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JamesInnocentBorden
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I'm new here

Post by JamesInnocentBorden »

I'm just saying hello after joining tonight. I have been interested in Lizzie Borden and Fall River for some time, but just recently discovered that Lizzie is a distant 7th cousin of mine. I'm involved with a lot of genealogy as it is my main hobby. I discovered strong documentation and AncestryDNA that supports the link. My user name is derived from my 6th great grandmother from New Jersey, her name ironically, Innocent Borden, who lived a hundred years before Lizzie was born. I also recently bought the book, 'Parallel Lives' from Fall River which gives great insight into the life of River Falls during the late 1800s and early 1900s. I look forward to learning and being a part of this forum.

James
Last edited by JamesInnocentBorden on Mon May 30, 2016 12:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
Oh, Mrs. Churchill, do come over, someone has killed father.
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twinsrwe
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Re: I'm new here

Post by twinsrwe »

Hello, James, welcome to the forum! You have joined the best Lizzie Borden forum that is available. I hope you find this forum interesting and that it contains a wealth of information regarding the Borden murders

I am so intrigued with you being a 7th cousin of Lizzie, and a 6th great grandson of Innocent Borden! There are threads on the forum where Innocent Borden is mentioned.

The first three threads listed below mention Innocent Borden. The third thread not only mentions Innocent Borden, it also contains genealogy information. The fourth thread listed below, contains a mountain of information and genealogy in attempting to trace Bridget Sullivan’s family. There are several forum members who are very involved in genealogy, so I think you will find these threads interesting.

Eliza Darling Borden and Maria Borden Hinckley, Mother and Daughter: http://tinyurl.com/hohmpce

Sarah Cornell is a relative through Thomas Cornell Jr.: http://tinyurl.com/gkvz8sa

Poll - How interesting is the genealogy in the Borden case?: http://tinyurl.com/hzofwl4

Bridget's Whereabouts
: http://tinyurl.com/gvhwp84

Please feel free to ask questions, make comments, make corrections and post your opinions.
Last edited by twinsrwe on Mon May 30, 2016 11:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
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Re: I'm new here

Post by JamesInnocentBorden »

Thank you for your welcome Judy, and those links. Actually, Innocent Cornell is a different relation from a different lineage. My 6th great grandmother's maiden name is Innocent Borden, and not Cornell. She married John Bozarth of New Jersey. Innocent Borden descends from Richard Borden and Joan Fowle of Rhode Island. Innocent Cornell married Richard Borden (his grandparents, Richard Borden and Joan Fowle, were my 9th great grandparents) and her parents were Thomas Cornell and Sarah Earle. I know it is confusing with two different Innocent names. My 6th great grandmother would be Lizzie Borden's second cousin. I look forward to reading a lot of information here and discuss. :)
Oh, Mrs. Churchill, do come over, someone has killed father.
L.A.B.
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Post by twinsrwe »

You’re welcome, James. I am sorry for jumping to the conclusion that your 6th great grandmother was Innocent Cornell Borden, although I can see now why I was confused. Thank you for clarifying that your 6th great grandmother’s maiden name was Innocent Borden.

This may be a really dumb question, but out of curiosity, are you also related to Innocent Cornell Borden, and if so, how?

I have read that Elizabeth Montgomery, who had the title role in the 1975 movie, The Legend of Lizzie Borden, was a sixth cousin once removed to the real Lizzie Borden. Are you also related to Elizabeth Montgomery?

I am looking forward to hearing more about your family line, and the connection to Lizzie Borden. I did some research and think I may have found information on Innocent Borden and how she is related to Lizzie Borden. If the web site(s) below contain incorrect information, I’d be interested in knowing what the error(s) are.

Lizzie Borden is connected into the Bozarth Line via Innocent Borden (w/o John Bozarth). Line is as follows;

Innocent Borden m. John Bozarth
James Borden m. Mary Lawton (Innocent's Dad)
Benjamin Borden m. Abigaill Grover (Innocent's grandpa)
Richard Borden m. Jane Fowle (Innocent's great grandpa)

Richard and Jane's son
John Borden & Mary Earle (Benjamin's brother)
son- Richard Borden & Innocent Wordell
Son- Thomas Borden & Mary Gifford
Son - Richard Borden & Hope Cooke
Son - Richard Borden Jr. & Martha Bowen
Son - Abraham Borden & Phoebe Davenport
Son - Andrew Jackson Borden & Sarah Morse (Lizzie's parents)
Children of Andrew Jackson Borden & Sarah Morse
- Lizzie Borden
- Emma Borden


Source: http://tinyurl.com/zz6rf69

http://tinyurl.com/h27nbcr

http://tinyurl.com/gw2dx4w

I found this web page confusing, because there are three women list named, Innocent Borden: http://tinyurl.com/zmpbflj

This one is better: http://tinyurl.com/henu2dx

http://tinyurl.com/jczlhrh

http://tinyurl.com/zf76k6r
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
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JamesInnocentBorden
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Re: I'm new here

Post by JamesInnocentBorden »

That's exactly right :) Innocent Borden and John Bozarth (Bozorth) from the information and links you posted. That is supported by other sources I have used also. It was just by a quirk of fate that I'm related to the Bordens. My family is probably the least likely candidate to be related to the Bordens. My maternal line is solid Catholic from St. Mary's County, Maryland. However, my 3rd great grandfather married Rebecca, the daughter of Sarah Bozarth who was living in Kentucky at that time. It appears that Rebecca converted to Catholicism. Her parents were Baptists. Sarah Bozarth's grandmother was Innocent Borden of New Jersey. This added a wonderful rich history to my family tree. Going back further to Richard Borden and Joan Fowle of England, they were settlers in Rhode Island, and of the Quaker faith. There is a wonderful antiquarian book on the Bordens, written in the late 1800s, that traces the Bordens back to the 'de Borden' family of Normandy France in the 1200s.

