Fall River Hotel circa 1877

Richard · Post by **Richard** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 10:02 pm

I'm hard at work at another Girl Detective story. But I need the help of you Forum Folk.

A large part of the action takes place in a down street hotel where a convention of furniture salesmen are gathering.

I need to know if any Fall River historian out there can suggest a reasonably believable location for this hotel, if not an actual hotel that would have been large enough to host dozens of furniture salesmen from all over New England.

Would anyone find it outrageous if I just invented a hotel. My preference would be to use a real one from history, but I wouldn't have time to research it or describe it in an accurate way.

Either way, I would love to get input from my fellow Bordenites.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 10:26 pm

You might use the old Hotel Mellen in Fall River, which was just filled with Lizzie connections.

.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 10:53 pm

Thought of the Mellen also but alas it wasn't opened until October 1888.

What about the Wilbur House? Anyone know if it was there in 1877-ish?

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 10:55 pm

Sorry Richard- what dates did you require exactly?Does it have to be prior to 1877 or does the action include a later time period? There are plenty of great hotels in Providence, New Bedford, Taunton and Newport if it had to be just 1877.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 11:00 pm

I positively wept when this grand old lady was torn down recently. Watch Hill, RI is maybe 45 minutes south east of Fall River. I watched the demolition-hearbreaking, but it was a firetrap.
http://www.nationaltrust.org/Magazine/a ... 012306.htm

Richard · Post by **Richard** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 11:14 pm

Alas, it must be 1877 otherwise Lizzie can't be a GIRL Detective.

Perhaps I'll make up a hotel that was built in the 1830s and demolished to make way for the "new" South Main in the 1880s.

The picture of the Mellen is exactly what I had visualized however.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 11:17 pm

Ah now, Richard, you must give Harry and me a sporting chance! A real hotel is vastly superior. I was just looking up the Parker House to check dates....the best fiction has real places and events.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 11:23 pm

Yes, Shelley, the Parker House in New Bedford would be perfect if it was around in 1877. After all it was where the jury was sequestered for her trial.

How about the Perry House in Newport where Bridget worked?

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 11:25 pm

Yay Harry! Just the ticket for Richard- shall we have a toast to it? Somewhere I think I can dig out a postcard of it. Will have to check the date though. I think it is in that regional booklet on New Bedford. The famous Parker House (as in Parker House breadrolls) is in Boston still, and opened in 1866. I am MAD for Victorian hotels- my favorites being the old Dakota in NYC and the Grand on Mackinac Island and the Coronado in San Diego..

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 11:30 pm

Richard- would a rooming house do? There were scads of them all over the city- every poor widow and spinster seemed to have rooms to let.

Richard · Post by **Richard** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 12:10 am

Ideally I'd like a hotel in the middle of Fall River that could host a few dozen furniture salesmen from all over New England. I considered moving the hotel to Providence or New Bedford, but it seems very crucial to have the action take place inside of Fall River.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 4:57 am

Richard, don't know if this will help or not as it doesn't have any hotels listed in the cities you mentioned. But, for what its worth, heres a link to the historic hotels of Massachusetts:

http://www.historichotels.org/hotel_by_location/MA/

Richard · Post by **Richard** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 10:01 am

Yes Susan, that does help very much. Thanks!

In service to the mystery, I need it to be a hotel where there is only one staircase going down to the main lobby from the second story. This must make it a relatively small hotel, not a grand hotel which no doubt had staircases on both ends of corridors.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:01 am

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:09 am

See how help is on the way Richard?

I just called Dennis and Michael at the FRHS and they will get back to me. I also called the city engineer, Byran Holmes, who, knows nothing about the Victorian Fall River, sadly. The folks at government center suggested the Preservation Society. I am going to their Open House on the 17th- #92 Second will be part of that by the way, and so I will pick the brains of those admirable folks who are bound to know.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 12:42 pm

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 12:54 pm

This is sad. I had high hopes for the new Preservation Society. Yes, I know the house on Rock, a couple blocks down the street from FRHS- I love to photograph these old houses in free moments and am seriously thinking of a book on notable Fall River houses, before they are GONE . I think you must mean the one that needs painting badly, but has beautiful architectural detail.

