Travel Channel

Discover or post articles and transcripts about Lizzie Borden.

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BOBO
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Travel Channel

Post by BOBO »

The Travel Channel is set to release the Mary Grein letters in Nov. This case will finally be closed.
Last edited by BOBO on Mon Feb 02, 2015 7:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Curryong »

Well, BOBO, this is very exciting news indeed. I hope it's shown in Australia, it will be very interesting. Have you any little titbits on the case you could share with us while we're waiting? I don't know if I can wait until November!
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Post by Aamartin »

wow is right! I can't wait! Curry-- if nothing else, I will record it and find a way to get it to you in digital format, even if we have to resort to snail mail!
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Post by MysteryReader »

Looking forward to it.

Curry and Anthony, he gave us tidbits from these letters before. :-D
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Post by Curryong »

Thank you very much Anthony, you're very kind. I do have cable, but the Travel Channel shows different shows to the one in the US.

Mystery, yes I know BOBO gave us some very juicy snippets before, but he has other letters he hasn't sold I'm sure, that would be of interest, talking about life in the Borden house. Please BOBO, come back to us and post them.
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Post by MysteryReader »

Curry- hubby said to look on the Travel channel's website and you probably can catch it then. :-D
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Re: Travrl Channel

Post by Curryong »

Thankyou, Mystery. We have a few months to wait, anyway!
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Post by twinsrwe »

It will be interesting to see just how The Travel Channel presents the Mary Grein letters. Depending on how these letters are interpreted and presented will determined if the case is closed or not. We'll see.
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
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Post by MysteryReader »

It will be interesting to watch. The letters are supposed to explain the "Why" of the murders but not necessarily, the who.
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Re: Travrl Channel

Post by BOBO »

twinsrwe wrote:It will be interesting to see just how The Travel Channel presents the Mary Grein letters. Depending on how these letters are interpreted and presented will determined if the case is closed or not. We'll see.
The Travel Channel has put the "Was Marilyn Monroe Murdered" show on first, as it was in the works.
The Mary Grein letters total 161. Among these, 107 mention the Bordens by name. 92 go into explicit detail concerning life at the Bordens. 36 contain "EXPLICIT" details of sexual abuse at the Borden home.

The reason page 2 of the "leave now" letter was hidden was because it contains reference to sexual abuse to Mary Grein by her father.

There is two letters from Sarah Welch, besides the "leave now" letter, that states "I beg you, to go to authorities", is asked.

There is one from Mary Grein, that was returned, to Nancy Welch, for "no known person", in New Bedford, that reads, in part, "I should have listened to sarah". I can find no relation to Sarah Welch to Nancy Welch.

Folks, can I say this without fear of being hauled back into court. There will be no "interpreting" the letters. Names are named, and "raped" means raped.
BTW, the 84 yr. old man, from the Grein family, will be interviewed.

OFF HAND... I recently sold the leather satchel, that contained the letters on e-bay, for $750 dollars.
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Post by MysteryReader »

Wow.. good for you, Tim! I look forward to watching the show. A side note- yes, I do believe Marilyn Monroe was murdered but I can't figure out the why. I was doing some studying on it a few weeks back.

I feel for Lizzie and Emma...
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Re: Travrl Channel

Post by BOBO »

BOBO wrote:
twinsrwe wrote:It will be interesting to see just how The Travel Channel presents the Mary Grein letters. Depending on how these letters are interpreted and presented will determined if the case is closed or not. We'll see.
The Travel Channel has put the "Was Marilyn Monroe Murdered" show on first, as it was in the works.
The Mary Grein letters total 161. Among these, 107 mention the Bordens by name. 92 go into explicit detail concerning life at the Bordens. 36 contain "EXPLICIT" details of sexual abuse at the Borden home.

The reason page 2 of the "leave now" letter was hidden was because it contains reference to sexual abuse to Mary Grein by her father.

There is two letters from Sarah Welch, besides the "leave now" letter, that states "I beg you, to go to authorities", is asked.

There is one from Mary Grein, that was returned, to Nancy Welch, for "no known person", in New Bedford, that reads, in part, "I should have listened to sarah". I can find no relation to Sarah Welch to Nancy Welch.

