The Cellar

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:25 pm

This thread is for you , Kat! Many guests are intrigued with the cellar as it seems a secretive, mysterious place at times. Here is the niche in the wood room where Bridget pointed out the starch box containing the handleless hatchet- I suspect the shelf went across the middle.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:28 pm

This is the spot underneath the black sofa, where the Luminol tested positive for blood in the TV special. Looks pretty ordinary by daylight!

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:30 pm

The spot where once was the bathroom for the girls, the water closet was on the wall between the windows -this is the north side of the cellar.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:40 pm

Scene of the former fruit cellar- now laundry room. A B&B makes for a LOT of laundry!

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:42 pm

The Southwest corner- you can see a trace of coal dust at the top where once this must have served as coal storage.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:43 pm

View coming down to the foot of the stairs looking west.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:44 pm

The clear view of the hayloft window taken from what was the old fruitcellar window.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:53 pm

The view from the old laundry room over the sink window- the back door enclosure blocks the view to the hayloft and barn window. The square dark thing is the new air conditioner unit.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:57 pm

The window on the driveway through which the officer observed Lizzie and Alice with a lamp on the night of August 4th.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 3:01 am

Wow Thanks! Although I have quite a few of my own cellar photos, these are unique views. It's always nice to see the rooms from different directions!

The view out the cellar window at the barn is pretty cool!
Just think how long it's been since that view was possible!
Again, Wow!

From my study of the cellar, trial testimony, Bill Pavao's personal tuteladge and floorplans- I can say that the handleless hatchet was found in the last cellar, around the corner from the furnace. Also, the clawhammer hatchet was found on a chopping block right outside of that same cellar room- the one furthest west, by the street.

