Lizzie autograph for sale and other items

[Eric]

just came across this while surfing. Thought some may enjoy!
http://www.supernaught.com/crimefiles/topshelf.htm

[mbhenty]

Here's one for everyone. Inspect and dissect, scrutinize and examine. Hmmm

http://cgi.ebay.com/UNIQUE-Authentic-LI ... dZViewItem

[Harry]

I took the signature from EBay and enhanced and enlarged it.



Then I looked for known Lizzie signatures where she signed her name the same way.

This one is form her library card, date unknown, but after 1895:



This one is from a personal letter she wrote, date unknown:



This one from when she signed her inheritance from John Morse:



There is also the one from her funeral instructions. In all 4 instances the B in Borden is completely different.

[mbhenty]

Thanks greatly Harry!

Yes, I see what you mean.......

Her real signature is much more bold.

Also, she writes with a bit of a "right slant", which is missing.

The bold L is just not there etc, etc........

[Kat]

Yes, her writing seemed to have that leaning slash.
Stef and I had experimented with her letter "I dreamed of you." Looks like hatchet-hack marks.

[stuartwsa]

Thanks for sharing that analysis, Kat. There is something vaguely disturbing about that slant, isn't there?
While I would love to have something with Lizzie's signature for my collection, there is always something rather antiseptic in having a clipped piece of paper in a frame (at least, to me). I would rather have a letter, or a book, or something intact. It drives me nuts when I see prints cut from books, and magazines sliced up by antique dealers, because one print might be worth a bit of money by itself.

[Tina-Kate]

It drives me nuts when I see prints cut from books, and magazines sliced up by antique dealers, because one print might be worth a bit of money by itself.

Amen to that!

The Edwardians were also terrible about doing that---hence you see things like Presidential documents & letters from Washington onward cut apart & pasted into turn-of-the-century scrapbooks.

[mbhenty]

I concur with Stuartwsa. The rest of the document that was originally connected with the signature makes all the difference in the world to a serious collector.

This sort of thing is very common in the book world.

A good example is Ray Bradbury signed books.

Ray loves to do book signings.

There are probably more signed Bradburys than any other author. (?) Thus, dealers will have him sign blank cards which they can take and insert or paste into Bradbury first editions. I would never purchase a book with a Bradbury paste-in-signature. Though, I may be sure it is his real signature, there was no bonding between the book and the author.

In this case we can be pretty sure that it is not even Lizzie's signature.

[mbhenty]

The slant in Lizzie's handwriting is not as vaguely disturbing as you would think Stuart.

Or perhaps it is

It was the way I was taught to write when in grade school.

To this day, I still believe it was a clandestine conspiracy between Austin Palmer and the Catholic School system to torture children.

Any educated person should have known that a 6 or 7 year old does not have the "hand dexterity" or arm and wrist agility to master handwriting such as the type promoted by Austin Palmer's 19th century technique. But still they tried.


The "slant" was a method taught to me when I was in 2nd and 3rd grades as a child in Catholic School, along with all the picket fence scribal and tornado incline circles..............all part of the Palmer Method.

I remember being kept after school during "writing exam finals" after all the other kids had been let out for the summer because my slant was not just right. I can hear sister Mary Angela demanding, "Do it again, do it again, do it again..........vaguely disturbing, could be.

[Angel]

Good Lord, I had a Sister Mary Angela too in second grade who was a tyrant. I wonder if she was a clone?

My mother used to pride herself on the fact that she was taught the Palmer method. She was 88 when she died a few years ago. I had no idea that good old Palmer was around so much longer than that.

[Kat]

Jeesh! Well we are of an age MB and I too attended Catholic school, but I don't think we ever had the handwriting cops hovering over us! Wow!

[mbhenty]

Yes Angel

Sister Angela was a little short women with a mustache. Everyone feared her, except Louie and Jose. They actually made her cry a couple of times. I remember being confused as a child to whether I should hate her or feel bad for her. Could be why she had such a short fuse with children.

She was one tuff cookie, though.

Who knows, perhaps someone very unhappy in life, who was talked into the profession by her family as a young women and left to take care of everyone's kids, and not allowed to have any of her own.

Years later, I ran into Sister Angela.

She was retired to the convent on second street (621 Second Street, some may remember someone tried and failed to make it into a B&B) I was about 30, and Sister Angela was about 55 at the time. I remember being shocked how young she looked and how she didn't appear any different. When I spoke to her she still displayed that dour and austere firmness, but I discovered there was a sadness about her, and found her to be a real nice person.

I have known some characters in my life.

Today Louie is somewhat a town drunk, in his 50s and picking bar fights with kids in their 20s.

Jose died in a "gone wrong" drug deal and was beaten to death with a baseball bat. Jose had 2 sons, twins. Both went on to rob and kill the 72 year old guy they worked for.

I went on to post on LizzieAndrewBorden and continue to place my foot in my mouth. Still I fair better than Louie and Jose and probably Sister Mary Angela. :

[mbhenty]

Yes Kat: It was like taking finals.........only your in the 2nd grade.

It was the only time you could use a fountain pen. I remember that it was real cool.

All year, pens were not allowed, only pencils.

