Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Hass anyone noticed the Lizzie Borden DVD by Faye Musselman on Ebay? Is this by chance the Faye who was so "popular" a while back? The item # is 6443078677. I was fortunate that I didn't get burned as some folks did, but then after seeing so many complaints I stopped ordering from her.

Yes they are one and the same. I don't think I would bid on anything she had up for auction, but that's just me. I did however see this item up for auction and I would love to bid on it!


Item number: 4779963227

You can get almost all the items on this disk for free on the Lizzieandrewborden.com web site. Don't waste your money on things that you can get for free.

http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/207701 ... 1618QQrdZ1


OK, here's another, supposedly, signed Lizzie item. I have seen this come up several times in the past describing Lizzie as a "teacher," also around the same time frame, 1902. I was under the impression that Lizzie quit all activities, religious or otherwise after the murders. (Can never imagine her as a teacher, teaching my kid, what would she use, the strap, a ruler, an ax?) I don't think so.

"LIZZIE" was a very popular name in New England in the 19th century. I'm sure this is another Lizzie Borden. Not our Lizbeth......Though, I'm very surprise, since "SWAN" is one of the big boys out of New York. They compete with all the large auction houses, such as Christies and Sotheby's and usually check what they sell to make sure it's valid?

Anyone care to comment? Thank you........

pertaining to what I posted above:

I have a book Listing all the voters in Fall River, male and female in 1894. Under Women voters I did NOT find our Lizzie or Emma. (Very unlikely that she teach school but did not vote.......)

But I did find:

Abbie M Borden............17 Hall Street
Emma C Borden...........144 North Main Street
Emma E Borden............44 Fourth Street.

NO LIZZIE BORDENS............

Women won the right to vote in 1920 as their first Presidential election.
So what women voters are you referring to?

Yes Kat: perhaps I should do some homework about this list. What it is is a list of persons assessed for a Poll Tax. It lists by ward and Precenct all the voters by name, profession and address. At the end there is a list called female voters, which is much smaller than the male list.

I knew that women did not vote untill much later, but not sure how that worked under the Poll Tax Laws. Of course these were eventually outlawed. It discriminated against the poor.

Why the list of women is in there,,,,,,,,,I don't know?
But, if you like Kat I can send you a photo of the title page, and one from the text, or perhaps post it, if anyone else is interested. Thanks.

POLL TAX 1894 FALL RIVER, MA

Any idea on the ebay, "Live Swan Galleries" auction item of Lizzie's signature Kat?

The 1920 date is the year the Constitution was amended to allow women to vote in all states. Several states had granted women the right to vote earlier than that.

I found this paragraph:

"Several of the states and territories (with Wyoming first, 1869) granted suffrage to the women within their borders; when in 1913 there were 12 of these, the National Woman's party, under the leadership of Alice Paul, Lucy Burns, and others, resolved to use the voting power of the enfranchised women to force a suffrage resolution through Congress and secure ratification from the state legislatures. In 1920 the Nineteenth Amendment to the Constitution granted nation-wide suffrage to women."

http://www.answers.com/topic/women-s-suffrage

Also this on Massachusetts:

"In 1879, Massachusetts women won the right to vote in school committee elections, but that would be the extent of their enfranchisement until the passage of the Nineteenth Amendment in 1920."

http://www.massmoments.org/moment.cfm?mid=316

Yes Harry. Thanks. Makes sense. Good way to collect revenue for growing cities such as Fall River. What is your thought on the Lizzie signature auction being held by Swan Galleries over ebay?

I would have to say no on that being a Lizzie document for several reasons.

Nowhere that I know of did she sign her name "Miss Lizzie Borden" and every signature of hers I've seen always included her middle initial.

Lizzie was not a teacher of Sunday school in 1902. I remember reading she gave up teaching Sunday school even before the murders when she returned from her trip to Europe in 1890.

I think by 1903 she was calling herself "Lizbeth" but I'm not sure of that without digging into the archives. Kat, Diana or someone else would know for sure the approx. date.

Yes Harry: I agree fully.

This is not the first time an item has been advertise on Ebay for bid with this same scenario. Perhaps this is the same item? I think it was on about 6 months ago. I remember the was signed, "Lizzie Borden" also, and that she was a teacher, and it was dated as this item is, after 1900. If my memory serves me well, I think it was 1910.

I'm just surprize that it is listed with Swan Auctioneers though. Buyer beware........for sure, for sure on this one. Thanks Harry...

Good memory, Mike.

I dug into the archives and we had a discussion on this item way back in November 2004. Stuartwsa found it. The page on auction now was apparently part of a book back then that was going for $7,000.

William pointed out the same things we posted here. See this thread:

viewtopic.php?p=6016#6016

At http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Galleries ... ifacts.htm Michael, you'll find a pretty clear scan of a handwritten letter from Lizzie re: a noisy bird, dated from French Street, late May...1900 that looks like.

Thanks Doug, Harry very interesting.

I remember going to bookshows and seeing the same book I was interested in the year before on the same dealer's shelf.

