Dr. Dolan meets opposition

[Harry]

Ran across a paragraph in an article that appeared in the Boston Advertiser, dated August 13, 1892. (Kent's Sourcebook, page 107):

"... The medical examiner wanted it understood that no autopsy occurred before yesterday. On the day of the murder there was no examination of the bodies away from the heads. He had removed the stomachs against almost the unanimous opposition of all the others engaged upon the case. They had insisted that the cause of death in each case was too evident to require any further investigation. ..."

Then the article goes on to explain that Attorney General Pillsbury supported Dolan's action.

I just thought it was very curious that Dolan would face any opposition since it was known very early that Lizzie allegedly attempted to purchase poison.

Dolan says that no examination other than that of the heads of the victims occurred on the 4th. Yet the stomachs were removed. Dr. Dolan certainly didn't want to leave the impression that his examination on the 4th was in any way an autopsy. I think his failure to submit a formal record of that examination until a later date helps explain that.

[Shelley]

That makes sense Harry. So many people have asked whether it was usual to do an autopsy in a home and I would have to say no. I expect it was critical to get the stomachs out and get the contents tested ASAP as some poisons might be hard to detect and break down over time. I would imagine a routine autopsy would be done elsewhere- coroner's office, medical examiner's, city doctor's, city morgue?

I also wonder if the back of Abby's head was shaved and the wounds measured and counted on August 4th- I think it must have been as it was a Walsh photograph of before and after the head was shaved- horrible scary photo that is too. Those are the three at the house which also include Andrew with his long incision from sternum straight down the front on the caned autopsy board in front of the fireplace.

[Harry]

There's no record that Walsh was at the autopsy performed at the cemetery so the photos of Abby's shaved head must have been taken at the house.

I was looking for when Winward took charge of the bodies for preparation but haven't found a time certain yet. Was Walsh at the house on Friday?

[Kat]

I thought it was determined the shaved head picture was from the 11th at the cemetery?
I remember thinking it looked pretty good for that late date in August.
When did Dolan take the heads off?

Winward took charge of the bodies technically sometime Friday but I don't think he (or his assistant) got to working on them in preparation of the funeral service until very late Friday night or very early in the morning of Saturday before the guests arrived.

I think Dolan did the autopsy on Bertha Manchester in situ as well?

It may have been *critical* to get the stomachs to Harvard to Dr. Woods but when that was done they thought the man was in Europe. It sounded like they were willing to wait. But as it happened, he was not away and went to work on the project pretty soon after receiving them.

[Kat]

If Dolan took the heads on the 11th, it's possible that is a disembodied head in that photo.
Ewww!

[Shelley]

I think the head shot was done on the 4th too Harry. Dolan admits after the stomachs were removed, they addressed their prime attention to the heads, but did not do a regular autopsy procedure on the bodies. Checking Rebello for who went into the ladies comfort station at Oak Grove on the 11th , we get only the four doctors, Draper, Dolan, Cone and Leary. I imagine this was kept somewhat quiet from the public also.

I have a skull at home and it is hard to balance one on its face without it rolling over one way or another or side to side.This is due to the protrusion of the nose. I feel pretty certain Abby was "intact" and attached when the back of her head was shown shaved and pre-shaved which means those were probaby taken in the diningroom.

[Shelley]

But here is a point of interest. We have seen the defleshed skulls in two grisly portraits. Who took the photos of the bare skulls? Was Walsh called into Dolan's office after the skulls were defleshed, or were these photos taken prior to or after the trial had ended?

[Harry]

Dr. Dolan's testimony at the trial is particularly gruesome. This is from page 918 of the Trial where Dr. Dolan is testifying:

"Q. But you had performed an autopsy then, hadn't you, or had made a report?
A. Yes, sir, but I had not prepared the skulls at that time, sir.
Q. You had not prepared the skulls?
A. No, sir.
Q. When were they prepared?
A. I could not tell you, sir, the date.
Q. About when?
A. I don't think I had them ready before the first week or two in September: I don't think so.
Q. Didn't you have them ready to bring into Court at the time of the hearing there?
A. I do not recollect that I had."