I'm not related by blood to Innocent Cornell. Her husband, Richard Borden, would be my 1st cousin though. Elizabeth Montgomery starred as Lizzie Borden in the TV movie, The Legend of Lizzie Borden. She never realized in her lifetime that Lizzie Borden was actually her 6th cousin. I can't find any evidence that Elizabeth Montgomery is related to me in anyway. It is possible she could be a very distant cousin if I traced ancestors back to England.

Another really cool connection, however, is by an odd twist of fate. Sir Winston Churchill, Sir Robert Borden (Prime Minister of Canada), Lana Turner, Olive Borden (Silver screen, silent movie star), and Marilyn Monroe are all related to Lizzie Borden. Although, Marilyn Monroe's biological father is not certain, it is highly believed by researchers and by Marilyn herself that it was Stanley Gifford, Lizzie Borden connects to Winston Churchill through his mother Jeanette Jerome, who was an American from New York. Gail Borden the founder of Borden dairy products would be my 5th cousin, and also related to Lizzie.
Oh, Mrs. Churchill, do come over, someone has killed father.
L.A.B.
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Re: I'm new here

Post by twinsrwe »

Wow, what a fantastic family tree history you have, James! Very impressive.

I have a question: You stated that you are not related by blood to Innocent Cornell, but you are a 1st cousin to her husband, Richard Borden. Since Richard died on July 12, 1732, how is it possible that you and Richard are 1st cousins? :scratch:

I knew that Elizabeth Montgomery didn’t know she was related to Lizzie Borden; I wonder how she would have felt if she had known that she was portraying her 6th cousin once removed, when she starred in, The Legend of Lizzie Borden, movie. (BTW, of all the movies on Lizzie Borden, The Legend of Lizzie Borden, is by far my favorite. Elizabeth Montgomery did an outstanding job of portraying Lizzie Borden.) I find it interesting that according to findadeath.com, Elizabeth Montgomery liked being called “Lizzie”. :shock: Source: http://tinyurl.com/5uh35

I did not know that Sir Robert Borden (Prime Minister of Canada), Lana Turner, Olive Borden were also related to Lizzie, However, I knew that Marilyn Monroe was a 5th cousin twice removed to Lizzie Borden, and that Sir Winston Churchill and Gail Borden were also related to her.

There are several thread here on the forum, where Marilyn Monroe is mentioned, and one thread that I know of in which Gail Borden is mentioned:

Cases similar to this one?: http://tinyurl.com/hv3cg2z

Travrl Channel: http://tinyurl.com/h7pu6xe

Does anyone know who this was?: http://tinyurl.com/zhvpqlp

distant relative?: http://tinyurl.com/gsc5rhq

Elsie Borden: http://tinyurl.com/hsdw7u4
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
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JamesInnocentBorden
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Re: I'm new here

Post by JamesInnocentBorden »

Thank you Judy. Actually, there really is nothing extraordinary about my family in terms of genealogy going back a few generations. It is all quite common and mostly farmers. It is not until I dig further back in time that I discover significant historical connections. Actually, anyone with New England, British ancestry will find some amazing discoveries if they go back far enough. You might have a Lizzie connection. You never know :) Richard Borden, my 1st cousin and husband to Innocent Cornell, is my 1st cousin 9 times removed. I left off the 'removed' part, which is the number of generations separating us. We all have 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc cousins going back since the beginning of time.

Thank you again for the links. I read through them. There is a lot to explore. I was hoping to find a connection to Elizabeth Montgomery but it just wasn't to be. She relates to the Bordens on her Luther side of the family. I actually am not all that into the Borden murders themselves although I find it interesting. I'm more into the family history part of the Bordens and their connections, and life in River Falls during that period of time.

Oh, one other interesting coincidence about my genealogy. My 4th cousin, Cornelia Otis Skinner, who was also an actress, author and playwright, is buried in Oak Grove Cemetery in Fall River, with her husband, the very same cemetery as Lizzie Borden and her family.
The Skinners are a 19th century American theatre family, who worked with Edwin Booth for a few seasons. They are not related to the Bordens at all, but are a completely different branch of my family tree. It is just by coincidence that they ended up in the same cemetery as Lizzie Borden.

https://friendsofoakgrovecemetery.org/2 ... s-skinner/
Oh, Mrs. Churchill, do come over, someone has killed father.
L.A.B.
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Re: I'm new here

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You’re welcome James. I knew you had left off the number of times removed, when you stated that Richard Borden was your 1st cousin. Thank you for clarifying that information. My family is of Cornish descendants from Cornwall, England, with a small amount of German and French thrown in. You’re right, I could have a Lizzie connection and don’t realize it. Hmmm, that would be something!

