Cooking Hearth Found At Donner Party Site

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Fri Jul 16, 2004 3:21 am

TRUCKEE, Calif. - Archaeologists have unearthed a cooking hearth in the Sierra Nevada where they believe the Donner Party gathered for meager meals in the months before starvation led to the country’s most famous tale of cannibalism.

They have found what they believe to be human bone fragments at the site.

For the rest of the story, click here:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5444733/

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Fri Jul 16, 2004 4:04 pm

Thanks Susan, that's an interesting discovery. It's hard to even imagine how rough it must have been to be trapped and left no choice.

I was just on the FR Police Dept. web site and down at the bottom there is a link to a web site that discusses another cannibal, Alferd Parker. Not on Fall River but Colorado.

http://www.roadsideamerica.com/set/MEATpacker.html

Colorado seems quite proud of him. And they say we Bordenites are nuts

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Fri Jul 16, 2004 7:25 pm

Thanks, Harry, another Victorian cannibal story and this one with an ax in it to boot! It doesn't say why this guy ate his victims though? Ugh, the restaurant is a bit much, but, if it doesn't bother people to eat meat there and think of this guy, they're welcome to it. Which just made me wonder, did the Lizzie B&B serve cold mutton along with their breakfast menu?

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Thu Sep 23, 2004 8:00 pm

The Donner Party is a heck of a story. "American Experience" did a show on it a few years ago. Incredible.

lydiapinkham · Post by **lydiapinkham** » Sun Sep 26, 2004 12:56 am

Can't remember which university it was, but probably the one nearest the site used to call their cafeteria Donner Hall (if memory serves after 20 years). I wonder if they still do?

--Lyddie

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 3:48 am

Lyddie, thats kind of sad and kind of grisly all at once that there is a cafeteria named in remembrance of the Donner party. Nice idea, but, it doesn't sound as if they gave much thought to the subject matter. Do you know which state it was in?

lydiapinkham · Post by **lydiapinkham** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 11:21 am

No, Susan, I don't remember school or state. But keep in mind that it was a university cafeteria--maybe only referred to as "Donner," not emblazoned with the name. I just figure it makes sense with college kids--it's the kind of shock effect joke kids make at that age (I know I would have). It is a bit cruel and certainly tasteless (no pun intended), but pretty typical college humor.

--Lyddie

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 12:41 pm

You might mean the Alferd Packer cafeteria grill at the Univ. of Colorado at Boulder.

See this site: http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Alferd_Packer

They even erected a statue to him on campus!!!

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Tue Sep 28, 2004 9:59 pm

Ah, I see what you mean, Lyddie! Maybe the food was that disgusting that the students likened it to cannibalism? I remember my highschool cafeteria had meat the likes of which we had never seen and refered to it as "Mystery Meat". Was it cat, was it dog, was it horse?

Thanks, Harry. Boy, that guy looks scary! Made me wonder how many cases there are of Victorian cannibalism, might make an interesting search.

lydiapinkham · Post by **lydiapinkham** » Thu Sep 30, 2004 7:48 am

Exactly, Susan! Yes, Harry, that's it! I'd forgotten it was actually named for Packer and that they had a statue--read about it many years ago. It is pretty amazing that the school went along with the statue, but time removes the sting of crime: just look at us with Lizzie!

A cannibalism survey might be interesting. I remember one famous case at sea. . . I'd have to track it down; I forget the names. Seems to me the court ruled for clemency. However, they feasted on a death by natural causes, I believe. Packer was a meat packer for the living.

--Lyddie

doug65oh · Post by **doug65oh** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 2:04 am

Hark!! What's this?? Cannibalism at Sea? Why the very thought almost makes me want to...sing!! Ahhhh yes, you may say "Good God, he's cracked his nut!" but of a story I have heard tell. 'Twas penned by one Billy Gilbert -

"The Yarn Of the Nancy Bell"

'Twas on the shores that round our coast
From Deal to Ramsgate span,
That I found alone on a piece of stone
An elderly naval man.

His hair was weedy, his beard was long,
And weedy and long was he,
And I heard this wight on the shore recite,
In a singular minor key:

"Oh, I am a cook and a captain bold,
And the mate of the Nancy's brig,
And a bo'sun tight, and a midshipmite,
And the crew of the captain's gig."

And he shook his fists and he tore his hair,
Till I really felt afraid,
For I couldn't help thinking the man had been drinking,
And so I simply said:

"O, elderly man, it's little I know
Of the duties of men of the sea,
But I'll eat my hand if I understand
How ever you can be

"At once a cook, and a captain bold,
And the mate of the Nancy's brig,
And a bo'sun tight, and a midshipmite,
And the crew of the captain's gig."

Then he gave a hitch to his trousers, which
Is a trick all seamen larn,
And having got rid of a thumping quid,
He spun this painful yarn:

"‘Twas in the good ship Nancy Bell
That we sailed the Indian sea,
And there on a reef we come to grief,
Which has often occurred to me.

"And pretty nigh all the crew was drowned
(There was seventy-seven o' soul),
And only ten of the Nancy's men
Said 'Here!' to the muster-roll.

"There was me and the cook and the captain bold,
And the mate of the Nancy's brig
And the bo'sun tight, and a midshipmite,
And the crew of the captain's gig.

"For a month we'd neither wittles nor drink,
Till a-hungry we did feel,
So we drawed a lot, and accordin' shot
The captain for our meal.

"The next lot fell to the Nancy's mate,
And a delicate dish he made;
Then our appetite with the midshipmite
We seven survivors stayed.

"And then we murdered the bo'sun tight,
And he much resembled pig,
Then we wittled free, did the cook and me,
On the crew of the captain's gig.

"Then only the cook and me was left,
And the delicate question, 'Which
Of us two goes to the kettle?' arose
And we argued it out as sich.

"For I loved that cook as a brother, I did,
And the cook he worshipped me;
But we'd both be blowed if we'd either be stowed
In the other chap's hold, you see.

"'I'll be eat if you dines off me,' says Tom,
'Yes, that,' says I, 'you'll be,' --
'I'm boiled if I die, my friend,' quoth I,
And 'Exactly so,' quoth he.

"Says he, 'Dear James, to murder me
Were a foolish thing to do,
For don't you see that you can't cook me,
While I can -- and will -- cook you!'

"So he boils the water, and takes the salt
And the pepper in portions true
(Which he never forgot) and some chopped shallot
And some sage and parsley too.

"'Come here,' says he, with a proper pride,
Which his smiling features tell,
' 'Twill soothing be if I let you see,
How exceedingly nice you'll smell.'

"And he stirred it round and round and round,
And he sniffed at the foaming froth;
When I ups with his heels, and smothers his squeals
In the scum of the boiling broth.

"And I eat that cook in a week or less,
And -- as I eating be
The last of his chops, why, I almost drops,
For a wessel in sight I see!

"And I never grin, and I never smile,
And I never larf nor play,
But I sit and croak, and a single joke
I have -- which is to say:

"Oh, I am a cook and a captain bold,
And the mate of the Nancy's brig,
And a bo'sun tight, and a midshipmite,
And the crew of the captain's gig!"

(William S. Gilbert)

http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~emma/poetry/gilbert.html

(Thought I was kiddin' didn't ya??)

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 6:47 am

Good stuff Doug! I had never seen that in its entirety before.

Gives ordering a plate of ribs new meaning! Bad Harry, bad.

lydiapinkham · Post by **lydiapinkham** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 12:48 pm

Oh, thank you, Doug! Only W. S. could have penned such a devilish delightful air!

--Lyddie

Nancie · Post by **Nancie** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 3:30 pm

I love it

FairhavenGuy · Post by **FairhavenGuy** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 6:38 pm

Lyddie,

I, too, remember a cannibalistic shipwreck story, but I don't recall if it was of local origin or not. A whaling voyage? I'll have to try to find it. . .

doug65oh · Post by **doug65oh** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 6:54 pm

Could it be the wreck of the whaler Essex (ca. 1820)? Looking for more in that regard. The First Mate was a gent named Owen Chase, who told the tale in "Narratives of the whaleship Essex" ....

Here's a link
http://doug-jersey.freeservers.com/imag ... 201820.htm

doug65oh · Post by **doug65oh** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 7:05 pm

A wee bit more on the Essex and her demise - from the BBC

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A671492

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 7:19 pm

Doug, I have a paperback book "The Terrible Voyage" by Edwin P. Hoyt which covers the Essex and its aftermath.