The upcoming courthouse is a real contemporary sore thumb in the eye of old Second Street. So near the glorious Academy Bldg, it will fit just about as well as O.J.'s glove. All very sad....

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 1:12 pm

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 1:22 pm

I understand perfectly- and share your despair. Returning to my own little hometown in the farm country of the Eastern Shore of Maryland, I could have died to find the glorious Victorian home of my grandparents where I grew up torn down to make way for an entirely unneeded through street going onto a highway which was closed anyway, years ago.

But still, we must try to make as big a noise as we can to raise awareness and fight the good fight, even when it seems we are losing. Documenting the buildings is important, networking with as many as we can to save the properties , or at least make others aware of what is going on is vital. I so enjoyed your article Michael, in the August Hatchet on growing up in Fall River- and could cry for all those who remember another Fall River. My love affair with this city began in 1972 as a new bride, and the changes just since then make me want to pull my hair out and wear black. Still, if we all lose heart- who will keep plugging away? I think raising the awareness of the beauty of the city and its architectural treasures must be the #1 priority, and we all must do whatever we can in any way we are able.

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 2:42 pm

Some of this is just emotional, the fact is that nearly nothing around today was the same as in 1789. Termites, carpenter ants, water, etc all make most buildings eventually obsolete. "It would cost more to fix it up than to tear it down and build new" they say. Not to mention insulation and cooling.

"Who is going to pay for it?" Pleas for preservation remind me of the fable about the mice who wanted to bell the cat. Still true today?

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:53 pm

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 6:16 pm

"that nearly nothing around today was the same as in 1789."

Ray, you are wearing a new hat today-. I am not sure just why you pick 1789, but I think a great deal is still around in the world today of that vintage thanks to preservationists. Shall we say for starters, maybe Monticello (1769), Colonial Williamsburg (with thanks to the Rockerfeller Foundation), Sturbridge Village, Plimoth Plantation, House of the Seven Gables (1688), etc. etc. etc. all lovingly restored by very emotional people who work hard and volunteer to preserve these places for future generations and write grants and appeal to philanthropic organizations.

Many of these buildings in need of cosmetic repairs are built better than the flimsy plastic and vinyl contemporary designs, are of finer craftmanship and materials, and some virtually impossible to reproduce-artisans aren't around to produce work of such high caliber.

If there's money around to build garbage, I can assure you there is money around to save historic buildings. I have worked in grant writing and in historic building preservation in Newport, and thank heavens for these emotional people who believe there are some things of the Past worth saving. The countless volunteer hours of research, letter-writing, lecturing, fund-raising and manual labor in hands-on work on these properties is staggering.

I hope you will not one fine day find yourself warehoused in one of the new plastic and vinyl Nursing Home boxes, with plexiglass windows, antiseptic gray walls, silk flowers, and disposable plasticware, overlooking a parking lot.

If you don't think preservationists are out there in numbers, and making a difference, then you've been in a cave for the last 30 years. The town where I currently live restores at least 2 colonial properties a year, the most recent a 1695 homestead which is also the town historical society. Along with recycling, saving the rainforests, and other worthwhile causes- saving America's architecture has at last become a "cool" thing to do. And just in time. Emotional?- well, I am positively rabid.

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 7:29 pm

Shelley @ Wed Dec 06, 2006 7:16 pm wrote:"that nearly nothing around today was the same as in 1789."
...
I hope you will not one fine day find yourself warehoused in one of the new plastic and vinyl Nursing Home boxes, with plexiglass windows, antiseptic gray walls, silk flowers, and disposable plasticware, overlooking a parking lot.

If you don't think preservationists are out there in numbers, and making a difference, then you've been in a cave for the last 30 years. The town where I currently live restores at least 2 colonial properties a year, the most recent a 1695 homestead which is also the town historical society. Along with recycling, saving the rainforests, and other worthwhile causes- saving America's architecture has at last become a "cool" thing to do. And just in time. Emotional?- well, I am positively rabid.

