the BLOODY clock

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mbhenty
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the BLOODY clock

Post by mbhenty »

:shock:


COME ON NOW, THAT'S NOT BLOOD.

http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws/eBa ... &viewitem=



Hope no one here bid on this clock. The only thing this sale proves is that items sell for a lot more money off the floor at an action than on EBAY.

Silly, silly, yes silly to think that no one (Emma) washed the blood off this clock after the murder. Chances are very unlikely that this clock even came from the Borden home. And if it did, and if Emma did not wash it, then someone would have before passing it on.

Even to a novice one can see that the splatter is not from the same direction. I am willing to bet that anyone who has studied blood splatter patterns would testify that these "presume" blood spots are not consistent with those of a crime scene. Just my opinion you see. But, should not it look more like streaks, splatter, then just drippings?

I don't want to be to harsh here, but the buyer may continue to believe that this clock came from the Borden place. Where is the proof.

There's one born every minute. Dreamer...........



:silly:
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Fargo
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Post by Fargo »

I was under the impression that the blood never reached as far as the fireplace mantle. Also the clock would most likely have been on the center of the mantle not on the end of the mantle closest to Andrew.
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mbhenty
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Post by mbhenty »

:smile:

Yes FARGO: That is true. And if the blood had to travel that distance it would have some velocity thus, leaving elongated patterns not spotting as is displayed on the clock.

Also, Emma washed down the crime scene. If there was that much blood on the clock then it would have been all over the fireplace mantle. When washing the mantle and objects on the mantle of blood Emma would have washed the clock. If my memory serves me well the only blood (most of it) was on the rear wall.

If you read the add on the ebay sale it states that the clock was at the Fall River Police Station. I see no reason why the police would have taken the clock. Unless the clock stopped at the time of the crime (because it was jarred by the killer) or if it was used as the weapon the police would have not take it. There was no reason.
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Grace
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Post by Grace »

Gah, it never fails to amaze me what people are willing to believe!
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Kat
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Post by Kat »

Reading the Prelim, pages 178-9, Dr. Dolan is asked if he gave permission to someone in essense, to clean up some of the blood in the area of the sitting room- probably prior to the funeral to be held there- and it is implied that Mrs. Holmes was in on this question of whether cleaning of the *paint* could be done. Dr. Dolan says he did not give the order and seems miffed that some cleaning was done. He admits to the parlour door spots having been cleaned, probably Friday.

I can't imagine the girls holding the funeral in that sitting room amongst all the blood, but once the carpet pieces were taken from the guest room and the sitting room*, that probably eliminated quite a bit.

And yes, eventually the blood would have to be cleaned up, but there was still blood spots when Kieran measured on August 16th. (Trial, 119-20.)
It may have been a housekeeper or servant under Emma's direction or Emma herself helped by Mrs. Holmes who finally cleaned up? It would be interesting to know.

*(I think the carpet was taken up from under the sofa and removed, but I'm not sure.)
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Post by augusta »

I think they talked about every blood spot there was, and there was not a mention of a clock with blood on it.
mbhenty
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Post by mbhenty »

:-?


Yes, Aw-gee, I missed bidding on Lizzie's "bloody" clock......

But wait..............

Look..........

Someone's got one of Lizzie's Rings.

And it's haunting the seller and she's sooooooooooooooooo-afraid that she has to sell it.

:alcohol:

The Things people try to sell you.......

Got a bid though.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Haunted-Extremely-A ... 500wt_1144






:shock:
mbhenty
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Post by mbhenty »

:smile:

Well Yes, ring finally sold. 18 dollars. 8 bids. 5 separate bidders. Doe, Dee. Doe, Doe, Doe.

You have to have something lacking if you think this was Lizzie Borden's Ring, and even more missing to let it go for 18 dollars if it really was. Makes me wonder how many of the bidders really believed this to belong to Lizzie Borden.