It was put out by Pinnacle Books in 1976. 154 pages, some sketches.

Lots of used copies available on bookfinder. com

http://www.bookfinder.com/search/?ac=sl ... 51_1:39:58

doug65oh · Post by **doug65oh** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 8:12 pm

Thanks, Harry.

I'll have to give it a peek. I see bookfinder also has copies of the book by Owen Chase, too.

FairhavenGuy · Post by **FairhavenGuy** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 9:44 pm

Yup. It was the Essex I was thinking of. Thanks guys!

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 9:49 pm

Thanks for that, Doug65Oh, that was pretty neat! Puts me in mind of another thats similar from Sweeney Todd:

A LITTLE PRIEST
Seems a downright shame. Shame?
Seems an awful waste.
Such a nice plump frame
Wot's 'is name has... had... has...
nor it can't be traced.
Bus'ness needs a lift...
Debts to be erased...
Think of it as thrift, as a gift...
If you get my drift... No?

Seems an awful waste.
I mean, with the price of meat what it is,
When you get it,
If you get it... Ah!

Good, you got it.
Take, for instance,
Mrs. Mooney and her pie shop.
Bus'ness never better, using only pussy cats and toast.
Now a pussy's good for maybe six or seven at the most.
And I'm sure they can't compare as far as taste...

Mrs. Lovett, What a charming notion,
Eminently practical and yet,
Appropriate, as always.
Mrs. Lovett, how I've lived without you,
All these years I'll never know!
How delectable!
Also undetectable.

Well it does seem a waste...
How choice!
How rare!

Think about it!
Lots of other gentlemen'll soon be coming for a shave.
Won't they?
Think of all them pies...

For whats the sound of the world out there?
What, Mister Todd,
What, Mister Todd,
What is that sound?

Those crunching noises pervading the air?
Yes, Mister Todd,
Yes, Mister Todd,
Yes, all around...

Its man devouring man, my dear,
and who are we to deny it in here?
Then who are we to deny it in here?

What is that?
It's priest.
Have a little priest.
Is it really good?
Sir, it's too good, at least.
Then again they don't commit sins of the flesh,
So it's pretty fresh.

Awful lot of fat.
Only where it sat.
Haven't you got poet or something like that?
No, you see the trouble with poet is,
How do you know it's deceased?
Try the priest.

Lawyer's rather nice.
If its for a price.
Order something else though to follow,
Since none should swallow it twice.
Anything thats lean...
Well then, if you're British and loyal,
You might enjoy Royal Marine...

Anyway, it's clean...
Though, of course, it tastes of wherever it's been...
Is that squire on the fire?

Mercy no, sir, look closer,
You'll notice it's grocer.
Looks thicker, more like vicar.

No, it has to be grocer-its green.
The history of the world, my love-
Save alot of graves, do the relatives favors...
-is those below serving those up above.
...Everybody shaves, so there should be plenty of flavors...
How gratifying to know
that those above will serve those down below

etc.etc.etc

FairhavenGuy · Post by **FairhavenGuy** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 9:55 pm

My gosh, Susan, I've been humming that for the last twenty minutes and just came back here to post a bit of it.

I had the pleasure of seeing George Hearn and Angela Lansbury performing it in Boston years ago. My favorite musical of ALL TIME!

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 3:33 am

Great minds think alike.

Isn't it a catchy tune? Its one of my favorite musicals also, I got to see it on KPBS with the original cast with Angela Lansbury and Len Cariou. But, not quite as thrilling as getting to see it in person, I'm sure! Angela Lansbury is wonderful as Mrs. Lovett!

Heres a recipe for a traditional meat pie:

Chatwettys-Traditional Meat Pie

A 15th-century recipe, not Mrs. Lovett's.
Serves 8.

1 pound pork or veal, cubed
1 cup water
Pastry for 8-inch double pie crust
6 tablespoons chopped dates
6 tablespoons currants
2 teaspoons salt
5 saffron threads
1 teaspoon ground ginger
1 teaspoon black pepper
1 teaspoon ground mace
1 teaspoon ground cloves
1 cup red wine
1 tablespoon wine vinegar
10 egg yolks

1. In saucepan, simmer meat in water 20 minutes. Drain.
2. Line 8-inch square baking dish with pastry.
3. In medium-sized bowl, combine meat, dates and currants. Place meat mixture into pastry-lined dish.
4. In same bowl, combine salt, saffron, ginger, pepper, mace, cloves, wine, vinegar and 9 egg yolks, reserving 1 yolk.
5. Pour mixture over the meat.
6. Cover with top crust, crimp well, make triangular cuts in center and fold tips back.
7. Beat reserved yolk and brush on crust. Bake at 375°F until crust is browned and meat is heated through, 25 to 30 minutes.