So they were not ready at the time the Preliminary hearing which means that Dr. Dolan had the severed heads for over a month. Since he says they were not "prepared" I assume they still had flesh. Dr. Dolan must have had a strong stomach.

The heads were removed at the cemetery. More from Dr. Dolan, page 921:

"Q. At all events, it was on the 11th of August?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the Oak Grove Cemetery contains the family lot of this family?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where the bodies had been taken for interment?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. At that time did you remove something from the bodies?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You removed the skulls, the heads, didn't you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you notify these daughters, or any of them, that you were about to do it?
A. No, sir."

This is Dolan's testimony at the Preliminary about when the skulls were photographed, page 186:

"Q. Did you photograph them, or cause them to be photographed?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When?
A. I do not know whether Monday or Tuesday of this week.
Q. Of this week?
A. Yes Sir."

Dr. Dolan testified at the Preliminary on August 25th and 26th, which was a Thursday and Friday. Monday and Tuesday of that week would have been August 22 or August 23. The skulls at that time were not fleshless because they weren't "prepared" until some time in September.

If there was some record of Walsh being at the cemetery I would agree the photograph could have been taken there. The official autopsy report mentions the doctors that were there. It just seems to me that if photographs were taken at the cemetery someone would have mentioned it and that it would have been part of the official record.

They could have shaved the back of Abbie's head on the 4th. But would they have done that before the wake? Her casket, like Andrew's, was open. That photo shows extensive hair removal.

[Shelley]

Oooo- what a gruesome prospect. Well, it was open coffin with the back of Abby's head facing down- so her face was fine for viewing. His left temple would have been turned to the side with the good right side "up".

When I read the Oak Grove report it mentions the brains had liquified. It is hard to know what Dolan meant by "prepared". I would have thought , due to the apparent decomposition, that the defleshing would have occured when Dolan got them back to his ME offices. I am now trying to recall - when did Dr. Wood get a chance to look at the skulls? The thought of having Andrew and Abby's whole heads in an "icebox" for weeks somehow doesn't seem quite the thing do you think?

[Shelley]

Q. Did you photograph them, or cause them to be photographed?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When?
A. I do not know whether Monday or Tuesday of this week.
Q. Of this week?
A. Yes Sir."

. Monday and Tuesday of that week would have been August 22 or August 23

So this is the time the heads were photographed. Those two photos show a bare skull. Just the thought that there may be whole severed heads of both the victims photographed is too awful to contemplate -and I wonder if that sort of thing would have been an option for the times, even under the circumstances? Seems unlikely. Skulls are somehow, less personal when it comes down to it. If Dolan got the two heads on the 11th, took them with him, and defleshed them within a day or so then only 11 days later had them photographed, that would seem more likely than keeping two severed heads for a month. I am also trying to recall- weren't those skulls seen by Dr. Woods? The stomach contents were sent along with the milk to Harvard Medical School. Were the skulls also sent to Boston? Time to dig in the testimonies.

[Kat]

I had the benefit of a personal back-and-forth e-mail between 3 members earlier in the year where we were trying to figure out just this question as to when the shaved- head- of- Abbie picture was taken. I don't think that is mentioned in testimonies- it's going to be more newspaper info and Knowlton Papers as reference maybe at this point?

In the crime scene photo of Abbie-with-hair where her face is to the side, there looks to be an apparatus that is holding her head in the position it is in in order to expose the photo.
It's not impossible that the Dr. had an apparatus like that to hold Abbie's head (if it was severed or even if it wasn't) face down for a back-of-head shot.

[edited to move a sentence up and add the word "be"- I should proof-read!]

[Allen]

Ran across a paragraph in an article that appeared in the Boston Advertiser, dated August 13, 1892. (Kent's Sourcebook, page 107):

"... The medical examiner wanted it understood that no autopsy occurred before yesterday. On the day of the murder there was no examination of the bodies away from the heads. He had removed the stomachs against almost the unanimous opposition of all the others engaged upon the case. They had insisted that the cause of death in each case was too evident to require any further investigation. ..."

