Lizzie's Old Church Falling Apart

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 2:55 pm

I just heard from a city architect friend that a chunk of the Central Congregational facade fell into Rock Street. MB- maybe you can get a photo today? I had just done a slide show last weekend on the church on the painted ladies link below. How sad! I hope it can be fixed!

Tina-Kate · Post by **Tina-Kate** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 3:17 pm

That's terrible---it's such a beautiful old building. Hopefully it can be fixed & without costing the earth!

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 3:23 pm

I just called Len to ask him to get a photo unless Rock Street is closed. Apparently this just happened. I am praying it is not my beloved gargoyle! I was just thinking so much of the exterior is looking crumbly! The owner SHOULD have enough money to pay for repairs. Thing is, how much MORE is unsafe? I am betting the city will order an overhaul and check-up. There are social services on the street, and it is a very heavily used route from North to South end of town. Someone could have been KILLED!

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 3:26 pm

I called LeeAnn who was on her way to the library for a Preservation Society meeting and she is heading over to Rock St. now to see what has happened.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:35 pm

The entire block around the Central Congregational was cordonned off in case more fell. It is all over the radio and will be in the Herald tomorrow/ Everyone who loves this building is very sad in FR tonight.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 2:15 am

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 2:21 am

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:30 am

Good thing the owner has the money to repoint the mortar. I had gotten a call from one of the architects in town saying "a chunk" had fallen from the steeple. Yes, I recall that earlier effort in the 1990's to acquire the property. We held one of the Lizzie Expos there in what is now the restaurant thinking that the building might be demolished soon. Remember when Aerosmith made their rock video in that steeple when it had a condemned sign on it? Loose brick was a problem back then. I photographed a lot of exterior issues this month- everything from loose mortar , to lichen and moss to peeling. It would take a king's ransom to put the buildings in tip top condition.

Tina-Kate · Post by **Tina-Kate** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 11:14 am

Thanks for the updates.

Doesn't sound so bad.

That impalement of the ground is rather creepy...

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 11:58 pm

viewtopic.php?t=2607&highlight=aerosmith

Topic that includes Aerosmith

GilC · Post by **GilC** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 1:03 am

Evidently the problems are worse than first reported:

Abbey’s steeple a ‘major problem’

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 10:02 am

Thanks for the update. I had rather expected to hear all of this. Well, if the Great Hall is shut down, which is the big money maker, you can be sure the owner will get busy as he has weddings booked there. And it WILL cost big bucks.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 9:56 pm

Looks like Rock Street is going to be closed just before the church until some sort of securing netting can be put up. I feel sorry for merchants who are losing business because cars can't park in front. This cop was probably wondering why I was taking his photo.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 6:33 pm

The story of the steeple made the front page yesterday. I stopped by to get a few pix of the netting going up on the church- this is phase one of securing the falling elements.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:56 pm

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:59 pm

Tina-Kate · Post by **Tina-Kate** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 5:33 pm

Wow, that looks a bit like a medieval fantasy. The rest of Cen Cong still looks lovely.

Thanks for showing us.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 11:28 pm

Just learned from Mondo Lizzie Borden that the Abbey Grille is under the gun for foreclosure next month. This is a sad day for a great restaurant and a wonderful landmark in the city. I cannot imagine who will ever buy the place what with the cost of repairs and upkeep. We send so many guests from the B&B there-this will be a horrific loss. The Mutton Eaters also have our annual awards banquet there too. I hope someone rides in on a white horse and saves the day!

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/MondoLizz ... reclosure/

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:32 am

Yes, and indeed there is a Horseman on a White Horse waiting to make his appearance. After all this is Fall River, Bordenland, home of the "we'll try' gnomes, custodians to the keys of preservation.

If you know your bible, the Apocalypse in particular, then you may be familiar with the first horseman who comes riding a white horse. And you can be sure he will not be there to render good deeds.

Thus don't be surprised if a good portion of the church is dismantled or taken down. One thing you can be sure of is the tower. Not long after it changes hands you will see the spire taken down and shortened.