From this site:

http://www.pbs.org/kqed/demonbarber/

lydiapinkham · Post by **lydiapinkham** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 9:25 am

You lucky duck, Chris to have been able to see the original Broadway Sweeney. It is my all time favorite too! Like Susan, I saw and taped the broadcast version with Lansbury and Hearn; then later, Hearn with Lupone, who does a much blousier version (I like both of them, really). I've got the soundtrack to the original and will have to put it on!

Thank you, Doug, for digging up the seafaring story. How ironic to think they changed course to [/i]avoid cannibals!

Her's another classic that is probably mythical but was in all the old English crime books: Sawney Beane of Scotland. He and his wife and incestuous children and various descendants were said to have lived in a cave on the moors, where they preyed upon unsuspecting passersby. Finally, a victim was said to have escaped to raise the alarm. The cave was said to contain the bones of hundreds of victims, which comprised to whole of their diet. No one has ever tracked down a primary resource for this bogey tale. I'll try to scan in the story if I can find it among my dusty volumes!

--Lyddie

doug65oh · Post by **doug65oh** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 9:12 pm

Your guess on ye auld Scotsman Beane and his doin's bein' mythical was apparently correct according to at least one (alleged, I must say at this point) reliable source, Lyds. At http://www.skcentral.com/beane.html sez the following:

A Note From Author Colin Wilson:

Afraid the Sawney Bean story is pure myth - I'm afraid I was partly responsible for not realising this when I included him in my Encyclopedia of Murder.

Colin Wilson

(At least one other source I've noted here on Sawney Beane tells the same tale as at the link above, also - verbatim.)

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 10:26 pm

Thanks Lyddie and Doug, yes, the tale of Sawney Bean was alleged to be one of the sources for the tale of Sweeney Todd, there are others:

There are several well-documented contemporaneous crimes that share similar themes with the Sweeney Todd legend and could possibly have served as inspiration for Thomas Prest. In December 1784, The Annual Register reported on a barbarous barber near Fleet Street who, in a jealous rage, cut his victim's throat from ear to ear before disappearing into the night.

Read the actual newspaper article.

The Newgate Calendar (or Malefactor's Bloody Register), a five-volume biographical record of notorious criminals housed at Newgate Prison published in the late 1700s, recounted the gruesome story of the renowned (and curiously, similarly named) mass-murderer Sawney Bean, the "Man-Eater of Scotland." Bean was executed along with his entire family for robbing passers-by, then murdering the victims and eating the corpses.

Joseph Fouche, who served as Minister of Police in Paris from 1799 to 1815, graphically documented in his Archives of the Police a series of murders committed in 1800 by a Parisian barber. Fouche wrote that the barber was in league with a neighboring pastry cook, who made pies out of the victims and sold them for human consumption. While there is some speculation about the authenticity of this account, the story was republished in 1824 under the headline "A Terrific Story of the Rue de Le Harpe, Paris" in The Tell Tale, a London magazine. Perhaps Thomas Prest, scouring publications for ideas, read about the Paris case and stored it away for later use.

Or perhaps Prest was inspired by a libel suit in 1818 against scandalmonger James Catnatch. Catnatch regularly published rumors, innuendo, false stories and outrageous headlines to drum up business for his one-page news sheets. One banner declaring "A Number of Human Bodies Found in the Shop of a Pork Butcher" nearly drove Drury Lane butcher Thomas Pizzey out of business. Pizzey filed a libel suit against Catnatch in retaliation, which focused a great deal of attention on the publisher's corrupt catchpenny tricks. Court documents described Catnatch as an "evil, wicked" person with a "malicious mind and disposition." The butcher's good name was ultimately restored when the Clerkenwell Court found the publisher guilty and sentenced him to six months in the House of Correction for his crime.

From this site:

http://www.pbs.org/kqed/demonbarber/pen ... inals.html