Then the article goes on to explain that Attorney General Pillsbury supported Dolan's action.

I just thought it was very curious that Dolan would face any opposition since it was known very early that Lizzie allegedly attempted to purchase poison.

Dolan says that no examination other than that of the heads of the victims occurred on the 4th. Yet the stomachs were removed. Dr. Dolan certainly didn't want to leave the impression that his examination on the 4th was in any way an autopsy. I think his failure to submit a formal record of that examination until a later date helps explain that.

I was already rereading over Professor Wood's testimony to find the answer to a question of my own, and I did not see any references in his statements to seeing the skulls. It seems you all have one question already on the table, and I'm going to jump in somewhere in the middle and talk about something completely different. I apologize. But after reading Harry's post another idea came into mind. I've always wondered about the methods they used to test for poison. Could there have been other poisons used which had not been detected, or maybe not even tested for? Maybe Lizzie tried to use another poison, and when it seemed not to have the effect she wanted, she became a little more desperate and attempted to purchase prussic acid.

I just finished reading a book called Thunderstruck by Erik Larson. This book is about the two famous historical characters Guglielmo Marconi, and Hawley Harvey Crippen. It details how Mrs. Crippen's remains were tested for poison after being found buried in the basement of the Crippen home. The methods the doctor explained that he used took weeks. He tested for several types of poisons. This is even after it was determined the lining of the stomach showed no signs of irritation. I've always wondered just how thorough and extensive the testing was in the Borden case. And how accurate this testing would have been by today's standards. If we had those same samples today would traces of poison be found by our more advanced technology that maybe would've been missed then?

Trial testimony of Professor Wood:

Q. That stomach had not been opened?
A. That stomach had not been opened. It was in the same external condition as the stomach of Mrs. Borden. Both of those contents of the stomach were immediately tested for prussic acid, because prussic acid, being a volatile acid, it is necessary to make an immediate test for it, as it would very shortly after it's exposure to the air escape, and escape detection therefore. Therefore they were both tested for prussic acid, with a negative result. Afterwards they were analyzed in the regular way for the irritant poisons, also with a negative result.

Q. In other words you found no evidence--
A. I found no evidence of poison of any kind.

The way I read it is he found no evidence "of any kind" of the irritant variety of poisons. Is that how I am to read that? The examination of Mrs. Crippen's remains took place years after the Borden murders occured. But you would think that the men of science would know about detecting the presence of a different variety of poisons at the time of the Borden murders as well. A passage from the book I am speaking of...

"At St. Mary's Hospital, London, Dr. Wilcox conducted an initial series of experiments to rule out certain easy-to-detect poisons, such as arsenic, antimony, and prussic acid. He found trace amounts of arsenic and carbonic acid but attributed them to a disinfectant that a police officer enthusiastically if unwisely had applied to the sides of the excavation in the Hilldrop cellar before the remains were removed. Wilcox found traces only in some organs, not in all, which reassured him that the arsenic was a contamanint, not the cause of death. Now he returned to the more complex and time consuming task of detemining whether the remains contained any poisons of the alkaloid variety, such as stychnine, cocaine, and atropine, a derivative of deadly nightshade. He estimated this phase would take about two weeks."

It explains all of the methods used to detect the poisons, which believe it or not also involved using a cat. Did Professor Wood only test for a certain variety of poisons? Namely the poison Lizzie was purported to have tried to purchase?

Another question I have is about is the plaster casts of the skulls. From certain testimony it appears to me that the wounds on the skull were drawn onto a plaster cast skull after the doctor had taken measurements from the skulls of the Bordens. What happened to these casts?

Testimony of Dr. Frank W. Draper page 1033:

Q. Did you make an examination of the wounds upon the head of Mr. Borden?
A. I did.

Q. Did you drawn these marks upon the plaster cast as it is here?
A. I did, sir.

[Angel]

I've always suspected exactly the same thing. I believe something was used on them. I always wondered if she gave them something in tea or something to make them very sleepy beforehand.

[Shelley]

Yes, I too have wondered for years about other types of poisons. There was no visible inflammation of the stomachs which would have been caused by caustic poisons, but I wonder about other types myself. I was surprised Prussic acid was even an issue as we know Lizzie never got any of that type.

In 1992, at the conference there was an excellent lecture given on poisons by a Harvard professor. I wondered why hair samples were taken from both heads as I was looking at them at the FRHS last week, Usually metallic poisons like arsenic leave deposits in the hair. I wondered if the Borden's hair was examined for traces. Poison is tricky business and there are so many kinds-some which leave no trace after some time has passed. Foxglove (digitaline), atropine (found in eyedrops), and vegetable extracts like oleander, nightshade, peach pit extract and many more as well as household poisons were rampant in the average home for insect and rodent control. I think the cause of death was so abundantly clear that the looking for poison was secondary and mostly because of Bowen's mentioning that Abby thought she and the family were poisoned, the conversation about the milk and bread, etc.

Thunderstruck is excellent as is his other big seller, Murder in the White City. Too bad Lizzie did not stay at Holmes' Murder Castle when she went to the Columbian Expo- Holmes might have met his match!

[Allen]

I agree that Devil in the White City was an excellent book. I would recommend those two books as must read material. I am hoping to see more books from Mr. Larson in the future.

I really wish there were some way of testing for traces of poison in the Borden case today, though I know the mode of death was by some sharp edged weapon. It may not have been the cause of death, but the presence of it might go toward the motive and opportunity. There is some evidence which suggests Lizzie may have been trying to purchase poison. Though the statements of Mr. Bence seem to be the only ones that made it into the official record, there was a second such occurrence that is mentioned as well by another druggist. Also, who would have had the opportunity to poison the Bordens?



Trial testimony of James A. Walsh page 123:


Q. Do you identify this (exhibit 18) as a view taken upon Aug. 4, 1892?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. The one just identified was a view of Mrs. Borden's head?
A. Mrs. Borden.

Q. You identify that (exhibit 19) as a view of Mr. Borden's head taken on the same day at the same time?
A. Yes, sir.

Cross Examination

Q. (By Mr. Robinson) When were those two taken?
A. They were taken probably at a half past four that afternoon.

Q. Am I to understand that all five were taken the same afternoon?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. They are all the work of the same day?
A. Yes, sir.

Which view of Mrs. Borden's head was taken on this day?

[Harry]

Drat! Just when I thought I was beginning to understand the photos.

Why does everything in this case have to have 2 or 3 answers? LOL

[Smudgeman]

I've always suspected exactly the same thing. I believe something was used on them. I always wondered if she gave them something in tea or something to make them very sleepy beforehand.

I have thought along these lines as well. Recently there was a case on Court Tv where the accused Melanie McGuire was convicted of killing her husband. It was an interesting case. The prosecuters found search topics on her computer for poisons, guns, and death. Among those were searches for "instant undectable poison", "toxic insulin levels" and a search for Chloral Hydrate and it's side effects. Chloral Hydrate is now the current "date rape" drug, but it was discovered in 1832 and is soluble in water and alcohol. It is also called the "knock-out drop" OR "Slipping someone a Mickey". Maybe Lizzie was reading about different types of poisons and their side effects? Or maybe she asked Dr. Bowen for a prescription for it, after all, it is a sedative? It was the 1st depressant developed for the specific purpose of inducing sleep, usually taking effect in about 30 minutes.

[Shelley]

I wish they had tested Abby's castor oil and Andrew's Garfield tea- nothing would have been easier to doctor up- both had a strong smell and taste. Hmm- sounds like Walsh DID take those head shots on the 4th indeed.

