The Knowlton Papers

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 11:20 pm

There is a used copy of The Knowlton Papers on Abe books right now. They are asking over $400 for it. It isn't worth it. I would suggest that no one purchase it - boycott it. These 'collectors' are ripping us off big time.
If they cannot sell it for that much, the price will eventually go down.
And wait, and keep asking around. One will turn up eventually. This is horrible.

nbcatlover · Post by **nbcatlover** » Fri Oct 28, 2005 3:43 pm

I agree, Augusta. There have been several on ebay and once the price starts going over $70-$75 dollars, I'll just let it pass. If I need to know something from the papers that badly, I have everyone in the Forum to ask.

These are not Knowlton's hand-written notes. Maybe it's time for the FR Historical Society to reprint them and make some more $$$.

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 1:26 pm

Today there are two copies of The Knowlton Papers for sale at Abe Books.com. One seller is asking $325; the other $475. If no one buys these, they'll have to lower the price. I got mine for $25 when I posted here that I was looking for a copy. A seller emailed me.

Nancy · Post by **Nancy** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 4:54 pm

I think you were pretty darn Lucky Augusta to get
it for 25 but shouldn't get anyone's hopes up for that price.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 6:35 pm

Hey...there's always hope. It would be neato for someone to get a copy for that price.

Tracy...

Edisto · Post by **Edisto** » Tue Nov 29, 2005 3:03 pm

It certainly would be nice if the FRHS would reissue it in paperback. The original hardback version was almost nicer than anyone needs, what with the gilt edges on the pages! I don't know about the rest of you, but I make sure my Lizzie books get very hard wear, and all I ask is that they hold together. It's a good book to have, but not good enough to spend plus or minus $400 for it.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Nov 29, 2005 6:29 pm

If you travel, always check big city bookstores. Stef found one in NYC for 20 bucks.

Augusta is all about telling people when books are way overpriced and also she's into finding out for sure how rare a book might be.
Her point is that these so-and-sos drive the price up for no good reason.
Before paying anything high priced like that- Augusta likes to warn people to do their homework. She and I have had many conversations on just this subject.

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 12:40 am

Yes, I was extremely lucky to get my Knowlton Papers for $25. I rather doubt that an offer like that would come again, but like Tracie says, there is always hope. I was not suggesting anyone wait for a $25 deal.

Sometimes book sellers try to take advantage of a special interest group, such as we are. They cannot wait until the first editions sell out, and they will rush to proclaim it 'out of print' - at times when it is not.

Today I read on the Forum that the Rehak book is being sold by someone for over $100. That's taking advantage of that situation. It may be going into print again.

We can do something about this, if we choose to. By not buying from overpriced sellers, and by publicizing this and exposing it for how wrong it is, we can control the market to a degree.

One book that is starting to concern me is the reprinted "Fall River Tragedy" by Porter, reprinted by Bob Flynn. Originally it sold for I think $32.50 (?). It took several years for the edition to sell out. I went to the Leary Press 4 years after it came out, and they had plenty of them. I bought my copy there at the publisher's price. People are starting to sell them for sometimes over-inflated prices. As Kat pointed out in the thread about Porter's book, it is on Stef's website for no charge at all.

Rebello's book is probably just about sold out, if it isn't already. I think that book will be commanding high re-sale prices, and in this case it is deserved. To a degree. I would watch for over-inflated prices of that in the near future.

One thing that is helpful is checking the used book sources that are out there (Abe Books.com; Amazon's "used" books offered; eBay; Half.com; and others.). Keeping an eye on prices for a while from different sources for a book you want is a good idea. Remember that the FRHS and the B & B sell books, too. Bristol Community College has books for sale, also. A phone call or note could find you a book you want at a reasonable price from any of the last three.

Buying a Lizzie book when it first comes out is the best thing, if you can.

Remember, or try to find out, what the original price of the book was.

Hoffman's "Yesterday in Old Fall River" is a good reference book. I think it originally went for about $17. Now it's about $26, and still worth it. That would be a wise purchase now, in case it should go up more.

Some Lizzie books decrease in value. Some are plentiful even if they are out of print.

Just because someone is selling a copy of something for $300 or $400, does not mean that is the going rate. If you've communicated with some of these sellers, some of them don't know what they are talking about - they don't even know what the book is. And there are others who simply follow along charging the same - or more. Sometimes sellers keep raising the price - at one time copies of "The Proceedings" going for a thousand dollars and up.

It is grossly unfair to us Bordenites. We are sometimes treated like sitting ducks. The Borden re-sale trade is frightening, because if we buy at those prices those (and higher ones) will be the going rate. (I'm not talking about new souvenirs like all the cute t-shirts and stuff.) If a person doesn't mind shelling out that much, of course that's their business. But I do urge persons, if they can, to hold off on cut-throat prices. [/i]

Fargo · Post by **Fargo** » Thu Dec 08, 2005 8:48 am

I paid about $145 for my copy of the Knowlton papers, I was reluctant to go that high but I wanted it. My local book store told me there was a copy of the preceedings book available for $200, I declined it. Then I bought a copy of it from Bristol college for $50. I bought my Rebello at the B and B, I am very glad that I did.