So, you are more interested in the Andrew J. Borden family connections and life in Fall River during their period of time, than the murders themselves. For that kind of information, I highly recommend our forum member whose user name is: mbhenty. He is a highly knowledgeable guy who grew up in Fall River, and now lives in the Davenport house, which is next door to Maplecroft. I’ll send him a private message and see if he would mind jumping in on this thread.
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
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Yes, Twins:

All things Borden are relative here in fall river (Fall River). Unfortunately I have no relatives who have mingled with a Borden.

I came from immigrant stock. I'd be lucky if Lizzie's people even talked to me if I had lived back in her time. Though my last name is suppose to be Portuguese, it sounds more French. So, there must have been some hanky panky sometime in the past. Some French Earl must of visited the island where my past relatives lived and got together with a great grandperson. But if my name is indeed French, I may just be related to a Borden since the Borden name is peppered and salted with French influence if not direct parallels with. As James would know there were/are many spelling variables of the name Borden including, Berden, Bourden, Burdon,Burdune, Burden, and many more.
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Post by twinsrwe »

MB, thank you for joining us on this thread. :grin:

I didn't know there are so many variables of the name Borden. Interesting.
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
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Post by JamesInnocentBorden »

Thank you Judy. My paternal side of the family is solid German. My maternal side is solid English and Scottish. I find some of the most interesting discoveries in my family tree to be the lesser known people, because it is all new and I have never read their stories before. Thank you for introducing mbhenty. I will be posting in the Heritage topic That might be a better place for these posts. I have some questions concerning Jefferson Borden, the yacht designer, and a schooner named Jefferson Borden, which has an interesting history itself.
Oh, Mrs. Churchill, do come over, someone has killed father.
L.A.B.
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Re: I'm new here

Post by JamesInnocentBorden »

Thank you mbhenty for joining in. I may be asking a few questions over on the Heritage section as it might be more appropriate there. I'm in awe that you live in Fall River and next to Maplecroft. I seriously doubt the Bordens or the society of Fall River would have socialized with me too. I come from a solid Catholic background, and I think there was anti-Catholic sentiment in Fall River at that time. About ten days ago I received the Parallel Lives book from Fall River, not exactly the kind of book you can read in one sitting. I do find it fascinating reading about the relations and other families associated with the Bordens and Fall River.

I've come across various spellings of the name 'Borden' in my genealogy research. In the book compiled by Hattie Borden Weld, it states that, "I feel quite sure that the Bordens and Burdens originated in Normandy- and that their original surname was Bourdon"

Source: https://archive.org/details/historicalgeneal00weld Weld, Hattie Borden, Historical and Genealogical Record Of The Descendants as far as Known of Richard and Joan Borden Who Settled in Portsmouth, Rhode Island, May 1638 with Historical and Biographical Sketches of Some of their Descendants.

It's a pleasure to meet you.

James
Oh, Mrs. Churchill, do come over, someone has killed father.
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You’re welcome, James. It is my pleasure to introduce you to mbhenty. He has vast knowledge of Fall River’s history. I always enjoy his posts, because I learn so many unknown tidbits of information about Fall River, it’s historical buildings and the people who lived during Lizzie’s time period. I am looking forward to your questions for MB, regarding Jefferson Borden.

I see you just received your copy of Parallel Lives, which is packed with information about Fall River. I think you will find that Parallel Lives is worth every penny you spent to purchase it, and then some. You’re right, it is not the kind of book you can read in one sitting! :lol:

Another book I highly recommend is Leonard Rebello’s Lizzie Borden: Past & Present. I see Amazon has several buying options for this book: http://tinyurl.com/oh4kf5h

BTW, thank you for the link to the book compiled by Hattie Borden Weld of the Historical and Genealogical Record. :grin:
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
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Thanks James:

Not very schooled on ship building in Fall River as I should.

Col Richard Borden and his brother Jefferson did dabble in ship building, but did not necessarily do so as a business. They were mainly manufacturers. Boat building was just a means to an end. They had goods to sell and needed the transport to get it to market. Col Richard Borden had a grist mill on the Quequechan River and transported their goods on a sloop called the Irene Betsey. They were reported to have built the vessels they used in their business ventures.

Jefferson Borden's son, Jefferson Borden, Jr. did built boats. But he too was mainly into manufacturing. He was trained as a chemist and printing dyes, and attended school in Europe with Spencer Borden's son.

Now as far as the Schooner Jefferson Borden is concerned. I'm not certain of its history, but I don't think it had any connection to the Borden's of Fall River. The Jefferson Borden was built in Kennybuckport, Maine. There are books and articles written about the Jefferson Borden. It was made famous by a mutiny and murder which occurred on the vessel. I am certain if you scrub the internet you will find a lot about it.

Now for some eye candy. Below is a photo of the Richard Borden Mill. It stood on the corner of Plymouth Ave. and Rodman Street and burnt down in the 80s. I was there as the fire just started. Spectacular blaze. Check out the utube link below

The white house below is only a couple of blocks down from Maplecorft. It was the Jefferson Borden house. The Richard Borden house was just a block down the street from his borther's but I think it burnt down in the 40s.

And the third photo is a famous print representation of the Jefferson Borden.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgAhRB_-nis
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Holy Moly, MB, the Richard Borden Mill fire is enormous! :shock: Was that fire due to arson? Thank you for posting the video.