Folks, can I say this without fear of being hauled back into court. There will be no "interpreting" the letters. Names are named, and "raped" means raped.
BTW, the 84 yr. old man, from the Grein family, will be interviewed.

OFF HAND... I recently sold the leather satchel, that contained the letters on e-bay, for $750 dollars.
The 84 yr. old descendant (Mr. DeRossett) passed away today. He was a true friend and helped me solve as to the "why" of this case after 45 yrs. of research. If he had not come forth with the Mary Grein letters this case may have never been solved as to the "why". I have lost a dear friend, and thanks to him this case is drawing to a close.

Upon his death, I am at liberty to say this. Mary Grein was Mr. Derossetts 5x great aunt on her husbands side. I have been honored to be in his home on numerous occasions and have spent countless hours speaking to him on this subject.

His thoughts were this: Mary Grein killed both the Bordens, with Lizzies help. Mary Grein lived a short 5 blocks from the Borden home in 1892. She had a baby aborted, from Andrew, by Dr. Bowen. Her and Sarah Welch were "like sisters" , who became impregnated by Andrew, who gave birth to a baby girl named Claudia Ann. I have a copy of this childs birth certificate with the father listed as "unknown".

There is one letter from Bridget Sullivan to Mary Grein, dated May 2, 1890, that states "Why does Miss Borden let him do this to us."

There was no doubt in Mr. Derossetts mind that sexual abuse went on in that house.

But stand by... several other names are listed in Mary Greins letters as to sexual abuse there... Bowen, Morse, Dowen, Hillard, AND a lady named ABBY!!
Tell the truth, then you don't have to remember anything.... Mark Twain
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MysteryReader wrote:... A side note- yes, I do believe Marilyn Monroe was murdered but I can't figure out the why. I was doing some studying on it a few weeks back. ...
Over the years, since Marilyn's death, I have read many books about the circumstances of her death. She was having an affair with both Bobby Kennedy and JFK. Peter Lawford allowed Bobby and Marilyn to use his house in order to have a place to carry on their affair. Marilyn had a red diary in which she wrote about her affairs with the Kennedy brothers along with several Kennedy secrets. The day before her death, Bobby went to see Marilyn, and told her that their relationship was over. She in turn threatened to call a press conference and expose all that she knew. Because of this threat, she had to be silenced.

Here is some of the information that I have read over the years:

August 4, 1962: Witnesses track the nightime movements of powerful people in and around Marilyn Monroe's home at 12305 Fifth Helena Dr Brentwood, CA, the night of her death.

Robert F. Kennedy, Attorney General at the time, was seen by scores of residents at the Monroe home with his brother-in-law, actor, Peter Lawford.

Sometime before midnight a dark Mercedes sped east on Olympic Boulevard in Beverly Hills. Estimating the car to be driving in excess of 55 miles per hour, Beverly Hills police officer Lynn Franklin gave chase. In the car was, Bobby Kennedy, Peter Lawford, and Marilyn Monroe's psychiatrist, Ralph Greenson.

The body of Marilyn Monroe was discovered well before midnight, yet the call to the police about her death didn't occur until 3:30am.

Deborah Gould, ex-wife of Peter Lawford, says the delay was to get Bobby out of town. He had a helicopter chartered that night back to San Francisco.

Allegedly Peter Lawford went to Marilyn's house to clean up and do what he could before the press arrived.

Meanwhile, in Los Angeles, reporter Joe Hyams learned that Lawford's neighbors were upset that a helicopter had touched down on the Santa Monica shore behind the Lawford's residence in the early hours of Sunday morning, August 5, blowing sand into their swimming pools.



See more at: http://tinyurl.com/qb3l2cb

So, for years, I have believed that she was murdered.

:shock:
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
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BOBO wrote:
twinsrwe wrote:It will be interesting to see just how The Travel Channel presents the Mary Grein letters. Depending on how these letters are interpreted and presented will determined if the case is closed or not. We'll see.
The Travel Channel has put the "Was Marilyn Monroe Murdered" show on first, as it was in the works.
The Mary Grein letters total 161. Among these, 107 mention the Bordens by name. 92 go into explicit detail concerning life at the Bordens. 36 contain "EXPLICIT" details of sexual abuse at the Borden home.