The pride of owning a fountain pen then was like that of owning a cell phone today.

The final copy had to be done in pen. The Sister would pull the pens out of a neat little boxes like she was a samurai drawing her sword and passing it on to her student. You were timed. When time was up you had to place the pen down and fast.

Of course, you were not allowed to practice in pen, only in pencil. When it came time to take the final, the pen had an entire different feel. Where I may have had it just right with the pencil, when it came time for the last final paper, I just could not duplicate it. The Nun just could not understand that and thought I was failing on purpose.

All that testing and today I print, since I can't understand or make out my own handwriting.

[Angel]

The Sister Mary Angela that I had was apretty young woman with an attitude- very arrogant. She scared the bejezuz out of all of us. I got her back once, though inadvertantly. She and another nun took us by public bus one cold winter day (there was still snow on the ground) to town to see the movie "Lady of Fatima", or some such thing. We were so very young then. After the movie they hustled us all out in a crowd and I got separated from the group. I was too little and inexperienced to know to go back in and talk with the manager at the theater, so my only solution was to fend for myself and try to walk home. It was about 5 miles home. I got about a half mile through town and was starting to go over a busy bridge when a friend of my parents actually saw me while she was driving across in the other direction. She was flabbergasted. She took me home. My mother called the parish priest in charge of the school and got the nun in deep trouble. Can you imagine something like that happening now days?

[Kat]

I Loved loved loved my fountain pen! It was as dear to me as my pool cue was later on! You break it in, treat it right and it's wonderful!

[william]

Lizzie's right leaning script is indicative of Spencerian script, popular in 1850 to 1895 . In 1920 the Palmer method, a more conservative form of writing, was introduced. This was the system I was taught when I started school in 1926. I was never very talented in this area and soon adopted my own form of wrinting, a method that was immediately outlawed by the all of the Sisters in St. Patricks Parochial School

[mbhenty]

Good to hear from you William. Right you are:

The Spencerian Method, which was popular during the Golden Age of Writhing, was the writing style of all the famous Victorian authors and writers of the time. It was a time when the style of your handwriting was a display of good breeding, culture and status.

The Spencerian Method was reaplaced by the Palmer which was a little more ridged with just a slight slant. Today there are books and courses on the Spencerian Method, which is considered almost an art form.

Those with children will notice that when many children write, they try to "stand up" there letters like soldiers at attention. At least that is the way I worte.

Sister would stand behind me at my desk and guide my hand. I remember her grip as she wrapped her hand around mine. She was short tempered. I remember it being a crushing grip as she sounded out instruction and forced my hand up an down the paper.

[darthvader]

For quite some time there has been a Lizzie 'poem' on ebay. It has a buy it now price of $4495. -Gulp- I collect autographs and have a small collection and Lizzie would be my ultimate, but $4495???

http://cgi.ebay.com/Lizzie-Borden-Autog ... dZViewItem

It also brings the question of how authentic something like this might be. I am sure the seller is excited to claim as 'the real deal', and perhaps it is. But if you look at the item the signature does not really match the others I have seen. It is not a smooth, fluid signature like the library card example posted above.

It seems 'LAB' shows up in the cover of books from time to time with and without 'Maplecroft' seals. One does wonder if the 'LAB' was done in her hand or if done by somebody else. Regardless, those seem to be much more reasonable in price signed or unsigned.

But a true Lizzie 'autograph' is pretty darn rare. You dont ever see many ever. Great examples posted here, nice job, Harry and Kat!

[william]

I wouldn't touch this "Lizzie" autograph with the proverbial ten-foot pole.
As you observed, the signature is not ever close to verified specimens.

Given a choice, I would much rather purchase Lizzie's autograph in a book, known to have come from her library - if it had the Maplecroft seal so much the better.

Books containing legitimate signatures range in price from about $400 to $800 based upon known auction sales.

[darthvader]

I wouldn't touch this "Lizzie" autograph with the proverbial ten-foot pole.
As you observed, the signature is not ever close to verified specimens.

Given a choice, I would much rather purchase Lizzie's autograph in a book, known to have come from her library - if it had the Maplecroft seal so much the better.

Books containing legitimate signatures range in price from about $400 to $800 based upon known auction sales.

At the BandB there is at least one book signed by Lizzie. I would have happily given $800 for it. I tried to hint I had an interest in purchase but often times that can be very insulting to somebody.

I would like to get a second look at it to see if it was a Maplecroft book as most of them are. But if it was a legit Lizzie signed book pre-Maplecroft, one has to place the value higher, as it may have been in Lizzie's possession as the muders occured.

[1bigsteve]

One has to be extremely careful when buying autographs, even from dealers. I guess there is big money to be made in fakery. It surprises me on the number of fake autographs I see on the auction sites, especially eBay. Some look so bad you have to use your imagination to see any resemblance at all. The signature of one of my late friends shows up now and then and I feel like puking they look so bad. People will go to any length to make a buck. I wish there was a way to shut those con artists down.

That top signature of "Lizzie's," the one on eBay, looks fake to me in comparison to the legit one's Harry posted. I wonder what sucker will buy it? Buyer beware?


-1bigsteve (o: