JonBenet Recent Online Q&A

[Franz]

I have two questions:

1. Could the DNA evidence be faked to protect the Ramseys?

2. Even if the DNA evidence is affidable, why could the presence of this person exclude definitely the presence of the Ramseys on the scene of the murder? Why couldn't they have acted all toghther? The police --- automaticly --- exonerated Ramseys because they found the DNA of an unknown male, this is not logic for me.

[twinsrwe]

If John and Patsy were loving,doting parents, who was interfering with Jonbonet (IF she was being regularly sexually assaulted and not just suffering bed wetting problems.) Was it her brother? In that case why would the little girl not tell her mother? …

Within in link I provided above, it states: Remember that at the autopsy upon her death, the coroner found her vaginal opening was twice the size of a normal 6-year-old’s, as well as evidence of repeated sexual trauma.

Who was sexually assaulting JonBenét is unknown. Usually, but not always, the child or young person causing the harm is older than the victim. In 90% of child sexual abuse cases, the child knows and trusts the person who sexually abuses them. Children who are sexually assaulted are extremely close-mouthed about issues involving sex, for a number of reasons.

There are many reasons why children may find it very difficult to tell anyone that they are being abused, whether by an adult or by another child. Most children do not tell anyone about sexual abuse before they become adults themselves. Some common reasons why children do not tell include:

• Children may not understand that the behavior is inappropriate or harmful.
• Sometimes they want to protect the other child or youth, whom they may care about, or they do not want to upset the adults with troubling information.
• Children may feel guilty or that they are to blame for the interaction.
• A child may hope that if he or she is “good enough,” the harmful behavior will stop on its own.
• Children may feel obligated to remain silent, having received a combination of gifts, treats, and threats about what will happen if they say “no” or tell someone. Threats may include physical harm to the victim, a relative or a pet, or breakup of the family.
• Children may feel embarrassment about what is happening or fear that they will not be believed.
• Sometimes, a child may be confused by suggestions that they enjoyed the sexual interaction and wanted it to happen.
• The child who is harmed may be confused about his or her feelings and be persuaded that what is happening is “okay” or that “everyone is doing it,” particularly if another child or adolescent initiates the sexual behaviors.
• Very young or disabled children may not have the words or means of communication to let people know what is going on.

http://tinyurl.com/px9w7fm


A few reasons from my own personal experience:

• The perpetrator threatened me; if I told he’d beat me to a bloody pulp.
• I was guilt-ridden, and thought I was to blame.
• I felt dirty and was sure I’d go to h___ for being a bad girl.
• I thought I had committed an unforgivable sin.
• I was afraid of being punished by my parents for my ‘sin’
• My parents taught us that sex is a taboo subject, and it was never to be discussed.
• I felt trapped.

[twinsrwe]

Thank you very much, twinsrwe. You are always so helpful.

You're welcome, Franz. Thank you for the compliment.

[Franz]

http://educate-yourself.org/cn/jonbentr ... tual.shtml

This is a link given by twinsrwe. At the beginning of the point (9), one reads:

After the Police arrived, John Ramsey went directly to the location of JonBenet's body (without searching in any other location). The only way this is possible is if he already had knowledge of it's (location).

What about uncle John? LOL.

[twinsrwe]

http://educate-yourself.org/cn/jonbentr ... tual.shtml

This is a link given by twinsrwe. At the beginning of the point (9), one reads:

After the Police arrived, John Ramsey went directly to the location of JonBenet's body (without searching in any other location). The only way this is possible is if he already had knowledge of it's (location).

What about uncle John? LOL.

You lost me on this one, Franz.

[Franz]

twinsrwe, the link is http://tinyurl.com/lv8e4oq

[debbiediablo]

I'm reading Dark Dreams: Sexual Violence, Homicide and the Criminal Mind by Roy Hazelwood. From the descriptions of crimes where Hazelwood has consulted it becomes readily apparent that a 10 year-old could sexually molest and murder his younger sister in the same ways JonBenet suffered. Not saying that Burke did this although he seems (to me) to be the only perpetrator that both parents would cover for. My viewpoint is the killer was either Burke or (somehow) an outsider who committed the perfect crime. I don't see either Patsy or John Ramsey conspiring to cover protect the other, but I do see them recognizing that at age nine in Colorado Burke would be placed in long-term therapy and possibly a foster home or psychiatric facility. They could provide the best possible treatment and supervision money could buy without having their son labeled as the boy who molested and murdered his 6 year-old pageant queen sister.