The reason page 2 of the "leave now" letter was hidden was because it contains reference to sexual abuse to Mary Grein by her father.

There is two letters from Sarah Welch, besides the "leave now" letter, that states "I beg you, to go to authorities", is asked.

There is one from Mary Grein, that was returned, to Nancy Welch, for "no known person", in New Bedford, that reads, in part, "I should have listened to sarah". I can find no relation to Sarah Welch to Nancy Welch.

Folks, can I say this without fear of being hauled back into court. There will be no "interpreting" the letters. Names are named, and "raped" means raped.
BTW, the 84 yr. old man, from the Grein family, will be interviewed.

OFF HAND... I recently sold the leather satchel, that contained the letters on e-bay, for $750 dollars.
Tim, all that I meant by my statement about how the letters will be 'interpreted' and presented, is that many times documentaries do not always stick with the known facts. I certainly meant no disrespect toward you or your beliefs. I sincerely hope the Travel Channel does present these letters using only the contents within them.
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
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BOBO wrote:The 84 yr. old descendant (Mr. DeRossett) passed away today. He was a true friend and helped me solve as to the "why" of this case after 45 yrs. of research. If he had not come forth with the Mary Grein letters this case may have never been solved as to the "why". I have lost a dear friend, and thanks to him this case is drawing to a close.

Upon his death, I am at liberty to say this. Mary Grein was Mr. Derossetts 5x great aunt on her husbands side. I have been honored to be in his home on numerous occasions and have spent countless hours speaking to him on this subject.

His thoughts were this: Mary Grein killed both the Bordens, with Lizzies help. Mary Grein lived a short 5 blocks from the Borden home in 1892. She had a baby aborted, from Andrew, by Dr. Bowen. Her and Sarah Welch were "like sisters" , who became impregnated by Andrew, who gave birth to a baby girl named Claudia Ann. I have a copy of this childs birth certificate with the father listed as "unknown".

There is one letter from Bridget Sullivan to Mary Grein, dated May 2, 1890, that states "Why does Miss Borden let him do this to us."

There was no doubt in Mr. Derossetts mind that sexual abuse went on in that house.

But stand by... several other names are listed in Mary Greins letters as to sexual abuse there... Bowen, Morse, Dowen, Hillard, AND a lady named ABBY!!
I am sorry to hear that Mr. DeRossett passed away. :sad:

Thank you for the above information; these letters make a lot more sense now. I am looking forward to seeing the Travel Channel documentary.
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
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Re: Travrl Channel

Post by Curryong »

Yes, thanks, BOBO, interesting times ahead for everyone interested in the Borden case. I too am very sorry about the loss of your friend, Mr DeRossett. I am sure you've many happy memories of him and of talking over the case together.

PS Is Dowen a typo for Dolan in your post, Tim, or is it another name?
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Post by MysteryReader »

Tim,

I'm sorry to hear of Mr. DeRossett's passing. Holy cow, though!! This gets weirder by the moment. Thank you for sharing with us.
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twinsrwe wrote:
MysteryReader wrote:... A side note- yes, I do believe Marilyn Monroe was murdered but I can't figure out the why. I was doing some studying on it a few weeks back. ...
O The day before her death, Bobby went to see Marilyn, and told her that their relationship was over. She in turn threatened to call a press conference and expose all that she knew. Because of this threat, she had to be silenced.
:shock:

Yes, I remember reading that recently (as well as the information you gave) but here's the thing- I don't believe she really, really knew much and would have to be silenced. Rumor had it that the mobs knew more information regarding the Kennedys than anyone. Hmm, now I'll have to go read some more books on the Kennedy brothers and Marilyn.
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BOBO wrote: There is one letter from Bridget Sullivan to Mary Grein, dated May 2, 1890, that states "Why does Miss Borden let him do this to us."
BOBO, who was Bridget referring to, Emma or Lizzie? Furthermore, how could either one of them have stopped him?
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
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Re: Travrl Channel

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Curryong wrote:Yes, thanks, BOBO, interesting times ahead for everyone interested in the Borden case. I too am very sorry about the loss of your friend, Mr DeRossett. I am sure you've many happy memories of him and of talking over the case together.