Ha-ha-ha. You are thinking I don't agree with you.
The reality is still: MONEY. Who is going to pay for upkeep. Where are the craftsmen who can repair? When was the last time you saw wet-wall construction, for example? What about building codes? Some old buildings must have modern electricity and plumbing, not like the old days before the Zoning Laws.
I suppose you've heard about "tear-downs" old properties valuable because modern houses can be built on them?
Ever live in a real old house? No indoor plumbing? Water from a well?

I think people who are emotional about other people's properties have some kind of attitude problem that masks inner turmoil. No that there isn't a lot of that going around. I wonder what you would have said about 70 years ago when Old Law tenements were destroyed for modern low-rent housing?

The film "Its a Wonderful Life" has one scene where people are moving out of Old Man Potter's tenements into new suburban homes? Are you against that? (Yes, there is a trade-off.)

PS A town where I grew up has destroyed many blocks of old factory buildings to put up apartment houses, etc. Any comments?

At least FR has recycled some of its old factories. Different politics?

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 7:31 pm

The significance of 1789 should be known to all American who have been schooled. Or maybe not.
Even an Au**ey would know the significance of quattre-vingt-neuf.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 9:10 pm

Mon Dieu, you do stray off the topical path Ray. 1789 as in the year the U.S. Constitution went into effect over the Articles of Confederation ?

By quattre-vingt-neuf, do you mean quatre-vingt-neuf ? (Four-twenty-nine)

Tracy...

Richard · Post by **Richard** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 10:10 pm

In the midst of all of this, I'd like to use the hotel called Wilbur in my story because I think the name is funny.

Does anyone know if the Wilbur was operational in 1877? where it was located? Approximately how many rooms and stories it contained?

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 10:41 pm

Ha ha ha yourself Ray. You know, I now know who will take Andy Rooney's place when he croaks. I will take the time to respond, although I doubt you will have the courtesy to read it being "too long" a response.

1/"Who is going to pay for upkeep"

Renovated and restored properties can function as housing, store and office spaces, - countless uses. You only have to check out Thames St. and Bellevue Avenue in Newport to see this application-as well as many other places all over the country. Historical properties are also turned into museums and historical societies. I visited three such places in Yarmouthport just this past weekend.

2. Craftsmen? Perhaps you are not aware of many apprentice programs, including stonecarving, period woodworking, wet-plaster and lathe, and numerous other historic methods of construction enjoying great revivals all over the country as young men and women turn to learning the old methods. I was amazed to see some of this recently on a tour of Trinity Church Copley Plaza, Boston and the Cathedral of St. John the Divine, Manhattan

3. When did I last see wet wall construction? Today. A colonial period home down the street is undergoing complete restoration by a local man whose life's work is bringing back the 1700's homes of this area. Nate Turner is 52- he has been doing this work here and in other New England towns since he was 19- he studied in a SPNEA (Society for the Preservation of New England Antiquities) program.

4. Building codes? I do not claim to be an expert on all of the building codes for every type of restoration. Much depends on the purpose for which the building will be used. In renovating the Borden house as a B&B there had to be 2 exits on each floor, sprinklers, marked exit signs, etc. as 13-20 people could be staying there over night. Historic properties often obtain waivers on the basis of preserving architectural integrity. I have recently returned from Concord to see the Louisa May Alcott home and The Wayside where some updated and safer lighting has been inconspicuously put in. It is possible to bring an historic property to comply with common sense codes without compromising the intergrity of the edifice.

5. Live in a real old house? Yes- without running water and plumbing- in the back country of the Black Water refuge in Cambridge, Md. We also had chamber pots and an outhouse and a barn pump and wash bowls and pitchers. The Victorian house of my grandparents had one freezing bathroom up on the third floor. I was bathed in a tin tub in front of the fire in the kitchen. I am not sure how this applies to the topic at hand- period homes can be modernized to include the basic amenities in an inconspicuous manner. The Fall River Historical Society has managed to use vintage fixtures to preserve the era in the bathrooms there.

"I think people who are emotional about other people's properties have some kind of attitude problem that masks inner turmoil."

