Hyman Lubinsky

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:20 pm

We need a poll thingie. Oh, I don't doubt that he may have seen somebody-I am not totally convinced it was the Borden barn and yard and that it may not as well have been Eagan, Churchill, or someone else. Even if it really was Lizzie, it does not prove she was not the killer, only that she had been outside. And I believe she was guilty- both murders- and done solo.

SteveS. · Post by **SteveS.** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:22 pm

LOL now theres a whole nother topic and thread just waiting to happen.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:24 pm

Lubinsky supposedly told officer Mullaly about his observation two days after the murders. He talked to a reporter some time after that. Both accounts mention 10:30 as the time given. His testimony indeed puts him north of the house, looking down the driveway. I imagine his insistence on having seen someone coming from the barn may have had something to do with the sight angle past the Kelley house. He assumed the person he saw came from the barn, he didn't actually see anyone leave the barn and walk toward the house.

I have to agree with several of the previous posts, the real value in the testimony was not true or false, it was the merest possibility of doubt which it fostered. If he saw Lizzie walking from the barn to the house at about 11:15, it does not necessarily negate guilt. She might have walked to the barn five minutes earlier to clean up.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:28 pm

I'll vote that the Lubinsky testimony is shaky at best, and Lizzie is guilty. I would like to see the angle of sight and how much the stairs and railing obscure the view.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:29 pm

And possibilty of doubt is all you need. I remember wanting to scream when OJ Simpson made such a show of pulling that glove on saying it did not fit- therefore we had to acquit! You could see the thing had been wet and had shrunk and he was doing his utmost to make it not fit. Still, there was a doubt that maybe he was telling the truth. Hmmm- is this horse dead yet?

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:36 pm

I think that horse is still wagging his tail!

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:45 pm

Aw- one more kick. I think this is about the right view, only Lubinsky would have been sitting up higher in the carriage and have had this view somewhat raised in perspective. Frankly I could not see a thing coming from the barn or near the steps and that big gate post blocks the stairs view.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:06 pm

Yes:

Sorry about that Shelley....but I will need to dispute that view.

The one that SteveS posted is the right one.

When Lubinsky testified, he said he saw Lizzie when he was in front of the Bowen house.

The Bowen house was almost one whole property north. The Bowen house was directly across the street from the Buffington house (Churchill place). Sitting in his cart in front of the Bowen house, he would be well past the Borden Place and yes, he would need to look right, over his shoulder. In that respect he would see part of the yard and see someone walking towards the porch.

So, SteveS has the closest view of what Lubinsky saw.

Looking at the photo below you can see the north east corner of Bowen's house, with the Borden place across the street. Of course, if you use this perspective it would be wrong, because the person who took the photo is "past" not in front of the Bowen house.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:20 pm

"When Lubinsky testified, he said he saw Lizzie when he was in front of the Bowen house. "

Well he never actually said he saw Lizzie. I will split the difference and say somewhere between the two pix should about do it. The little jog shows better in Steve's photo and one would have to be advanced somewhat beyond the driveway to see daylight between the barn and house. When driving a carriage, also to bear in mind, one has perhaps 6-7 feet of horse and rig in front of one.

Still kicking, huh?

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:26 pm

Yes, this shot is much closer. You can actually see the number plate on Lubinsky's ice cream cart.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:29 pm

Yes, you are right.

He never said he saw Lizzie. He saw a women in a dark dress. The only thing he did add was that he knew it was not the maid.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:34 pm

Ah yes, angle is better but wrong time of year- and no foliage, fence, gatepost tree out front, shrubs, etc. and the covered side stair canopy is there But it's a simply ripping view of the proximity of the Buffinton manse. Now, some clever person who is good with photoshop should do a composite photo of the three photos with all the correct elements in place at that angle. But not me- I'm going to bed. Carry on.

SteveS. · Post by **SteveS.** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:41 pm

That photo scares me because if you look close enough you can actualy see a horned devil figure with a hatchet in the guest bedroom window.

perhaps this is where MB got the horny Lubinsky idea from.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 12:20 am

Call the men with the nets. Whilst on my pillow trying to sleep, I could not get this tune out of my mind. Sing to the tune of the Beatles' Eleanor Rigby. It will soon drive you nuts.

Hyman Lubinsky, picks up his rig
At the stables on old Second Street,
Heads for North Main

Sits on the wagon, wearing the face
That he keeps just for peddling his wares
Nobody cares.

All the hungry people
Where do they all come from?
All the hungry people
Where do they all belong?

Hyman Lubinsky, scanning the street
Checking both in the front and the rear but
No one comes near

Look at him watching, blinking his eyes
In the light, is there somebody there?
What does he care?

All the guilty people
Where do they all come from?
All the guiltless people
Where do they all belong?

Ah, look at all the furtive people
Ah, look at all the blameless people

Hyman Lubinsky, told what he saw
‘Twas a girl, but he knew not her name
But somebody came

He saw her walking, hand on her hip
As she walked twixt the house and the barn
Was it just a good yarn?

All the nosey people
(Ah, look at all the prying people)
Where do they all come from?
All the guilty people
(Ah, look at all the stealthy people)
Where do they all belong?

Hyman Lubinsky went to the court
Did his duty for all those to hear.
The Defense cheered.

Hyman Lubinsky homeward he went
Lived and died, buried under his stone
Now all is done.

All the guilty people
Where do they all come from?
All the guiltless people
Where do they all belong?

SteveS. · Post by **SteveS.** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:58 am

I really like that Shelley. It tells the whole story of the involvement of Hyman Lubinsky in the Lizzie affair and it's overall impact. See, that's what I meant that you are all so talented on here. And you are right......it sticks with you. You need to write "Lizzie", the musical.