One book that I cannot figure out is Lizzie Borden and the mysterious axe, it is listed for $100 and it is only a 15 page book. I don't have it and I have never seen it but how can it cost so much unless they never printed many of them. That could be the same thing for the Knowlton papers mabe they never printed that many.

Edisto · Post by **Edisto** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 10:00 am

My Borden lilbrary is currently somewhat fragmented, because I'm still in the process of moving it from one floor to another. As I recall, "The Mysterious Axe" is Bob Flynn's little pamphlet about the hatchet that was found on the roof of Crowe's barn during the trial in 1893. The informatiion in it is a side issue and not crucial to understanding the case. (I've always believed the hatchet found on the roof had nothing to do with the murders, although the timing of its discovery is certainly interesting. It was found just as the prosecution finished presenting its witnesses.) I believe I got my copy directly from Flynn Books several years ago. I certainly didn't pay anything like $100 for it.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:49 pm

That's a good point that you got it from Flynn.
I think someone who still wanted Flynn books might contact him directly.

Nancy · Post by **Nancy** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 5:03 pm

Hate to brag but I have everything Lizzie, yet now
Real Estate is slow and the mortgage has to be paid, Damn I'm almost ready to sell it all, ouch

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 5:59 am

Fargo - That's an okay price for the Knowlton Papers. When it gets to be three hundred and four hundred dollars, that's ridiculous.

Yes, that is strange that that little booklet was going for so much. Edisto summed it up well.

Mr. Flynn is a good person to ask about prices. He can perhaps give you an honest and accurate price range on something.

Two hundred for The Proceedings! It is a good book, but since its published price was so much lower, it is terribly inflated. Good for you, getting it for $50 at Bristol College!

Fargo · Post by **Fargo** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 6:50 am

There is a listing on e-bay for Murial Arnolds book Lizzie Borden The Hands of Time for $49.95 You can buy it from Murial for $20.00.

There is also a listing for a piece of brick from Lizzie's historic property in Rhode Island. I didn't know that Lizzie had any property in Rhode Island.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 4:34 pm

"Lizzie Borden took an AX and gave her mother 40 wacks... but the ax is now in the museum. However you can have an actual white brick removed from an out building during recent construction on her property in Fall River. We were able to get several from a local Tiverton RI resident and they are available for first come highest bid. Great gift for your favorite ax murderer fan.... blood not included."--E-bay seller's spiel.

--It sounds like they got these thru the demolition of the Leary Press. "White brick," was the phrase which got my attention.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 5:00 pm

Yes Kat, you are correct. The eBay brick is not from any Rhode Island property, however the current seller did acquire it from someone in R.I., per their ad. If it is the same brick that was offered up recently, it is from the Leary Press demolition. I contacted that seller and they verified it was in fact from Leary.

http://cgi.ebay.com/White-brick-from-Li ... dZViewItem

Tracy...

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 5:33 pm

Whew! So my actual red brick from the Borden house chimney is still worth more than that $1 on that Leary debris.

Fargo · Post by **Fargo** » Sat Dec 17, 2005 8:25 am

Does anyone have pictures of both the House and the Leary bricks for a comparison?

I checked the item on e-bay again, it has since been changed for when I looked at it before it said that the brick was from Lizzie's property in Rhode Island. Now it says that it's from Lizzie's propery in Fall River. I guess they realized the mistake and corrected it.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Sat Dec 17, 2005 8:45 am

I don't know about the particular brick on EBay, but I do remember when being in the cellar that the walls, including bricks, were whitewashed. Also that some of those walls were partially demolished. I don't know who took this photo (actually a part of a larger photo) but it clearly shows the whitewashed bricks in the cellar.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sat Dec 17, 2005 10:27 am

Harry @ Sat Dec 17, 2005 8:45 am wrote:I don't know about the particular brick on EBay, but I do remember when being in the cellar that the walls, including bricks, were whitewashed. Also that some of those walls were partially demolished. I don't know who took this photo (actually a part of a larger photo) but it clearly shows the whitewashed bricks in the cellar.

This looks like one of my photographs of the basement,slightly cropped.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sat Dec 17, 2005 10:32 am

I decided to fight with my scanner yet again to post the full picture. If you click on the picture, it will get very big. ( Again I don't know why it does this.)

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Sat Dec 17, 2005 11:02 am

Yes, Melissa, that's the entire photo. As I said I could not remember the source so I didn't want to show the whole photo. It's a good photo and clearly shows the white bricks with several breaks in the edge of the frame where bricks were.