Back just about 30 years there was a movement in Fall River by some pure hearts to save the church from the wrecking ball and from city officials who had pronounced that the tower was about to topple and the building should be taken down.

So it is likely that the rider will be on a pale horse. So line up and collect your souvenir brick.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 8:57 am

That's terrible news. I pray that something can or will be done to save such a beautiful building. Fall River doesn't need another square box building to replace it.

william · Post by **william** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 8:58 am

Let us shed a tear for the grand things that have receded into the past....

Fargo · Post by **Fargo** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 9:04 am

I really wish I had checked it out when I was there. A Cab Driver told me that it was a Restaurant. I drove up to it, but it didn't look like it was open.

Tina-Kate · Post by **Tina-Kate** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 9:15 am

How awful. I guess the best we can do at this point is hope & pray for a good outcome.

Another place to save should someone here miraculously win a lottery...

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 10:12 am

Well, I am praying that they will honor its place on the list of historic places, as a Swazey/Hartwell building, it has architectural merit-this is the team that gave us the Sarah Brayton/ Simeon Borden mansion and the Academy Bldg. Surely this cannot go the way of the old city hall- it would be criminal. I predict a HUGE hue and cry if the wrecking ball comes around and you can bet I will be a loudly vocal baying hound at the head of the pack. We may have to chain ourselves to the gate a la Mrs. Pankhurst. http://fallriverpaintedladies.wordpress ... al-church/

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:42 pm

YES:

I did not mean to imply that the old church will be demolished, just that I have little faith and trust in city officials to do the right thing. fall river has an awful record when it comes to preservation.

But, in the same breath let me add that if they do dismantle the old place it would not surprise me at all. At the very least you will probably see the spire shortened.

There are a couple of churches standing in fall river today which have had their spires removed or shortened due to hurricanes or disrepair. If someone does buy it they would need to prove that they could upkeep the place and that would mean immediate attention to the spire if they expect to have the bank lend any money. And, in these times it AIN'T LOOK GOOD!

OH NO, WATCH OUT..........HERE COMES ONE OF fall river's HORSESMAN NOW

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:56 am

What a shame. The restaurant was really good - and sooo interesting inside. Let's hope FR preserves this 'historically Lizzie' building.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Thu Jul 09, 2009 10:13 pm

Bidding was brisk today as the sale of equipment from the former Abbey Grille and Culinary Institute was put on the block. Everything from cookie sheets to the handsome 6 foot fountain in the courtyard was up for grabs-even the liquor license. The Fall River Herald News has the full story http://www.heraldnews.com/business/x737 ... e-by-piece

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 2:28 am

This place was sold before- I realized! Obviously!

"Historical Church To Be Put Up For Sale" The Sunday Enterprise, 12/20/1987

smitty · Post by **smitty** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 5:51 pm

Hello. I'm interested in the Fall River architecture and read about the old Central Cong. Church being auctioned today . The bank bought it.

I read about it here

[edit by admin]

Stefani · Post by **Stefani** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:31 pm

A much better source for the real story of the sale of the Central Congregational Church is at http://mondolizzie.com ---my blog.

The page you cite is merely a rant. There is way more to the story of the sale of the Central Congregational Church than what is reported there. It is so easy to judge others you do not know from far away, without understanding the complexities of such a situation as this. Until you live in Fall River, experience it in all its "mediocrity" as some would say, live through the bitter winters and oh so hot summers, you truly cannot understand how the intricacies of public life intersect with politics, and the nuances of working within the machine to effect positive change.

For instance, I am personally involved in preservation issues in Fall River. One of my closest friends is Al Lima, who worked tirelessly on preserving the CCC when it almost was destroyed in the 1980s. He, working with others, organized and purchased the building in an attempt to save it. It was a huge problem then, and the folks who devoted all that time, money, and effort to save it last time did not have the energy to do it once again.

There is no need to take the citizens of Fall River, or those who are interested in Fall River history, the "historical society" members, to task for this sale today. Everyone who could do something tried to do so.