[Kat]

Preliminary Hearing,
pg. 196, Dr. Dolan specifies the photographs that were taken of the crime scenes, and describes the order in which they were taken:

#1 pic=Abby slightly moved
#2 pic=Abby with bed removed (side shot)
#3 pic= Abby with bed put back again
#4 pic= Abby downstairs
#5 pic=Andrew unmoved
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Crime ... ceList.htm

These are the crime scene photos.

Then there is the sitting room autopsy photo of Andrew on the table and the shaved-head-of-Abbie picture.
So far the testimony has not specified the shaved head photo as being taken on the 4th.

[Shelley]

I am not sure what is meant by "Abby downstairs"
as this could be a reference to the unshaved head photo.?

[Kat]

Yes I think that is right, Shell.
That also is the picture that flares out white and we can't see her nose. I just saw her nose for the first time this past trip!
Also, that is where it looks like an apparatus of metal is holding her head in position.
2 other people agreed that it did look like that.

During the autopsy of the 11th, they found the neck/shoulder wound. They had not documented that before. Then they asked that the buried clothing be unearthed and I believe they probably took Abbie's top clothing and matched the wound to the slice in her clothes. They also had the hammer-claw hatchet as the weapon at that time so maybe they fitted the hatchet to the wound and to the slice or cut in her clothing.

[Allen]

Also, that is where it looks like an apparatus of metal is holding her head in position.
2 other people agreed that it did look like that.

In my opinion, I can't say that I agree on this point.

[Kat]

Have you seen the actual photo? After all these years I must admit that I have only handled them recently. I did ask Harry and an Historical Society curator if they saw what I saw and the answer was it looked possible. Otherwise I do not speak for them.

[Shelley]

Which photo- shaved or unshaved? I can't see anything in either photo. Those head clamp things were often needed for the old daguerrotypes to keep heads from wobbling and chins from quivering-sometimes you could see just a hint of the shaft going up the back, the clamps went on either side of the back of the head. By 1892 paper printed photos were around-and I don't know a lot about photography, but I don't think those old clamps were still in use by 1892. Too bad the policeman in the sittingroom photo didn't stand still-then his face would not be such a blur.

[Kat]

It was the hairy picture of Abbie- the one we might call "Abbie downstairs" listed as #4, above. That is also in The Knowlton Papers Harry reminds me, and listed as a "Walsh" "August 4" photo. That is where I thought I saw some metal-like contraption to the lower left side of her head, in the hair.
I don't think it's impossible that they had something holding Abbie's head in place at the Aug. 4 partial autopsy, while they took the photo.

As an aside, the shaved head picture of Abbie is in The Knowlton Papers too by "Walsh" but no date given.

The original pictures are about 20% more clearly defined that exhibit more information as to the bodies, wounds, rooms.
I'm not sure many have seen them?

[Yooper]

Dr. Dolan might have been in a position to demand a complete autopsy if he had thought it was warranted. Perhaps removing only the stomachs for examination was a concession to those opposed to investigation beyond the obvious. The tendency to separate poison from hatchet as the method used is interesting. The use of a hatchet tends to imply an outsider, probably male. Poison tends to imply an insider, probably female. Initial resistance to the concept of a female as the perpetrator may be evident.

The way I read Professor Wood's testimony, I get the idea that the test for prussic acid was done immediately, then other tests for irritant poisons were made. No other types of poison are specifically mentioned, so the tests were probably confined to these. How much of a non-irritant poison might have been expelled through vomiting?

[Kat]

Did Wood do other tests for poisons?
I don't recall the results - or rather what his final opinion was. Can you say?

[Yooper]

Professor Wood, from the Trial Testimony, page 994, substantially the same as posted by Allen earlier:

Q. That stomach had not been opened?
A. That stomach had not been opened. It was in the same external condition as the
stomach of Mrs. Borden. Both of those contents of the stomachs were immediately tested
for prussic acid, because prussic acid, being a volatile acid, it is necessary to make an
immediate test for it, as it would very shortly after its exposure to the air escape, and
escape detection therefore. Therefore those were both tested for prussic acid, with a
negative result. Afterwards they were analyzed in the regular way for the irritant poisons,
with also a negative result.
Q. In other words you found no evidence ---
A. I found no evidence of poison of any kind.
Q. Of any kind whatever?
A. In either case. Both jars of milk were also tested in the same way, and without
obtaining any evidence of any poison in either the milk of August 3 or the milk of August
4.

