shelley. "Oh, I don't know," I answered. "I think the strawberries did just fine!") Oh, I almost forgot -- all the rest of it too! (I know that's what Michael said, but it's true.)

Afterwards, I spent Sunday night in the house (in the Jennings room this time). Though a devout skeptic, I attended a seance given by a visiting medium. This did not shake me in the slightest, as I told her quite politely.

Monday I went back to Newport, where I did three houses (The Breakers, Marble House and Belcourt Castle, which, to my delight and surprise, was still open at 6:00 p.m. for a champagne toast tour. We were met by the owner, the charming Mrs. Tinney, whom I had met years before. I heartily recommend a visit.). I stayed at the Jailhouse, an excellent and reasonable B&B near the bus station and had a great dinner at the same place we had eaten at on Saturday.

All told, this was one of the most enjoyable weekends of my life.
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Post by Nadzieja »

I am so happy that you all had such a great great time. The pictures are fabulous. Ted & I really missed out on some good times, unfortunately it couldn't be avoided. Can't wait to see you all next time. We'll have some catching up to do to see what all of yeww have been up to. The Astor estate in Newport must have been out of this world. I'm sure they will always remember the day the mutton eaters visited. :!: Until the next meeting keep the pictures & stories coming.
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Shelley
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Post by Shelley »

You and Ted were sorely missed, Lorraine-and I hope the surgery went well. I am doing well now that the bout of Snow White and the Seven Kidney Stones is over and got the thumbs up from the docs today.

Our official Mutton Eater Photographer and Videographer, Richard, will be checking in soon with a full report and film on some of the experiments we tried out. I get ideas from threads here and questions posed by forum members. We timed Bridget's run to Bowen's and Alice Russell's house, checked out last week's hot topic" Could or would Bridget have seen Andrew passing by the Kelly house on his way home", and could Bridget have heard Andrew coming up the side stairs, rattle the screen door, call out, etc. ? I will wait for Richard to give the official timing on Bridget's run. The other answers are interesting. Could Bridget hear Andrew's feet coming up the side steps? NO. Could Bridget hear Andrew rattle the screen door? NO. Could Bridget have heard Andrew call out? YES- but only if it had been loudly. The conditions were approximated as close as possible using testimony to arrange doors and placing Bridget up on a step ladder washing the sitting room window. Len Rebello was our consultant and Richard filmed the results. Could Bridget see Andrew pass by the Kelly house? YES, but only if she happened to look up at just the exact second he passed. We also do not know just where on Second Street that Andrew crossed over. Bridget was looking at the window and her wash rag and the split seconds where Andrew was in view were fleeting and "Bridget" a.k.a. JoAnne, never noticed Andrew (admirably played by Don, who approximated Andrew's gait, height and mobility). The results were very interesting and Richard will have much to show and add. This was a lot of fun, so please help us make a list of experiments for the future. No need to guess- we can really TRY some of this on the spot!
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Post by Richard »

I checked out the footage I took of the experiments and can definitely post something when I have some time to make a little movie out of it. I'm even thinking the "Bridget Run" or the "Maggie Run" could make an interesting Lizzie Mini.

I have to go travelling for work again this weekend and will be back mid-next week so I may not get around to this for another week or two. But it will be worth the wait! The Maggie Run Experiment was a hoot!
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Post by Nadzieja »

These experiments sound so interesting. I can't wait for the video. What was Bridget's run? Was that when not finding Dr. Bowen at home, she ran to Alice Russell's ? I can't wait for the details, of how long it actually took. After much testing, blood work, and consultation with the orthopedic surgeon I decided not to get surgery. I have another consult with my primary care tomorrow to see if there is an alternate direction I can start doing. What I thought they were going to be able to do with a 6 week recovery time they are not going to be able to do it because it would only cause more problems in the future. However what she said she had to actually do to fix my foot (in healthy people) there is only a 40% success rate. The recovery time can be anywhere from 3 to 4 months. If any infection followed it would be 6 weeks on IV antibiotics. On top of that she said that my foot looked like it would have a hard time to heal. Well the thought of losing my job, the 40% success rate and not healing was just too much for me to handle. So over the past weekend we found a store that sold the shoes that were recommended so we had to make a roadtrip to Framingham and also had to find some things that I need to wear while my feet are in the shoes. The thought of having to do all this running around (ha ha ha-no pun intended) on this particular weekend instead of seeing all my forum friends and fellow mutton eaters, eating cheescake and missing all the fun was just a reminder to me to enjoy everyday while you can and enjoy your friends everytime there is an opportunity. You guys were so blessed to be able to get together, the pictures just show how much fun you had while being together. I am so happy all of you had a great time because that means it will happen again. And God willing Ted & I will be with you. Keep those stories coming along with the results of all the experiments!!!!
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Post by Kat »

