104 Third Street

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nbcatlover
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104 Third Street

Post by nbcatlover »

Help!

Is anyone able to tell me where the 1892 address of 104 Third Street was in relationship to the Borden home?

I believe it was one street over but about 4 blocks away, but this is just one of the responses I've gotten.

Thanks-Cynthia
mbhenty
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Post by mbhenty »

:smile:

Yes nbcatlover.

From what short study I have done, I would need to agree that 104 Third Street is where you mentioned.

Lets see............

If you went into the Borden's back yard.....jumped over the back fence, (watch out of the barb-wire) onto Third Street, turned right and walked up Third Street for 4 to 5 blocks, you would come to 104 Third Street in 1892.

Now, when I looked into it it appeared a little confusing. In 1892 the Borden house was numbered 92. Today it is numbered 230.

In 1892 Booth Bros. was at 112 Third Street. This is only 4 addresses away from 104. Yet, today 112 is numbered 602. The comparison of the two addresses are out of sync.

I could only deduce from this that though the addresses on 2nd street begin at Pleasant Street and run South; the addresses on 3rd street began on Lyon Street and ran North. The number order was in different directions.

Thus: 104 Third Street would be between Marble and Branch Street on the East side of the street.

Below is a map showing Third, Branch, Marble, Second, etc. The tear drop with the "A" is on the Borden house. 104 Thirds Street would be on the lower right near Branch.......4 to 5 blocks south.

The other photo shows the approx. location. You are looking North on Third in the direction of 92 Second Street. 104 would be on the right just beyond the little brown cottage. There's a new apartment/condo building there today......which is just behind the little cottage just out of view.


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mbhenty
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Post by mbhenty »

:smile:

Yes, would you like to tell us what is so particular about 104 Third Street? I cannot remember any connection between the address and the Borden case? :scratch:
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Post by mbhenty »

:?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :silent: :silent: :silent: :silent: :silent: :silent: :silent: :silent: :silent: :silent: :silent: :silent: :silent: :silent: :silent: :silent: :silent: :silent: :silent: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:
mbhenty
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Post by mbhenty »

:smile:


Yes, nbcatlover. Is there some reason why you haven't responded? Is it a secret mission your on? Doing some sort of study? Etc. etc.

What ever the reason, I am sure everyone here would like to know.

You can't ask such a question and leave everyone hanging. We have elderly people on this forum and the suspense could kill them.

So what is it?

What is so important about 104 Fourth Street?

I drove by 104. Witnessed a purse snatching and a drive-by shooting, but upon questioning the old lady who lost her purse and the gunman, with the stocking on his head, neither one of them ever heard of Lizzie Borden or even realized that they were on Third Street.

So.

What is the connection between 104 Third Street and the Borden case?

Tell us, tell us.....

:axeman:
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Post by mbhenty »

:smile:

Oh Great, your back........


So, can you tell us?

:?: :?: :?: :?:

What can we discover about 104 Third Street?
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Post by nbcatlover »

Sorry, mbhenty! Been working 12-hour shifts--haven't been online.

Was examining some old notes on the basis of the "vagrant." Had the name 'Nora Donahue' associated with a visitor to the Borden yard from the David M. Anthony story (Ruby Cameron's story).

There was a Honora Donahue who lived at 104 Third St. at the time. She's later listed as widow of Martin...and over the years becomes listed as Nora. There was also a Flora Hood in the Ruby story, who I could not locate in the late 1890s, but who turns up after 1900 connected to a business.

I think there was a lot more traffic in and out of the Borden's on the day of the murder than has ever come to light. I've been looking at a liquor salesman (Pfeiffer) from Providence who later became a saloon owner, and also Rufus S. Robinson, father of Lizzie's mysterious cousins in Swansea. I think Pfeifer may have been the man to whom Andrew would not rent a store.

Rufus was a stable keeper at the time of the murders, was later a farmer and was an Inspector of Slaughter at one point for the town of Swansea. I think he owned a hatchet, though I do not think he was the one who used it (but that's my own speculation).

I've still been investigating a connection between "wheelmen" in connection to the case (beyond Trickey and David Anthony). Some clubs have lists of members, others do not. Haven't been able to run around to neighboring towns to check out old newspaper archives.