Also, the windows that Lizzie and Alice were spied on thru were the one above where the sink was and then around the back corner of the house to the first window on the southeast side. Officer Hyde started out stationed at guard duty at the steps, but made his way around the back to watch thru the windows.
That came out when Cross-examining by Robinson was *resumed.*
~~~~

Trial
Hyde
849+
Q. (By Mr. Moody.) Your directions were to stay where, Mr. Hyde?
A. My direction was to stay on those steps on the north side until I was relieved.

Q. (By Mr. Robinson.) North side or south side?
A. On the north side, the steps on the north side.

Q. I understood you that you were on the south side of the house?
A. No, sir. My place, before I was relieved, was on the north steps, on the north back door, what you call the back door; the side door, I should call it.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:05 am

"Also, the windows that Lizzie and Alice were spied on thru were the one above where the sink was and then around the back corner of the house to the first window on the southeast side"

Wow- that's a revelation to me. I knew about Lizzie's second trip to
the cellar being observed from the east wall corner window which is the next to last one I posted- over what was then the sink.

So you mean the first trip with Alice was spotted from the first southeast window on the Kelly house side? Looks like the house tour will have to be re-written. On the plus side , the windows look the same from the inside.

I also was always told the hatchet was found in the first cellarroom behind the chimney , the backside of the chimney, which I took to mean the one where the caldron was where Bridget did the wash, not the little skinny chimney which is in the middle of the floor and has no room behind it. Bridget says there was a old starch box on a shelf-I always thought that open spot on the backside had the shelf (first photo). I will have to drag Len into the cellar next week for Cellar 101. Somebody told me all of this 15 years ago-wish I could recall who. Seems to me there is more about all this in Bridget's witness statement?

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:12 am

I got the most intense "hmmm..." feelings from the old laundry room. But then of course the cellar is my fav.

Tracy...

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 10:53 am

This might be a good thread to collect cellar testimony as any.
Harrington & Doherty Witness statements:

On entering the washing room, lying on the floor were two axes and one hatchet. There with another, which was then missing, I had previously seen upstairs, I think in the hand of Dr. Dolan. Immediately I went in search of the missing hatchet and found it in the first cellar. Immediately I gave it to Asst. Fleet and suggested placing it in some place where it could not be readily found. This he did.

F.L. Edson: "..

went into the wash room in the southmost corner of the cellar. On the floor were two axes and a single hatchet. Harrington said there was one more hatchet in the cellar. I went down cellar again. Harrington with me. In the vegetable cellar off washroom Harrington handed me a hatchet from a shelf or scaffold...they were common ones, had been used rough, the single hatchet the same. The large hatchet was in good condition and very sharp. On the back of the blade near the handle was a spot of rust or blood. From this spot to the handle was a light colored hair. There were dark spots on handle....The blade appeared to have been in water.....I carried the axes and hatchet openly in my hand.

Mr. Eddy
The large hatchet was comparitively new. When it was bought it was brought over here and ground sharp. The bench hatchet has never been used much since it was sharpened. Yhe hatchet and axes were kept in one place, in a box, in the wood room at the left of the furnace. Never found them in any other place, and always put them back after using them. Mr. Borden was particular about having one place for all tools.

D. Desmond:

At the outset of the search in the cellar, Officer Medley found a small hatchet. I wrapped it up in a newspaper and gave it to Medley to put in his pocket. It had no handle to it.

John Devine
Went into the cellar of the house with Officer Mullaly and searched there. Found 2 hatchets and 2 axes in the cellar. Two hatchets were in the wash cellar, and 2 axes were in the next room west of the wash room.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 10:57 am

This all seems like too many men moving hatchets and axes around. I wish Desmond had said where Medley had found the small hatchet. Mr. Eddy's statement carries a lot of weight in saying Andrew kept his tools in the far west wood room to the left of the furnance. Yet Devine finds two axes in that first woodroom behind the wash cellar chimney. Sounds like things were moved around to the point of it being hard to tell where what originally was found, and in which room first: wash room, first or second wood room. I'd like to pin down the first sighting of the handless hatchet if someone has that handy. Even John Riley only says " ..went to the cellar. Marshal Fleet, Mr. Morse, and Officer Mullaly were there. Looked through the cellar, saw the hatchets."

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 11:30 am

I get totally confused when the different rooms in the cellar are discussed. During the times I have been down there, there was always a group of people milling about and I have not been able to see it in my mind the way it was then.

This is Officer Medley's trial testimony (p696+):

Q. Describe exactly what you did until you found something.
A. We started to examine---

Q. I want your own personal movements.
A. Well, I examined all that I could in the wash cellar, then I helped to put out some barrels and things that were in a corner off of the wash cellar in another little cellar, and after putting part of those back in place I think there was a large pile of wood in that particular corner of the cellar, and after working on that awhile I came out and went into another cellar next to the wash cellar, and in there while searching I found a small hatchet head.

Q. Will you tell us where that was?
A. It was in a box.

Q. What sort of a box?
A. Well, a box perhaps fifteen or sixteen inches long and four or five inches deep.

Q. Do you recall where this box was?
A. Yes.

Q. Where was it?
A. The box was on a block---I am not sure whether it is a chopping block or a block made from a box, but it was some piece that rested above the level of the cellar floor, perhaps about a foot and a half high, and this box was on top of that.

Q. What was there in that box beside the handleless hatchet?
A. It seemed to me like old rubbish,---irons of different kinds, and one or two tools, I have forgotten just what they were; and some nails, I think.

Q. Was anybody in the cellar with you when you found this hatchet, or the head of the hatchet?
A. I don't think I quite understand that question, Mr. Moody.

Q. Was there any other officer in the same cellar when you found the head of this hatchet?
A. No, sir.

Q. Where was Captain Desmond at that time?
A. In the passage way in the cellar."