To revive the question as to whether Andrew's footsteps could be heard Now on the side steps, I was thinking about that picture of Ron Evans sitting on the steps banister. It shows the steps as being modified on one side, plus we know the awning had been added later. So those side steps might not be original- they seem to have gone thru re-building. Therefore, the experiments done recently as to steps being heard now or not being heard now become irrelevant. But it was a good idea! Oh well...


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Shelley
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Post by Shelley »

Well, of course it is hard to say if the west side of the two-way side stairs is original. They are wooden and may have been replaced. The canopy was added later. Donald and LeeAnn rebuilt the east side of the stairs so the configuation is like it was in 1892. They decided to leave the canopy because it helps keep the stairs drier in winter. If you know about "soundboards" in pulpits, these were canopies of wood built over a pulpit to channel the sound down and out to the congregation- an acoustic-enhancing device. If anything, leaving the canopy over the steps would help contain any sound under it. We arranged doors and windows as described in the testimonies, placed "Maggie" in the sitting room on a stepladder at the exact pane of glass she was washing at the time, and there was no sound of feet coming up those side steps- either leather-soled or rubber soled. To hear feet it is necessary to sit in the diningroom, with a window open (the easternmost window is best, and the person coming up the steps needs to walk with some conviction. We were all satisfied that Bridget would not have heard feet on the stairs. In the end, by the time she would have gotten off the ladder and gone through the kitchen, and back hall- Andrew most likely would have already turned and gone around to the front anyway.

Maggie also could not have heard a casual rattle of a door either. We tried various volumes of calling out "Lizzie", "Maggie", "Abby" at the side door, and it could be heard at Bridget's position only if the volume was louder than the average speaking voice.
I think Bridget would have said something on the stand if she had seen Andrew pass the Kelly house and if she had heard Andrew knock or call out to be let in. Richard's videotape of some of this should answer any doubts.
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Post by Kat »

Are you saying you know the westerly side steps to be completely original, and the criss-cross face, and the underneath as well? I'm confused- if any part of that structure were rebuilt at any time, a current experiment doesn't seem to be valid. Doesn't that make sense?
I think it is great that different experiments are being done and applaud the efforts completely. But renovations would change things, I think- wouldn't they?

Also, some of the windows have been replaced by Ron Evans. I remember Bill Pavao got one and so did Bernie Sullivan- the guest room window and Lizzie's bedroom window. That might change what was heard or not heard. And which window is Bridget washing btw? :wink:
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Post by Nadzieja »

The only thing I thought of concerning the stair experiment was that would it be nosier on the street today because of cars, or was it just as loud with the street traffic back then? It seems that this street always was very busy. I don't have a street map, but how close is Main St. Was Main St. back then one of the busiest streets and was Second St. close to it so people to avoid crowds would go on Second instead of Main?
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Post by Shelley »

Lots of questions. No. I do not know positively that the west side is all-original. In fact I would tend to doubt it-wood from 1845 would be much more worn on the treads in the middle portion. Wooden steps are wooden steps. I believe the experiment is valid though. The test was to ascertain if someone could be heard from the sitting room on the far side (south side) going up the steps on the north side of the house. The sound of feet coming up the steps with the diningroom windows closed and a person of average weight in leather-soled shoes, walking normally up the steps (not stomping), cannot be heard where Bridget was standing at the time Andrew arrived. We've repeated this many times, and always obtained the identical results. Yes, the diningroom windows are replaced as well as the second floor. still, a closed window with one pane thickness of glass (not double-glazed or insulated or with storm windows) should not prove much if any different from the original 1892 window of like configuration. I agree, renovations, if radically different from the original would be a factor. This is not the case in this instance.

If you want to hear anyone on those side steps, you have to sit in the easternmost diningroom window, preferably with the window open. Then you might hear a shuffling or the scraping sound of leather on wooden treads. This particular scenario has been tried out at various times of day and night when the street noise on Second Street has been noisy to moderate to loud to nearly silent. Which window was Bridget washing? Well naturally I would consult Rebello on that- the westermost sitting room window, upper right quadrant.