I have been searching for a photo of the Jefferson Borden house; thank you for posting this pic. :grin:
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
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Can't remember what the cause was. There were business in the mill, so people were working there at the time. As a matter of fact I was working across the street in another smaller mill building which housed Mason Furniture, a high end furniture store, at least for fall river. When I was done I came walking out and noticed smoke coming from one of the windows along with a small orange light. The light of course was the fire. In what seemed like 10 or 15 minutes the entire building went up. Never saw a fire travel so fast.

A couple of weeks previous I had worked inside the Richard Borden Mill. I remember the ceiling around where the fire started was a huge tangle of wires. I remember thinking, "there's a recipe for a fire." Weather that was the cause or not, I don't know. But chances are that it was started by electrical.

Note:

(In the novel, The Girl with the Pansy Pin, chapter three, Lizzie is playing in the yard for the Richard Borden Mill. Richard Borden makes a brief appearance and has a few lines. The scene is of Lizzie as a little girl, along with her friend Martin. They were fishing off the small Plymouth Ave. bridge just north of the Richard Borden Mill. In the scene there are two characters.... Richard Borden and Samuel Brayton. Richard was a real person, but Brayton was a made up fellow. This was a reflection of my time as a little boy. I too use to fish off the same bridge and play in and around the Richard Borden Mill.)
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Post by mbhenty »

Yes, one more thing.

The house I posted above was Jefferson Borden's second house.

Below is a beautiful example of a Greek Revival. This was Jefferson's first house which sits on High Street today. It sits a block from the Historical Society and about 5 blocks from Maplecroft. This house once stood down by the waterfront, perhaps a block or so from Abraham Borden's house on Ferry Street and at some time was moved to High Street. The area along the waterfront was settled by well-to-do citizens in the early 1800s and before the hill became the place to live. As a matter of fact, close to the waterfront was where the Historical Society building once stood, on Colombia Street,again, a block away from the old Borden place on Ferry.
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Post by JamesInnocentBorden »

Thank you MB for posting this and sharing the pictures, and your own personal experiences. You are so fortunate to live among such history. It was sad to lose the Richard Borden Mill to the fire. There must have been something very combustible in that building for the fire to spread so quickly. Of course, back in the Lizzie Borden era fires were a major concern. We are fortunate to have the historical structures and homes still standing in Fall River.

Here is an interesting side note to the Jefferson Borden schooner.

"One thrilling scenario made the rounds of who-dunnit in the newspapers after the grisly remains of Abby and Andrew Borden were discovered – one or more savage sailors slithered into the Borden home and extracted revenge for Andrew Borden’s testimony against them involving a mutiny at sea! It was juicy stuff to be sure, and the Jefferson Borden did exist (at one point the article references the Richard Borden as being the schooner)- the only difficulty was that Abby and Andrew Borden were not on board- and the mutineers were not free at the time of the murders. Still, it makes for a dramatic story."

https://lizziebordenwarpsandwefts.com/2010/11/15/
Oh, Mrs. Churchill, do come over, someone has killed father.
L.A.B.
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All this talk has brought something to mind. Who was the schooner Jefferson Borden named after?

Funny how these stories come down through history. I remember reading something about Andrew Borden investing in a ship. Can't remember the particulars, though, or whether he ever followed through, or if the account even ever happened. (?)

In reference to the burning of the Jefferson Borden Mill......Most of the mills in Fall River had their floors saturated with oil from machinery, sewing machines, etc. After 100 plus years or more their floors were prime wicks waiting to be made alight. I have witnessed 3 monster mill fires. The Jefferson Borden Mill, the Kerr Mill, and the Firestone Mill. All went up in the same manner. Once started there was no stopping it.

There's a book that was just released this week on Fall River Fires. It was written by the moderator of this forum, Stefani Koorey. To ring my own bell: In it is a narrative about the Notre dame fire of 1982 in Fall River. The pictures in the book of the church burning was taken by yours truly. At the time I was living a couple of blocks from the church. I am not ashamed to admit that tears came to my eyes when I watched the church burn. As a boy I grew up blocks from it. The church had a clock which sounded every 15 minutes. Mom would set her kitchen wall clock by the churches giant time piece, every time it sounded.

Talking about mill fires, there was another in Fall River just earlier this year. It was the Border City Mill number 3 on Weaver Street. As I said, once these places go up in flames there is not enough fire equipment or water to put them out. All they can do is contain them and prevent other buildings from going up. Below is another video of a mill fire. The Border City mill fire, 2016. Also a photo of the actual mill before it burnt down. And one of Stefani's book.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_XqWkaURdE





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Post by twinsrwe »

mbhenty wrote:
Note:

(In the novel, The Girl with the Pansy Pin, chapter three, Lizzie is playing in the yard for the Richard Borden Mill. Richard Borden makes a brief appearance and has a few lines. The scene is of Lizzie as a little girl, along with her friend Martin. They were fishing off the small Plymouth Ave. bridge just north of the Richard Borden Mill. In the scene there are two characters.... Richard Borden and Samuel Brayton. Richard was a real person, but Brayton was a made up fellow. This was a reflection of my time as a little boy. I too use to fish off the same bridge and play in and around the Richard Borden Mill.)
Ohhh, I remember that chapter. Lizzie fishing with her friend Martin, ‘taking’ and then eating pears, collecting cattails, lying to her father, and Andrew reading the letter Martin sent to Lizzie, which he then burned. I love hearing about your personal experiences, and how they pertain to the story. :grin:
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
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mbhenty wrote:Yes, one more thing.

The house I posted above was Jefferson Borden's second house.

