Other Interests

[Kat]

I have moved this question and response here from the Blood Spatter thread- I went off-topic to quite a degree, while others were carrying on with the actual issue, sorry. I hope you don't mind, Reasonwhy...

Kat, did you really take a complete 8 years off from Lizzie? How does it feel to be dipping back in? Sometimes I feel like I would like to be totally free from curiosity about her. I’m periodically drawn back in to the mystery…yet it’s so fundamentally sad and ugly a story. And so frustrating—both to figure out the “how,” but also to know there is nothing we can do to help any of these people

.

Yes. Between 2001and 2011, at least 10 years, over 4 incarnations of Lizzie Borden Forum (including ours here now where I have over 13,000 posts), I had about 70,000 posts.
My best friend, Harry, was going thru a lot of serious health issues, and even tho he was my "Lizzie buddy" and we remained interested and talked a lot about the case, I had stopped posting. I had a 2 year gap from this forum from Nov. 2011 to Oct. 2013, when Harry asked me to come back on and answer something. He passed in 2015, and I think it was the following year I made my last visit to Fall River.
The case used to be all-consuming, and I loved it. Website, Forum, Hatchet Magazine mentioned in Time's Unsolved Crimes, being in the Discovety Channel video, the friends I made, the traveling, the fabulous people at the Historical Society, Len Rebello, interviewing fascinating people, writing, having the key to the B&B and able to stay alone at the house.

Harry bought me my copy of Parralell Lives, and we never got to read it because he asked me not to read it ahead of him. We wanted to keep even, but we never got to it.

The piece of my heart that was Lizzie's, died with Harry. And I had used to say: How can anyone ever not be interested in this case?!

Being part of The Hatchet, our fellow writers and friends who died, Terence Dunihoe and Joe Carlton's widows both sent me here their Lizzie Collections. So I had mine and Stef's and Len's, and Joe's and Ter's collections. Oh and some of Bill Pavao's- his files he shared with us were all on the 2 houses, Second Street and Maplecroft.

It's weird that I just went thru all of that material, conferred for hours over the phone with my sister, and winnowed it down to 3 boxes and sent it all to her, just this past summer. Then I got a phone call from our new member MaryM, and her avid interest, plus the fact I had just gone thru all the materials we had here case-related, and the recent passing of Twinsrwe (who kind of kept an eye on the Forum) I guess kind of sent me back here to take a look. Plus, I've had time on my hands recovering from an auto crash in 2020.

So here I am, and it's bittersweet, because I've lost so many Lizzie-friends in 20 years: Joe, Harry, Angel, Judy, William, Lee-ann, Anthony, Richard, Terence, and Barbara Morrisey, Fritz Aldiz, Dee Moniz, Maynard Bertolet and Ed Thibault.
Let's just say I'm dabbling for now, but you'all are pretty interesting as I get to know your styles thru your writing.
And I've always wanted to share, in any way, any Borden case related info: that's what we do in the Lizzie Community.

[kssunflower]

I had been wondering about Harry. Really sad to hear of his passing.

[Kat]

Thanks, Cindy. He was the most interesting man I ever met. We could talk for hours about anything. I visited him in S.C. 3 times a year, and Stef and I met up with him in Fall River at least once a year.
But you also went thru losing Audrey/Anthony and Twins and Angel on here while I was "gone",didn't you? tho Stef kept me informed. Sad is right.

[Kat]

One of the biggest wastes was Lee-ann's passing. She was so young, and it was within a week of her selling the B&B, and even tho she loved it, she was finally able to realize her investment but never got to enjoy that retirement. Harry loved her too, and I like to think they've solved the Borden mystery together...they finally know the answer!

[Kat]

We're finding out more about me, than each other....Well, I read a lot, but also watch too much tv, lately.
Have just become addicted to "Young Sheldon" and "Halloween Baking Championship"!🕷
Any other tv guilty confessions?