PS Is Dowen a typo for Dolan in your post, Tim, or is it another name?
The name is "Dowen"... I don't know if this is misspelling or not. Claudia Ann was born 6-20-1890.
The Travel Channel did get in a short interview with Mr. Derossett before he died, but it is nowhere as deep as they wanted to present. I have hours of him and I on tape. I will be happy to share, here on the forum.

BTW, while he believed Mary did the murders, he said he was never sure if it was Mary, Lizzie, or Bridgett, or a combination, that did the murders.

There is one letter from a Mrs. Tifton to Mary dated July 20, 1890, thanking her for "the card", stating "Maggie's baby is beautiful". It ends with "but I know he will never claim her". Another is from an Officer Bacon, that thanks Mary for the "visit to the misses, so much, I just wish I could have done more".
There is a reason Mary Grein saved these letters!! I fully believe that it was because if she was ever charged with the murders, she would have proof of the reason WHY.

Yesterday, we laid Dallas Derossett down with full military honors. While I have lost a dear friend, I believe that I have had the privilege of knowing a man that saw fit to end my 45 yrs. of solving the Borden case. I wish I could say that after 45 yrs. that I was happy, but as of today I am sad. Tim
Tell the truth, then you don't have to remember anything.... Mark Twain
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MysteryReader wrote:
twinsrwe wrote:
MysteryReader wrote:... A side note- yes, I do believe Marilyn Monroe was murdered but I can't figure out the why. I was doing some studying on it a few weeks back. ...
O The day before her death, Bobby went to see Marilyn, and told her that their relationship was over. She in turn threatened to call a press conference and expose all that she knew. Because of this threat, she had to be silenced.
:shock:

Yes, I remember reading that recently (as well as the information you gave) but here's the thing- I don't believe she really, really knew much and would have to be silenced. Rumor had it that the mobs knew more information regarding the Kennedys than anyone. Hmm, now I'll have to go read some more books on the Kennedy brothers and Marilyn.
I don’t believe Marilyn really knew a lot of ‘dirt’ on the Kennedy boys either. However, apparently Bobby Kennedy and Peter Lawford thought she did, since they rummaged through the house in search of her little red diary.
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
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I don't think she did either. I did put a couple of books on hold at the library to study again. She was a very smart lady but I don't think the Kennedy brothers would have been dumb enough to 'kiss and tell' anything important. I think that her threat was mainly to get back at Bobby.
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I agree, Mystery. :grin:
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
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Re: Travrl Channel

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Only one letter from Hiram Harrington to Mary Welch, dated Jan. 23, 1897. It reads, "Trust this finds you well. The Misses sends her regards. I feel you have more to tell if only you would speak. I know Lizzie took part and Bridget, maggie took care of things. The feelings between I had has faded, as I wish you would speak. Andrew knew better as he had money but let us let things go. Will you be at the picnic Saturday? Regards Hiram."

On the back of this one page letter, is written, in Marys hand writing, "Dr. Dowlan I love him."
Tell the truth, then you don't have to remember anything.... Mark Twain
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Post by MysteryReader »

Very interesting. Who was Dr. Dowlan? Is it supposed to be Dr. Dolan?
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BOBO wrote:Only one letter from Hiram Harrington to Mary Welch, dated Jan. 23, 1897. It reads, "Trust this finds you well. The Misses sends her regards. I feel you have more to tell if only you would speak. I know Lizzie took part and Bridget, maggie took care of things. The feelings between I had has faded, as I wish you would speak. Andrew knew better as he had money but let us let things go. Will you be at the picnic Saturday? Regards Hiram."

On the back of this one page letter, is written, in Marys hand writing, "Dr. Dowlan I love him."
Who is Mary Welch and Dr. Dowlan? :scratch: Did you mean Sarah Welch and Dr. Dolan?
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
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Could Mary Welch be a sister or Sarah Welch? And I'm not clear on the Dowlan either.
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Re: Travrl Channel

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BOBO wrote:Only one letter from Hiram Harrington to Mary Welch, dated Jan. 23, 1897. It reads, "Trust this finds you well. The Misses sends her regards. I feel you have more to tell if only you would speak. I know Lizzie took part and Bridget, maggie took care of things. The feelings between I had has faded, as I wish you would speak. Andrew knew better as he had money but let us let things go. Will you be at the picnic Saturday? Regards Hiram."

