The Curious Life and Death of ... Lizzie Borden

[Stefani]

NEWS! The Smithsonian Channel has a new series and the premiere episode is about Lizzie Borden!

The Curious Life and Death of... https://www.smithsonianchannel.com/deta ... d-death-of

I have been deeply involved in this particular episode since last year. I was interviewed, helped with research, and provided material. So was the Fall River Historical Society!

It premieres Sunday, September 6th at 9PM.

If you don't have Smithsonian but have Amazon Prime, you can add it for free for seven days and not subscribe. But time it well, if this is your plan. That is NEXT Sunday. One week away.

I have not seen the end result, so I cannot vouch for the final product, but they were all very professional and interested in facts. But a new take, as all the shows are.

[mbhenty]

Just came out today. Premiering tonight on the Smithsonian Station at 9:00 p.m.

I watched it.

Very well done. Of course you have some sensationalism which makes it entertaining. They get a couple of things wrong but nothing big.

Well worth watching. Our administrator of this forum is in it.

Some of these show are over the top with claims, assertions, and allegations. Not much of that in this doc.

(There is one thing the cop mentions that I don't agree with)

The show is online now for free!

https://www.msn.com/en-us/video/animals ... VtUsDCuzS4

[mbhenty]

Now here's my dispute with the investigator in this documentary. He claims that the deaths happened closer together than we think. His claim is that the guest room was warmer than the sitting room, about 3 or 4 degrees warmer. That would mean that the blood would dry faster. I don't agree. I don't think 3 or 4 degrees would make that big a difference.

One thing he doesn't know or realize is that at the time of day the murders happened the sitting room was probably much hotter than the guest room. It was the other way around. At noon time the sitting room was sunny. The sitting room windows face south.(just about south/south west a little) The guest room windows faced west.(a tiny bit west/north west) The guest room would not see sun until around 3 or 4 o'clock.

Besides, the time of death was measured by stomach content not the drying of blood.

Still a good show.

[LABRhush]

Just watched it! I'm glad you approached that Mbhenty. I wanted to see what someone more familiar w the area thought about the room temp conclusion. All around, I enjoyed the show. It was a different approach, which is refreshing

[LABRhush]

Ps. I was curious what you thought about the bundle Bridget left with?

[twinsrwe]

I watched the show three times, and found it interesting, but right from the beginning I wondered about the accurately of the information presented by the host, Dr. Lindsey Fitzharris and her partner in crime, Brian Hook. She states that she has always been fascinated with Lizzie Borden, yet she gets the most basic of information wrong? That information being the ditty that was created by an unknown person around the time of Lizzie’s trial.

Click on image to enlarge.

Screen shot of incorrect ditty.png

Because Dr. Fitzharris got the famous Lizzie Borden ditty wrong, I was put on the alert for inaccuracies, and there were several.

MB, thank you for answering one of my questions, that being what side of the house the guest room and sitting room where. I agree with you, 3 to 4 degrees warmer would not have made a difference. What would have made a difference is if there was a fan blowing on Abby, which would have made her blood dry quicker, but if there was one, it was never mentioned.

As for the blood spatter: As far as I know, it is not known if Andrew’s killer stood in front of him, like Dr. Fitzharris did, or if the killer approached him from the dining room and they stood at the top of his head. The thing I have never understood, is if the killer was an unknown intruder, how did that person escape the Borden resident with blood covered clothes on and a hatchet, without anyone seeing them?

Stefani, you look really good in your leather jacket!

It's very unfortunate that Dr. Fitzharris didn’t pay more attention to Stefani and the information she gave.

[mbhenty]

Yes, Bridget and her bundle. How devilish.

I never made much about it. She was going to sleep out that night and it probably contained overnight necessities.

But it does make one wonder, though it would be very bold of her to take the chance of leaving with a bundle in full sight of the police who could have searched it at anytime. If it were you would you not try to hide it under your clothing?

No.

To me the crux of this case lies in the time line. And none of the "experts" seem to discuss it or notice it.

There was a host of people that saw Andrew Borden, outside and alive around 10:30 to 10:40 including Mrs. Kelly, Jonathan Clegg, Joseph Shortsleves, James Mather, Southard Miller, Lizzie Gray, Bridget Sullivan, etc.