[Kat]

I've also asked about what members are reading? Do you all know each other so well, or just not interested in chatting?🗣

[Reasonwhy]

In the last couple of weeks, I have finally read Truman Capote’s In Cold Blood. I had stayed away for years, for the same reasons I periodically leave Lizzie. The subject of murders begins to feel morbid. (I mean no offense to anyone here; obviously—I am here, too ). I believe it is human to try to understand human nature, and the extremes of behavior are exotic because rare. Essentially, we seek to know how we might react in such circumstances.

The book has earned its reputation as a classic. Capote pursues and penetrates the “whys,” and absorbingly plots the “hows.” Of course, Bordenites can only dream of having so much information to hand. One conclusion of his I find particularly apt: he finds one of the killers murdered the family’s father as a scapegoat to pay for all that the killer’s own father, and “authority,” in general, had done to him.

I also read The Mask of Sanity: An Attempt to Clarify Some Issues about the So-Called Psycopathic Personality, by Harvey Cleckley, after having seen it referenced here on the forum. This is an early work (1955), and includes sociopaths, which is a category differentiated much more in recent studies. I was trying to see whether these sound like Lizzie. His case studies through most of the book are quite extreme examples, and among those, Lizzie seems a poor fit. I will say the characteristic lack of empathy does ring a loud bell, though.

I am currently reading a classic of femme fatale noir: Laura, by Vera Caspary. I’m enjoying the writing so much I keep putting off reading more, not wanting it to end. I will watch the movie after, and hope I’m not disappointed. Films so seldom match the level of the books, probably because they don’t involve our imaginations as much.

Finally, I have been reading many Hatchet articles, and learning much more about the case. Kudos to you, there, Kat: your research and writing are most impressive, and I feel so fortunate to have access to these. Thank you, thank you!

[Reasonwhy]

Last good tv I saw was the re-do of Ingmar Bergman’s Scenes from a Marriage. Intense! Worth it.

[Reasonwhy]

I have moved this question and response here from the Blood Spatter thread- I went off-topic to quite a degree, while others were carrying on with the actual issue, sorry. I hope you don't mind, Reasonwhy...

Kat, did you really take a complete 8 years off from Lizzie? How does it feel to be dipping back in? Sometimes I feel like I would like to be totally free from curiosity about her. I’m periodically drawn back in to the mystery…yet it’s so fundamentally sad and ugly a story. And so frustrating—both to figure out the “how,” but also to know there is nothing we can do to help any of these people

.

Yes. Between 2001and 2011, at least 10 years, over 4 incarnations of Lizzie Borden Forum (including ours here now where I have over 13,000 posts), I had about 70,000 posts.
My best friend, Harry, was going thru a lot of serious health issues, and even tho he was my "Lizzie buddy" and we remained interested and talked a lot about the case, I had stopped posting. I had a 2 year gap from this forum from Nov. 2011 to Oct. 2013, when Harry asked me to come back on and answer something. He passed in 2015, and I think it was the following year I made my last visit to Fall River.
The case used to be all-consuming, and I loved it. Website, Forum, Hatchet Magazine mentioned in Time's Unsolved Crimes, being in the Discovety Channel video, the friends I made, the traveling, the fabulous people at the Historical Society, Len Rebello, interviewing fascinating people, writing, having the key to the B&B and able to stay alone at the house.

Harry bought me my copy of Parralell Lives, and we never got to read it because he asked me not to read it ahead of him. We wanted to keep even, but we never got to it.

The piece of my heart that was Lizzie's, died with Harry. And I had used to say: How can anyone ever not be interested in this case?!

Being part of The Hatchet, our fellow writers and friends who died, Terence Dunihoe and Joe Carlton's widows both sent me here their Lizzie Collections. So I had mine and Stef's and Len's, and Joe's and Ter's collections. Oh and some of Bill Pavao's- his files he shared with us were all on the 2 houses, Second Street and Maplecroft.