[Curryong]

I agree, Debbie, although I, of course, am speaking as a person totally unqualified in this area. It just seems to me that, if Patsy wrote the ransom note, it could be read in any other way, bizarre response though it was. Patsy would be especially disinclined to involve herself in the coverup to help John out, IMO.

Of course, rather like the Bordens, there were some very strange dynamics being played out in that family. Has there ever been any whisper of the Ramseys seeking psychiatric care for Burke in the years afterwards, I wonder?

Franz, what if John had been told by his young son where to find Jonbenet's body?

[debbiediablo]

John Ramsey and Fleet White both did an individual cursory search of the house; White's daughter who was JonBenet's age had disappeared the year before and was then found napping in a closet so he investigated despite the ransom note and probably to "do something." White didn't look in the wine cellar because the door was fastened shut from the outside; Ramsey glanced in but due to the darkness and construction of the entrance he failed to see her body. Later in the morning John disappeared for another long period of time. Some people believe he found her body at that time. Later Ramsey and White searched together and found her. Patsy was wearing the same clothing and make-up as from the night before, and friends say she never ever wore the same outfit twice in a row. Some people believe that she was up all night first because she was packing to fly to Michigan the following day and then to either murder JonBenet in a fit of rage or to cover up Burke's crime. Although the 911 recording may indicate Burke's presence downstairs, he was left "sleeping' in his second floor bedroom until White drove him to the White residence before the discovery of JonBenet's body...and perhaps to prevent the police from questioning him once it became a murder rather than kidnapping.

[Curryong]

If Patsy was the murderer, or couldn't sleep because she was planning murder, surely she would have been careful to present a normal appearance to everyone concerned and that includes taking off the war paint of the day before? Ugh, I hardly ever wear makeup but the idea of not removing it at night is pretty repulsive.

This gets weirder by the hour. What was Patsy doing all night? Neither John or Palsy took Jonbonet into the countryside and buried her somewhere remote. She was found in her home, near loved ones, and I think that's quite significant too.

What was Jonbonet's estimated time of death? Had she been killed by Burke in the late evening of the day before and the parents discovered what he had done? Was she killed in her bedroom by Burke and then removed by John into the wine cellar during the night? Was he 'checking' on her in that long disappearance the next day? I presume that was when that sole policewoman was present. Why didn't she follow him?

So many questions!!

Fleet White (evocative name) appears to be an exceptional friend to the Ramseys. Does his behaviour then and afterwards give any clue?

[twinsrwe]

twinsrwe, the link is http://tinyurl.com/lv8e4oq

Yes, I read the contents of this link. The thing I am confused about is this:

... After the Police arrived, John Ramsey went directly to the location of JonBenet's body (without searching in any other location). The only way this is possible is if he already had knowledge of it's (location).

What about uncle John? LOL.

What is your point about Uncle John? I know you placed a ;LOL' after your statement, but I'm interested in know what you were thinking.

[twinsrwe]

The more I study the JonBenét Ramsey murder case, the more I tend to think that Burke was the perpetrator.

[debbiediablo]

John Ramsey didn't go 'directly' to her body; that's an oversimplification. The police had been there since before 7 AM but not in the numbers needed for a proper investigation. The time for the ransom call came and went although there was some confusion about whether it would come that morning or the following morning as the time JonBenet went missing had not been established. Later, her time of death was set between 11 PM and 2 AM, give or take. The coroner failed to take her internal temperature before moving the body out of the house; and it had already been moved by John from the coolness of the wine cellar.

Finally, Linda Arndt suggested that John and Fleet search the house starting with the third floor. Instead of this, they went to the basement and checked the bathroom, laundry room, train room and finally the wine cellar where her body was unseeable in the dark and easily visible once the light was turned on. Earlier, White opened the door, couldn't find the light switch, and then decided not to search since it had been locked with a wooden block from the outside. So these two didn't go directly to the body, but they didn't start on the third floor as directed either. I can understand this given that John and Patsy's bedroom/bathrooms/dressing areas/office occupied the entire third floor, and they had already searched the second floor.