Main St. is only one street west of the house, and I would bet in 1892 Second Street was pretty noisy around lunch time considering the Boston Express, Hall's Livery, 2 doctors' offices and Wade's store were all very close the house. Horse and carriage noise must have been a constant.

The really great thing about having the crime scene intact is that we don't have to surmise or guess or imagine- it is possible to get an answer to many of these pressing questions without too much difficulty. :grin:

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Kat
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Post by Kat »

And the ice cream man was going by as well.

Have you tried to duplicate what Lizzie might have heard from around near the barn entrance towards the house that might be a scraping sound, or some such (groan, even), from the area of the house, with late morning outside noise going on?

BTW: I meant to ask- how much noise was there from the new construction of the courthouse during experiments recently?
Yes I do ask a lot of questions. :smile:
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Post by Shelley »

There was no noise from construction of the courthouse- it was tried several times, at different times of day, on weekends before construction began, or after the courthouse was begun but on Sundays or after work hours. But in the end, hearing Andrew's footsteps on the side steps would not have altered the chain of events or final outcome. And I would bet he tried the door, went back down the steps again and headed around front, all before Bridget could have scuttled through the diningroom and gotten to the side door to let him in anyway.

First, I don't believe Lizzie was ever in the barn, nor heard a blessed thing. I think she needed a reason for coming back in and happening upon the aftermath. The scraping sound sure suggested to me the screen door closing so "the killer" could make a get away. The groan being heard allows Lizzie to put herself outside listening to it, suggesting Andrew's last gasp from the inside attack. She is well clear of it all by suggesting these two noises.
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Post by Nadzieja »

Shelley, what's the purpose of that latch handle? The oldest window I've seen had a pulley wheel inside the window with a rope. I remember once having a rope break & the window would not stay open.
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Post by Shelley »

Yes, I remember those wheels and ropes. I will take a closer look at the window this week. When I want to open the window (it does not have screens by the way , nor tracks) I pinch that lever thing up and raise the window- then I have to prop a log under it to hold the bottom half up up.
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Post by Kat »

Shelley @ Sun Jul 06, 2008 6:17 pm wrote:There was no noise from construction of the courthouse- it was tried several times, at different times of day, on weekends before construction began, or after the courthouse was begun but on Sundays or after work hours. But in the end, hearing Andrew's footsteps on the side steps would not have altered the chain of events or final outcome. And I would bet he tried the door, went back down the steps again and headed around front, all before Bridget could have scuttled through the diningroom and gotten to the side door to let him in anyway.

First, I don't believe Lizzie was ever in the barn, nor heard a blessed thing. I think she needed a reason for coming back in and happening upon the aftermath. The scraping sound sure suggested to me the screen door closing so "the killer" could make a get away. The groan being heard allows Lizzie to put herself outside listening to it, suggesting Andrew's last gasp from the inside attack. She is well clear of it all by suggesting these two noises.
I thank you for your answer, but I'm not quite getting it...
Are you saying you tried experiments especially when there would be no construction noise? I'm confused.
Also, if your mind is firm that Lizzie was not in the barn nor heard a groan then no experiments were done? I do think you are being fair in your attempts, right?

Also, if Lizzie did hear something then she was very close to the house right? And if very close she would see who left/escaped. It has put her so close to the steps upon Andrew's death that it is amazing she and the culprit did not bump into each other. It's not "well clear" of anything- I thought that's why she gave up the story of hearing something. At least she seems to give up on that line of story.

Also, along the lines of your mind made up- I can't myself say that Andrew not getting in the side door, nor who heard what at the side door and when would or would not "alter the chain of events."

Please believe me- I am not nit-picking here. I just am not in agreement- and it's only that sometimes my opinions vary from your own. I know you appreciate a good discussion, as we've talked about that! :smile:
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Post by Shelley »

1. Yes, we tried the noise on the steps experiments at several times of day, and always when no construction noise would hamper the results. Actually some of these little experiments have been tried years ago, when the house first opened by the original Second St. Irregulars. Naturally it is easier now that we have unlimited access to #92.

2. In my mind and in my opinion, yes, I have doubts she was ever in the barn- HOWEVER, that being said, we have still tried to recreate the groan scenario. With the sitting room door to the kitchen closed and the window shut downstairs, it is not possible to hear a groan from the side steps, back yard, approach to the steps or outside the house on the North side. It is pretty obvious from the wounds that Andrew was plenty DEAD when the killer finished chopping and "fled"- for Lizzie to have heard a thing, she must have been in the house or back hall to hear any sort of final gasp or groan, which means the killer must have been either finishing up the attack or in the process of fleeing. It is no wonder she quickly forgot about "the groan". She would have smacked right into the assailant.