It's weird that I just went thru all of that material, conferred for hours over the phone with my sister, and winnowed it down to 3 boxes and sent it all to her, just this past summer. Then I got a phone call from our new member MaryM, and her avid interest, plus the fact I had just gone thru all the materials we had here case-related, and the recent passing of Twinsrwe (who kind of kept an eye on the Forum) I guess kind of sent me back here to take a look. Plus, I've had time on my hands recovering from an auto crash in 2020.

So here I am, and it's bittersweet, because I've lost so many Lizzie-friends in 20 years: Joe, Harry, Angel, Judy, William, Lee-ann, Anthony, Richard, Terence, and Barbara Morrisey, Fritz Aldiz, Dee Moniz, Maynard Bertolet and Ed Thibault.
Let's just say I'm dabbling for now, but you'all are pretty interesting as I get to know your styles thru your writing.
And I've always wanted to share, in any way, any Borden case related info: that's what we do in the Lizzie Community.

Kat, it is so typical of your ((I’m learning!) generosity and openness that you would share that bitter and sweet with us. I’m so sorry for those whom you’ve lost. Indeed, in reading prior years’ forum posts, part of the fun is the sense of (spirited!) community you all created.

Nice to know that, however indirectly, Lizzie contributed to that good.

[Kat]

Thank you for writing!
I had been looking foreword to finding out more about each other!

In the last couple of weeks, I have finally read Truman Capote’s In Cold Blood. I had stayed away for years, for the same reasons I periodically leave Lizzie. The subject of murders begins to feel morbid. (I mean no offense to anyone here; obviously—I am here, too ). I believe it is human to try to understand human nature, and the extremes of behavior are exotic because rare. Essentially, we seek to know how we might react in such circumstances.

I, too, had taken a break from true crime, probably over the last 8 years. For instance, I had every Ann Rule book but stopped before finishing. However, In Cold Blood is like literature, but I read it way too long ago. I was just thinking about watching the movie again, after 30 years!

Do you like Dominick Dunne? His several essays on the OJSimpson trial for Vanity Fair are online and can be downloaded in segments. I love him - I think I've read every one of his books, starting with The Two Mrs Grenvilles. I think I read every Capote book also.

Stef has given me several true crime books in the last couple of years- ones I would have gobbled up previously. I just put them on the shelf.

About 2 years ago? When Zac Efron made the Bundy movie, is when I got back into it. There seemed to be a glut of Bundy documentaries and interviews with important officials about the cases. That case, I find the most interesting, because of the Orlando connection. I've read every book and seen everything on it. I was trying to learn how to "look for tells" while watching him speak about his crimes. It was fascinating! And trying to figure out the psychopathy of how he compartmentalized his views of reality vs. his courrupt fantasy life. I do think there were some behaviors he committed that he could not, or would not admit, even to himself. But these were the ones that fed the beast within him.

I admit, my last essay for The Hatchet was actually on Jack The Ripper! That was 3 months research and 3 months collating info and writing and editing and then I was Done writing anything... but I did get some Bundy in there!

[Kat]

Is the Vera Caspary "Laura" the same as the Vincent Price movie? I didn't know she wrote that! We have Caspary books all over the house! I should try her!

[Kat]

I also read The Mask of Sanity: An Attempt to Clarify Some Issues about the So-Called Psycopathic Personality, by Harvey Cleckley, after having seen it referenced here on the forum. This is an early work (1955), and includes sociopaths, which is a category differentiated much more in recent studies. I was trying to see whether these sound like Lizzie. His case studies through most of the book are quite extreme examples, and among those, Lizzie seems a poor fit. I will say the characteristic lack of empathy does ring a loud bell, though. --partial quote Reasonwhy

I had no idea that sociopathy as a term defining a syndrome was recognized as early as 1955. I understand you are not making that claim, just providing the date of the publication of the book.
There's a new 1/2 hr show this past season, on tv, called "Signs of a Psychopath." At first it was interesting because the whole show is in the interview room hearing the story the killer tells after apprehension, when the true con man comes out. They included cuts to psychologists or psychiatrists who interpret what we see and give feedback to the audience.
However! I noticed in several instances the subject was actually mentally ill with paranoid schizophrenia, who I felt were being exploited! Not right!
............
Finally, I have been reading many Hatchet articles, and learning much more about the case. Kudos to you, there, Kat: your research and writing are most impressive, and I feel so fortunate to have access these. Thank you, thank you! ---partial Reasonwhy

Thank you and you're welcome!

[Reasonwhy]

Just got my Moderna booster of the Covid vaccine. So grateful we in the U.S. can take advantage of this, and for free! Don’t wish to upset or challenge anyone here—I’m just starting to care about you and to hope you are all safe and well

[Kat]

Good for you!
I got my booster the first week it was allowed here in Florida.
Next is that yearly flu shot for older people!

Yes, safe and well, no matter your beliefs! Yes!

[Reasonwhy]

So glad you got that, Kat! Yay! Got my flu shot last week.

[Reasonwhy]

Kat wrote (partial post): “….I, too, had taken a break from true crime, probably over the last 8 years….”

Kat, I suppose it might be unusual for those on this forum, but Lizzie is one of my very few true crime interests. Only a few other books or movies in this genre have drawn me in. Fictional mysteries and suspense I can greatly enjoy, but gore repels me, and the realness of true crime usually worries me too much to enjoy. So why Lizzie is the exception? The contradictions in Lizzie’s nature, her elusive personality fascinate me; she seems to dwell just in that shadow beyond our understanding. The irony is that that mystery has—for so many years!—drawn me in, but when I feel closest to grasping her essential character? That is when I am most horrified and saddened by her, and turn away.

How do feel you about her, after all this time?

[Kat]

I do understand what you mean.
Sometimes I hated her. Especially when I dwelled on the victims.
I called her "The Sphynx of Quietude" - and, hoping not to offend anyone, but I also thought of her as a sort of mirror, where folks could project whatever they wanted to on to her. I do think I saw that in some posters. Maybe it's human nature? I haven't decided yet. But I don't think they know they do that, but also it doesn't mean they are wrong...it's complicated.

[Kat]

Yes, I am surprised that you don't pursue an interest in other true crime. We've all gone thru Smutty Nose murders and Bertha Manchester, and Villisca (ax murders). Oh and Sarah Cornell, not an ax murder. Bertha and Sarah are both "local."

[Reasonwhy]

We should take this to a new topic, or re-open an old one. Your perspective is so intriguing-would love to hear more…others might, too.

[Kat]

" Truth Is Out There" is on now...be back in an hour! Forgive me plz...

Addition edit here. ----I'm back and didn't learn anything.

[Kat]

I would rather just people wandering thru here to read my assessments of posters, if that's OK? There has always been projection...have you noticed?

And I remember the famous quote by Mrs Brigham of the FRHS, saying : I wish that girl had never been born.

I was shocked when I first read that, but from her generation's perspective, it's a truism.
Personally, I don't feel that way, and I think I've achieved a responsible balance between did she or didn't she...but I do like facts! I fact-checked every article printed in The Hatchet...even Neilson Caplain, whom we adored, and I was honored to meet! I did not fact check the humor or the poetry, obviously.

[Kat]

BTW do you think the most vociferous authors project? Like Brown and Lincoln, for instance?

[Reasonwhy]

Projection could be an interesting idea to apply to authors of books but hard to discern, possibly, in others’ more casual writings. Do you mean by the term a sort of agenda on these authors’ parts?

For example, with Lincoln, as a descendant of the Fall River “old guard,” perhaps a need to make an excuse for Lizzie by claiming she had temporal lobe epileptic spells? The agenda there might be to mitigate the association of evil with her home town by giving the crimes a quasi-medical explanation?