Second time around you would think they would lower their price, nope. Some dealer will not budge.

Like we may give the advice not to purchase, until they drop their price, they have the same idea, that is, if you wait long enough someone will Pay.

Rebello, 269:

Rumors

"Bordens Lived West / Lizzie Was a School Teacher and Objected to Second Marriage," New Bedford Daily Mercury, Friday, June 29, 1893: 2.

It was erroneously reported that Lizzie lived on a farm in Glenwood Mills County, Iowa, just across the river from Omaha, Nebraska, from 1870 to 1883. It was at this time that Andrew married Abby, according to this report.

Malvern Leader, IA, June 29, 1893.

"The Nonpareil [at Council Bluffs], is authority for the statement that Lizzie Borden, who was tried and acquitted of the murder of her father and stepmother at Fall River, Mass., and whose trial created such widespread interest, was for some years a resident of Mills County, living with her parents near Glenwood. It was while living in this county that the murdered couple were married. Lizzie was a school teacher and taught in several districts near Glenwood."

Red Oak Sun, IA, June 30, 1893.

"Lizzie Borden, of Fall River, Mass., who was recently tried for the murder of her father and step-mother and declared by the jury not guilty, used to live near Glenwood and taught school in Mills County. Her father and her step-mother were married in Mills County.”

"Hastings,"' Malvern Leader, IA, July 6, 1893.

"It is said by those who are in position to know that it is a mistake in regard to Miss Lizzie Borden or her father ever living in Mills County, as published in the Council Bluffs papers. It must have been some other family of that name."

I'm surprised that a reputable auction gallery wouldn't have been more careful about provenance, e. g., the statement that Lizzie was a "teacher" (type of teacher not specified). The only thing is...it does look a bit like her handwriting, doesn't it? Could it be a contrived fake? Admittedly, it's so faded that it's pretty difficult to read.

Hi Edisto!!

Hey you guys, why can't I see where it says "Fall River" as claimed in the sale?

Har, according to Rebello, Lizzie first listed herself as "Lizbeth" in Fall River City Directory in 1905. (R 316).

CAVEAT EMPTOR - buyer beware.
Has any Questioned Document Examiner provided a provenance?

Here's another Ebay alert.......

Todd Lunday's booklet is being offered for sale on Ebay, starting bid $ 19.99, fair price.

This little item, being the King Philip Publishing Reprint, has become sort of scarce. It surprises me, but few copies of this reprint come up for sale.

The "abe" lists only one copy, being sold out of the UK for $ 65.00.

Worth bidding on if you would like a copy. Finding an original is even more rare than finding an original Porter. I have never seen an original Todd Lunday, though I know someone who has 2. Will try to squeeze him to sell me one in the future.
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http://cgi.ebay.com/Fall-River-MA-Borde ... dZViewItem

YOU NEED TO CHECK THIS EBAY ITEM OUT, IT'S WORTH A CHUCKLE. ALSO LOOK UP HER OTHER FUNNY PHOTOS.


http://cgi.ebay.com/Gothic-LIZZIE-BORDE ... dZViewItem

Yes Kat, Thanks for the kudos. I'll take my bow now.

Quote mbhenty wrote

Finding an original is even more rare than finding an original Porter. I have never seen an original Todd Lunday, though I know someone who has 2. Will try to squeeze him to sell me one in the future.

Micheal do you know if the reprinted copies of Lunday's are like the originals? In the way that the reprinted Porter's are like the originals? Same size, colour, etc.

INTERESTING LETTER.
http://cgi.ebay.com/So-Chatham-MA-Nov-1 ... dZViewItem

Yes Fargo:

I have never seen one of Lunday's little books. But I know someone who has 2 orginals. Next time I see him I will try to talk him into selling me one. My friend says that the Flynn copy is exact to the original, just like the Edwin Porter book.

Flynn did a wonderful job with the Porter book. If you had an old copy of Porter's book in new condition you almost could not tell them apart. The only big difference between both books is the original Porter has flowered end papers, where the Flynn copy has a plain light green.

A new publication of Porter's book was just released last month. It is published by The Lawbook Exchange of New Jersey. They are selling it for 106 dollars.

Flynn published only 1000 copies of his book.

It would be interesting to know how many copies are being published by the Lawbook Exchange.

Rarity is the determining factor. If the Exchange publishes more than a 1000 books, they will not be as valuable as the Flynn facsimile on the future market.

Yes William, that would be interesting.

But you know, the publishing world has been undergoing some drastic changes in the past five or six years.

There are many "Publish on Demand" publishers in the fray now. With computers and computerized Printing equipment they can publish just a couple of copies and make it profitable. So, no set number of books are stamped out. No waste. They "build" the book as the orders come in.

But I heard rumors about Flynn's Porter's book at a bookshow back in the early 90s. Not sure if it is true? But let me ask this.

IF ANYONE OWNS A PORTER BOOK, CHECK THE REVERSE SIDE OF THE BOOK'S TITLE PAGE. AT THE BOTTOM IT SHOULD READ "this edition is limited to one thousand copies" BACK THEN I HEARD THAT EXTRA COPIES WERE PRINTED WITHOUT THIS ACKNOWLEDGMENT.