So, the stomachs were analyzed for prussic acid and irritant poisons and Professor Wood concluded from this that there was no evidence of poison of any kind.

[Shelley]

Does seem a great deal presumptive, doesn't it?
I think we have also mentioned the milk and bread which should have been tested was that from August 2nd, the Tuesday- as it was Tuesday night they were all sick. With the cause of death so obvious, the search for poison was , I think, just an afterthought and only due to the testimony of Bence.

Sadly, all those test notes and analyses from Prof. Wood are missing in action unless somebody has them squirreled away in an attic somewhere. Harvard Medical School does not.

[Yooper]

I think Dr. Dolan had every intention of doing a complete autopsy once he had heard of possible poisoning. He did so after the funeral, in a covert manner. The immediate cause of death was abundantly apparent, but poisoning speaks to premeditation. The discovery of poison, especially in Abby's case, would be detrimental to Dr. Bowen's reputation so I can understand his opposition to a complete autopsy. Who knows what information was lost in an attempt at political correctness?

[Shelley]

The fact that the stomachs were removed was covering all bases, yes- but I think had they really been terribly worried about poisoning being a factor, a full autopsy would have been done on the day, taking tissue samples from major organs-not a week later. Many poisons dissolve, are absorbed, and are untraceable after time. Police knew Bence did not give Lizzie Prussic Acid, but I can see why they needed to eliminate it. The home examination seems to have been centered around the head injuries and removing the stomachs to send off for testing. I wonder if those hair samples were taken that day, or on the 11th.

I re-read the Oak Grove autopsy reports again over the weekend, where we get a full picture of the state of the digestive system, including the undigested bits of food in Abby's stomach, and what was in the upper and lower intestines of both. I have to wonder if establishing formally on August 4th who died first was not a greater concern for a number of reasons. I had also forgotten the grisly note about the liquified brain of Abby exiting through a hole in the skull. Deterioration after 7 days in August was appalling.

I believe Dolan on August 4th primarily had to give a professional opinion as to cause of death in his capacity as medical examiner and for the death certificate. The fact that Pillsbury called in Dr. Draper from Boston, and the city doctor as well to do a thorough autopsy from head to toe one week later tells me the Mayor and Hilliard could see, as more information flooded in after Thursday, this was going to evolve into a huge and hot case and Dolan had better go all out to get things documented for a probable trial.
If only such a thorough autospy had been done immediately following the discovery of the bodies!

[Allen]

The discovery of poison, especially in Abby's case, would be detrimental to Dr. Bowen's reputation so I can understand his opposition to a complete autopsy. Who knows what information was lost in an attempt at political correctness?

It appears that Dr. Bowen indeed showed some real concern about the issue of poison.

The Witness Statements , page 19, September 25, 1892. From the notes of Harrington and Doherty.

Dr. Bowen stopped me on the street, and was very anxious to know what Mr. Knowlton meant when he referred to having found another agent of death. He was nervous when talking of this I told him I did not recollect of any such statement in his plea.

[Yooper]

Dr. Bowen may have been in the unique position of having been able to prevent the murders. If he had not dismissed Abby's fear of being poisoned on the 3rd and had gone to the police with the information, or at least referred Abby to the police, events may have taken a different turn. If he had given Abby even an ounce of support in her fear for her life, which apparently was completely justified, the authorities might have become involved and the murders might not have occurred if the household was known to be under scrutiny.

[Tina-Kate]

I've always been interested in Harrington's quote of Dr Bowen. (I say Harrington because it sounds like his voice to me---his style of speech).

I'm sure he was haunted by Abby's angst of Aug 3rd for the rest of his days.

