Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Hi everyone,

New to this forum, but have had an interest in Lizzie for many, many years. I'm probably not as knowledgeable as many of you, but I hope to be able to contribute.

Right off the bat, I'll ask for some help. I've started a drive to get the 1975 tv movie, THE LEGEND OF LIZZIE BORDEN, starring the late Elizabeth Montgomery, released to home video. I don't know if our efforts will be successful, but I have to try. I really love this movie and think it's a crime that it's never been released.

My petition can be found at:

http://www.petitiononline.com/bevygar/petition.html

If you could "sign" the petition (which takes less than a minute!) it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks for the invitation here, and hope to have something worthy to say soon.

Jim N

Welcome to the Forum Jim. I am wondering; is there is a reason it hasn't been released to home video yet ?


Tracy...

No reason that has even been given. Only a handful of Liz Montgomery's movies are available, and I'm going to change that. :)

Starting with LIZZIE.

Jim

I wrote an e-mail to the Network which produced the movie a couple of years back at the behest of someone here asking for some back-up and the Network never answered.

Anyone is welcome to try. Good luck! And Hello!

PS: I like Vincent Price too. The autobiography he wrote on his deathbed was wonderful! Do you know the name of it?

No, I wasn't aware that Vincent Price wrote an auto bio. A friend of mine wrote a book on his filmography, and Vincent's daughter wrote a bio, but that's all I'm aware of.

jim

I added my name to the petition. Hope it's a success. .

It must be his daughter's book. I think they sat and collaborated? That's the one I mean! Thanks! Do you know the name? I would recommend it to anyone!

I think it's called: Vincent Price - A Daughter's Biography. It's very good.

Thanks. Our family always loved him and that book was just great! I had added him to my list of 36 bios and autobios I had read that year but neglected to put the title, just the subject!

A few months ago I saw the Elizabeth Montgomery Lizzie movie for the first time since it was first aired decades ago. I have to say I had more favorable opinions about the film than negative. I don't know why, but I was expecting a half-assed schlocky production with bad acting and vast historical inaccuracy.

When I watched it, I was impressed with how much they got accurate. There was a lot of dialogue that was lifted straight from the inquest and trial. The acting was exceptional good (I had completely forgotten that Katherine Helmond played Emma and Fritz Weaver played Andrew) and the script was overall a very clever piece of writing.

There are some bones of contention. For example, the layout of the house was completely wrong. THis ordinarily wouldn't cause much stir, but the layout of the Borden House is extremely important in studying the case. In this film, the staircase is too wide, the hallways too expansive, and anyone who has obsessed over the case, visited the house, poured over the floor plans, lived and dreamed the inner architecture of the Borden Home on 2nd Street, would take one look at the film and snort derisively and say, "That's not even close!"

And there is the curious absence of John Morse. He is not even mentioned in the film.

However, all these are trivial, considering what a good dramatic job they did. The big controversy is over two major plot devices.

1) Andrew Borden is shown embalming a dead body in his basement. It's also implied that he has some mild form of necrophilia and he tries to get little Lizzie to touch the dead flesh, a scene that also suggests some form of incestuous eroticism between Andrew and Lizzie. As far I know, Andrew never acted as mortician, merely as the builder of the coffins. And the work wasn't done in his own home. And at the time that Lizzie was as young as she appears in the scene, they would have been living on Ferry St., not 2nd Street where they moved around the time that Lizzie left high school.

2) Lizzie killed her parents while naked so she could quickly wash off the blood and get back into her dress. There are major problems with this theory and I found the film irresponsible for suggesting it. It's not even a serious theory in the Lizzie World since there would have been no time at all to wash off the blood, get back into her dress, hide the murder weapon and get back up to the screen door where the next door neighbor saw Lizzie send Bridget off to get Dr. Bowen. It would be like Lee Harvey Oswald having only 90 seconds to hide the rifle, get down four flights of stairs, and get a coca-cola bottle out of the cafeteria vending machine, drink half of it and sit quietly enough to be found by a policeman.

Anyway, that's my impressions four or five months after seeing the film. I freely admit I saw a bootlegged copy that a friend had bought from EBay. It's illegal, but I couldn't wait to see it. Please forgive my trespasses.