On the back of this one page letter, is written, in Marys hand writing, "Dr. Dowlan I love him."
Of course this was sent to Mary Grein. I am in the process of transcribing over 1000 hours of conversation with Mr. DeRossett. An FBI expert, in Quantico Va. is examining the letters and will give an opinion on the "state" of the letters.

This has been a LONGGGGGG 45 yrs. Bear with me.
Tell the truth, then you don't have to remember anything.... Mark Twain
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Post by Curryong »

Of course we'll bear with you, BOBO. We know this has been a long, long road for you! For myself, I think it's nteresting that Hiram Harrington, (who loathed Lizzie), still kept in touch with Mary, who seems to have had a huge crush on old Bowen, or is it Dolan!

I wish Hiram's letter-writing skills were a bit better, however. What does Hiram mean by 'the feelings between I had has faded'? Does he mean the feelings between himself and Mary, I wonder? Did he miss out an 'us' in that sentence? Who knows! It's very interesting, anyway. Thank you, BOBO!
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Re: Travel Channel

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Oh what a breaking news! Thank you BOBO.
"Mr. Morse, when you were told for the THIRD time that Abby and Andrew had been killed, why did you pronounce a "WHAT" to Mrs. Churchill? Why?"
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Re: Travel Channel

Post by Franz »

BOBO, a question: according to the letters of Mary Grein and to Mr. DeRossett, the victims of sexual abuse were only the servants, not the Borden sisters? Do I understand well?
"Mr. Morse, when you were told for the THIRD time that Abby and Andrew had been killed, why did you pronounce a "WHAT" to Mrs. Churchill? Why?"
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Re: Travel Channel

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Folks this has been a longggg process, but it is coming together. The letters have had to be authenticated , and they have been, by the FBI. They have had to be sorted by date, month, year etc. and as to sender and sent. I work 46 wks. out of the year on the road (www.funniestman.com). I AM NOT JAMES GREGORY!!! I open his shows.

Mr. DeRossett passing did not help. The Travel Channel is going to produce a blockbuster show on the letters. This will be "mind blowing"!

As for me, I am looking for a writer to write a book on the letters... I think a forum member here knows who I have in mind. Misty, I'll be in touch. Tim
Tell the truth, then you don't have to remember anything.... Mark Twain
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I'm glad the FBI were able to authenticated. You are busy! Hopefully, things will calm down and I'm ready when you are. I've actually gotten into genealogy so I'm excited. Drop a line.
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Re: Travel Channel

Post by Franz »

Assuming that Mary Grein was victim of sexual abuse of Andrew and therefore planned the double murder (and herself the executive killer). I wonder: was Lizzie as well victim? If not, it's for me very difficult to imagine that Lizzie could have accepted to help Mary Grein to kill her own father (and her stepmother).
"Mr. Morse, when you were told for the THIRD time that Abby and Andrew had been killed, why did you pronounce a "WHAT" to Mrs. Churchill? Why?"
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Post by Franz »

Will the Travel Channel documentary be one day available in a public space, like youtube?
"Mr. Morse, when you were told for the THIRD time that Abby and Andrew had been killed, why did you pronounce a "WHAT" to Mrs. Churchill? Why?"
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Re: Travel Channel

Post by MysteryReader »

Franz wrote:Assuming that Mary Grein was victim of sexual abuse of Andrew and therefore planned the double murder (and herself the executive killer). I wonder: was Lizzie as well victim? If not, it's for me very difficult to imagine that Lizzie could have accepted to help Mary Grein to kill her own father (and her stepmother).