3. What I mean by "well clear"- is that by putting herself up in the hayloft and outside the house, she was clear of homicide #2. To say she was "outside" and "heard a groan" puts her well clear of being INSIDE the house while the killing was in progress or had just finished. She is "in the clear" by being outside while the groan is inside. Later I believe she abandoned this because it would lead to the speculation that she ought to have seen the exit of the murderer out the side door if she was close enough to hear a groan.

4. The chain of events would not have been altered one iota by which door Andrew entered. He would have been killed all the same. It is a minor point of relevancy. We do not know positively that he DID try the side door, we have only Mrs. Kelly's statement about seeing him round the northwest corner and go up to his front door. We are assuming (and probably rightly) that he ever made a side door attempt. Point is, he came home and had to go inside, either door would gain him entry and what occured after was his murder-what door he entered by would not have saved his life. If the side door had not been locked by Bridget and he had entered that way, would he not have done the same actions, -going upstairs, putting on his sweater, etc.?Bridget would have been washing the sitting room window, just the same. I doubt Lizzie was in the kitchen, I believe Bridget's original testimony that Lizzie was upstairs when Andrew came inside. The end result will be the same. Andrew will get killed on the sofa after Bridget has gone upstairs.

Although I have strong opinions about the murders, based on a lot of time spent studying the scenario and house, when we try to check on possibilities, it is not with the assumption that Lizzie is GUILTY- but rather it is trying to reproduce the details as nearly as possible to confirm or refute testimony given or possibilities put forth. Anyone can repeat the same procedure about the footsteps on the steps or the groan from the yard when you visit the house. A great deal of the "grey area" of maybe, could have, might have, perhaps- can be tested at the scene, thus removing any doubt.
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Post by Kat »

Oh good. Since you have enumerated several of my prior points I've made- like Mrs. Dr. Kelly being the only one who noticed Andrew coming from the side of the house- like the groan being important in that if Lizzie heard it she was way too close to the crime scene and had to step back away from that- that you did make an effort (for whatever reason) to not have construction noise during your experiments- then we agree and are on the same page. Great! Thanks!

I do think then we can agree to disageree about which door Andrew used affecting the outcome in the cae. It may not have saved his life but then again it may have, if it foiled some plot to get him to have to come in the front. Also, since this crime was such a *lucky break* for someone- that things happened the way they did somewhat due to blind luck for the murderer to go free, then any change in the plot or dynamic, could very well have changed the ultimate outcome- being that someone might have been caught after all. I think any change in the way things happned might have affected the result- bottom line is I'm not sure- I'm open to that possibility.
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Post by Shelley »

Well, sure, in many cases, altering one small detail can make a difference.
You go down a different street by chance to work one day, and find out later there was a horrible accident on your usual route-it might have been YOU. A maniac is hiding in an alley ready to spring out and kill the first person who walks by, you decided to cross the street and look at something in the window before you get to that alley- yes, you have been spared. You choose to take the stairs one day instead of the elevator and the elevator crashes- you had a close call. Bridget Sullivan locks the screen door when she comes in from washing the windows, so Andrew Borden has to come in the front door. There is maybe a delay of a minute as he walks to to the front door, if you believe he ever tried the side door in the first place. He has put himself in the venue of the killer, no matter how he gets into the house. The killer is most likely IN the house already after having killed Mrs. Borden. Andrew is not going to avoid being killed by walking in the front door. The killer might be in the cellar or hiding somewhere or might be right in front of Mr. Borden all along. :smile: The key here is waiting for an opportunity alone with Andrew. Lizzie must go outside and Bridget upstairs, if you believe both women are innocent and the killer has no desire or plan to kill either Lizzie or Bridget. If you are to believe Lizzie, Andrew IS the prime target all along, and the intended victim of "the enemy" Lizzie freely discusses with Alice and the police.

The moment of action here hinges on Bridget's going upstairs out of sight and hearing of the killing. Bridget would have gone upstairs regardless of which door Andrew used to get in the house. It is interesting to speculate what would have happened had Bridget NOT gone upstairs. Might Andrew have been spared, or would Bridget have to have been killed too? I suspect Bridget would have put up quite a fight, unlike the old folks. Yes, life and death can hang on a minor detail, but I do not think in this case it was the entry door.
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