Remember this. The book states that it is limited to 1000 copies. This publication should have been numbered. Who is to say there are not 1200 copies. Not a big deal, since the number is so large, but truth in publishing should count for something.

Good grief! Somebody could put Boy George in an upswept hairdo, Victorian dress and 19th century frame and they'd say it was Lizzie Borden. Don't these people have eyes?

Except for the hair, ears, eyes, nose and mouth it looks like her.

I was going to post something about the picture too, but I see that Harry and Angel have it well covered.


Tracy...

Missed that one Eric. Thanks.

You know, sometimes these little finds turn out to be valued treasures in the world of antiquities. Espeicially if a real oil painted by someone famous. Would need to do a little research. One would need to be of some wealth to afford such a painting, even in this small size. Interesting.

Looks just slightly like Lizzie. Lizzie is much prettier.

(Hey! Maybe it's Billy Borden's sister?)

Well, those who know my habits, know I can't resist.

Wooee Kat: She really looks like a man now. If you were to place her in a suit she would really look like a guy. Cool

I have a file stored on my computer called "E-Bay Lizzies" who all have mustaches which I painted on.

This latest eLizzie appears as if she could possibly be an ancestor of one Mr. Lyle Lovett.





Tracy...

Now, if we just dressed him up in Victorian Clothes............

Perfect, Hey?

We'll make a mint on eBay.

It just keeps getting better !!

http://cgi.ebay.com/Lizzie-Borden-inspi ... dZViewItem

Funny card Eric. I think it was on last year. It looks more like Abby than Lizzie, I think?

Yes Eric, very interesting..............

Please forgive for asking again.........

Below is a photo of the reverse of the title page of Flynns Book. (Edwin Porter, a facsimile.) There are two title pages. The first is the title page for Flynn's specific reprint. After that there is a "Forward" page, then the title page from Porters book. Of course we are concern with the reverse side of the "First" one, "Flynn's title page. If you look at the photo, about 3/4 of the way down, you can see where it says, "This edition is limited to one thousand copies."

Am I correct to assume that your copy does not display this line?
Thanks Eric.

(Sorry, but I had trouble adding attachment. I added it in my next post below. Again, forgive my computer ignorance, don't know how to shrink photo, so if you click on it it will down load a "Monster copy.")

SORRY, HAD TROUBLE SENDING ATTACHMENT, WHAT ELSE IS NEW? CHECK NARRATIVE ABOVE THAT GOES WITH THIS PHOTO.

Here is a smaller page, if you don't mind?
This is mbhenty's copy of Porter reprinted by Flynn.

[/img]


Hope this works.....here is a pic of my copy

I am going to try this again......

Kat to the rescue. Thanks for the help Kat..

Yes, Photo is a great help Eric. Thank you so much. I wanted to see it for myself, I'll tell you why.

Back in the late 80s or early 90s I was at a bookshow and approached Mr Flynn's booth. I noticed that he had a few copies of Porter's book on his shelf.

Approaching Mr Flynn I said to him that I was under the impression that he had SOLD OUT of the Porter book. He then informed me that it was not the same book.

I pulled it off the shelf, thumb thru it and found it to be exact. I then told him that it was the same exact book. "No it's not, he said, this issue does not say limited to 1000 copies." Of course I was shocked. I placed the book back on the shelf and never went to the page where the declaration of the editions printed was, the rear of the title page.

All these years I have checked out Porter books but have never seen one that did not have the declaration of the 1000 copies, so I thought that perhaps Mr. Flynn was kidding. But now I know for sure. Thanks Eric.

I find this an unethical and unscupulous practice. All that needed be done was to change something about the book, it's color, book size, cover cloth etc. Once that is done it becomes a different issue and edition. You can not just remove a line and call it a diffferent edition. It's just not right. But this practice is more common than we think. In my article in the Hatchet I talk about such a practice with Samuels book "The girl in the house of hate" I find it unfortunate.

But all this being said ERIC, it does not take away from the value of your book since there was such a large number printed. If it was limited to 200 copies it would be different. But you know in 100 years or so your copy my be the sort for issue and of more value than the Limited one. It will probably be seen as an error in printing, which adds value to the book in some cases.

So we can safely say that Mr Flynn's copy of Porter book is not limited to 1000 copies. Probably a couple of hundred more out there.
THANKS ERIC, THANKS KAT. Learn something everyday and clears a long time issue for me.

Wow.....that is very interesting!!! I never thought that any one elses had the 1000 copies statement, as I had only ever look at my own. Unfortunately my copy is signed by what I would guess to be the original owner. It says John T. Osander 1985/1893.

Guess what? I have my library's edition of Porter at my side, and it too is missing the "limited to 1,000 copies" proviso. Like Eric's it is identical to yours in all other respects. I suspect that demand exceeded the 1,000 copies, but to continue calling it first facsimile edition is misleading. In this case, it's just a library copy in very poor condition, but some people out there may have been seriously skewered here!

--Lyddie