Is this Lizzie?

Buy, Sell, Trade or just discuss Lizzie-related Items Here!

Moderator: Adminlizzieborden

User avatar
twinsrwe
Posts: 4457
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 11:49 pm
Gender: Female
Real Name: Judy
Location: Wisconsin

Re: Is this Lizzie?

Post by twinsrwe »

Photo Description: A rare picture of Lizzie Borden standing on the beach, a few years before she is accused of murderering her father and step mother with an axe in their home at Fall River, Massachusetts.
Lizzie Borden standing on the beach.png
Do you think this may be a case of mistaken identity? :roll:

I first saw this photo on Pinterest, under the heading of Explore Fall River, Rare Pictures, and more! Pinterest also has it under the heading of: Explore Creepy History, Murder Stories, and more! There is another one where they spelled Lizzie's name as Lizzy.

Pinterest obtained the photo is from the Maison de La Mort (House Of True Crime) web site. There are a couple of pages regarding Lizzie, but nothing as to where this photo came from. :sad: Here is the link to the site: http://tinyurl.com/yaapt28r
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
User avatar
InterestedReader
Posts: 496
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2015 5:52 pm
Gender: Female
Real Name: Wendy A.
Location: UK

Re: Is this Lizzie?

Post by InterestedReader »

I love it! Who can say if she resembles Lizzie? :smile:

Though, the clothing and hair certainly post-date 1892.
mbhenty
Posts: 4427
Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2006 1:20 am
Real Name:

Re: Is this Lizzie?

Post by mbhenty »

Honorable Ebay seller...

The seller was not aware that the photo of Bridget was listed incorrectly. She made a change and sent me a very nice note. Now, if all life went this way.... :smile:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1984-Press-Pho ... 0276.m3476
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
User avatar
InterestedReader
Posts: 496
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2015 5:52 pm
Gender: Female
Real Name: Wendy A.
Location: UK

Re: Is this Lizzie?

Post by InterestedReader »

image.jpg
Rare photo of Lizzie Borden on a diving holiday.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
mbhenty
Posts: 4427
Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2006 1:20 am
Real Name:

Re: Is this Lizzie?

Post by mbhenty »

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I love the guy with the boat hook. High tech. stuff.
User avatar
twinsrwe
Posts: 4457
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 11:49 pm
Gender: Female
Real Name: Judy
Location: Wisconsin

Re: Is this Lizzie?

Post by twinsrwe »

InterestedReader wrote:I love it! Who can say if she resembles Lizzie? :smile:

Though, the clothing and hair certainly post-date 1892.
I was hoping you would make a comment regarding her clothes. Determining the date of a person's clothes is not something I have a talent for, so, I appreciate the fact that you do. Approximately what year do you think the woman’s dress and hairdo would have been in style?

There are a couple of reasons I really don't think this is a picture of our Lizzie:

1. The photo description states that the picture was taken a few years before she is accused of murderering her father and step mother... So, if the clothing is actually dated after 1892, then this woman is not our Lizzie.

2. The woman in this photo is NOT wearing a hat. Lizzie testified at the inquest that when she returned from the barn, she went into the dining room and laid down her hat.

Lizzie inquest testimony page 77 (Underlining and highlighting are mine.):

Q. When you came down from the barn, what did you do then?
A. Came into the kitchen.

Q. What did you do then?
A. I went into the dining room and laid down my hat.

Source: http://lizzieandrewborden.com/wp-conten ... nquest.pdf

If Lizzie put a hat on to just walk to the barn, then I am sure she would wear one to go to the beach. Weather this picture was taken before or after 1892, wearing a hat would have been something that Lizzie would have learned at a young age, and she would have most likely continued to wear one whenever she went outside for the rest of her life, and that would include walking along the beach.
Last edited by twinsrwe on Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:51 am, edited 2 times in total.
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
User avatar
twinsrwe
Posts: 4457
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 11:49 pm
Gender: Female
Real Name: Judy
Location: Wisconsin

Re: Is this Lizzie?

Post by twinsrwe »

mbhenty wrote:Honorable Ebay seller...

The seller was not aware that the photo of Bridget was listed incorrectly. She made a change and sent me a very nice note. Now, if all life went this way.... :smile:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1984-Press-Pho ... 0276.m3476
I am so glad you notified her. Thanks again for contacting her. What a nice note she returned to you. :grin:
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
User avatar
twinsrwe
Posts: 4457
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 11:49 pm
Gender: Female
Real Name: Judy
Location: Wisconsin

Re: Is this Lizzie?

Post by twinsrwe »

InterestedReader wrote:image.jpg
Rare photo of Lizzie Borden on a diving holiday.
Well, Wendy, I thought the picture I posted was bad enough for determining if that woman was Lizzie Borden, or not, but I have to admit that your photo beat mine, hands down! :grin:
:cheers:
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
User avatar
InterestedReader
Posts: 496
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2015 5:52 pm
Gender: Female
Real Name: Wendy A.
Location: UK

Re: Is this Lizzie?

Post by InterestedReader »

twinsrwe wrote: I was hoping you would make a comment regarding her clothes. Determining the date of a person's clothes is not something I have a talent for, so, I appreciate the fact that you do. Approximately what year do you think the woman’s dress and hairdo would have been in style?
.
Really doing my best with it I'd say 1898 to 1905 - somewhere in there.
For us in the UK we think of 'Edwardian' dress from 1901 on - the cut of the blouse is Edwardian. And you're right - to be hatless was still mighty informal.

Pinterest is choc full of the most random images paraded as 'history'. I feel sorry for the kids who might be setting any store by it. And to my amazement I even find myself correcting stuff in the Comments section sometimes! Huge numbers of historic people all misidentified...
Oh well.
User avatar
twinsrwe
Posts: 4457
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 11:49 pm
Gender: Female
Real Name: Judy
Location: Wisconsin

Re: Is this Lizzie?

Post by twinsrwe »

Thanks, Wendy; I put a great deal of stock in your knowledge of fashion. I’ve never been into fashion, since I really don’t like to shop for clothes. (I know, some women are going to be surprised by that statement, but it’s never been something I have enjoyed doing.) However, your post gave me the curiosity to research the difference between Victorian dresses vs. Edwardian dresses. Now, I see what you mean by the cut of the blouse being Edwardian. :grin:

I agree with your statement about Pinterest. I know they obtain their information from other sources, but you’d think they would do some research or at least look into what they are posting before actually finalizing their post. I also feel sorry for anyone who may take fault information to heart.
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
Steve88778
Posts: 196
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:32 am
Real Name: steve

Re: Is this Lizzie?

Post by Steve88778 »

:birthdaysmile:
Last edited by Steve88778 on Wed Aug 04, 2021 6:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Beowulf
Posts: 75
Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2021 2:10 pm
Real Name: Barbara Barber

Re: Is this Lizzie?

Post by Beowulf »

No WONDER she didn't have a spot of blood on her! :shock: Good grief!
User avatar
Kat
Posts: 14756
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 11:59 pm
Real Name:
Location: Central Florida

Re: Is this Lizzie?

Post by Kat »

On page 1 of this topic (near the bottom) there is an e-bay offering shown and apparently described as a "photo" of Lizzie by a seller. I recognized it as an enhanced illustration to a newspaper article, The Atlanta Constitution, Sunday Edition, Aug. 21, 1927 :santa:
The second picture is the one posted on this topic and supposedly on e-bay (I'm too late to verify listing...)
Here they are!
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Steve88778
Posts: 196
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:32 am
Real Name: steve

Re: Is this Lizzie?

Post by Steve88778 »

It looks like a very nice drawing - from the real photo of her.
Image
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
mbhenty
Posts: 4427
Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2006 1:20 am
Real Name:

Re: Is this Lizzie?

Post by mbhenty »

:smile:

Everyone who finds an old portrait of a gal thinks it's Lizzie.


This one is on Ebay as we speak. Hey, free shipping. Must be Lizzie?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/266416795986
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
camgarsky4
Posts: 1386
Joined: Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:05 pm
Real Name: George Schuster

Re: Is this Lizzie?

Post by camgarsky4 »

Wow.....is Ebay this 'buyer beware' and seller can imply anything they want?
User avatar
Kat
Posts: 14756
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 11:59 pm
Real Name:
Location: Central Florida

Re: Is this Lizzie?

Post by Kat »

Oh, sorry, I missed one!
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
mbhenty
Posts: 4427
Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2006 1:20 am
Real Name:

Re: Is this Lizzie?

Post by mbhenty »

People are hilarious.

Here's another photo of Lizzie, or who someone thinks is Lizzie, for 12,000 bucks.

Almost looks like her.

One give-away is the religious cross the girl is wearing. She is most likely Catholic. Old world Congregationalists did not wear crucifixes. That is why you don't see a cross atop a Congregational church. Lizzie was a Congregationalist. Although you see plenty of wind vanes on Congregational buildings. (must be some interesting history there.)

And the girl is slouching. Lizzie would never slouch. She was to well-to-do. Although that may be Alice Russell with her in the picture :arrow: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/235414145618?h ... R7ru5eeuYw
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Beowulf
Posts: 75
Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2021 2:10 pm
Real Name: Barbara Barber

Re: Is this Lizzie?

Post by Beowulf »

You know at very first glance at that I did not think this person looked like Lizzie. The expression alone seems to come from a different person. One thing about Lizzie, and I'm not saying she never could've had a look like that on her face, I never knew her, but the person 'inside' looks like a completely different type of person and Lizzie had a somewhat innocent look on her face. I think it helped her get out of the jam she got herself in, the 'jam' being she likely really did murder her parents.

I kind of wonder if she was not a bit like Marilyn Monroe. Monroe had a very innocent face and manner, even when she was being 'seductive'. You could tell she was a bit disasociated from herself. I think that is what made people love her, she really came off as someone who was innocent and hurt, deeply, and she was. Capote wanted Monroe to play Holly Go Lightly in Breakfast at Tiffany's. There is a line in that movie that pretty much sums up this kind of phenomena. Martin Balsam plays an agent in the movie and says to George Peppard playing her neighbor and friend Paul Varjak, " [about Holly] She's a phony. But she's a real phony".

I sometimes wonder if that is how it was with Lizzie. She went to church, brought up in that 1800s culture. Women were very much made according to the time and stepping out of that role in things like murdering parents with a hatchet didn't fit the image she had been groomed into.

It was a horrendous act, against God and man, and one more thing, not seen as 'ladylike'. No one believed her capable of it because they truly believed women not capable of acts like that. Her innocent face and personality put forth in the world for years protected her. I feel she likely did not ever show that other side. That other face. I really think maybe she did not know of it herself.

I think when she did it she 'snapped' into the other person she had deep inside her, one that maybe you could say was the 'real' one yet I think the one others knew on a daily basis, the innocent looking one who went to church, I think even to Lizzie that one was 'real' also, to others AND to herself. Growing up she really became the girl expected of her at the time, was natural in it but the thing that lurked beneath,for whatever reason, and I'm not in the crowd of ones who believe she was molested but who knows maybe that's true, I think the living under a miserly controlling father who picked the second wife over his daughters for the inheritance to go to, that let out her savage nature. She for a long time wished to be equal with her peers in society, and he stopped that lilfelong dream. Her father's second marriage to a woman who seems not to have loved them and who ultimately damned their future as the women alongside their peers by way of that inheritance blew the cork off the bottle.
Beowulf
Posts: 75
Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2021 2:10 pm
Real Name: Barbara Barber

Re: Is this Lizzie?

Post by Beowulf »

I looked up that photo, obviously EBay, and saw this:
IMG_7668.jpeg
Are they crazy?!
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Last edited by Beowulf on Mon Feb 05, 2024 7:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
mbhenty
Posts: 4427
Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2006 1:20 am
Real Name:

Re: Is this Lizzie?

Post by mbhenty »

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Another thing I find funny is the proof they give as to Emma.

They show a picture of Emma and the girl standing in the photo. The only problem is that the girl in the photo is not Emma and the example they give as Emma, also is not Emma.

Another unlikelihood is that improvisatorial salad bowl the girl is wearing for a hat. Very basic, common headwear for an affluent young lady like Lizzie. Add to this the fact that Lizzie never took a portrait with a hat on. There are only two photos of Lizzie wearing a hat. In one she very young, six or seven, and in the other she is old, looking well into her sixties.

The other thing the seller does not disclose, or perhaps have, is the photographer. That alone would help put you on the right path to Lizziedom, since Gay Studios is the only place she had her photo taken. Gay's was a block from her home on South Main Street.

As for her looks getting Lizzie her way. Yes, I can see that. She was the baby of the family. Especially since Emma was almost 10 years older. And I am certain that her looks and the way she conducted herself would have found favor in court. Let alone that she was a woman. And Women do not go around chopping their parents up with an axe.

But as for the real Lizzie Borden. I believe her looks did not play into being found innocent. Not at all. The reason she was found innocent was because they never discovered the weapon, eyewitness, confessor, etc. Alice Russell was the best they could do. And that was not enough. The state had a very weak case. All they had was rumor and conjecture. And if we are to believe that the jury was learned and fair, even a man would have gotten away with it. If in fact Lizzie did do it.

But good post, Beowulf :!:
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
mbhenty
Posts: 4427
Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2006 1:20 am
Real Name:

Re: Is this Lizzie?

Post by mbhenty »

:arrow: AND WILL THE REAL EMMA BORDEN PLEASE STAND UP :!:


.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Beowulf
Posts: 75
Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2021 2:10 pm
Real Name: Barbara Barber

Re: Is this Lizzie?

Post by Beowulf »

" The reason she was found innocent was because they never discovered the weapon, eyewitness, confessor, etc. Alice Russell was the best they could do. And that was not enough. The state had a very weak case. All they had was rumor and conjecture. And if we are to believe that the jury was learned and fair, even a man would have gotten away with it. If in fact Lizzie did do it".

Well, if you want to get all legal and stuff about it :roll:

No. You're right. I keep forgetting they did not find the weapon, it was a very weak case.

No weapon: O.J., Kohberger, Zodiac...although in the Zodiac's case if they would've just found that 'outfit' in a closet I'd be happy.
mbhenty
Posts: 4427
Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2006 1:20 am
Real Name:

Re: Is this Lizzie?

Post by mbhenty »

Yes Beowulf:

As you say, Lizzie had that look that spoke to innocence if not confidence, one that perhaps gave credence to two people inside her, as you put it. Her looks was one of mystery, or an ambiguous riddle that was all ours to decipher. Or not!

Whare as the girl in the photo on ebay says, "This picture thing is not going to hurt me, is it? ." Or, "what's going on here?" Her gaze lost, and without purpose. Very un-Lizzie-like. Lizzie's pictures were well posed and persuasive, where by the girl on ebay looks somewhat stumped or uninterested. Perhaps it's just the silly hat. But then again I have been the king of silly hats and the last to comment on fashion. Who else would wear a pink cowboy hat? :shock: :roll:
mbhenty
Posts: 4427
Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2006 1:20 am
Real Name:

Re: Is this Lizzie?

Post by mbhenty »

Yes I posted this somewhere on another thread.

Crazy, huh?

Been on ebay for quite a while.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
mbhenty
Posts: 4427
Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2006 1:20 am
Real Name:

Re: Is this Lizzie?

Post by mbhenty »

:alcohol:

And then we have this..... posted on ebay as we speak.

A signed page out of an autograph book or something similar, described as "one page". The signature of Seabury Bowen. Described as Lizzie Borden's doctor.

This is not Lizzie's signature. It's Dr. Bowen's. And the seller has his watermark all over it so you don't steal it and making it difficult to read.

In his ebay listing he gives a very long history of the Borden case. Very uncommon.

Unless Bowen's signature is on a document having to do with the case, a letter, or court record having to do with the case, Bowen's signature is worth a lot less than a hundred dollars. Twenty or thirty dollars, perhaps, and that is if you are a hard core collector. How many times has his signature been on the market? Nearly 10,000 dollars? Absurd and daft.

Several years ago Seabury's family bible was listed on ebay. That went for 350 dollars. Why the Bible alone was worth that. Here we have what the seller says is Seabury Bowen's signature on a piece of paper. :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/266603901713?h ... R8ydqL-vYw
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Beowulf
Posts: 75
Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2021 2:10 pm
Real Name: Barbara Barber

Re: Is this Lizzie?

Post by Beowulf »

mbhenty wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2024 8:12 pm Yes I posted this somewhere on another thread.

Crazy, huh?

Been on ebay for quite a while.
I guess those were her burlesque years.
mbhenty
Posts: 4427
Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2006 1:20 am
Real Name:

Re: Is this Lizzie?

Post by mbhenty »

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Hahahaha :!:
User avatar
Kat
Posts: 14756
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 11:59 pm
Real Name:
Location: Central Florida

Is this Lizzie?

Post by Kat »

Not Lizzie Nor Emma
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
User avatar
Kat
Posts: 14756
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 11:59 pm
Real Name:
Location: Central Florida

Is this Lizzie?

Post by Kat »

I am Emma!
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Post Reply