I saw the premiere t.v. presentation in 1975 and remember being excited about much of the dialog being taken directly from testimony. But I would have liked to have seen Morse injected into the plot, primary figure that he was. I thought Fritz Weaver was perfect but Montgomery miscast. I think Bridget was probably very much as she was portrayed.

thanks for the review Richard, well written. I can't
believe I have not seen that film, I've been a nut
about this case for so long yet I haven't seen the
Elizabeth Montgomery movie. When It is for sale on Ebay it is in another language or something! Someday...I'll see it, and that will be a special time,
(popcorn even!)

Well Nancie...it might be your lucky day. This guy is auctioning off some DVD on ebay...says it comes with a 'bonus' Lizzie Borden item. I couldn't resist emailing him to see what this bonus item would be. He said it's a copy of the Legend movie. Go for it.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... RK:MEWA:IT


Tracy...

Hey, a DVD of "The Legend..." movie! That'd be great! I watched my homemade video of it so many times and it's so old that it's pretty crummy now.

I had not thought of the fact that Lizzie would not have been living in the 2nd Street house when she was a kid. I think they lived there about 20 years at the time of the murders, which would have Lizzie about 12 when they moved in, if I'm not mistaken.

I think it was Bob G. who, a while back, pointed out that you can see the California mountains in the background during the movie. He was right!

In Morse's testimony he says that part of 2nd Street was gravel; part was dirt. And 2nd Street was known to be a very busy and noisy street. A lot of people say, "How could they have been murdered and nobody heard anything?!" Lizzie or Bridget may have, but I don't think anyone on the street could have.

Right - Andrew didn't do any embalming. The undertakers of that day would rent chairs for funerals taking place at home. They would sell clothing for the deceased. They would serve as a go-between twixt the decedent's family and the cemetery. The family usually took care of the corpse - washed and dressed it. But I guess if they couldn't bring themselves to do it, the undertaker would do it for a fee and bring the body back to the house. And, of course, they'd orchestrate the funeral procession. Embalming didn't come into being until after Abe Lincoln's death. During the Civil War bodies had to be shipped 'back home' and they started embalming them for that purpose. When Lincoln died, they knew he was going to be shown a few times during the train ride back to Springfield, IL, and they had him embalmed. Actually, he was embalmed a few times, and you can read comments from people who viewed him that say he really looked like a statue.

Yes, it would have been great if they would have showed how the house really was inside in the movie. It really had a lot to do with the whole story. Did they have hallways in the movie?? Ugh. I wonder if the movie people came to Fall River to see the house. I'll bet they did. They probably did the best they could. I hope in a remake they portray the interior as it really is.

When I toured the Helen Keller house in Tuscumbia, AL, I asked the guide if the movie ("The Miracle Worker" - the original one) was filmed there. She said no. But the movie crew came out and took pictures and stuff. She said that the cameras and equipment could not fit in the house.

Actually the nude Lizzie theory is a serious one in the Lizzie world, tho I don't subscribe to it myself. There are a lot of people who think that's what happened. And for the movie, they had to show some type of theory. I think they have a disclaimer on there that says something about the theory being unproven.

I agree - I thought the movie was very well done. Afterwards, when I realized they used real dialogue from the trial I was impressed.

I hope in a remake they make Abby more human. She was not a one-dimensional battle-axe. They did show a few tender moments of Andrew. I think the incest-implying scene was appropriate because that's another theory that a lot of people are into (tho I'm not).

Liz Montgomery "miscast"??? No way. That lady could act. I think she was one of the best. When you saw her in different roles, you could really believe - based on how she performed, not on how she looked so much - that she was that character. Very versatile, and "Lizzie" I think was one of her best roles. Try watching some of her other movie roles, Miller, and perhaps you'll see it.

I don't think the house is conducive, let alone where it sits, is conducive to having a full scale theatrical movie made on site. More likely production would be done in a constructed exact model in a studio. Exterior shots yes, but interiors, I wouldn't think so.

I know of one woman who is beginning to work on a screenplay with the new owners.

I was bothered by the house they used in the movie once I saw what the real Borden home looked like, but, I thought they did a pretty good job with the sets. Two things that always catch my eye are the stained wood doors in Lizzie's room when we know that the doors and trim in the Borden home were painted white. And, the scene where Lizzie kills Abby, if you look over Liz Montgomery's head, you can see the "ceiling" is badly stretched canvas, its all rippled, not stretched tight enough.