Fleet White was an excellent friend who ultimately came under suspicion along with almost everyone else the family knew in Colorado. He confronted John following the funeral, begging him and Patsy to work with police to find JonBenet's killer. When the Ramseys continued to avoid being interviewed by Boulder Police and DA, White and his wife Priscilla grew so angry at what they viewed as obstruction of justice that they wrote an open letter to the Boulder newspaper, to the governor and to other influential persons - the letter demanded appointment of a special prosecutor and the seating of a grand jury to examine evidence, subpoena the Ramseys to testify and determine whether indictment(s) should be handed down. Fleet comes off as admirable as John does weaselly.

[Franz]

debbiediablo, if I understood corrrectly the article of the link quoted above, the author is talking about here the second reserch --- after the arrival of the police enforcement. And in this second time, John went directly to the wine cellar where the little girls' body was lying. Correct me if I am in error.

[Franz]

twinsrwe, I invite you to read this thread of mine, and I would be happy to know what you think about.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5204

That's why, twinsrwe, the phrase of my signature reads as follwows: "Mr. Morse, please tell us who informed you about the location of Mr. Borden's body."

No one never gave me an answer. And myself I never found any, either.

[debbiediablo]

debbiediablo, if I understood corrrectly the article of the link quoted above, the author is talking about here the second reserch --- after the arrival of the police enforcement. And in this second time, John went directly to the wine cellar where the little girls' body was lying. Correct me if I am in error.

According to both Kolar and Thomas:

It's an oversimplification to say that Ramsey went to directly to JonBenet's body. Fleet White was with John and they quickly worked their way through the basement from the stairs located on the SE side of the house, past the bathroom where one glance could tell no one was hidden there, to the hobby room aka train room (including closets) and then into the storage room beyond.

This is the room where the possible entrance/exit through a north window has been discussed. Neither the vegetation nor the spider web in this window area were disturbed although the window was open a crack. Marks on the wall could have come from someone using the wall for traction while crawling out, and a suitcase sat under the window. Pictures of the basement show stuff scattered all over; the Ramseys were messy so the suitcase is not the only object sitting in an odd place. This window had been broken by John Ramsey the previous summer when he locked himself out. The marks on the wall could've been made by Ramsey. He admitted that he likely left it unlocked and forgot to repair the broken glass which was large enough for a hand.

They then proceeded out and down the hall into the utility/furnace area. JonBenet is believed to have been killed on the hall carpet in the doorway to the wine cellar...and finally into the wine cellar where her body was found slightly around the corner at #6. Although they did not go directly to her body, they weren't gone long either.

Ramsey Basment.JPG

[Franz]

Thank you for your enlightment, debbiediablo. It seems to me that you have a great knowledge on this case. Would you like to confirm me:

1. Is the evidence of the spider web reliable?

2. It is said no footprint was found on the snow on the ground through which that the intruder, if any, might escape. Is it true?

3. More than one neighnor testified they heard a sceam at about midnight, meanwhile the Ramseys denied to have heared any strange noise. Is it true? If true, is the testimony of these neighbors reliable?

If all your answers are affirmative, it would be difficult for me to see the intruder theory.

[Curryong]

Thanks Debbie. As always, prompt and concise! How I wish I had that gift! 'Smile'.

[debbiediablo]

1. Is the evidence of the spider web reliable?

2. It is said no footprint was found on the snow on the ground through which that the intruder, if any, might escape. Is it true?

3. More than one neighnor testified they heard a sceam at about midnight, meanwhile the Ramseys denied to have heared any strange noise. Is it true? If true, is the testimony of these neighbors reliable?

If all your answers are affirmative, it would be difficult for me to see the intruder theory.