Those who spend their lives saving historic properties, schools, structures, and green space are to be commended for the work they do, not taken to task for this sale today.

Remember, the past owner, George Karousos, who opened up the culinary school and the Abbey Grille, defaulted on his 1.6 million dollar mortgage. Karousos owed $425,000 in back taxes, with about 60 creditors seeking another $743,000 for breaches of contract and unpaid services.

Now who has that kind of money these days to make that work? If the past owner hadn't run the place into such financial ruin, hadn't owed so much money to so many people, then maybe, just maybe, the CCC could have been saved.

Sometimes, some things just can't be saved. It is not, repeat not, the failure of the preservationists and historically minded citizens of Fall River for this happening. It is the failure of the past owner to run his business properly.

SteveS. · Post by **SteveS.** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 7:21 pm

I am originaly from fall River.......born and raised.....so I will dare to speak my piece about the CCC auction. Yes, the previous owner ran his business into the ground unfortunately but I don't see the whole blame of the church's present situation just falling on his shoulders. I also can't place the blame entirely on the city or it's citizens. The purchase and repair costs are extremely high and unfortunately our economy isn't the best right now. What I personaly would of liked to have seen happen to the CCC is to be purchased by a religeous group and used AGAIN as a house of worship. Alas, I don't have all the answers as to how and by which group this could of been done....it's just what I personaly would have liked to have seen happen to a piece of Fall River's past.

Stefani · Post by **Stefani** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 7:46 pm

steveS, whomever purchased the place has to pay off all those creditors first. It is just too much money. Even if a church bought it, it would be that much money to walk in the door.

The city does not have any appetite to take it on. I asked the mayor to his face this question just last week. Now is not the time to purchase dark money pits like the CCC.

It is Karousos' fault for letting the place go to rack and ruin under his stewardship. The inside, when I was there when the restaurant stuff was auctioned, is in terrible shape----the great hall is in need of lots of repairs. The cellar had a bout an inch of water on the floor. The flooring in the great hall's kitchens need to be replaced. The window frames on the inside were not cared for. Nothing looked good to me. It was very very sad.

The restaurant part of the Grille was in better condition. In my opinion, the place would have been sold again as a restaurant if the bank had kept the kitchen equipment and the liquor license with the structure. When they gutted that out and sold it off piecemeal, they made the space even more in need of funds to make it a restaurant or banquet hall again.

One local businessman was very interested in purchasing the CCC, but that was before it was ripped up for auction. He said it would cost too much money to make it work now, now that it had no stoves, ovens, etc.

Stefani · Post by **Stefani** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 7:54 pm

I didn't mean that one can't have an opinion about Fall River unless they live here .. . . . . I mean that to make attacks on historical preservationists and societies for the sale of the CCC today is uncalled for. There is oh so much more to the story. It is not a simple thing with simple solutions.

As you know from being from here, the city works in mysterious ways! And folks don't seem to come together for much. Most of the the people who go to concerts at The Narrows, for instance, are from out of town. There is a high unemployment rate, a high poverty rate, and the school system is two seconds away from being taken over by the state for malfeasance.

There is a budget shortfall and cops and firefighters have been lain off. The city workers were asked to have their salaries reduced by 8%. Tough times.

So when most of the city thinks that the saving of the CCC is way down on their priorities list, it sort of makes sense in context.

NOTE: this is from tomorrow's paper:
http://www.heraldnews.com/news/x1886175 ... -wage-cuts

AND THIS:
http://www.heraldnews.com/news/x6408712 ... -positions

SteveS. · Post by **SteveS.** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:14 pm

I agree with you whole heartedly Stefani believe it or not. I agree that the city could not and should not take on that kind of expense at this time, it would definitely be fiscaly irresponsible. I also agree that the astronomical costs shouldn't have been placed on the shoulders of any preservation group or the FRHS. I also agree that the former owner did run his business into the ground and unfortunately took the CCC with it. And lastly, I also agree that one can live anywhere and still have an opinion about Fall River and I also agree that one does need to live there and experience how Fall River and it's civic leaders and it's citizens interact to actualy know the nuances of Fall River politics. I just felt the frustration in your words about that article from the name I refuse to mention and I think my post was more directed at that person's ranting about the city that (besides all her faults), I still love and call home. I was just stating my wishfull opinion that I would have loved to see the CCC as a house of worship again. I think above any kind of museum or restaurant or any other use the CCC as a house of worship again would be the best tribute to Lizzie and to Fall River.