Below is a beautiful example of a Greek Revival. This was Jefferson's first house which sits on High Street today. It sits a block from the Historical Society and about 5 blocks from Maplecroft. This house once stood down by the waterfront, perhaps a block or so from Abraham Borden's house on Ferry Street and at some time was moved to High Street. The area along the waterfront was settled by well-to-do citizens in the early 1800s and before the hill became the place to live. As a matter of fact, that is where the Historical Society building once stood, on Colombia Street,again, a block away from the old Borden place on Ferry.
Both of Jefferson Borden’s houses appear to be huge compared to Andrew Borden’s house on 92 Second Street. Thank you for giving us the background history on Jefferson Borden’s houses.
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
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Post by mbhenty »

That's great Twins and good to hear. Thanks for reading The Girl with the Pansy Pin. Cool :!: :grin:

Yes, both Jefferson Borden Homes are great. His second house really reflected how proud he was of his mill. The Tower of the Jefferson Borden house mimics the one of his mill. The house belongs to the Catholic diocese. The old Greek Revival homestead is now Lawyers offices and eye care.

If it was painted the right color the house below would look great. But it is fine just the way it is. I really love the barn.
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mbhenty wrote:... In reference to the burning of the Jefferson Borden Mill......Most of the mills in Fall River had their floors saturated with oil from machinery, sewing machines, etc. After 100 plus years or more their floors were prime wicks waiting to be made alight. I have witnessed 3 monster mill fires. The Jefferson Borden Mill, the Kerr Mill, and the Firestone Mill. All went up in the same manner. Once started there was no stopping it.

There's a book that was just released this week on Fall River Fires. It was written by the moderator of this forum, Stefani Koorey. To ring my own bell: In it is a narrative about the Notre dame fire of 1982 in Fall River. The pictures in the book of the church burning was taken by yours truly. At the time I was living a couple of blocks from the church. I am not ashamed to admit that tears came to my eyes when I watched the church burn. As a boy I grew up blocks from it. The church had a clock which sounded every 15 minutes. Mom would set her kitchen wall clock by the churches giant time piece, every time it sounded.

Talking about mill fires, there was another in Fall River just earlier this year. It was the Border City Mill number 3 on Weaver Street. As I said, once these places go up in flames there is not enough fire equipment or water to put them out. All they can do is contain them and prevent other buildings from going up. Below is another video of a mill fire. The Border City mill fire, 2016. Also a photo of the actual mill before it burnt down. And one of Stefani's book.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_XqWkaURdE
.
Given the fact that the floors of these mills were saturated with oil from machinery, and in the case of the Richard Borden Mill which had a huge tangle of wires, then it’s no wonder why these fires spread so quickly throughout the entire buildings.

Oh, Stefani's book has just been released; I am looking forward to purchasing it. Thanks for giving us this heads up! :grin:
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mbhenty wrote:That's great Twins and good to hear. Thanks for reading The Girl with the Pansy Pin. Cool :!: :grin:
You’re welcome, MB, I’m glad you wrote this wonderful novel. It’s written in such a manner that, it as if you are right there with Lizzie. :grin:
mbhenty wrote: … Yes, both Jefferson Borden Homes are great. His second house really reflected how proud he was of his mill. The Tower of the Jefferson Borden house mimics the one of his mill. The house belongs to the Catholic diocese. The old Greek Revival homestead is now Lawyers offices and eye care.

If it was painted the right color the house below would look great. But it is fine just the way it is. I really love the barn.
Oh my goodness, I didn’t notice that the tower on his house mimics the one on his mill; how cool. I also like the barn; it really completes the entire look of the place.
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
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Wow, so sad to see a recent fire like that destroy such a historical building. It raises the question, how protected are the current historical homes in Fall River? Do they have sprinkling systems installed? Also, how many are on the National Register of Historic Places?
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Thanks for the question James:

Though you may be sorry you asked......

Fall River has no protection for their historical buildings. Fire is but a small threat. The biggest hazard to historical buildings in Fall River is fall river. (small f and small r for the small minds that live here.)

In the past couple of years alone fall river has demolished 2 churches. Just because they could. The mind set here is primitive, ignorant, and untutored if we are to be civil.

St. Louis church was on the Historical Register and they still knocked it down. Someone with deep pockets wanted the lot it was standing on. Perfectly good building. A little tired, but solid.

Then there was St. Johns. They knocked it down to build a parking lot and expand the size of a credit Union. St Ann's credit Union. What does that tell you about the church. Respect for money and none for historical buildings. St Johns was a beautiful granite church.

There are no rules for historical buildings in fall river. Knock it down, paint it pink, open a business in a residential neighborhood. Doesn't matter. Whoever has connections gets it done.

They have been dying to knock down Lizzie Borden's church for years. The unscrupulous, incompetent, and corrupt building inspector in the city deemed the tower of the Central Congregational Church as unsafe and ready to fall over. The new owners brought in an architect to check out the tower and discovered that there was nothing wrong with it. It just needed a little TLC, along with some mortar and minor brick work. But the building inspector is "demolish crazy." When they want to demolish a building, they just call it unsafe. No one questions them.

Sad state of affairs here in fall river when it comes to property. No one cares, not the public, city officials, or even historical societies or commissions, who are to cowardly to challenge the forces at be.

Below is a photo of the old King Philip Mill. It has been empty for years. It is on the chopping block. It was not until we elected a new mayor who is trying to save part of it that any mind has been paid to the historical content. Other Photos are of St Louis and St Johns. Landmarks, really. Gone.