So we know he was alive at 10:40

He came back home, went upstairs, came back down, talked to Lizzie... etc. That had to take another 5 or 10 minutes. So lets make it 10:45.

Just around 10:40 Bridget sees Andrew Borden talking to Lizzie in the Dinning room, then goes upstairs to take a nap or rest.

She hears the city hall clock ring 11:00.

Around five to ten minutes later Lizzie calls for Bridget to tell her that her father was dead.

So, Borden is seen alive walking down the street at 10:40 and 20 to 30 minutes later he is dead.

Just not enough time for Lizzie to wash up and get rid of the axe. I say get rid of the axe without help by someone. What happen to the axe?

Lizzie just did not have the time. Lizzie did not commit the crime.

But.....

That being said it does not mean that Lizzie did not help the real killer to some extant. (Reason why Hyman saw her in the yard)

Lizzie was either making sure the coast was clear or she went outside as not to hear her father being killed.

If in fact she was outside making sure the coast was clear the most logical escape would be over the fence in the back yard and onto third street with much less traffic.

My two cents.

[Sminion]

Also now available on YouTube, Smithsonian's channel, which works for those outside the US too
https://youtu.be/p6VKFYdUrfg

[twinsrwe]

Hello Sminion, welcome to the forum.

Thank you for posting the YouTube link! It's interesting to read the comments.

[LABRhush]

Yay! This will be a lot better view when I screen cast. Thanks, Sminion

[MaryM]

Now here's my dispute with the investigator in this documentary. He claims that the deaths happened closer together than we think. His claim is that the guest room was warmer than the sitting room, about 3 or 4 degrees warmer. That would mean that the blood would dry faster. I don't agree. I don't think 3 or 4 degrees would make that big a difference.

One thing he doesn't know or realize is that at the time of day the murders happened the sitting room was probably much hotter than the guest room. It was the other way around. At noon time the sitting room was sunny. The sitting room windows face south.(just about south/south west a little) The guest room windows faced west.(a tiny bit west/north west) The guest room would not see sun until around 3 or 4 o'clock.

Besides, the time of death was measured by stomach content not the drying of blood.

Still a good show.

As someone who grew up in tenements in southeastern Massachusetts without air conditioning, I agreed with Hook when he brought up the difference in temperature between 1st and 2nd floors, though I think the differences on a hot day can be much higher than a few degrees, and that it could be as much as 6-10 degrees hotter. I tried looking for information on temperature affecting blood coagulation but wasn’t able to find anything specific. The coagulation process starts with seconds and occurs with 10-15 minutes, I found that out from a friend who is a retired nurse.

[mbhenty]

Yes I understand.

I too spent most of my life living in tenement houses. And worked in hundreds and hundreds of them. I was born in a three decker, and for the next 65 years lived in probably ten different three and two deckers in Fall River and throughout Massachusetts.

Temperatures in such buildings are not a detailed or specific branch of study. That is to say, the difference in temperature in a multi-family home has more to do with the position of the building in reference to others around it and the time of day, more so than if it was on the first or second floor.

During the borden murders, the sitting room, with windows on the south side, and during the peak of day, should have been much warmer than the guest bedroom, with widows facing north and west. The sitting room has a somewhat direct sun. The guest room was on the opposite side of the building and in shadow with three windows, on two walls, which if opened, could create a cross breeze if one existed. Also, considering the time of year, and the constant summer southerlies, the sitting room, on the south side, would have a breeze and the guest room less so. There are many factors.

Factors in the temperature of a room may have to do with nearby buildings that may block the sun, keeping it cooler, or if very close to other buildings, funnel a breeze between the two structures and into the room with an open window. Taking those factors in consideration, in the hight of day with a strong sun, the first floor of the average three decker had a better chance of being cooler in the city due to shadows from other buildings. But not always. At least that has been my experience. When I lived in a three decker on South Main Street my apartment was always much cooler than my best friend's apartment, where he lived on the third floor. I had the shadow of the other apartment houses nearby. But again, not always. This depended on conditions outside. If it was a windy day, his apartment was much cooler, being high up and catching the wind.

So condition, wind, sunlight, and location of a room or the entire building, and where it faced, made all the difference. This may or may not make a difference whether an apartment was on the first or second floors alone. The location of the apartment working with Mother Nature made all the difference. In the city it varied dramatically and not a sure thing or precise science.