[Kat]

Yes I think you're right that it could mean authors have an agenda- of course there needs to be to sell a book or a movie...in "more casual writings" is a better definition of what I tend to see, because I mean specifically Lizzie the person...not whole theories like illegitimate son, or incest within the family....those are based on Andrew's possible secret life.

[camgarsky4]

Ok Kat and Reason....I'll join the fun of the "Stay to Tea"! I'm pretty busy during the day "working from home" for Hallmark, but will share some personal info tonight!

Chiefs are going to smoke the Giants Sunday!! Or at least they better.

[Reasonwhy]

Nice to see you here, Camgarsky!

[Kat]

I think we are the only girls posting Jodi!

[Kat]

Ok Kat and Reason....I'll join the fun of the "Stay to Tea"! I'm pretty busy during the day "working from home" for Hallmark, but will share some personal info tonight!

Chiefs are going to smoke the Giants Sunday!! Or at least they better.

I'm trying to watch college football, but my teams are all playing each other! And no one can beat Georgia with Trevor Lawrence gone!

[Reasonwhy]

I think we are the only girls posting Jodi!

Yes, we need more women posting, generally. Masculine and feminine perceptions intermixed gave the forum a little spark in prior days, it seems. Yoo hoo, ladies! And more gentlemen! Come join us

[camgarsky4]

Mizzou tigers just beat Vanderbilt, so that is good news from my KC bias.

Agree that Georgia looks like the 2021 version of Clemson. Missouri plays them next weekend. Probably going to be ugly.

Kat, how close do u live to Gainesville?

[Kat]

i live in the O C !

[Kat]

That's Orange County...

Jodi and I are awaiting our tea time chat... or ?

[Reasonwhy]

Oh, let’s do have both! Are we waiting for the men?

[Kat]

Ok Kat and Reason....I'll join the fun of the "Stay to Tea"! I'm pretty busy during the day "working from home" for Hallmark, but will share some personal info tonight!

Chiefs are going to smoke the Giants Sunday!! Or at least they better.

Well, he said he'd come to tea Friday night?...
Maybe 2 parties in one weekend is too much?
I will say since KC playing tonight... so if he's a good "Chief" he'll be busy!

[Kat]

Sunday Bucs 11 penalties for the whole length of the football field! 99 or 100 yards!
Not right!
Tonight KC 12 penalties? I haven't had the opportunity to watch that many KC games this season, but Patrick is not playing the same. He's not running straight at his target anymore, he's running sideways! And most of his passes start 6 or 10 yards behind the line of skrimmage! He used to make things happen by doing it himself, he's not doing that anymore. All the pundits say is he's changing the way he "protects the ball." Like he learned something...what else did they re-train out of him?
Also, I am so frustrated at what I call :"first-and-ten-run-it-up-the-middle" play. It's so common, modest and conventional and it's a wasted play. If they're going to run it up the middle on first down, in a tight situation, Patrick should do it.
This was a terrible game. To me, flags mean "cheating" because it breaks the rules. And when it was over, Patrick did not look good..he looked tired and pale...and they were even playing at home!
Anyone talk football here?

[camgarsky4]

It was a win, but a pretty pathetic one. I know we are spoiled with the Chiefs, but I truly don't understand how a team can digress so dramatically. I suspect this negative spiral started with Andy Reid's son's driving accident couple days before the Super Bowl. He was drinking and hit a car on side of road with little girl in it. She was badly hurt.

Kat - do you lean Universal or Disney?

[Kat]

So do you mean the coach is messed up, not focused? That would make a lot of sense if he's emotionally bailed off the team...
...................
We always had friends that worked at Disney, never had to pay, since 1988. So not been to Universal at all. Free Disney parks can't be beat!

[kssunflower]

I'm late with my 2 cents on this, but yes the incident with the coach's son definitely messed up their focus in the superbowl. There are some fans here in KC that want QB Mahomes benched - it's ludicrous. Can't explain all the interceptions and fumbles but we're playing a bit better today.