Actually we have a DVD of Legend of Lizzie Borden. We have a Euro version of Legend on VHS and just made a DVD with our DVD recorder from the VHS tape. Very easy, and depending upon the quality of your DVD recorder, you get pretty remarkable quality with the DVD. We even had fun making up the scene description menus with our own written commentary. We've played it for dinner guests who also share our interest in unsolved cases of the Victorian era. No need to wait for Paramount to release it. You can make your own for viewing in your home with a DVD Recorder!

augusta @ Mon Feb 21, 2005 11:32 am wrote:Liz Montgomery "miscast"??? No way. That lady could act. I think she was one of the best. When you saw her in different roles, you could really believe - based on how she performed, not on how she looked so much - that she was that character. Very versatile, and "Lizzie" I think was one of her best roles.

I have to agree Augusta. I enjoyed her performance. As Susan and others have pointed out some of the scenery was not Fall River but the costumes were well done. The biggest drawback to the movie was no Uncle John.

It's now been 30 years since that movie was made and it's time for another one on the case.

If nothing else it will give us something to nit-pick!

I bid on the eBay item that had the Lizzie DVD as a bonus, and won it. So I will have a chance to see it for the first time.

Can someone refresh my memory? Did they say that Bridget stayed in the Borden household because of Abby, or was it Lizzie?

Angel, it was Abby whom she was supposedly fond of. The source of this may be an article that appeared in the Fall River Herald, during the Inquest which had the following:

" ... For the last three years she has lived with the Borden family and for some time past has been threatening to return to Ireland. She says that Mrs. Borden was a very kind mistress and that she was much attached to her. Mrs. Borden used to talk to her about going home to Ireland, and used to tell her that she would be lonely without her. Accordingly, the young woman says that she did not have the heart to leave, but she never expected to be in an awful predicament like this. She had been terrified ever since the tragedy, she said. ..."

This same information is in Spiering's book "Lizzie", page 71.

Enjoy the movie!

Thanks, Harry. I also ordered the Lizzie Sourcebook too, so I am looking forward to that also.

Angel,

DId yoy get your Sourcebook yet ? I need to get thet one too.


Tracy...

Tracy-
No, I haven't received it yet. I'm looking forward to it.

Harry - did you know that the seamstress who made the Borden ladies dresses moved in with them for three weeks?

When I was at the Bed and Breakfast a year and a half ago, they had a copy of the tv movie on VHS in the parlor. Anyone could watch it on the tv. I was tempted, but I was too busy exploring the ACTUAL house.

Richard- something I'd like to ask you. Is there a word missing in your signature quote?

"A book shall an axe for the frozen sea within us -- Franz Kafka"

Yes, there was a word missing. Thanks for noticing.

I'm so excited! Today I received both the Lizzie Borden (Eliz. Montgomery) movie and the Lizzie Sourcebook in the mail. My husband thinks I'm nuts, but I don't care.

I feel like watching that again, now!!

I watched the Elizabeth Montgomery film last night. She's very talented, but I couldn't really see her in that role. I think she is too outgoing and up front a person to be cast as Lizzie. I have always visualized the real Lizzie as having a very reserved, quiet personality with a slightly odd, spacey, and sometimes sullen air about her. People picked up on a slight aura of strangeness with Lizzie, but I didn't feel that with Elizabeth, even when she stood distracted at the door. I could see someone like Melanie Lynsky (the actress that played Pauline in "Heavenly Creatures") or someone like that, if they were to do it again. What do you all think? I do think there was some undercurrents in the movie that they picked up well, like the hint of incest, or some other PTSD Lizzie may have had from childhood.
Maybe I've worked in psych too long.

I think anyone who plays Lizzie would have to really
study the case first. like Cherize Theron (sp?) was
able to nail down Aileen Wournos. I could picture
maybe Jody Foster or Madona pulling it off if they did the homework. (Tracy could co-direct)

Yes, I could see Jodie Foster doing it.

Co-director ...hmmm...that might be fun. I think playing Lizzie would be fun too. Who from the forum would play the other s ? (Haven't we talked about this before...didn't Chris mention this ?)


Tracy...

just some trivia i did not know until today: i was looking at the cast list -- apparently, the woman in the shop who tells the merchant, "Miss Borden took something" -- that is the old lady in "Titanic."

i think april 15th is elizabeth montgomery's birthday.