And now, you are a qualified psychiatrist as well?
I rather think that people who get a real kick out of being argumentative for the sheer joy of annoying people must have some inner turmoil- deeply disturbed? We were discussing historic buildings- not someone's personal property. You should read all about Mr. Dube's recent fracas with the city of Fall River when he wished to build a non- Victorian style home next to Maplecroft after tearing down Lizzie's garage- a house not in keeping with the architecture of the neighborhood. You can look that up on the Herald web site. Mystic CT has strict historic color codes on how you can paint your house. If you do not agree- live elsewhere. So far, there have been no complaints.

6. I was not around 70 years ago, and would have to see these tenement buildings in question, and their significance to the history of the town. Do I think every single old building, shanty, shed, shack and hut should be saved. No-and neither does anyone I know in the field of preservation.

7. "Its a Wonderful Life" has one scene where people are moving out of Old Man Potter's tenements into new suburban homes? Are you against that? "
I fail to see how that is germain to the topic at hand. Are Old Man Potter's tenements falling down, sub-standard? Are they of architectural value, historic significance? Why would I be against people moving out of uninhabitable apartments? The recent return to reclaim some of the inner city row houses in Baltimore has been encouraging to witness, as well as the rehab of the old neighborhood of big Victorian houses in Asbury Park which had suffered such neglect and abuse for decades.

8. Re. Old factory buildings- Fall River has found some uses for the vast factory spaces from outlets to storage units and office space. Once again it depends on the factory in question. I live near several old spindle towns- Ashaway, Bradford, Norwich, Coventry, Wiilamantic. Some of the old factories are collapsing into the rivers on which they were built. Some are death traps and fire hazards beyond reclaiming. Some are allowed to simply deteriorate into rubble- every year there is at least one fire in these abandonned wrecks. And the bitter truth is that not everything can or should be saved just for the sake of saving it. Yet much is destroyed which ought to be saved thanks to sheer laziness, thoughtlessness, haste, and indifference and insensitivity to the history of the building and its significance to the city.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 10:43 pm

I hope to have these answers on the Wilbur soon, all the calls have been made but people were dashing around busy today, getting ready for the FRHS open house Saturday. I should have some information and a photo by Sunday. I spoke to Jeff Carpenter of the new Preservation Society but he is new to the city and did not know. Someone here may already have this information

but the wheels are turning.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 10:53 pm

I don't know if it was operational in 1877 but here is a photo of the Wilbur . In 1892 it was at 17 to 23 North Main St.

Your initial post mentioned a South Main St. hotel. The 1892 city directory lists a hotel called the Park House at 240 to 244 South Main. Other than its listing as a hotel and an ad in the directory I know nothing about it. The ad is below.

Richard · Post by **Richard** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:25 pm

Thanks Harry. The picture of the Wilbur that you posted shows a hotel which is almost exactly what I visualized when I wrote the first draft of the story. I'll wait on Shelley's research to see if it was operational in 1877.

The hotel doesn't have to be on South Main. North Main would do just fine. As long as its in Fall River since a Russian inventor staying at the hotel is there to do business with a textile merchant. To put the meeting out of town would be do-able, but not preferable.

Richard · Post by **Richard** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:33 pm

It seems that the Wilbur Hotel burned down in the great 1928 fire.

The story below is from a cached site on the internet (the original site has been taken down). It looks like it was scanned from a newspaper so there are multiple spelling errors.

For those who want to see the cached page:

http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:HWb ... =clnk&cd=3

From the Decatur Evening Herald February 3, 1928

Fall River, Swept By Fire; (Continued From Page stark, blackened outlines against a background of destruction. Main street's "granite block" war the first to catch the full force ot the fire. Then the blaze leaped to Central street where the Mohican hotel was destroyed. The JUalto theater, packed with a night crowd caught fire and the patrons were led to safety before the building col- lapsed. The theater also was dam- aged badly. Fight In Bitter Cold The flames spread uptown to the Big Durfec mill at Twelfth street; then on to Eighteenth street. Streets were turned to sheets of Ice by the cold and charred walls were ice-coated. Much of the fire fighting appara- tus was coated with ice and ren- dered useless. Scenes of desolation were left Fri- day. Much of the etty Is built of granite and some of these great building walls still were standing. At tho Pocassct all three structures were a 200- foot chimney remains as evidence of one of the city's great business en- terprises. Show Place In Ruing The "Granite for years one, of the main business buildings, was a mass of twisted girders. Firemen dynamited some of the walls of that; building but the flames could not be checked. Several flrement were in- jured in the explosion. Stories of heroism were told. Tele- phone operators, working at an ex- change near the Wilbur hotel, con- tinued at their boards for more than an hour as they watched the flames consume the hotel and eat steadily towards their building. The telephone lines finally were put out of com- mission shortly before midnight as the ice and flames snapped the cables.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:37 pm