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 11:55 am

"and after working on that awhile I came out and went into another cellar next to the wash cellar, and in there while searching I found a small hatchet head. "

Thanks Harry- that was the quote I wanted! The room near the back door of the cellar to the left was a fruit cellar, to the right a washroom in 1892. Today that is reversed. The room behind the cauldron in the washroom chimney is the first wood room Medley refers to. The front of the house, westernmost (under the front staircase and entryhall) was another woodroom. The house tour has always included this room behind the wash room chimney as the room where the handless hatchet was found, according to Medley's statement.

What is so confusing today is that the sink in the cellar is now on the opposite side to where it was in 1892. The sixth photo I posted clearly shows on the left, the two entries to the two wood rooms. The first entry is to the room with the crevice, the one where Medley says he found the handleless hatchet. The second one is where Eddy says Andrew kept a box of tools regularly.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 3:40 am

He found that HH after it was put there just above the ground. At one time that confused me also.
You can trust me on what I claimed and I had Bill Pavao as my first guide, and I have studied the cellar exhaustively.

Please see my cellar plat in The Hatchet, Dec/Jan, 2004, page 25. My sources are footed on page 31.
I believe the Borden House has all the issues? They were donated recently by Stefani.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 6:45 am

"He found that HH after it was put there just above the ground"

Someone put the HH in the first woodroom before Medley found it there? I have seen that issue of the Hatchet. This is important as it is on the tour -so naturally I am concerned with getting it right. The cellar next to the wash room as Medley says, to us has always been the one with the crevice in it, directly behind the washroom chimney.

I leave today for 4 days in Amherst and Mount Holyoke so I will look forward to more details on the HH. Hopefully I might find out if Emma was at Mt. Holyoke ladies' Seminary!

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 10:15 am

Shelley @ Tue Oct 10, 2006 9:40 pm wrote:

Scene of the former fruit cellar- now laundry room. A B&B makes for a LOT of laundry!

Thanks for the info. Now I know my cellar isn't the only messy one!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 1:19 am

That cellar really is Not messy. It is very organized and clean. I've never seen it so well-kept as under the management of Lee-ann.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 9:51 pm

Medley is testifying about Monday. That is his description of where he thought he saw the HH on Monday.
The HH was first seen on Thursday.
And yes, it was moved and was stored about a foot and a half off the ground on a bench-like thing- it's hard to decipher on what the box it was in had been put.

Bridget brought officers to the cellar Thursday to show them the implements. Bridget lived there and knew where things were. I'm sure most people recall that it was said she *reached up* to get the axes and hatchets. By Monday, the HH was down low.

Most of the officers who saw the HH in the cellar admit they are confused about which room it was in, or which room they were in. If a person tries reading the testimony, it can't be out of context- it has to be read all the way through- each reference to the hatchets and axes.
I think Fleet is the most mixed up of all that day.
Bridget says the axes and hatchets were nearby the furnace, and we know where that was by the original Kieran floorplan of the cellar. Notice also that last west room is where the mason was at work and also notice the ultimate destruction of the chimney there in the last room- that's a reason it has been taken apart.

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 11:56 am

Kat @ Fri Oct 13, 2006 2:19 am wrote:That cellar really is Not messy. It is very organized and clean. I've never seen it so well-kept as under the management of Lee-ann.

I don't mean to be insulting; yes it is cleaner that some I've seen. But they don't have paying visitors.

Ever been in a farm cellar where they store foodstuffs and canned goods?

Let me clarify my comment: it is not behind shelf covers like a kitchen.
I would show you my cellar where boxes of stuff are piled up, but the camera broke. Or was it the battery?

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 6:05 pm

Thank you for posting all these cool photographs, Shelley. I'm going to add these to my private collection.

Seeing these modern photographs seems to bring Lizzie and the case out of the "dark murky" past and into the present day. Lizzie is beginning to appear to me as a person I can reach out and touch. Strange.

Thank you again.

-1bigsteve (o:

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 6:14 pm

I think the cellar is very well organized myself. Everything has it's place. I like those tags wired to the pipes. They probably tell what pipe goes where and what it is for.

It seems to be a well organized place. On the other hand, I think a tornado went through mine...

-1bigsteve (o:

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 10:30 am

You are very welcome Steve- yes, it was my hope to put out a clear view , even though a contemporary view of the house for true scholars of the case. I find the distances, doors and openings, dimensions and layout of the house crucial in understanding the case. Not everything can be gleaned from a line drawing. I have very large tiff files of every image, and will be happy to send a specific shot to anyone who needs it for personal study or to use in a printed article for the Hatchet, with a photo credit, please. I know there are many images online of the house from the legions of guests who have stayed at the house, but most of these either have people in them, or are taken from the angle of "souvenir shots"- , not particularly useful sometimes in making deductions.

As far as the house tour, of course it is the wish to be as accurate as possible. So, I will convey the learned opinions of those here who can document certain facts to those who need to know them.

Recently I had to modify my impressions of the wounds on Abby's head, most particularly the left ear skin flap- which after years of getting it wrong- was QUITE a revelation. But now we, who present the house to thousands of people, can get it right.

Yes, although there are many items in the cellar necessary to running a B&B, the new storage shelves have really brought order to the cellar pantry, and the reading area in the middle cellar (west of the old washroom) is coming along and will be a great space for quiet study. Books are already coming in, and bookcase space with chair and table and carpet. With the cold months fast-approaching, there will be a little breather in the hectic day-to-day pace to attend to little special touches, repairs, and household seasonal cleaning.

Just to clarify, to make sure I am comprehending all of the above: the officer on duty on the 4th had originally been stationed in the driveway area (north end) but had walked around to the Kelly side of the house to observe Alice and Lizzie, and then just Lizzie the second time?

Regarding the hatchet with no handle (HH) It was observed somewhere else other than the middle cellar on Thursday but nobody in 1892 remembers where? It was later found by Medley in that starch box Bridget mentions on Monday? This box was lifted up off the floor by having it sitting on top a block or old box. Other bits of metal and cellar odds and ends were in this box also.
Most of the tools were kept to the room left of the furnance- but since this was not a usable tool- in fact it was a bit of broken rubbish, it makes sense it was in the box with other bits of similar stuff. I know the thinking has always been it must have broken off during the attack, maybe the handle was the thing seen burning in the stove that day, it had been washed and dipped in ashes to make it look like a dusty old thing which had been there for ages, etc. What I need to get clear is just what is the story on this HH. Is this the same hatchet that had the ominous rusty spot and the hair on it also-a white hair later deemed to be animal in origin? I think the answers to these burning questions are important as everyone who visits wants to know about this most famous of all hatchets, and I would rather just say "found in the cellar" if we cannot conclusively determine just where it was originally found.

I had always thought this HH might be the murder weapon- the fact that it was in the box with other metallic junk now makes me think maybe Andrew just kept it thinking he would fix it someday (like the lock) . Wow- so many hatchets- so many careless policemen.....

Jeff · Post by **Jeff** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 3:33 pm

Can't wait to get a look at the old cellar. Boy does it ever look as old as it's 1845 debut. Looks very mysterious. Lizzie could have been down there washing all the blood off.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 5:17 am

I applaud your wish to be clear- but I have already posted about the claw hammer hatchet as being the one with the cotton fibre and the hair (which was not human)- quite recently. That was the implement that was found on the chopping block and was thought to be the weapon thru the preliminary hearing.

Also, since the handle of the HH was technically *found* and put back in the box Thursday, it can't have been the rolled up thingy in the stove being burned up when they peeked in there.

If no one can find my recent post about that, I will look it up again and reply again.
It's very late and I have been very busy on the magazine at this time. Sorry for any delay.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 6:58 am

"Also, since the handle of the HH was technically *found* and put back in the box Thursday, it can't have been the rolled up thingy in the stove being burned up when they peeked in there. "

I agree with that statement,- I was listing some of the popular misconceptions about the HH and the handle on the preceding thread page. and some of the questions frequently asked. The only question I have, that I would love to have the definitive answer to- is simply where was the HH first seen on Thursday? For the time being, this weekend, we shall just say "in the cellar". Thanks.

shakiboo · Post by **shakiboo** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 4:26 pm

Thanks Shelley for the pictures, that cellar is so big, with the same windows that Lizzie must have looked out of a thousand times!

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 10:06 am

Shelley @ Tue Oct 17, 2006 7:58 am wrote:"Also, since the handle of the HH was technically *found* and put back in the box Thursday, it can't have been the rolled up thingy in the stove being burned up when they peeked in there. "

I agree with that statement,- I was listing some of the popular misconceptions about the HH and the handle on the preceding thread page. and some of the questions frequently asked. The only question I have, that I would love to have the definitive answer to- is simply where was the HH first seen on Thursday? For the time being, this weekend, we shall just say "in the cellar". Thanks.

That "rolled up thingy" could just have been a paper listing a debt payable to Andy. Some claim it could have been a will, but Andrew Jennings said Andrew Borden made no will (using him).

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 10:26 pm

We had a little fun in the cellar last night and this morning. I have always wondered about how Lizzie and Alice could be seen from those narrow cellar windows when they made their journey that night. At first I thought the officer on duty must have spotted them from the driveway, then went back of the house to see Lizzie from the Kelly side when she returned to the washroom area later.

So a guest volunteered to go down with a lantern light and I bought 1000 night film. Sure enough, you can see the glow of a light from the driveway windows, but you really have to bend over to peek in the windows and identify the face. In this shot the camera lens is right up against the glass. Unfortunately the flash makes this very bright. It was pitch dark and the lantern just glowed under her face in reality.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 10:34 pm

The eyeopener for me was this shot. "Lizzie" is standing in the 1892 washroom and the view is standing outside the southeasternmost window (Kelly side) which is said to be the window the policeman saw all. I had to bend over low to see, and "Lizzie's'" face glowed ghostly in the dark with just the lantern, an effect lost here. You CAN see the washroom door open behind her. For the policeman to have seen Alice and Lizzie come down earlier from this same window, the door would have had to have been open. I also thought there was an alleyway partition, so I still am confused how he could have seen "the girls" from this window so far away and at such an angle. Naturally, as you can see, Lizzie's second trip would be easy to spot from this same window.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 9:12 am

Wow, that's a fantastic experiment of whether you could see the "girls" in the cellar! Thank you for that.

Officer Hyde describes it at the trial.

I can almost see Alice Russell trembling at the foot of the stairs.

kfactor · Post by **kfactor** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 9:51 am

Shelley @ Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:45 am wrote:"He found that HH after it was put there just above the ground"

I leave today for 4 days in Amherst and Mount Holyoke so I will look forward to more details on the HH. Hopefully I might find out if Emma was at Mt. Holyoke ladies' Seminary!

Resurrecting an old topic here - I came across the question of which female seminary Emma is supposed to have attended. I work at Mt. Holyoke College, and I just contacted the archives and asked if they could find out if Emma was ever a student here. If not here, I asked if they could point me to other possibilities.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 9:57 am

Wow that's great! Thanks a bunch!