I'll mark my files for future reference. I literally have hundreds of photos accumulated over the years from many sources and unfortuneately not marked as to their source.

Fargo · Post by **Fargo** » Sat Dec 17, 2005 11:15 am

I can't tell from the picture. Does that mean that the bricks are white all the way through or that they are just painted white on the outside?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Dec 17, 2005 1:42 pm

I thought about the whitewashed bricks from inside when I read the seller's description, and I was gad they were truthful that their item was white *brick* rubble.

I don't know what the Leary Press was made of, but if it's white, it might be cement pieces they have?
You can look at pctures of what was torn down and it looks white.

I've not heard of anyone claiming to have a whitewashed brick from the chimney walls in the cellar- which are whitish. My *red* brick was given me in the cellar but was made clear it was from the chimney on the roof when renovations had been made to it in the past.

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 4:19 pm

Several years back, they were selling bricks from the murder house. It seems to me they were asking a lot for one, like $150 (?). Maybe it was $50. I think it was advertised in the older LBQ's. The B & B might have been selling them.

Fargo · Post by **Fargo** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 4:38 pm

In October of 2000 I first went on my sister's computer got on the internet for the first time. (my sister lives in a different city and that was my first and last time on the internet for awhile)

I found the B and B website, they had bricks from the chimney listed for $100. There were no pictures of any of the gifts. They had a page with a list of the gifts and their discriptions. It was a good size list though. Like the website now has pictures of some of the gifts but many of the gifts available are not shown.

They said that there were still tickets available for the halloween party. I was thinking if only I could attend. At that time I had never been there before. I had seen many of the pictures of the house that were taken around 1892 and I knew the layout of the house from the diagrams I had seen. But I had never seen any modern pictures of the house. The pictures from about 1892 were the only pictures I had ever seen of it. I kept trying to imagine what it would look like in modern times.

.

Fargo · Post by **Fargo** » Fri Dec 23, 2005 9:34 pm

There are 11 proceedings books for sale at Amazon. The first 2 are $15.98 and $15.99. I don't know if I have ever seen them for that low of a price. The highest one is going for $149.

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Fri Dec 23, 2005 9:37 pm

I got my Proceedings for the best price ever!

FREE!

It was a gift to me from someone who I love very much, even if she send slurpy pm's.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Dec 23, 2005 11:39 pm

What do you all think of the book?
What's your favorite article?

Nancy · Post by **Nancy** » Sat Dec 24, 2005 4:37 pm

it seems at that time it was all about the incest
thing, the articles and lectures were geared at that
and it was a turn-off. I always thought Lizzie was too strong and stubborn to ever have put
up with that kind of thing.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Dec 24, 2005 10:37 pm

Well, the first 3 articles certainly are based on an incest theory.
Section 1
PSYCHOLOGICAL AND WOMEN'S ISSUES
"Lizzie, Violator Or Victim"- M. Judge Grenier, 13.

"Was Lizzie Borden The Victim Of Incest?"- M. Eileen McNamara, M.D., 39.

"Lizzie Borden, Anxious Attachment And Forty Whacks: A Systemic Explorartion Of Incest And Parricide"- Stephen W. Kane, Ph.D., 47.

Book published 1993 thru Brstol Community College.

Was the Conference that polarized toward incest issues?

My favorite articles are :
"The Hip-Bath Collection: How It Influenced the Legend of Lizzie Borden," Barbara Ashton, 211
and
"They Would Like To Have Been Cultured Girls: An Analysis Of The Testimony Of Alice Russell During The Prosecution Of Lizzie Borden"- Robert T. Johnson, Jr., 225.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Sat Dec 24, 2005 10:58 pm

In light of another thread, I am reading/re-reading the Legal and Forensic section.

Tracy...

sguthmann · Post by **sguthmann** » Mon Jan 02, 2006 9:43 pm

i am looking for a reasonably priced copy of the Knowlton Papers...if anyone comes across such a instance, please PM me! I'd be forever grateful!

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 12:46 am

Keep you eyes WIDE open on eBay. Sometimes you can get a sweet deal there. Also sign up for the notification service with the different booksearch companies like Alibris.com, bookfinder.com, and abebooks.com. I do wish you the best of luck. I SO know what it's like to be ever on the hunt for that book...whew.

Tracy...

Eric · Post by **Eric** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 3:27 pm

I have been searching for a good deal on the Knowlton papers as well for some time now and I just got an INCREDIBLE deal. I check bookfinder.com a weekly to see if any new books have popped up but it has been the same ol' same ol' $299-400 range. Well last weekend I searched by the books ISBN number, and much to my suprise, a copy of the Knowelton Papers came up and the price was listed at $31 . I thought for sure this was a mistake, but I paid for it the second I saw it thinking I would receive the email saying that it was a typo or something. Well today my book arrived in all of its gilded edge glory. My receipt with shipping is $37.95. I paid more for my Porter book and about the samefor my proceedings! Good luck on you searches , I just wanted to give everyone a little hope that there are still some good finds out there.