Franz,

From what I can gather and understand, Mary Grein was a victim and so was another house maid. I would think that Lizzie and perhaps, Emma, at one time were victims too. The only question I have is why did they wait so long. There is a letter stating that Andrew was the father of one of the maid's baby and that perhaps, he forced another to have an abortion.
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Re: Travel Channel

Post by MysteryReader »

Franz wrote:Will the Travel Channel documentary be one day available in a public space, like youtube?
I'm sure it'll be on the Travel Channel's website...
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Re: Travel Channel

Post by Franz »

MysteryReader wrote:...
Franz,

...The only question I have is why did they wait so long...
Always within this hypothesis, it is possible that before Mary Grein decided finally to kill Andrew and Abby, she, and probably other(s), tried to obtain from Andrew moral recognition of the child (or children?) and economic aid, but they failed. Andrew refused to give nothing, nothing, nothing at all. And in the end, his victim(s) lost patience and hope... And, then, in that hot August day, she (or they) acted to revenge....overkilling, etc.
Last edited by Franz on Sun Feb 15, 2015 6:19 pm, edited 3 times in total.
"Mr. Morse, when you were told for the THIRD time that Abby and Andrew had been killed, why did you pronounce a "WHAT" to Mrs. Churchill? Why?"
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Re: Travel Channel

Post by Franz »

MysteryReader wrote:
Franz wrote:Will the Travel Channel documentary be one day available in a public space, like youtube?
I'm sure it'll be on the Travel Channel's website...
thanks. I will visit it.
"Mr. Morse, when you were told for the THIRD time that Abby and Andrew had been killed, why did you pronounce a "WHAT" to Mrs. Churchill? Why?"
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Re: Travel Channel

Post by Nadzieja »

Ok, I just stumbled on to this topic. Forgive my ignorance but who is Mary Grein? This is the first time I've heard this name. I've read alot on the Borden case and never have come across this name. Please be so kind as to bring me up to speed.
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Re: Travel Channel

Post by MysteryReader »

Nadzieja wrote:Ok, I just stumbled on to this topic. Forgive my ignorance but who is Mary Grein? This is the first time I've heard this name. I've read alot on the Borden case and never have come across this name. Please be so kind as to bring me up to speed.

Mary Grein was a former house maid (like Bridget) and there are letters that BOBO has bought from the Grein family. Just look for BOBO's posts on them. Apparently, Andrew liked women a little too much and either Mary or Sarah (another house maid) got pregnant by him. One had a baby and the other, an abortion at Andrew's insistence.
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Re: Travel Channel

Post by mbhenty »

This is all very exciting and revealing if in fact accurate and confirmed.

Can you post one of the letters, throw us a bone, a tease, reinforce the narrative.

A photo copy of an authentic letter would be electrifying!

I'm sure everyone here would be tremendously excited.

:study:
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Re: Travel Channel

Post by Franz »

mbhenty wrote:This is all very exciting and revealing if in fact accurate and confirmed.

Can you post one of the letters, throw us a bone, a tease, reinforce the narrative.

A photo copy of an authentic letter would be electrifying!

I'm sure everyone here would be tremendously excited.

:study:
Yes, absolutely exciting. A totally new light into the Borden case. :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:
"Mr. Morse, when you were told for the THIRD time that Abby and Andrew had been killed, why did you pronounce a "WHAT" to Mrs. Churchill? Why?"
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Re: Travel Channel

Post by mbhenty »

Well Franz, research, study, scrutiny, and time will tell.
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Re: Travel Channel

Post by Franz »

mbhenty wrote:Well Franz, research, study, scrutiny, and time will tell.
Yes, keep calm and study the Borden case. :smile:
"Mr. Morse, when you were told for the THIRD time that Abby and Andrew had been killed, why did you pronounce a "WHAT" to Mrs. Churchill? Why?"
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Re: Travel Channel

Post by MysteryReader »

mbhenty wrote:Well Franz, research, study, scrutiny, and time will tell.

They have all been authenticated by the FBI. :grin:
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Re: Travel Channel

Post by mbhenty »

Yes Mystery:

That is something I don't understand.

The Federal Bureau of Investigation is a Government Crime agency. They don't authenticate historical documents. They're a law enforcement agency not a conservators or appraisers. He must of meant something else. I doubt very much that the FBI is going to investigate such a document for a private citizen, unless there is an existing or open crime somewhere on file and the document lends proof in solving it.