For some odd reason, I always pictured Kathy Bates as good choice for the role of Lizzie.

Kathy did a bang up job of playing the "unsinkable" Molly Brown. I think she would really play Lizzie well. She is an excellent actress, and her acting range is pretty broad.She can do a comedy, a drama, and play a psycho all with the same believability. I had never thought of that before, but now that I pictured it, I cannot picture anyone else.

Thanks for being in agreement Allen. I always pictured her as Lizzie for some reason. Some roles were just made for certian actors. This is one.

OK...I agree too. Kathy Bates would be great...very intense.


Tracy...

I think Kathy Bates is a wonderful actress, though I always pictured her more as Abby. I think she would do a tremendous job at bringing depth to the portrayal of Abby instead of that 2 dimensional, evil stepmother thing. Though in either role, we couldn't lose!

I like that idea better too, Susan, particularly since you've shown the similarities between the two. Bates I think would put some bone behind the flesh of Abby Borden better than almost anyone else.

kathy bates I'll go with that, and I agree she could play either part well

jimrnemeth @ Sun Feb 06, 2005 5:03 pm wrote:Hi everyone,

New to this forum, but have had an interest in Lizzie for many, many years. I'm probably not as knowledgeable as many of you, but I hope to be able to contribute.

Right off the bat, I'll ask for some help. I've started a drive to get the 1975 tv movie, THE LEGEND OF LIZZIE BORDEN, starring the late Elizabeth Montgomery, released to home video. I don't know if our efforts will be successful, but I have to try. I really love this movie and think it's a crime that it's never been released.

My petition can be found at:

http://www.petitiononline.com/bevygar/petition.html

If you could "sign" the petition (which takes less than a minute!) it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks for the invitation here, and hope to have something worthy to say soon.

Jim N

Thats great! I think I have seen that movie, or maybe it just sounds familar to me or something. But at any rate welcome to the board.

Yes I think that Kathy Bates would make a good Abbey.

Donald and I have already tossed around who we'd like to be in our movie. As of now, our dream cast is: Kathy Bates as Abby, James Woods as Andrew (I've already asked him) Drew Barrymore as Lizzie and Jody Foster as Emma. Does anyone have any other nominations for the cast?

Uncle John - - - Christopher Walken.


Tracy...

what about DeNiro as Knowlton?

I actually do this alot for certain true life stories. I try to think of who should play who if it were a movie I was making. I had never thought of Kathy Bates until it was suggested though. I always try to think of who could both look as well as act the part the best, who would really bring it to life. I look at the face, and the actor who looks the most like them, and then I think of their acting abilities. I have to say Bridget Sullivan has always stumped me. I cannot think of who should play her, I never could. Any ideas?

Andrew Borden- Bernard Hill ( Capt. Smith in Cameron's Titanic)

Abby Borden - Kathy Bates

Lizzie Borden - Julianne Moore

Emma Borden - Susan Lynch ( Elizabeth Stride in From Hell)

Uncle John- Ian Holm ( Jack the Ripper also From Hell)

Bridget Sullivan -

Hannah Reagan - Francis Fisher

Is there a budget for James Woods?

I think unknowns should be cast- after all, the Bordens were unknowns to the world before they *started*..

Who you choose to play Lizzie has got to have those eyes.

Not to sound like a broken record, but, I still think that Kate Winslet would make a fine Lizzie. Granted, her eyes are the wrong color, but, nothing that color contacts couldn't take care of.

I still think Hillary Swank would make a great Lizzie. True, she doesn't have Lizzie's eyes, but her face does have that kind of masculine strength that Lizzie's does, and Ms. Swank is such a "swanky" actress that I'm sure she could convince us. She was in that thing about suffragettes, and she looked right in period clothes too. Alas, movies don't usually get cast the way they should. Either somebody is looking for a "property" for himself/herself, or somebody's agent manages to sell a client to the powers that be. - Or they're like Hitchcock, who famously said Tippi Hedren was the best actress he could afford with the budget he had. There are some interesting little tidbits about the cast of the "Legend" movie. There might have been a little nepotism at work in one case, for example. I don't see anybody too conventionally pretty being cast as Lizzie. I did think Liz Montgomery somewhat resembled Lizzie, but more glamorous. In general I liked her portrayal, but Fionnuala Flanagan made a great Bridget. John Zaremba (Judge Blaisdell) wasn't too shabby either.