Stefani · Post by **Stefani** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:26 pm

Then we truly are on the same page. Thanks!

SteveS. · Post by **SteveS.** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:51 pm

You are truly welcome.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:42 pm

Yes, As for me.

I'm hoping that Hurricane Bill comes by and just blows the entire church over.......put it out of it's misery.

Now that the bank owns it, all bets are off.

Anything they can do to get their money back they will.

That includes tearing it down and selling the lot as prime commercial property, a parking lot or a Portuguese museum.

smitty · Post by **smitty** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 1:24 am

I sincerely apologize for causing such a heated response. I did not mean to cause any trouble. That was my very first post. I only thought the blogger pointing out what happened in 1889 and comparing dollars then and dollars now was interesting. The link to the newspaper article was given and I read the replies where the blogger posted in the final analysis "it comes down to money and that the repair costs were just too much." This is what you were saying, Stefani.

The other point I read was the blogger pointing out the silence of preservationists when there has been so much about a house Miss Russell lived in and a paved area of a public park, but no mention of anyone or any group, although the article says your friend Mr. Lima is not giving up. Can the church be saved after all?

I dont want to cause any disharmony here. I certainly did not mean to cause the administrator to write 3 ranting posts in reply to mine. I'm very sorry.

This is a less controversial post and much more interesting:

[edit by admin]

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 12:02 pm

Yes, Smitty, welcome.

If your interest is in architectural buildings and that is your game, you will find stimulating conversation on this forum.

But, please allow me to furnish a little tip.

Referring others to the link you supplied will make you little friends on this site. Many here are very aware of that site and it's MO.

Though it is very informative, it tries to be controversial, by disputing the finding of others. It tries to lesson and diminish the work of other historians by belittling their findings. This is done not in the name of healthy debate, but personal satisfaction, bullying and intimidation.

Let me add again, that site is IMFORMATIVE AND VERY WELL DONE. And, I urge you to continue your visits there. But there's a hormonal desire to attack, rebuke and place assault on the endeavors of others, which is derived from fear, inferiority or down right meanness, that exists there. Why? Who knows....

Of course, you may do as you please, and be pleased with what you do...... understand, no one here is preventing you from posting your free voice.

But, that being said.

If you want to make friends here, I would not post the link to that blogger.

There's a long history with many on here with that site, and not a comfortable one.

Just a tip. You'll get more response from others if you don't.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, not sure what you read on the Alice Russell house.

That was my discovery. I'm the one that put the fight to save the Alice Russell's Neighborhood into gear.

This was a fight to save a neighborhood, not Alice Russell's house alone. Her house just happen to be in the mix. It was a fight to stop the hospital from expanding by demolishing old neighborhoods. About saving the neighborhood, not one house. Of course the Russell house became the center of discussion on such sites as this one and other Lizzie blogs. But it was all about saving Neighborhoods. As a matter of fact the organization that spearheaded the fight is called, "Save our Neighborhood.

Along with the historical residential buildings removed, a perfectly sound brick mill was removed. This was the second stage. Several years ago the hospital demolished the other half of this wonderfully irreplaceable brick mill building.

People don't realize it, probably because the are worried about their own health, but the hospital is not the city's friend. It doesn't even pay taxes. To the complexion and well being of families and their residential property it is nothing but a parasite and leeches, who get free reign to do as the please as city fathers happily cater to them and destroy whole neighborhoods.

smitty · Post by **smitty** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 3:37 pm

I am interested in historic architecture throughout all New England and the State of Mass with Boston, Providence, Salem and yes, Fall River are especially magnificient. Some towns and cities have done better than others in their preservation and renovation efforts. The State’s Historic Preservation is to be commended. Fall River seems to have remained on the low end of the spectrum in these efforts. Is this due to the economic base and not enough people caring enough?