Otherwise, every thing is just hunky-dory.
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Welcome, James, and you certainly have done an impressive amount of research about your line. So interesting. You will find this forum very enlightening I'm sure.
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MB..that's really depressing. I often think local government is among the most corrupt. They follow the money. What they don't seem to realize is the larger picture. By that I mean the tourist industry. People learn of Fall River, and have a desire to visit for the history, plain and simple. Take away the historic buildings and people will no longer have an interest in seeing what was once so unique to Fall River. They certainly will not come to see another theme park or shopping mall. I assume there is a Fall River historic society that has some influence?
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Patsy..thank you for the welcome. I look forward to learning and reading from the fine folks here on this forum. As a genealogist I'm more in awe of people who maintain the surname of their ancestors, such as those who descend directly from the Borden line and still have the Borden surname. Now that would be something to brag about.

Something many people might overlook are these two sisters, Ann Borden on the top and Mary Borden on the bottom. They are my second cousins, and Lizzie Borden's third cousins. They are from New Jersey and Mary Borden married Gov. Thomas McKean, who signed the Declaration of Independence, and her sister, Ann, married Francis Hopkinson, also a signer of the Declaration of Independence. Their grandfather, Joseph Borden, was the founder of Bordentown, New Jersey.
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Very Interesting James:

A whole new group of Borden's.

My understanding had always been that the Borden name first appeared in Rhode Island and Massachusetts and branched out through out the country from there. Most are related somehow, I assume. But there is a whole different group of Borden's who immigrated to other places than New England.

Interesting to know how Sir Robert Borden, the Nova Scotian and past prime minister of Canada, fit into the mix, or someone like Gail Borden, the milk company guy. Go back far enough and one would discover lineage and ancestry, I suppose. :study:
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MB...yes so true. These Bordens do descend from the Rhode Island Bordens, Richard Borden and his wife Joan Fowle of Portsmouth, Newport, Rhode Island. Richard Borden was from Headcorn, Kent,England. This how the Lizzie Borden family connects through the New Jersey Bordens, Richard Borden and Joan Fowle, the grandparents of Richard Borden and Innocent Cornell. Lizzie does have some rich history in her family tree when branching out and looking at all the different lineages. Mary Borden, the wife of Gov. Thomas McKean, died at the young age of 29. and he remarried to Sarah Armitage.
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Welcome James. I love having an innocent Borden! I also love Cornelia Otis Skinner--good actress and very funny writer!
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Thank you Lydia. Wow, I'm surprised you have heard of Cornelia Otis Skinner. Most people would not know of her or her acting family unless they were students of American theatre. I did read Cornelia's autobiography, 'Family Circle'. My third cousin, Maud Durbin married Otis Skinner, and she retired from acting after giving birth to Cornelia. Maud Durbin was quite close to her mentor and well known theatre actress, Helena Modjeska.

Pictured below in order from top to bottom: Cornelia Otis Skinner, Maud Durbin (in Romeo and Juliet), Otis Skinner
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Great pictures! I think she plays the sister in "The Univited." She collaborated with Emily Kimbrough on a very funny travel memoir about their trip to Europe between the wars--"Our Hearts Were Young and Gay."
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Lydia...Yes she did collaborate with Emily Kimbrough in that book. I read 'Our Hearts Were Young and Gay' also. I bought it on eBay. I loved that part when she was in Paris I think, and she wore that white fur pouch-like outfit. It had her father Otis in stitches with laughter. 'The Uninvited' is on YouTube in its entirety.
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James, as soon as you posted the photo of Ann Borden, bells went off in my head. I knew that after Emma had moved out of Maplecroft, in 1905, and moved to Newmarket, NH, she used an assumed name for the rest of her life. For whatever reason, the name ‘Ann’ stuck in my head. So, I did some research, found the information I was seeking, along with information about Lizzie that I had forgotten.

On August 12, 2004, Kat posted:

Rebello, 314:
"Murder Mystery Had Local Twist: Lizzie Borden's Sister Kept Hidden at Newmarket Home," Democrat, Newmarket, NH, February 7, 1981.

Mr. Louis Fillon, 89 years old and a life-long resident of Newmarket, New Hampshire, remembered that at the age of 18, while delivering grain to 203 South Main Street, he discovered that Emma Borden was living at the two-family home. He was requested by Emma's lawyer to keep his discovery a secret to prevent Lizzie from finding Emma's whereabouts and taking her money. He recalled that her companion, Annie Connor, was surprised that he discovered Emma's identity.

Note: Miss Annie Connor was the owner of the home in Newmarket, New Hampshire, where Emma resided. Emma died in Newmarket in 1927. The home was sold five months after Emma's death by Miss Connor in November, 1928."


----------------------

On Aug 13, 2004, William posted the following. (Underlining and highlighting are mine.):

From the Archives:

"Re Emma's assumed name"
Posted by William on Sep-14-03

(Lizzie Borden Message Board Archives
Posted by TILBA on August 25, 1999)

"Now that I know the whereabouts of the Swansea farm, I'm curious abot Emma's home in Newmarket, NH. Does anyone know the address?
I understand it's a private residence and not open to the public. Has anyone beside Frank Spiering ever been allowed in?"

Last summer Bill and I went to find the old farmhouse and take some pictures. Since it is a private residence we did not attempt to go on the property nor did we want to bother the residents.

