"Merry Christmas Mama from Lizzie 1884"

[nbcatlover]

Have you seen this "Lizzie" plate before?

http://www.supernaught.com/crimefiles/topshelf.htm

[Kat]

Yes, thank you- we have seen it long ago.
But I am surprised that a newer member made no comment.
Here is the plate Cynthia is referring to.

The book with *signature* on that site has been in dispute a long time.
So has this plate.

[nbcatlover]

I wonder if the plate has a provenance; otherwise, I would suspect a fake. I believe Lizzie would have been about 19 in 1884.

[Kat]

It's pretty though.

[Harry]

I wonder if the plate has a provenance; otherwise, I would suspect a fake. I believe Lizzie would have been about 19 in 1884.

Purr-ington, Lizzie would have been 24 in 1884.

[nbcatlover]

Math's not my strong suit, Harry. But the older Lizzie is, the less probable the plate seems to me.

Unless this was some kind of coded message.

What's with the poor little dead tree apart from the group of healthy trees? Is Lizzie the little dead tree feeling shut out by her step-mother and her step-mother's family and friends. Very freudian.

And is that some kind of porcelain mark on the back?

[Fargo]

Has anyone heard of a Lizzie Christmas Ornament that was designed in recent years? I read it somewhere and someone comented that it was in poor taste. I thought that I read it in Rebello.

It's kind of hard to imagine a Lizzie figure as a Christmas Ornament unless it is without the axe. If it is with the axe then it could be a figure of Lizzie chopping down a Christmas tree.

[Harry]

Right you are, Fargo.

It took a little digging but it's on page 504+ in Rebello:

"The Fall River Art Association advertised a Lizzie Borden Christmas ornament, designed by artist Alan Iveson and sold for $15.00. Fall River Herald News, December 3, 1992

Opinion / Backtalk, "Borden Ornament in Poor Taste," Fall River Herald News, December 15, 1992"

Without having even seen it, I wouldn't want one as a Christmas decoration. As some people are collectors of Lizzie objects it might be a different story.

[Harry]

Math's not my strong suit, Harry. But the older Lizzie is, the less probable the plate seems to me.
--------
And is that some kind of porcelain mark on the back?

If it is indeed our Lizzie's plate and the year 1884 it falls into that period where we know very little about Lizzie's life. After she quit school and until 1885 when some metamorphosis occurred and Lizzie emerged to join the church and assume some sort of social life we know almost nothing.

Can't make out that marking on the back. Looks like an "E".

[nbcatlover]

I know I took some ceramics courses back in the 70s, but I didn't think they did that kind of stuff in Lizzie's day. It's very curious.

Wish I knew what the Lizzie ornament looked like. Can you imagine some poor lil Christmas tree, chopped down in its prime, and then covered with bows and axes. Very twisted.

[augusta]

I'm gonna vote "no" on that plate. It could have come from anywhere. It does look too new to be from 1884.

I would like to hear Edisto's opinion on it.

I've heard of a Lizzie Christmas ornament that was an axe. I thought that was tacky, until reading here equating that with chopping down a tree. Still ... I would know it was really supposed to be the Borden axe ...

[adam]

mY question would be why would Ernest Terry have had possession of it if it was a gift to Abby in 1884? Did Abby say: "No lizzie, you keep it." And then she did for the next 43 years? uh uh

I'd want to see the provenance.

[adam]

Looked at that link again and realize now 2 separate items. The Ernest Terry reference is on the book. The plate could be any "Lizzie", not THE Lizzie.

Again I'd want to see the provenance.

[Edisto]

I think I've commented on the plate before. I doubt that it has anything to do with "our" Lizzie. One thing I've noticed about this piece is that it really doesn't look like something from 1884. It looks more like 1984! The colors and the stylized snowflakes just don't look like a Victorian piece. I don't know whether there were "ceramics studios" in the 1880s, but I'm sure there were places where an already-fired piece could have personalizaiton applied, after which it might be fired a second (or third) time. China painting was a very common hobby with Victorian ladies. Another thing I noticed is the use of the term "Mama." Even when Lizzie wasn't calling Abby "Mrs. Borden," I believe she used the term "Mother," not "Mama." Many, many people had the name or nickname "Lizzie" in the second half of the nineteenth century, so there's no reason to think this has anything to do with Lizzie Borden. As to a provenance, many of those aren't worth the paper they're written on. The provenance itself has to be verified.

With regard to the book, we know that Lizzie had a stamp that she used to identify her books at Maplecroft. It seems unlikely that she would have written her name in pencil, which would be easy to erase if someone wanted to abscond with her book. Yes, she might have owned the book before moving to Maplecroft and acquiring the unique stamp, but I think Lizzie was probably the sort of person who would have erased that old pencil signature and applied her ritzy stamp to the books she wanted to keep. I don't see any real proof that Ernest Terry ever owned the item. The word of an unknown person isn't sufficient. It's certainly too high-priced to gamble on.

[nbcatlover]

Well, the Borden meat cleaver they show supposedly came from the Swansea farm. It is possible the book and plate came via the farm as well. I had not thought about refiring and existing plate, but my gut is still telling me 'fake'.

Thanks, Edisto.