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:46 pm

Often the first hotel in town was near the train station, in which case the McKinley might be old enough for your salesmen and could do. I saw the Wilbur photo on the Virtual Library photo gallery- it is nice and clear. I had forgotten it was there. Here's a 1907 postcard of the station and the McKinley Hotel.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:17 am

Try The Keeley Library.
They have Phillips History of Fall River there as a download (at the bottom). You can download these chapters from these volumes to find hotels and taverns in Fall River:

http://www.sailsinc.org/durfee/fulltext.htm
Vol. 1, Chaper VIII, pages 75+
Vol. 3 Chapter IV

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:05 am

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:10 am

Uh-oh! I thought the McKinley Hotel was the one shown on the postcard to the right side of the card.
Do you recall the address for the McKinley? So, I wonder what this hotel in the card was? Another mystery- Yay!

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:25 am

Richard, Michael just called from FRHS -here is the list from the 1878 diectory (sorry, no 1877 directory)
The Wilbur House (and it was definitely there in 1877) North Main
The Bromley at Pleasant & Jenks
Columbia House on South Main
Happy Hollow on Bay St
Narragansett Hotel on North Main
LaGrange on Bedford
The National on Central
Thurston House on Central
Union Hotel at the Narrows
Waring House on Central

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:26 am

mbhenty, I don't know if this is the second version of that card that you refer to. I call it the "nightime" version. These old eyes can't make out the inscription on the side of the building. Neither the 1892 nor 1896 City Directories list the McKinley Hotel.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:28 am

Way to go, Shelley! Good Sherlock Holmes-ing!

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:33 am

It's not your eyes Harry- it is just plain blurry. I had put it into photoshop and ZOOMED but no dice.
I had been told, and have read elsewhere that this is the McKinley. I will see Len on Sunday and he has probably as many resource books on the topic as the FRHS- I'll see what we can find out. I also have two other station cards I can check with a magnifying glass. But I do sort of like "The Wilbur" as a likely candidate. Aw shucks, mostly I am just Watson

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:43 am

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:48 am

Not yet Holmes! But the game is afoot. I am just off to see Lord Baskerville at the Hall. There will be news to report by teatime!

Now, where is a Hansom cabbie when you need one. . . .

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:48 am

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:50 am

Aha!

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:54 am

If the station was named in memory of President McKinley, and built after he was shot, it would place it at 1901- but, maybe an existing hotel was re-named for the slain president. I would pretty much bet there was always a hotel very near the train station- that was a universal pattern of the era. The golden age of postal cards is also in that era of 1900-1915, so we must pursue it further I think.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:55 am

mbhenty @ Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:48 am wrote:

COUL ! Harry, yes that's the one. Looks like it would be very close to the corner of Dyer and Pearce. But it Does say the Mckinley at the bottom of the card. Right you are Shelley.

I think the nighttime version is the same postcard but that they altered the original to make it appear nighttime. The same two people are in the middle of the road and the same person is leaving the building. Maybe time stopped.

This is the Bowenville station which I believe was at the bottom of Lincoln Ave. next to Pearce.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:01 pm

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:04 pm

I should have gotten the street addresses when I had Michael on the phone, ah well, it is a looong winter and we have days of happy frolicking around the icy streets to pin all this down. I say we make a weekend of it and crash at #92 with hot rum toddies

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:14 pm

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:20 pm

Shelley @ Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:50 am wrote:Aha!

Shelley: as I look at the image above and the beauty and tranquility it displays, if I lived in that time, taking into consideration my ethnic background and most likely station in life, that is to say being a European immigrant, a car such as that would no less run me over than let me board.