But 100+ years after the fact, I am only coming up with enough information to write plausible fiction on alternative solutions to the Borden murders. I'm convinced there were people out there who knew the truth. I don't think Lizzie did it. I don't think she paid to have it done. I do think she knew the murderer and felt guilty enough about her relationship to him (and I do mean HIM). I believe her relationship brought this person (and, perhaps, some of his cronies) to the house that day and a situation occurred which triggered an impulsive murder.

I am also not sure Abby died first.

One of these days, we're going to get together and speculate.

Regards, Cynthia

P.S. Thanks for rechecking the Third St. location--it's not far, but I originally thought it was closer.

Personally, I dying to find out more about the man Lizzie wrote to!!! Hope it's not the schoolteacher, Gardner.
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Post by xyjw »

This post brought me back to the "Why was Abby cleaning the guestroom" post. Lizzie testifies that Abby was all through with the cleaning and only had to leave pillow slips at the end of the bed. Your suggestion that Abby did not die first is interesting, what if she was chased and cornered into the guestroom? Maybe you are onto something there, what if Lizzie had some "guests" over who turned out to have deadly ulterior motives before she could stop them? Bridget may have been too busy to have seen them or too afraid of them to say anything.
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Post by mbhenty »

:smile:

Yes, that's great.......thanks loads nbcatlover for the response.

Wow, that's an interesting investigation. I have never taken the time to investigate, or look into the Rudy Cameron and Anthony connection. It's a whole different ball of twine, one which hinges heavily on Rudy and her story.

Makes sense that someone named Donahue lived at 104 Third, the heart of the Irish community.

There could be more than meets the eye in this investigation. Most of our inquiries begin with what we already know.......or think we know. Again, what we know has much to do with what was told to us, such as Abby was killed first, or that the maid was really upstairs.

I too have always believe that Lizzie had nothing to do with it, but she was very aware of who did it, and for what-ever reason, chose to keep her mouth shut.

Once again, thanks for the response. Hmmm! Interesting.

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Post by mbhenty »

:smile:

Yes, to believe anything Ruby Cameron said about Lizzie and Anthony one must do so with a palm full of pepper. Once we begin to believe it, we can fling the pepper into our eyes so it doesn't happen again.

Those who take the time to do a serious study of Ruby and some of her declarations will discover that the women was daft.

Didn't she claim to pal around with Golda Meir..? Or was it Mike the soldier.:lol:



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Post by nbcatlover »

Well, I found the Jewish Children's org (Hewbrew Home for Destitute Jewish Children & Hecht family) she said she worked for and found a photo that "might" be young Ruby at Campobello with Eleanor Roosevelt + Lorena Hickok from the FDR Presidential Museum & Archives. (They say she is an unidentified woman, probably hired help). Ruby was probably a little loopy, but she wasn't daft. The problem is that many of the schools she went to and orgs she worked for have been absorbed several times. I had written to Mass. General's School of Nursing about the records of an older Nursing School she had attended and spoke to people at Columbia University about schools they had absorbed as well as a university down south about her so-called doctorate and the programs they used to run.

I had even written and telephoned her attorney, trying to locate Ruby's research (which had been seen by Gramma) and seem to have been conveniently "thrown away" when her house was emptied.

My problem is that I lost a lot of my Ruby research when my old desktop computer shorted out and had a small electrical fire. I still have the machine but have had no luck retrieving info from the burnt hard drive (without spending mucho bucks). But I had found enough of a kernel of truth to, at least, keep an open mind. Lots of the old paper records of schools that have been absorbed are long gone and I had been reduced to searching captions on old photos, etc., to find pieces of Ruby. But I found enough not to label her as a liar. I believe her childhood memories may have part of the truth, but not necessarily the whole truth.

My late cousin had a similar problem (but fortunately had kept the letters from the schools which said he could use the new name). He could say he graduated from the University of Massachusetts now, but he really went the New Bedford Institute of Technology (which became SMIT, then SMTI, then SMU, and now UMass-Dartmouth) and that's in the day of computerized records.

I used to believe the David M. Anthony story, but I have a new alternate theory now. I think the police should have paid more attention to the anxious young man with the suit & hat seen in front of the Borden house, and to the team of horses in front of the house. Lizzie never tells the whole truth, but she doesn't actually lie.