The Charlton hospital(s) provide high level health care do they not? What if it did not exist? All those jobs gone. From doctors to technicians to building maintenance let alone the vendors and supplier businesses that rely on them. And those employees buy things in Fall River and contribute to the town’s sales tax, correct? Seems to me a resident would be proud and grateful they are there. But I can not speak to their methods of obtaining more land for expansion. I do not know anything about that. Where I live we have two large medical centers and they are a large contributors to the economic base as well as large charitable contributors.

Regarding that blog, yes it is very, very informative. I discover new things about the case and Lizzie all the time. I actually like the caustic wit of the writer often very funny as well as insightful. But that is because that is the kind of humor I like, similar to some of my favorite standup comics. [edit by admin] I do not judge bloggers by what other bloggers say. As with my research into many of my interests, I take an objective view and seek out facts, not hearsay or speculative theories. If I did, I would be a poor researcher. With that in mind, I am surprised I would be warned about giving links to it. Censorship? I have to disagree with your description of it because I have never found it to be as you describe, even with the book reviews that turned out to be very accurate (i.e. Elizabeth Cheney). I would continue reading Tattered Fabric even if you had not recommended I do so, but like I said before I do not wish to create any disharmony here so I won’t post any more links. However, I really was very much taken aback by Stefani’s replies to my first post here. Very intimidating.

Fall River does not sound like a good place to live right now. But hasn’t it been a “hard” place to live for the middle and lower middle class for many generations? Any place is a good place to live if you have enough money. But if you have very little and fewer opportunities, any place you live would be hard to live in.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:37 pm

Yes, most of the population in fall river has no interest in historical property. Those who do most likely live in a historical home. Out of those which live there many don't care, and most of the rest just care about their own property.

And if it comes to spending anything more than a dollar............then, all bets are off and the historical edifices be dam.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:48 pm

As far as Charlton Hospital is concerned, NO, it is not any great place to be sick in.

Yes, they do have state of the art medical equipment, to bad they don't have the personal to discover illness.

Just because I have a Ferrari doesn't mean I'm a good driver.

The last two people I know that went to Charlton were sent home with infections overlooked by the staff. One of them went to St. Anne's Hospital where they discovered her aliment. My friend Ken's wife who was confined to bed, always came home more sick then when she went in. Everytime she went into the hospital she would come out with some sort of infection she did not have when she went in.

Believe me, hospitals are not your friend. Thier just another Wall-mart with premium fees.

And if it's Charlton Memorial, then you can figure that the "Memorial" portion is meant to discribe their patients.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:14 pm

People are not here because Charlton Hospital is here.......Charlton is here because the people are here.

No, this community does not need Charlton. If people here were proud of their city they would not allow the hospital to recklessly play at will. What are they going to do if the city does not play ball.......go away? St. Anne's would love it.

If you do a survey you will discover that most people at Charlton do not even live in the city.

Then go. There will be another hospital to step in and play by whatever rules the citizens impress on them.

They are there because the need is there. Where there's a need there are enough innovated people to supply that need without destroying neighborhoods.

But, instead we are stuck with corrupt politicians and a city full of cowards.

And all those good people living in those wonderfully large homes in the Rock Street area.........well, they only care about what goes on across the street from their home. When that happens they are screaming bloody murder.

And no. Fall river is not a good place to raise a family. Believe me, I have lived here for over 50 years. The city doesn't care about residences, just businesses.

Sadly there is a very tiny, tiny and I mean tiny group of people at the front lines fighting bad change here.

Those in fall river who love the Congressional Church better pray that the state does not come up with the idea for another court house. If so, and if they think that lot is a good location, that church would go down faster then you can say Reverend Buck.

Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Lizzie's Old Church Falling Apart

Lizzie's Old Church Falling Apart

Abbey Grille foreclosure