1. Everyone agrees there was a spider web in the window. Pro-intruderists say it could have remained undisturbed while someone climbed in and out. The window is small, barely big enough for a small man so this seems unlikely to me. Boulder Police contacted university etymologists who said Colorado weather at that time was not warm enough for the spider(s) to reweave the web. This confuses me because I (who abhor bugs) figured the spider would be dead like Charlotte. No one thought to take a picture of this window with the web!! (Echoes of 1892)

2. The approach to that window is via a wide sidewalk that had been cleared. There doesn't appear to be much snow elsewhere either. A picture of the area between the window well and the sidewalk show what appears to be undisturbed vegetation. To crawl into the window a person would need to remove the grill from the window well and then slither through the small window. And then slither back out which would be much more challenging. Both John Ramsey when locked out and investigator Lou Smit managed to get in; Smit managed to get out. Remember that the ransom note says "We" which begs the question how many people crawled in and out of that window. And exactly how and why they planned to remove a kidnapped JonBenet. Why not open a first floor door and walk out?

3. First one neighbor said no, then yes, then recanted. Another couple also thought they heard something but were older than me, and I can attest to loss of hearing after age 60. It's unlikely that anyone heard a scream, and I think unlikely that JonBenet screamed. Multiple re-enactments have been done with screaming here, there and everywhere. Some can hear it within the house and some cannot. So that remains a big question mark.

Here are photos so you can see for yourselves. The suspect basement window is to the right directly behind the central air unit and under the breakfast room window. The bay across the sidewalk is John's study. This will upload only five photos so the next post will be a floor plan of the first floor.

2 Ramsey sidewalk.jpg

3 Ramsey window well grill.jpg

4 Grill in place.jpg

5 Ramsey window vegetation.jpg

6 Ramsey window interior.jpg

[debbiediablo]

Ramsey house first floor...the circular staircase is where the ransom note was supposedly found. When interviewed, the older son John Andrew Ramsey expressed dismay that a kidnapper or anyone not familiar with the house could find his way around the labyrinth and to that staircase which Patsy used every morning. #6 marks the basement window location.

1 Ramsey house first floor.jpg

[Franz]

Thank you debbiediablo.

It seems to me that, as the picture shoes, the window is big enough to pass throug an adult, but you can't do this whitout disturbing the spider wed, anyway. Right?

[debbiediablo]

I would agree that the web would be a goner after someone crawled in and out...ditto for the vegetation that is seen peeking up below the window well grill. The guy crawling through the window is investigator Lou Smith who, along with John Douglas, is among the few members of law enforcement who believed the Ramseys to be entirely innocent.

Smit was on the smaller side, slightly less than 5'9" and average weight which would be 145-154 (guesstimate based on weight tables). He would've failed the minimum height requirement of 5'9" when applying for his first job. So Smit had a police officer/cousin hit him over the head with a nightstick. He passed measurement the next day due to the bump on the top of his skull.

Although many people disagreed with Smit's conclusions, all of them respected his professionalism and integrity. Not so much for John Douglas. Many of his colleagues felt Douglas dropped the ball, making a decision withou weighing all the evidence or even a modicum of it. As we can see from the window picture, Smit based his decisions on some serious investigation, research and reenactment.

The best JonBenet book I've read is James Kolar's Foreign Faction. Whether or not the reader agrees with his conclusion that Burke was the killer, Kolar does a superb job of of dispassionately laying out the facts.

[twinsrwe]

twinsrwe, I invite you to read this thread of mine, and I would be happy to know what you think about.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5204

That's why, twinsrwe, the phrase of my signature reads as follwows: "Mr. Morse, please tell us who informed you about the location of Mr. Borden's body."

No one never gave me an answer. And myself I never found any, either.

OK, Franz, thank you for your explanation for why you brought up John Morse in this thread. (I provided you with my thoughts on this subject in the link you indicated).

[Franz]

... He would've failed the minimum height requirement of 5'9" when applying for his first job. So Smit had a police officer/cousin hit him over the head with a nightstick. He passed measurement the next day due to the bump on the top of his skull.
...

Therfore, "all of them respected his professionalism and integrity."

[debbiediablo]

... He would've failed the minimum height requirement of 5'9" when applying for his first job. So Smit had a police officer/cousin hit him over the head with a nightstick. He passed measurement the next day due to the bump on the top of his skull.
...

Therfore, "all of them respected his professionalism and integrity."

LOL...Too funny, and your point regarding nightsticks and integrity is well taken Franz. I'm one of those people like Captain Jack Sparrow who viewed the Pirate Code as more like guidelines and less like rules. I'd be less concerned about an applicant being 1/8 of an inch too short than the minimal brain damage and potential personality change caused by a hard whack on the skull.