I think the police should have paid more attention to the anxious young man with the suit & hat, and to the team of horses in front of the house.

I don't think William Davis did it either, but again, it is a theory that has a certain amount of plausibility. And I certainly don't believe a naked Lizzie was hacking away at her parents with an ax (but there's a porno movie in this scenario).

I wish I could afford to retire...I could spend entire weeks chasing my "clews."

For example, if men did enter the Borden barn searching for an intruder before the police began their examination and if they did search through bales of hay with pitchforks (as has been reported in some newspapers), how much dust would they have made and how long would it take for the dust to settle before a police officer could come along at 1:00 pm or so and truthfully say there was a layer of dust on the 2nd floor of the barn and no footprints to be seen. Common sense (and the dust in my house) says the policeman had flawed logic when he infers that the layer of dust proves Lizzie was never on the 2nd floor of the barn. It does not. My vote is for Brownie & me!!!

I believe Lizzie was in the barn...she just wasn't looking for a sinker (and she wasn't alone).

:lol:
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Post by mbhenty »

:smile:

Yes nbcatlover. That's a lot of work, a lot of research. Not only must you keep your keyboard clicking, There's plenty of footwork to discover the truth. My hat's off to you for your tenacious investigation. It's a practice that more writers should observe.

I to have always believed that Lizzie was outside in/by/around the barn. I believe the cops lied about the dust in the barn. I believe that there is a good chance that Lizzie was not alone in the yard or possibly making sure the coast was clear. Who knows?

This case is like a naked Barbie doll with an unending selection of outfits. Of course if you believe Lizzie did it, then all you have is a naked Barbie. Or Ken if you like. (Can you tell I had a sister with an extensive Barbie collection?)

I can't really say Everything Rudy said was wrong. I just believe she twisted the truth a little.........and in some cases a lot.

I choose not to believe her.

But to this I must add that, yes the cops should have investigated more closely those seen outside the house around the time of the crime. They did very little in this respect. And, it does not surprise me. I'm just surprise that when they arrested Lizzie they did not knock her to the floor with a knee to the back and kick her senseless on the ground.



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Post by mbhenty »

:smile:

Yes, one more thing: (awwh com-on mike, you post enough!)

As SteveS pointed out:

It is a revelation of sorts that Lizzie was suspected by the public on the day of the crime.

The fact that the word on the street was that Lizzie probably done it, and this was the belief on the day of the crime is big news. BIG NEWS.



This speaks to a lot of possibilities. That possibly there was a well known bellicose relationship between Lizzie and her father amongst the ones who knew her.

This could have swayed the police.

The surprising thing is how Charrita tells it...........with little surprise. (?)



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Post by SteveS. »

Thank you MB. That is the way I felt when I read it......that this is BIG NEWS! But no one else was commenting on it so I thought I was alone in this regard. A few small simple sentences can speak volumes and I think this diary entry speaks volumes for how the public must have percieved Lizzie and her relationship with her father and stepmother otherwise there would of been more shock and disbelief I think.
In memory of....Laddie Miller, Royal Nelson and Donald Stewart, Lizzie Borden's dogs. "Sleeping Awhile."
mbhenty
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Post by mbhenty »

:smile:

Yes, SteveS:

That Lizzie was suspected so quickly was probably not a surprise. Those who knew her must have had a strong hunch that Lizzie may have had something to do with it. What is surprising is how fast the suspicion made the rounds in town. And, why the papers did not report it earlier. The talk behind closed doors must have been fierce. Charrita having Borden blood must have had something to do with her finding our so quickly.

Also listed by the seller was the dairy post about the death of Brooks Borden, Spencer Borden's son, when the sleigh they were riding in was hit by a train on a high school outing. Three Boys were killed. One of them had his head almost cut off. Killed was also the son of Marcus Swift. Marcus Swift, a lawyer, lived in the green house that is just to the west of Maplecroft at the time. Swift was still living there around the time Lizzie died. With snow on the ground, the sight must have been one to rival the discovery of the dead Bordens.

Of course this post got miss placed somehow. How? you got me. But here it is.

We'll continue on with this subject on the other site.

At least you found it steveS :lol: :lol: :oops:



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