Unless he knows someone who is a conservator or is friendly with one who works for the FBI. Even then, the FBI should have nothing to do with it.

If you have an historical document you need authenticated, you would go to an appraisal firm or university, or a institution that deals with historical documents, private documents. Not the federal government.

But I'm sure the gentleman will clear this up for us. Perhaps there's something I'm missing here.
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Re: Travel Channel

Post by Franz »

Yes. We must be prudent before everything.

I certainly know nothing about the letters of Mary Grein. Anyway, it's difficult for me to imagine that a person (or his / her descedents) would have fabricate a hunge number of documents to --- to what? --- to try to prouve that this person was guilty of an unsolved crime --- in other words, to become a part of this legendary case. A mythomane, more probably, might have presented him / her self immediately before the authority after the murder.

Just some ideas for the moment:

1. Someone questioned: how could an intruder know the interior structure of the house (and the routine of the Borden family members) ? In my theory it was Morse who informed the executive killer. The question would be perfectly answered IF the killer was a former maid of the house.

2. Many people think that, according to the position of Abby's body and the injuries she received, Abby probably knew the murderer. Well, she certainly knew her former servant.

3. Many think the overkilling means hate. In Mary Grein's story, if true, the hate was there.

4. And, the mysterious woman Lubinski testified to have seen in the Borden's yard. The defendent part used it to prouve Lizzie did go into the barn and she was returning from there to the main house. But the detail of the hat, to some extent, troubled ...and her dark color clothes... Lubinski said only that the woman was not Bridget. Is it possible that the woman seen by him was no one else but the... female killer herself? Would a woman put a hat on her head while decided to leave home to kill? (Lubinski said she had no hat on her head). She was walking very slowly. Well, this might be explained by: 1. she was exausted physically and emotionally by what she had just accomplished. 2. Seeing there was no immediate danger to be caught, she walked slowly in order not to draw attention and therefore suspicion.

Having said all this, my favorite candidate for the murder is still... Morse.
"Mr. Morse, when you were told for the THIRD time that Abby and Andrew had been killed, why did you pronounce a "WHAT" to Mrs. Churchill? Why?"
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Re: Travel Channel

Post by MysteryReader »

True, true MB and Franz. The only thing I can think of is that the case still would be an open case/cold case. I haven't talked to Tim in a while as he's busy with work and funerals. I don't see a family making up letters and documents just to be famous. I don't recall the mysterious woman that Lubinski testified to have seen in the Borden's yard. I'll have to see if I can find it.
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Re: Travel Channel

Post by mbhenty »

Yes:

I always felt that Lizzie was not lying when she said she went to the barn.

Whether the barn or the yard, I always believed she was out there.....for what ever reason. (?)

Below is some testimony of Lubinsky talking about that woman which Franz mentions.

:study:



Q. Did you go down by the Borden house?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Well, when you got to the Borden house did you see anybody on the premises?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Whom did you see?
A. I saw a lady come out the way from the barn right to the stairs back of the house--- the north side stairs, from the back of the house.

Q. Right side of what?
A. I saw a lady come out the way from the barn right to the stairs from the back of the house.

Q. Can you tell how she was dressed?
A. She had on a dark colored dress.

Q. Could you give the color of it?
A. I can't tell what kind of color it was.

Q. Did she have anything on her head?
A. No, sir.

Q. What was she doing?
A. She was walking.

Q. In which direction?
A. She was walking very slow.

Q. Which way, towards the steps or away from them?
A. She was going down on the stairs toward the house.

Q. Toward the steps?
A. Toward the steps.

Page 1410

Q. Did you see her go in the house?
A. I don't know; I couldn't tell this.

Q. Where were you when you saw her?
A. I was in the team.

Q. Did you stop your team?
A. No, sir; I just trotted a little: not fast.

Q. Had you ever seen the servant who worked in that house?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Had you ever delivered any ice cream to her?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. How long before this?
A. Oh, two or three weeks before the murder.

Q. Was the woman you saw the servant?
A. I saw the servant and the woman too.

Q. Was the woman you saw the day of the murder the same woman as the servant?
A. No, sir.

Q. Are you sure about that?
A. I am sure about it.
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