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augusta
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Porter

Post by augusta »

The other day I was on AbeBooks. Someone was selling a Porter - the reprint of Bob Flynn's, not the original 1893 copy - for $100. It is out of print and sold out now, but gee - that went for just $35 originally (and I thought that was a lot years ago!). I guess they can name their price if they want to, but it seems like it's overpriced to me.
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Kat
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Post by Kat »

My used 1985 Porter, as a Library copy cost me $22, which is what they paid. That was around 1990.

Now it can be downloaded, for reading, at:
http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Resources ... dBooks.htm
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Fargo
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Post by Fargo »

Books like Porter's, I am guessing can be reprinted by anyone because of their age. Yet, the 1985 reprint is copyrighted.

So would that mean if I wanted to have it reprinted that I would have to use an original 1893 copy for a reference ?

If I wanted to reprint Lundays book, would I have to own an original copy first ? Even a reprinted copy of lunday's book is hard and expensive to find. If I could reprint it I would do it, so that copies of it were easier to obtain and more affordable.
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augusta
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Post by augusta »

Fargo, It was explained to me by a Borden scholar that you could not copy anything from Flynn's book - not even the photos - unless he gave you permission. You would have to go to the original Porter and use that for photos and any text you wanted to use.

I am not clear, tho, if Bob Flynn purchased the rights to Porter's book. It doesn't look like he did. But if he did, you would have to have permission to use any of it.


Please donate to our Edwin Porter grave marker fund. :study:
mbhenty
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Post by mbhenty »

:smile:

YES AUGUSTA:

It is my understanding that there are no rights retained by (F)flynn, Porter, the publisher or anyone. It is all public domain. If published before 1923 or if the author has been dead for 70+ years, the material is free for use.

There are special occasions where these laws are twisted or argued but these do not extend to Porter's book

So Edwin Porter's book does not belong to Mr. (F)flynn but to the public, thus the reason (F)flynn was able to re-publish it.
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Post by mbhenty »

:smile:

As above, here is another Porter, this one published by the Lawbook Exchange. The copyright in (F)flynn"s book pertains to the book as it was compiled by (F)flynn, that is, containing any extra material including preface, forward or flynns new title page.
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Fargo
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Post by Fargo »

What I am wondering is that in reprinting a book like this, if legally you would have to have an original to go on. Like so I would not be able to use Flynn's 1985 reprint in anyway, even for just the original Porter pages.

In that case I might have to have an original lunday in order to reprint it.

To buy a reprint of porter is expensive, but you can find it. Lunday's book is very much smaller in size than the porter book and unfortunatley just as expensive.

If it were legal to reprint Lunday without an original in my possesion then I could go to a local printer here in town and have it done. Then make it more readily available to the public.
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mbhenty
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Post by mbhenty »

:smile:

Yes Fargo:

There is no problem using (F)flynn's copy of Porter's book to make a reprint, legally or otherwise.

From the looks of it (F)flynn did not change anything, like the font, photos, page sequence, extra text or notes within the narrative etc. It was re-published exactly as Porter had produced it thus, using flynn's copy for another reprint is no problem, since he did not create anything new. You just can't use his forward or title page. But then again, why would you.

The same is true about Lundy's booklet. If one uses flynns copy to reprint it once again you must make sure it is an exact copy of the First Edition before doing so. This may mean finding an original and making sure flynn did not make any changes.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I know I have MENTIONED it many times, to the distaste of some here on the FORUM, but I will say it again--------- if any rules, guidelines, principles and standards were broken, it was done so by Mr. flynn by printing a limited edition published to a limited number and screwing collectors, such as myslef who purchased 4 copies from him, by pumping out an extra 1000 copies. (This done by removing his own limited edition notation.) He was smart enough to remove his notation though. Still did not make it right...............still it exasperates me. All he needed to do was change the cloth or binding, something to alert the buyer that this is not the same edition.

Still, some, probably friends of Mr. flynn or sympathetic to him, feel I am a little harsh on Mr. flynn. True, true, but I will mention it whenever his name comes up, every chance I get. I will continue to out people who dupe, swindle collectors......flynn probably thinks he did nothing wrong, but to the collector, the purist, we don't take it lightly.........our money is hard earned. And it's not only about money.

It's about the love of books. When I find such a treasure I touch, fondle, smell, everything but taste the book. I love books.

To the collector it is all about love. To the publisher it is all about money. And to the opportunist all about greed.
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Fargo
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Post by Fargo »

I don't want to ask to much of you Mbhenty, but perhaps if you look at your friends original Lunday you could tell if there are any changes from the original to reprint that was made.

I believe my chances of finding an original Lunday are pretty slim ,as I have never even seen one offered anywhere for sale, not on Ebay or at Abebooks either.
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mbhenty
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Post by mbhenty »

:smile:

Yes Fargo:

I do have a friend who has a Lunday, an original one.

Though, she has never volunteered to show it off and I have never asked to see it, I will need to do that next time I am over.

The word "RARE' to describe books is over used in the Antiquarian Book World. Scarce OK. Rare nowhere as much.

As for Lunday, it is truly a "Rare" item. I have been book collecting for over 30 years and I have never seen a Lunday. And since ebay has been on line I have never seen one up for sale or bid.

So, next time I visit my friend, I will bring my Lunday (flynn copy) with me and Have my her compare the two. As soon as I know I will let you know Fargo.



[/list]
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Fargo
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Post by Fargo »

Thanks Mbhenty.

In the case of "In Defence of Lizzie Borden" written by Arther Phillips, I am guessing permision from the publisher and or the family had to be obtained to reprint it.

