Please help buy a piece of Lizzie !

Mark A. · Post by **Mark A.** » Wed May 18, 2005 8:22 pm

O.K.,
Hear me out first then laugh at me and throw solid objects towards me later.

We have all probably seen this item offered on E-bay by now. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 47032&rd=1

It is a document signed by our beloved Ms. Lizzie not once, not twice, not even thrice but four times! Yes 4 times. Now as far as the authenticity of the item goes, I'm not sure but I truely believe that it is the real deal.
I have seen it on E-bay a few times and it has yet to have any bidders. I got to thinking, why? Why wouldn't anyone want to own a real piece of Lizzie or at least something she scribbled out in her own hand. I think that I figured out the reason why. Can you say $5,500.00! I see that as the main problem in the non-sale of this item. Who has a spare $5,500.00 lying around. Not me but I do have $ 22.54 I can spare. do you?
Yes, for the paltry sum of just $22.54 each, WE can own this historic doucument. WE as a motley crew of Lizzie buffs, nuts, believers, doubters, scholars. All of US on the forum can own a little piece of what drives us to check in on this site night after night. Now I did a little math and I do say little. I figure that as of now, there are 244 registered members on the forum. If we each kick in $22.54 we could all own a share in this exciting doucument. Think about it. How would you like to brag to your friends that you are the proud owner of a piece of Lizzie history? I know I would.
Now, before you start sending your checks to me, there are a few details to be worked out. The first thing that pops up in my mind is where would this valuable document reside? Well, guess what kids? I have that base covered. I would gladly keep it here in Fall River, Massachusetts. Now I know what your saying. Why would I kick in any money yet not get to have possesion of the item? Listen, here is what I propose to do. Any member who has paid their fair share of the document will get an 8X10 copy of the document to keep at thier place of abode. Think about it. Your own copy to keep!
Now, for those of you who act within the next 30 minutes, I will throw in an extra copy at no cost to you. How's them apples? That's right, 2 copies for $22.54. Most people could't get a promise from a registed politician for $22.54 but you my friend get a piece of history.
I think that We as a forum not only owe this to ourselves but to the whole Lizzie myth. Do I have any takers?
My $22.54 is on the table. Only $5477.46 to go.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Wed May 18, 2005 8:39 pm

Uh...The check's in the mail...LOL.

Tracy...

Fargo · Post by **Fargo** » Fri May 20, 2005 8:00 am

That gives me an idea, it was suggested before that we all chip in and buy Maplecroft, Well I have been doing some of that fancy ciphering. The asking price I think is somewhere around $380,000 if we paid that it would cost us $1557.37 each. Say we get it for 10% less that would be $342,000 total and $1401.63 each. Maybe we could even get it for less than that. If they knock off as much as 20% it would be $304,000 total and 1245.90 each.

We could charge people for tours of Maplecroft to help cover our investment.

Then we would have a place to keep the book with Lizzie's signatures.

We would also have a place to stay when we visit Fall River. Of course we would stay at the second street house as well, that goes without saying, its a must.

With the difference in the currency rate it would cost me about 20% more, but I'm game.

weber · Post by **weber** » Fri May 20, 2005 8:13 am

I would throw in for a share. We'd have to find someone to run it for us though so that would be additional expense. I would think for a $2000 (I like round numbers) share, it is doable.

Fargo, are you from Fargo? I only ask because I lived there for 30 years.

Fargo · Post by **Fargo** » Fri May 20, 2005 8:40 am

No I am not from Fargo. When I was in high school I used to have a 1966 Fargo truck, I loved the style of it, it was as if someone had designed it especially for me. That's how much I liked it. It had curved doors, an inverted rear window, headlight rings, the dashboard was nice too. I got rid of it because of the rust. I didn't think it would be that hard to find another one.

If I had known how hard it was going to be to find another one I would have kept the one I had and fixed it up, although it would have been a huge amount of work, I wish now that I had kept it.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Fri May 20, 2005 9:14 am

Well, Mark, I am happy to say that after a prolonged search I have come up with the requisite $22.54 for my share. No easy task, let me assure you.

Having but $19.00 to spare, leaving me $3.54 short, I was forced to dip into some alternative sources.

Some $3.00 of the shortage came from Kennedy half-dollars which I was under the mistaken impression would increase fantastically in value in my lifetime. There was also a 1976 quarter celebrating the country's 200th anniversary which I am also convinced is worth just that, a quarter.

The last 29 cents were found in that treasure-trove that all houses possess, beneath and behind the sofa cushions. At first the finding of a dime and then a quarter and I was over the needed amount.

Count me in as a partner.

Now to look in that other sofa .....

Edisto · Post by **Edisto** » Fri May 20, 2005 10:12 am

I contacted the seller of this document some time ago, because I had an interest in it. (I too believe it to be authentic, and I'm a dealer in anteeks.) It's been on the market for some time, and the seller (or his wife, if I recall correctly) told me via email that the owner needed to realize enough to cover his original cost. I got the feeling he had overpaid. At that time, Lizzie's signature was worth something like $1,000, and of course there are four of those. However, the other signatures (including poor Emma's) are worth just about zilch, and there's no good way of splitting up Lizzie's contributions so that they could be resold to recoup the investment. I certainly wouldn't advise anyone to do that! The seller seemed unwilling to negotiate, so I decided against pursuing it further. It really should be owned by the FRHS, IMHO.

I just reviewed the eBay listing once again...the opening bid is $5,500, and the Buy It Now price is $5,600, if I'm correct. But the descriptive text says the "reserve" is much higher than the opening bid. I hope the seller realizes that anybody with $5,600 can buy it for that amount, which isn't "much higher" than the opening bid. Also, the lister mentions offering the item because a "ghost cane" recently sold on eBay. This item has been periodically offered for quite some months. I'm not sure when that cane sold, but it sounds as if the seller isn't being totally forthcoming. I'd certainly be willing to chip in if a group of us wanted to purchase the ledger and donate it to the FRHS. There it would be safe and could be enjoyed by many Lizzie buffs. Even the ledger context and the other signatures would be meaningful in Fall River. I'd be willing to donate $200 to begin, and others could donate according to their ability.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri May 20, 2005 5:08 pm

"Lizzie’s Maplecroft up for sale"

DEBORAH ALLARD-BERNARDI, Herald News Staff Reporter 04/08/2003

"FALL RIVER -- Maplecroft, the home in which Lizzie Borden lived out the latter part of her life after being acquitted of one of the most infamous murder trials in U.S. history, will soon be going up for sale.

Robert J. Dube, the current owner of the Victorian at 306 French St., said he will be asking $725,000 for the one-family...."

Has the price dropped?

I had talked to the FRHS, in the past, about the signatures and they were interested in seeing Andrew's, if that is he (signed "atty").
Apparently, my impression was that Andrew Borden's signature is somewhat rare, but I may have misunderstood.

ghostcat1313 · Post by **ghostcat1313** » Fri May 20, 2005 6:05 pm

306 French St is not on the market yet, or should I say not in the multiple listing service. It also has not been listed for sale in the MLS for the last 3 years. Was owner doing a for sale by owner? I am a real estate appraiser and shocked by the low assessment ($305,600), especially zoned mixed residential and commercial. Is everthing under assessed that much in Fall River? Most towns, at least in my area on the north shore are keeping assessments at least 80%-100+% of market value. Town records list MapleCroft as 18 rooms, 10 bedrooms and 3,687 sq ft of living area. Wow, Lizzie took a big step up when she left second street.

Fargo · Post by **Fargo** » Fri May 20, 2005 6:07 pm

Sorry, I was going by the asessment value. I have to do some more Ciphering.

ghostcat1313 · Post by **ghostcat1313** » Fri May 20, 2005 6:29 pm

After taking a quick look, I answered my own question. Property is on the average under assessed by $200,000 in Fall River. One property on North Main St is listed at 1.1 million and assessed for $305,600, Wow!! and more shocking is new construction homes for $269,900. How is Fall River surviving without high taxes? Let me guess, are they not building new schools, renovating old schools, renovating or building new city offices, police, fire, libraries etc like most communities? Any one know?

FairhavenGuy · Post by **FairhavenGuy** » Fri May 20, 2005 8:40 pm

What's happening all over southeastern Massachusetts is that property values have been shooting up faster than they're being reassessed by the communities. Our home has just about doubled in value in the last five years. (One property in Fairhaven was purchased for $167,000 about seven years ago and sold last summer for $635,000. Not a bad return on the investment.) Lately asking prices for real estate around here have been considerably higher than assessed values.

ghostcat1313 · Post by **ghostcat1313** » Fri May 20, 2005 8:58 pm

Property values keep going up and up and up and still up, no downfall in sight. As for assessments, well, assessors and towns/city administrators/leaders not giving a hoot, they get paid whether they do their job or not. Higher assessments/higher taxes mean bad knews for mayors/administation........hey they may not get voted in again if they increase anything. Those that are running for office and try to show assessments are low and more tax money could help community, voted out. Honesty does not pay sometimes.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri May 20, 2005 11:53 pm

Here is an item, 2004- Maplecroft on the market and 14 rooms, $725,000.
http://www.heraldnews.com/site/news.cfm ... 9784&rfi=8

Edisto · Post by **Edisto** » Sat May 21, 2005 8:52 am

I may be wrong about this, as is often the case, but I believe we discussed the ledger when it was first listed on eBay, and it was thought that the Andrew Borden who signed it wasn't "our" Andrew. As I recall, the term "attorney" simply meant the person signing had the power (as in "power of attorney") to sign for another. I believe there were a number of other Andrew Bordens living in Fall River in the 1890s. Wasn't one of them a pallbearer at the funeral of Lizzie's father? I think he was a relative of Lizzie's. I'm surprised that Andrew J. Borden's signature would be rare, because he had his finger in so many economic pies that I would have thought he would have signed many documents. Possibly only a few have survived. The FRHS should have a handwriting specialist on tap and be able to compare the ledger signature with a sample of Andrew's known handwriting. That could probably be done initially on the Internet. If the signatures were indeed similar, it might then be necessary to see the actual item for validation. Incidentally, I'm not trying to rain on anybody's parade with regard to purchasing the ledger. As much as I would like to own it myself, I don't think it should belong to any private party, me included!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat May 21, 2005 4:25 pm

We did go on and on about Andrew's signature but never came to a consensus. We looked at his status as Mary Ann Borden's guardian of her estate, and speculated that he could sign "Atty" in that capacity.

I don't think we ever found an Andrew J. Borden, attorney.
Tho there was an Andrew J. Borden at the funeral, he was
"treasurer of Merchant Manufacturing Co..." (R-104).

I asked informally at the FRHS and was told that they didn't think they had any examples of Andrew's signature. I don't know what that means, or what that response implies and so I may be incorrect as to their meaning.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat May 21, 2005 4:30 pm

This was my understanding:
That when Andrew Borden retired from his business association with Almy, that Andrew's papers might have been stored in his attic or his cellar, which apparently was not uncommon.
Then, when the girls wanted to move, they might have thrown that stuff out.
The deeds we see at UMASSedu site are copied- "fair copies"- and so those have not his signature either.

diana · Post by **diana** » Sat May 21, 2005 5:46 pm

For what it's worth, here's the link to the last go-round we had on those e-bay signatures. The seller initiated it and participated in the discussion.

viewtopic.php?t=302&highlight=mary+ann

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat May 21, 2005 7:24 pm

Thanks Diana.
There's even a link within the link!

It seems the seller wanted Edisto!

Edisto · Post by **Edisto** » Sun May 22, 2005 9:32 am

Thanks, Diana!
I hadn't read that exchange from 2004, and it makes for very interesting reading. It does seem that anyone interested in the ledger thinks it's worth about the value of the four Lizzie signatures, or approximately $4,000. I don't sell autographs, except a few I've acquired incident to other buys, and the seller obviously has much more knowledge than I do about that area. One of the things I did was to research the value of autographs of other notorious personalities of the Victorian era who were private persons, rather than government officials, e. g. I do know that a personal letter of Lizzie's would have much more value than just a signature and that the value would depend on the contents of the letter. For example, there's a letter that Lizzie wrote to a female acquaintance that has "romantic" overtones and might point to a lesbian connection. For that reason, it's of enough interest to fetch a premium price. The "little bird" letter also gives us a glimpse of Lizzie's personality and has extra worth for that reason.
I agree with the seller that most if not all of the supposed Lizzie autographs sold on eBay are bogus. In some cases, the COAs that accompany them are weasel-worded and don't actually say the signature is Lizzie's. "From the library of Lizzie Borden" isn't a valid authentication, and "From the library at Maplecroft" is even less meaningful. Caveat emptor! The fact that there are lots of fakes around doesn't mean an authentic item is worth more. It just means the sham items are worth nothing.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun May 22, 2005 9:48 pm

Our member Augusta wrote an article for The Hatchet, Dec./Jan. 2004-2005 issue called "The True and Amazing Story of Lizzie's Gay Note." It explains the context of the letter, and to whom it was written. Very interesting.