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... K:MEWAX:IT




:axeman:
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Kat
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the BLOODY clock

Post by Kat »

I happened to have saved the pictures of the "bloody" clock, claimed by this seller to be the Borden's, that sat on the mantle in the sitting room, mute witness to murder. The link no longer works, of course, to E-bay, but I have been enjoying the repartee in this whole topic section so much, I thought I would share a speck of the past. :scatter:
The group used to hang out a lot at E-bay!
[This is not the Borden's clock, BTW]
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PossumPie
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Re: the BLOODY clock

Post by PossumPie »

Thanks Kat. A little medical forensics instruction for everyone: The "blood" drops on the top of the clock have no "Tails" meaning the liquid came from straight above and probably less than 4-5 inches away. The small droplets are high velocity but the larger ones are not. Andrew was lying down at a height less than the top of the clock so any blood on it would have had to have been from the hatchet swing. It would have tails pointing to the back of the clock.
explain2.png
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"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." Christopher Hitchens
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Kat
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Re: the BLOODY clock

Post by Kat »

Thanks!
So the person swinging a bladed instrument at Andrew could only leave the blood marks that have tails by standing facing the body with their back to the mantle and then swing the weapon over their own head before starting the descending blow which would cast off from the implement after a first strike?
What if the weapon was a cudgel, or bat, would the blood cast off look different?
(And I've always had a hard time trying to understand the direction to cause the "tail.")
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PossumPie
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Re: the BLOODY clock

Post by PossumPie »

Kat wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 8:46 pm Thanks!
So the person swinging a bladed instrument at Andrew could only leave the blood marks that have tails by standing facing the body with their back to the mantle and then swing the weapon over their own head before starting the descending blow which would cast off from the implement after a first strike?
What if the weapon was a cudgel, or bat, would the blood cast off look different?
(And I've always had a hard time trying to understand the direction to cause the "tail.")
Liquid takes the shape that has the shape of a sphere...think water drop. When it is accelerating though the air it's spherical. When it hits a wall, floor, object, person, etc. it quickly decelerates, but remember high school physics, "An object in motion tends to stay in motion" so the droplet hits something and continues in the same direction it was traveling (Away from the origin of the drop). This leaves a "tail" pointing in the direction it was traveling. Any circular blood drop was coming straight down--when it hit and stopped, all edges of the sphere spread out evenly on the surface so a circle with no tail.
The blood will have tails no matter where the person is standing, but every tail will point AWAY from the skull of the person. Even if the body was removed before the police arrived, tracing all of the tails backwards would point to the exact location and height of the skull when it was hit. If the person were standing in the doorway and hit Andrew from that direction, the spatter on the mantle/clock would be from the blow itself, if the person was beside the couch facing the doorway, the spatter on the mantle or clock would be "cast off" from the swing of the hatchet back over the killers head.
Big drops equals slow moving blood, tiny droplets equals high velocity like gunshot. Those 3-4 telltale large drops on the clock in question proves it is fake. Any blood traveling that distance would have been high velocity small drops.
"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." Christopher Hitchens
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Kat
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Re: the BLOODY clock

Post by Kat »

OK, I think I got it. It's not like I haven't been reading true crime, investigation, some forensics, books on poisoning, bones and body farm, and all manner of murders, profiling, and detection since 1969 :wink:, but the tail of the blood castoff eluded me. I suppose I could rematch Lizzie Birden Took An Axe video!
(See what my iPad wrote??? I wrote I could rewatch Lizzie Borden- jeesh!)
But I only have it in VHS. Ah, those were the days!
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PossumPie
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Re: the BLOODY clock

Post by PossumPie »

Kat wrote: Fri Dec 24, 2021 3:52 am OK, I think I got it. It's not like I haven't been reading true crime, investigation, some forensics, books on poisoning, bones and body farm, and all manner of murders, profiling, and detection since 1969 :wink:, but the tail of the blood castoff eluded me. I suppose I could rematch Lizzie Birden Took An Axe video!
(See what my iPad wrote??? I wrote I could rewatch Lizzie Borden- jeesh!)
But I only have it in VHS. Ah, those were the days!
Much of this technical stuff is moot anyway as back then nobody took pictures of the blood spatter anyway. That coupled with the fact that both Bordens had been moved and then repositioned doesn't really give us much to work with with reconstruction. I'm constantly battling the misconception that the killer would be covered with buckets of blood and it would be obvious, but looking at the crime photos we do have, it's obvious that the blood was mostly pooled under the victims heads and only very fine cast off or high velocity spatter is present on the walls and ceilings. I'm sure if one was there at the time, the red dots would be apparent, but in black and white photos it is all but invisible.
"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." Christopher Hitchens
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Kat
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Re: the BLOODY clock

Post by Kat »

Well, it's still a learning experience, to have the appearance of spatter explained. I can use it while solving other crimes! There may have been forensic experts in our video, but we never met them. I suppose I could always take a course, now that I'm retired...
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