Phillips died in 1941 and the material was reprinted in 1986, thats 45 years.
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Post by mbhenty »

Yes Fargo:

I would need to look into it a little more, but I believe even Phillips can be duplicated and may also be public domain. It does not look like Mr Phillips copyrighted his 3 volume set of the history of Fall River. Thus, the reason flynn was able to publish the portion on the Borden Case in book form.

I mention the above because where the copyright should go in Phillips books there's a notation that reads, PERMISSION TO ABSTRACT AND QUOTE, WITH PROPER ACKNOWLEDGMENT IS GRANTED.

This appears to be implying that it is ok to copy it as long as you give the author credit. Whether this means that someone can go out an copy the entire publication as it appears may be another matter. Phillips was originally privately published by the Dover Press in Fall River.

I don't pretend to know copyright laws and utter the above out of common sense and from what little I know from reading and talking to book-people thus, a thorough study, or the right people would need to be summoned to quote law.



:farao: :farao:
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Kat
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Post by Kat »

There is a typed Lunday here to download for anyone:

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Resources ... dBooks.htm

Also I think MB is correct about the permission granted by Phillips.


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augusta
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Post by augusta »

Bob Flynn copyrighted his version in 1985. So anything you want to copy out of his book is not legal. You can quote small pieces with a credit to him given, and you can also use pieces in a book review.

I think people have been using the photos directly out of Porter's book. Technically that's not legal. But since the same photos appear in Porter's original, I don't think one can tell the difference.

I guess Mr. Flynn cleaned it up a bit for his issue, as he mentions in his forward that he did everything in his effort to print it as an exact condition as he could including "design, as is possible despite the poor quality of paper and photographs in the initial printing".

It's doubtful that Mr. Flynn obtained Porter's copyright. It would have been mentioned in the copyright notice.

Phillips' book was completed and published after he died. His brother-in-law finished the book. I'm not sure what the copyright stance is with his book. I would ask an attorney that specializes in copyrights before I did anything with that.

His notice of "permission to abstract and quote, with proper acknowledgement, is granted" is confusing. There is no copyright notice, as Kat showed us. You don't need 'permission' to quote from the book, like for research, etc.. An abstract (a summary) if lengthy does need permission from the copyright holder. But there isn't any!

The Lundy book sounds like it's in the public domain.

I would ask an attorney (make sure, if you do, that he/she specializes in copyrights) before I did any reprinting.

Please give to the Edwin Porter grave marker fund. :study:
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Post by mbhenty »

:smile:

Sorry Augusta:

PORTER'S book can be copied by anyone.

As for flynn's edition, one can not copy flynns pages, that is, his forward and his title page. The remainder of flynns book does not belong to flynn.

If he had changed something, the type or photos or something in the text, even the font, it would belong to flynn. But flynn published the book exactly as it appeared, page for page, illustration for illustration, font for font just as PORTER did.

It is public domain.

It is not flynn's work. It is not flynn's property. He can not take claim to it by copyrighting it. It is not his to copyright. What flynn did was copyright the book as it appears, with his own forward and his own title page. That forward and his title page as it appears together with the text of PORTER'S book as a whole can not be copied. But, from page 3 to page 312 is up for grabs for anyone who wants to copy it.

Anything written before 1923 is public domain. Or anything that has been over 70 years after the author has been dead. There are a couple of exceptions that extend it for a couple of more years, if I'm not mistaken, but in PORTER'S case, if I find an old 1893 PORTER and wish to publish it, it's my gain. And if I use flynn's text to do it, how is he to prove I did not use an origianl. He can't. It's not his property.

The same would prove true for Phillips book. His little declaration would never stand up in court. There is no substitute for copyright. If his family was concerned, they had over 65 years to copyright the 3 volume Phillips. If one wants to copy it all it would take would be to check to see if it was ever copyrighted after the 1941 publication. If not------public domain. And, by 2012, for sure, for sure, and in all cases, it will be public domain.

For Instance, take the Book FALL RIVER AND IT'S INDUSTRIES. It was re-published by the Fall River Historical Society, along with Fenner's HISTORY OF FALL RIVER.

If you ask them I am sure they will tell you all it took was a little cash and a love for the book.





:farao:
mbhenty
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Post by mbhenty »

:smile:


HERE'S SOMETHING THAT MIGHT HELP :!:


http://www.unc.edu/~unclng/public-d.htm
augusta
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Post by augusta »

I understand what you're saying, mb, about things being in the public domain, and of course you're right.

But in re-printing someone's reprint, it's a gray area to me. I was told that you can't just pick and grab the photos out of Bob Flynn's Porter. You're supposed to get them from an original Porter. But, like you said about the text, no one would be able to tell.

If I were going to reprint something, I would take the time to consult with a publishing attorney first. It can't hurt.

I haven't studied copyrights in years, but I was taught that anyone can purchase someone's copyright once it expires. There must be a rule on a book being so many years old that no one can purchase the rights, but I don't know just how that goes today.

Thanks for the link, mb! I need it!

You can never know enough about copyright laws. - S. Chapman :peanut16:
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Fargo
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Post by Fargo »

I was looking at the FRHS website and noticed a picture of an original Porter that is mentioned. This Porter appears Blue to me. I thought the original Porter only came in green.
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Eric
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Post by Eric »

There was a discussion a while back regarding the color of the binding. i posted a picture of my original porter (which also appears blue) to the site. I think we pretty much determined that the blue binding coloring is the effect of time and conditions. :smile:
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Post by Eric »

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Kat
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Post by Kat »

I can't see your link- I tried!
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