[Kat]

I think this was at least 10 years ago, if not more.
Look at the price!
(I know how to spell "Lizzie," for that amount of money!)
Wonder what ever happened to this note?

pleaseclickonpic

[weber]

There is an autograph of a Lizzie B. available on ebay right now. The price is now at $86. Supposedly it is in an autograph book (along with a lot of other Bordens) of someone named Hattie. The autograph is dated 1879 I believe. Take a look. What do you think? It looks about "right" to me.

[adam]

I "wander" if this could be Hattie Borden Weld who wrote the fine Genealogy on THE Richard Borden?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Rare-1870s-Lizzie-B ... dZViewItem


As for the "Lizzie" signatures - maybe one of them did that plate to "Mamma". (smile)

[Susan]

Wonder what ever happened to this note?

Hmm, makes me wonder what pages Lizzie wished to tie to together with that ribbon? A manuscript of some kind? A scrap book?

[Edisto]

I think the autograph book currently offered on eBay has at least some claim to legitimacy, unlike most of the Lizzie signatures I see on eBay. If I'm reading correctly (and some of the signatures aren't easy to read) there are two possibilities for an authentic Lizzie autograph. One is the "Lizzie" page, and the other is the "L. A. Borden" page, since we know Lizzie used initials at least part of the time. I'd like to know the names of the others whose signatures appear in the book, because I don't see any names that I associate with Lizzie. There's a "Hattie Russell," but not "Alice Russell." If there's even one signature that ties the book to "our" Lizzie Borden, it would be very interesting. I also wonder about the handwriting. The capital letter "L" has a strange looped tail, and it looks as if the same sort of loop appears on the tail of Laura Borden's signature. Possiby this was a convention of handwriting at that time, but it doesn't seem to match later examples of Lizzie's writing. Of course, one's handwriting does change over time...At least this doesn't look like a careful tracing designed to deceive. Intriguing item.

[Kat]

Can anyone tell me under what circumstances someone would *autograph* with their town and state included?
Maybe on a trip?

[Edisto]

There might be many reasons why one would use a home town and its state. One could be traveling (as Kat mentioned), or attending some function away from home, or at the beach (or another type of resort) for the summer. One could be away at college or boarding school. One could even have friends from several different communities. I have a couple of Victorian autograph albums similar to this one, and some of those who signed also included their home towns. That's a help, because I can tell my books didn't come from New England, even though there are signatures in them that could be from Fall River. This autograph book is certainly a small size! Maybe it was specifically intended for travel, and maybe the owner was in Fall River only temporarily. I note that the price has leaped dramatically (now about $355), and there are several days left to go. Some people are evidently convinced it's authentic.

The only familiar name I see on the seller's list (besides the Borden names) is "Wilmarth." That was the name of Abraham Borden's second wife. (Abraham was Andrew's father.) That doesn't link the book to the notorious Lizzie, though. It's likely an old Massachusetts name like Borden and Durfee.

[stuartwsa]

Lizzie's signature looks like the real thing to me. The photo of the L.A. Borden signature is simply not clear enough to tell whether it is Lizzie's handwriting or not.
I'm very intrigued by the last photo. Is the name Hattie Russell, or Hattie Russell Macomber? Assuming it is the latter, could she be related to the Macomber mentioned in Lizzie's will?

[Kat]

Is that to "Dear Friend Hattie" from "Hattie Macomber?" (as you note). Meaning *Hattie to Hattie*?
Is Hattie short for something or were there lots of *Hatties* around back then?

[Elizabelle]

Hattie was a very popular name back in the 19th century. If you look at the Social Security Administration website, you will find 125 years worth of names. It's really interesting. From 1880 to 2005, you will find a list of 1,000 names for each year compiled into popularity. You can search specific years and specific names. You can choose from the top 10, 50, 100, 500, or 1,000. I always choose to look at the 1,000 list.

I'll give the link for the year 1880. Hattie was ranked as the 27th most popular name. http://www.ssa.gov/cgi-bin/popularnames.cgi

I love looking at this website for baby names!

My mother grew up across the street from an old spinster loner lady who lived in a shack with a thousand cats and carboard boxes covering all the window openings. That lady's name was Hattie Genereaux. The life-story of said Miss Hattie is almost as interesting as Lizzie Borden's!!!

Interesting name tidbits for 1892: Emma was ranked #7; Lizzie was ranked #80; Abigail was ranked #908; Bridget was ranked #465; Maggie was ranked #64; Andrew was ranked #32.

[Kat]

Wow, that is interesting- Thanks!

[theebmonique]

HOLY MOLY !! That autograph book just went for $898 on eBay !


Tracy...

[Edisto]

Actually, if one of the autographs can be authenticated as Lizzie's, the autograph book was probably a bargain! About five years ago, a price guide gave a value of $1,000 for a Lizzie Borden autograph. It's likely that it would be worth more now. However (BIG however), none of these autographs is authenticated as Lizzie's, and there certainly are some differences in the handwriting of the "Lizzie" signature and that of the real Lizzie Borden. Also, a signature from around 1892 would probably be more valuable than one so far removed in time from the murders. This autograph book does provide some context, but I couldn't see anything that linked it to "our" Lizzie, unfortunately. The only linkage was the name "Lizzie A. Borden" and/or "L. A. Borden." (Both signatures were in the book, which illustrates nicely the possibility that neither had anything to do with "the" Lizzie Borden.) I think the buyer is an antique dealer or a dealer in autographs, so perhaps it will go to market again soon. I would hope the buyer would try to get one of the signatures authenticated and link the book to Lizzie in some way besides the similaritiy in names.