However, while we were there a nice lady came out and invited us in for lemonade. We accepted and sat on the porch in Emma's wicker rocker with a descendent of Emma's tabby cat sitting on my lap. The lady later admitted that the only reason she let us visit is because she had recognized me as the curator of the Lizzie Borden house from a newspaper article. The only other person she let in was indeed Frank Spiering. She did not like Frank and said he had lied in the book There was no secret stairway, no set of light switches and no bars on the windows. ANNIE BORDEN, AS SHE WAS KNOWN WENTG TO CHURCH EVERY SUNDAY.


Note: I believe tht two individuals mentioned in this message wer Bill Pavao and Bill Quigley.

--------------------------

On August 13, 2004, Harry posted this (Underlining and highlighting are mine.):

Here's some additional references to Emma's name:

This is from Knowlton, Glossary A:

"Following a falling-out between the two siblings in 1904, she left Maplecroft, the home on French Street in Fall River they had shared for ten years. She relocated first to Providence, Rhode Island, and then to Newmarket, New Hampshire. She made her home in the latter locality, living under an assumed name until her death."


And from Hixon, page 66:

"By this time Emma was living under an assumed name in Newmarket, New Hampshire."

Neither mention the name used. ...

As for Lizzie, in Williams' Casebook, p254:

"In 1926 Lizzie entered the hospital for a gall bladder operation. She was admitted under the name of Emma Borden of the Hotel Biltmore, Providence, Rhode Island."

I could find this no where else. According to Kent, Lincoln and Rebello, Lizzie used the alias "Mary Smith Borden" for her 1926 stay at the hospital.

Source, thread titled, Lizzie's Post-Trial Life: http://tinyurl.com/hj5ybew

-----------

So, I’m thinking that most likely Emma adopted the name of ‘Annie’ from Annie Connors, not her third cousin, Ann. Where Lizzie came up with the name of ‘Mary Smith Borden’, is anybody’s guess; I don’t know as though it had anything to do with her third cousin, Mary Borden, since I could find no evidence that her cousin Mary, used the middle name of Smith.

I did find a memorial on Mary Borden McKean at the Find-A-Grave web site, but there isn’t a memorial for Ann Borden Hopkinson. Here is the memorial for Mary Borden: http://tinyurl.com/jp7lq9o

Do you happen to have any other information for us regarding Emma and Lizzie's assumed names?
In remembrance of my beloved son:
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Thank you Judy. I learned something here. I wasn't aware that Lizzie and Emma went by aliases when they went their separate ways. I highly doubt they used those names in reference to their historic cousins. Unless Lizzie and Emma were into genealogy they might not have been aware of Ann and Mary Borden. I think you are right that Emma borrowed that name from Annie Conner. I notice that sometimes Find A Grave will take down memorials perhaps for maintenance or to do further research. I did find this on Ann Borden.

This site says here name was Nancy Ann Borden so maybe she went by her middle name. http://causeofliberty.blogspot.com/2011 ... inson.html

I will look in my book, Parallel Lives, to see if there is any information about their assumed names.
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This was just posted by a member from WikiTree about my 6th great grandmother, Innocent Borden.

Apparently, Lizzie wasn't the only Borden with a talent for handling an axe. It must be hereditary.

Innocent and her family were Quakers, so it is possible that the Bozarths were originally Quakers. If they were not, then Innocent married outside her faith and she would have been removed from the Church. Most of the Bozarths became Baptists."

Interestingly enough, Innocent can hardly be descried as "innocent" and she was certainly no Quaker pacifist as this story shows:
(from W.B. Cutight, et al. The History of Upshur County West Virginia from its Earliest Exploration and Settlement to the Present Time pp. 196-197.)

". . . . THE HEROINE, MRS. BOZARTH, In the month of April, 1780, two or three families on Dunkard's Creek, hearing of the violent movement of the Indians against Pricket's Fort, decided to collect themselves at the house of Mr. Bozarth, thinking that they would be more safe when together than apart. One day two children ran into the house from their play exclaiming to Mr. Bozarth and his two neighbors that there were "ugly red men coming." One of the neighbors on going to the door to see if the children had given a true alarm, received a glancing shot in his breast from one of the Indians. This caused him to fall back and the Indian who shot him immediately sprang after the wounded man. He was checked by the other white man and was thrown on the floor. The victor in the contest having no weapon with which to wound the Indian, called to Mrs. Bozarth for a knife. There was none handy; but an axe was seized by her and at one blow the brains of the prostrate savage were let out.

And now a second Indian entered the door and shot dead the man astride the Indian on the floor. Mrs. Bozarth turned her wrath on him and with a well directed blow [dis]emboweled and caused him to bawl out for help. Other Indians endeavored to enter the home. The first that stuck his head through the door had it cleft by the axe of Mrs. Bazarth. The second, seeing the violent desperation of the inmates seized his wounded, yelling companion and drew him from the house. When Mrs. Bozarth and the white man who had been first wounded, closed and made fast the door. The children playing in the open yard were all killed. But for the heroism of Mrs. Bozarth and the wounded white man the attempts of the Indians to force open the door and take possession of the house would have been successful.

A relief party from the neighboring settlement soon gave the inmates liberty. [Alexander Scott] Withers in Chronicles of Border Warfare, (Clarksburg, Va., J. Israel, 1831)] says that from the first alarm from the children to the closing of the door consumed only three minutes and in this time Mrs. Bozarth with infinite coolness, deliberation and intrepidity killed three Indians.