Fargo · Post by **Fargo** » Thu Feb 09, 2006 1:15 pm

Okay lets have it, tell us where you got the Golden Horseshoes.

Eric · Post by **Eric** » Thu Feb 09, 2006 5:43 pm

From boofinder.com it linked me to Abebooks.com where the book was listed by Elliott Bay Book Co. in Seattle WA............ Believe me I am still in shock that it is actually in my posession.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Thu Feb 09, 2006 7:49 pm

Tony...the magic bean is persistence. I speak from experience. I will keep my eyes open for you. I SO understand how frustrating the search can be.

Tracy...

Fargo · Post by **Fargo** » Fri Feb 10, 2006 8:56 am

Thanks for the information Eric. I kind of meant that as a joke as to say where did you get your good luck?

Thanks for the offer Tracey, I have a copy of Knowlton though. I wish it had a dust jacket. The dust jackets don't last as long as the books so finding someone that has an extra one is unlikely. I can't copy someone elses because that would go against the copywrite laws.

I just got a copy of Lillian De La Torre's 1948 play Goodbye Miss Lizzie Borden. I guess it's a hard find, it took me awhile to find it.

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 1:53 pm

There are two Knowlton Papers books on Amazon today. One is going for $365; the other for $475. It's ridiculous. If we don't buy, the price will have to come down sooner or later.

Fargo · Post by **Fargo** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 2:30 pm

Do you know what the original price was new and how many were printed? It's something I have wondered about. Although no matter what, second hand copies are not worth three or four hundred dollars.

Fargo · Post by **Fargo** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 12:53 am

There is a copy of the Knowlton papers on ebay right now, the starting bid is $75

sguthmann · Post by **sguthmann** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 12:02 am

still looking for a copy of this book...anyone seen/heard/know of any copies up for sale recently that were priced in the realm of reality??

sguthmann · Post by **sguthmann** » Sun Dec 31, 2006 11:17 pm

Still looking for that elusive "Knowlton Papers" copy that isn't $400-600. Help?

Stefani · Post by **Stefani** » Sun Dec 31, 2006 11:24 pm

The Fall River Historical Society has a copy for $350, last I asked. They bought it for resale, not selling one of their own copies. They are closed now, so if you want it at that price, you must write them snail mail. They will be there after the first of the year, but not open for business.

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Tue Jan 02, 2007 12:00 pm

sguthmann @ Mon Jan 01, 2007 12:17 am wrote:Still looking for that elusive "Knowlton Papers" copy that isn't $400-600. Help?

If that book is in public domain (government publication that is not restricted) then anyone can scan the pages and put it on a computer. IMO

sguthmann · Post by **sguthmann** » Tue Jan 02, 2007 11:51 pm

Stefani @ Sun Dec 31, 2006 10:24 pm wrote:The Fall River Historical Society has a copy for $350, last I asked. They bought it for resale, not selling one of their own copies. They are closed now, so if you want it at that price, you must write them snail mail. They will be there after the first of the year, but not open for business.

Thank you, Stefani. That's still a bit steep for my blood, but I'll consider it. I'm afraid if I keep waiting to get a copy, the prices will just keep going up. Of course, maybe I'll get lucky in the meantime and some soul, not realising what they have, will be kind enough to list on Ebay or something for a more reasonable price.

RayS, I understand the book is over 550 pages in length! All I can say is godbless any person who would even think of undertaking such a scanning project!

Eric · Post by **Eric** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 9:19 pm

On eBay right now. Starting bid $9.95 + $8.00 S/H

http://cgi.ebay.com/COMMONWEALTH-OF-MAS ... dZViewItem

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 9:46 pm

Eric @ Mon Jan 29, 2007 7:19 pm wrote:On eBay right now. Starting bid $9.95 + $8.00 S/H

http://cgi.ebay.com/COMMONWEALTH-OF-MAS ... dZViewItem

This seller does not have a great reputation with this forum. I know some may have had good dealings with this seller, but several of us have had quite the OPPOSITE. Part of my bad experience was over this very book. I urge anyone who chooses to deal with this seller, to use caution.

Tracy...

Nadzieja · Post by **Nadzieja** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:44 pm

Hi, I'm still scanning all the book dealers for The Knowlton Papers also. If I ever get my hands on one I'll probably insure it. I can't believe they are selling for so high the cost. Is the FRHS ever going to reprint it? Also I'm looking for Leonard Rebello's book Lizzie Borden Past & Present. Thats another book I would love to someday call my own.

Lizzie Borden Society Forum

The Knowlton Papers

The Knowlton Papers

Keep the faith !