[Kat]

Hi! Nice to see you!
Just finished watching an abysmal game, and can't even point to the weather!
Patrick is still running sideways...did someone coach him to change? Any hints he's being re-coached?
I always remember what Elway did to our FLA hero Tim Tebo, once he got to Denver. They made him retrain his throw and he was never the same again...(well, I blame it on Elway...others may differ...)

[Kat]

OMG what an exciting half hour I had today!
I noticed a plume of cloud out my patio door beyond the 60 ft tree of my neighbor, going straight up! I was on the phone with my friend, so we both went outside and she could see it too. It looked just like the after-plume of a rocket launch, but due North. Our launches come from due East... I stood in my driveway and looked all around the sky, and the plume had curved toward the east, but still northerly direction. Then I saw another one! There was an object in front of it, glowing silvery white, with a fine-line plume, going from east to north, then another one then another one then another one then another one...some starting directly overhead, others starting from the south, but all seemingly traveling north, but coming from all over, leaving these long plumes, which stayed intact. Then another, and another...we were in awe! I was spinning around in my driveway at 5:30 pm, rush hour traffic time on my street, pointing at the sky and talking rapidly on the phone to my friend! She had been in her car, by then, but had pulled over in anazement at what we were seeing! Invaders from space? What I thought was that is was a meteor shower, but I had never seen one in the daytime! Stef googled it for me and it is a meteor shower and supposedly still active tonight and tomorrow morning. Also a comet tonight, seen only by telescope, and also a partial lunar eclipse! I had no knowledge of this, previous to the experience. The info on the internet said you'd be lucky to see 2 or 3 per hour, at night! We estimated we had witnessed at least a dozen in half an hour, in daylight, within sight from one extreme part of the sky to the other!
Whew! Not ever again in my lifetime!! Keep looking UP, my friends....☄☄

[Reasonwhy]

I’m glad this opportunity opened for you, a person who seems to have the sense of wonder to appreciate it. It is a cliche, but truly marvels are all around us if we can only stay keen. Glad for you, Kat!

[Kat]

There's still a small window of opportunity for others to see this.
I've lain for hours in my driveway at night with my sister waiting for meteors, and been underwhelmed.
I also was excited to see one of those private space launches last month at night from the Cape, that was spectacular, from my driveway!

[Kat]

I recently looked up the first photograph of the earth ever taken in its full entirety. Usually, I envision in my mind the "blue marble" picture that is so famous, but I wanted the first time where we got to see what we really look like from space! (Some of the earlier photos from space were partial views).
1966 black and white!
Do you get a sense of a slightly oval shape? Actually, the earth is not round, but slightly oval, after all. (As Young Sheldon would say, "fun fact!" )

[Reasonwhy]

And to think that was only 55 years ago—within most posters’ lifetimes. We have come so far, so fast. Before my mom died, I asked her what she would miss the most. She said us, but next was just finding out all the things that would be discovered.

[Kat]

Wow! And now she knows Everything!

[Kat]

WOW WOW WOW!!!! OT!

[Kat]

Lately, I've been amusing myself looking at Airbnb options in outlandish places and found Twin Palms after searching Palm Springs, CA, which is a place I love. Have only ever driven thru, never lived there. But Sinatra's estate there is now about 3600 a NIGHT! It's also used for weddings, etc. cool I suppose if everybody chipped in...?

[Kat]

Twin Palms Sinatra mid-century modern

[Reasonwhy]

I would chip in to meet you all for a Borden-conversation weekend! Though I don’t know about a place that luxe. Seriously, if all are double-faxed and boosted, maybe we could think of a place to meet up in the new year? What fun! Or, at least a Zoom party? What do y’all think?

[Reasonwhy]

Meanwhile, Kat, these are gorgeous to dream on. Sigh.