Most surprising of all, Mrs. Bozarth’s first name was “Innocent” and she was originally a Quaker in religion.
Borden-886-enlarged.jpg
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JamesInnocentBorden wrote:Thank you Judy. I learned something here. I wasn't aware that Lizzie and Emma went by aliases when they went their separate ways. I highly doubt they used those names in reference to their historic cousins. Unless Lizzie and Emma were into genealogy they might not have been aware of Ann and Mary Borden. I think you are right that Emma borrowed that name from Annie Conner. I notice that sometimes Find A Grave will take down memorials perhaps for maintenance or to do further research. I did find this on Ann Borden.

This site says here name was Nancy Ann Borden so maybe she went by her middle name. http://causeofliberty.blogspot.com/2011 ... inson.html

I will look in my book, Parallel Lives, to see if there is any information about their assumed names.
You’re welcome, James. I have not run across any reference as to Lizzie or Emma being into genealogy, although they could very well have been. Thank you for posting the link to Nancy Ann Borden; I found it very interesting. There is one thing that caught my attention; Mary is referred to as Maria. Here is the sentence I am referring to:

Nancy and her sister Maria were considered to be the most beautiful women of New Jersey. Maria married Thomas McKean, another signer of the Declaration of Independence who later served as governor of Pennsylvania.

I have noticed the same thing about Find-A-Grave. However, I still check the web site out because it has very informational memorials, especially the list of spouses, siblings and children. The creator of Mary Borden McKean’s Find-A-Grave memorial page is Cammy. Since I am already a member of the Find-A-grave web site, I just sent Cammy an e-mail to see if she has any information on Ann Borden Hopkinson, and if she does would she mind posting it on the Find-A-Grave web site.

BTW, I did find the following information on Ann, which I included in my e-mail to Cammy: http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Borden-541
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
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JamesInnocentBorden wrote:This was just posted by a member from WikiTree about my 6th great grandmother, Innocent Borden.

Apparently, Lizzie wasn't the only Borden with a talent for handling an axe. It must be hereditary.

Innocent and her family were Quakers, so it is possible that the Bozarths were originally Quakers. If they were not, then Innocent married outside her faith and she would have been removed from the Church. Most of the Bozarths became Baptists."

Interestingly enough, Innocent can hardly be descried as "innocent" and she was certainly no Quaker pacifist as this story shows:
(from W.B. Cutight, et al. The History of Upshur County West Virginia from its Earliest Exploration and Settlement to the Present Time pp. 196-197.)

". . . . THE HEROINE, MRS. BOZARTH, In the month of April, 1780, two or three families on Dunkard's Creek, hearing of the violent movement of the Indians against Pricket's Fort, decided to collect themselves at the house of Mr. Bozarth, thinking that they would be more safe when together than apart. One day two children ran into the house from their play exclaiming to Mr. Bozarth and his two neighbors that there were "ugly red men coming." One of the neighbors on going to the door to see if the children had given a true alarm, received a glancing shot in his breast from one of the Indians. This caused him to fall back and the Indian who shot him immediately sprang after the wounded man. He was checked by the other white man and was thrown on the floor. The victor in the contest having no weapon with which to wound the Indian, called to Mrs. Bozarth for a knife. There was none handy; but an axe was seized by her and at one blow the brains of the prostrate savage were let out.

And now a second Indian entered the door and shot dead the man astride the Indian on the floor. Mrs. Bozarth turned her wrath on him and with a well directed blow [dis]emboweled and caused him to bawl out for help. Other Indians endeavored to enter the home. The first that stuck his head through the door had it cleft by the axe of Mrs. Bazarth. The second, seeing the violent desperation of the inmates seized his wounded, yelling companion and drew him from the house. When Mrs. Bozarth and the white man who had been first wounded, closed and made fast the door. The children playing in the open yard were all killed. But for the heroism of Mrs. Bozarth and the wounded white man the attempts of the Indians to force open the door and take possession of the house would have been successful.

A relief party from the neighboring settlement soon gave the inmates liberty. [Alexander Scott] Withers in Chronicles of Border Warfare, (Clarksburg, Va., J. Israel, 1831)] says that from the first alarm from the children to the closing of the door consumed only three minutes and in this time Mrs. Bozarth with infinite coolness, deliberation and intrepidity killed three Indians.

Most surprising of all, Mrs. Bozarth’s first name was “Innocent” and she was originally a Quaker in religion.

Borden-886-enlarged.jpg
Oh my, never underestimate the power of a woman who knows how to use an axe! :shock: So, in three minutes your 6th great grandmother killed three Indians. Wow! I find it very sad that during the attack, three children were also killed. :sad:

Thank you for posting this interesting account of Innocent Borden.
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
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Yes Judy, I see that often in genealogy research where a person, especially females, go by a nickname or shortened version of their formal name. It is very likely Mary Borden's formal name was Maria. I just thought it was so ironic how Innocent Borden used an ax also. That was some tough living back in those pioneer days. It is so tragic but they had to do what they could to survive. I could never justify killing any child under any condition whether they be white settlers or Native American children. I couldn't find any information in the Parallel Lives book about Lizzie and Emma's pseudo names.
Oh, Mrs. Churchill, do come over, someone has killed father.
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