[shakiboo]

You really can't fault Dr. Bowen though, he had absolutley no reason to believe it was anything other then summer flu, and if he'd know about the mutton, he'd have been even more sure of it being just that. Maybe if Abby had said WHO she thought was trying to poison them it would have been different....hind sight is always 20/20 and I'm sure he felt great remorse. I'm sure he was very interested in finding out how wrong he might have been with his care of Abby. Not only for his own sake but also for his reputations sake.

[Yooper]

That's right, no one can blame Dr. Bowen for the murders, but he might have blamed himself. I'm sure he squirmed a bit until the results of the poison tests were known.

[shakiboo]

Oh I'm sure he did, but who under those circumstances wouldn't have?

[Kat]

I am a bit confused so I will say this, and state the obvious: that the stomachs were taken before anyone knew the name of Bence and so there was another reason for that.

They must have been taken due to Dr. Bowen's remarks on the day to the other doctors? - or something Alice Russell said about what Lizzie told her Wednedsay night? Is that the point being made?

[Shelley]

I have thought they were taken either to help establish time of death (although the small intestine was not taken and would have been equally important) or Bowen mentioned their sickness to Dolan and they were to check for either food-poisoning or maybe even something more sinister, based on Abby's Wednesday morning visit and her revelations to Bowen.

[Allen]

I am a bit confused so I will say this, and state the obvious: that the stomachs were taken before anyone knew the name of Bence and so there was another reason for that.

They must have been taken due to Dr. Bowen's remarks on the day to the other doctors? - or something Alice Russell said about what Lizzie told her Wednedsay night? Is that the point being made?

Well if this applies to the stomach's being taken before anyone knew about Bence, this also applies to the samples of Milk being prepared to be sent to the lab.

[Kat]

That's a good point Missy. Thanks.
The milk implies Bridget speaking or Alice speaking or we can include Dr. Bowen's remarks he might have made still in this.

[Allen]

That's a good point Missy. Thanks.
The milk implies Bridget speaking or Alice speaking or we can include Dr. Bowen's remarks he might have made still in this.

The idea of the Borden's somehow being poisoned had come up before Bence stepped forward about the prussic acid. The stomachs and the milk samples were collected before this, that's true. Lizzie had made comments to Alice on the night before the murders. Abby had expressed her fears to Dr. Bowen. Who had expressed these fears to police? What can we make of this? Bence also knew nothing about Lizzie's admissions to Alice about her fear they may be poisoned, or Abby's visit to Dr. Bowen, when he gave his testimony.

[Kat]

I don't know that the stomachs were taken to prove time of death, at the time. It may have been added evidence tho.
At the time, Dolan was only an M.E. for a year I believe? One murder investigation under his belt before this one?
If either Borden had eaten after breakfast, the stomachs would not help much.
Would the contents have still been viable in storage while they thought they were waiting for Prof. Wood to return from Europe?
For some reason - I think the stomachs weren't taken for TOD but rather for testing of poison, even just a sight test.

I would guess it was due to Dr. Bowen, probably.

[Allen]

I've been doing a little casual research on prussic acid. I've read some sources which were available in the 1890's, and some well before, which state in a nutshell that.."oil of almonds, used by confectioners, contains prussic acid"...

I've found some recipes for cakes and other goodies that use oil of almonds. One article in a medical journal published in 1867 demanded the Legislature should interfere in the sale of oil of bitter almonds due to the fact testing proved it could easily poison or cause death in their lab rats. Most of the articles state that the oil is purified in an attempt to remove the lethal substance.

When the amount was not sufficient to cause death, it still could cause serious illness in the person who ingested it. So should Dr. Bowen have taken Abby's fear about being sick as a result of baker's cream cakes a little more seriously? Even if this wasn't actually the case, and Lizzie was trying to poison them on purpose, her fear was at least in the realm of possibility.

When reading the medical books so far the testing methods for poison such as prussic acid has involved removal of the stomachs, much the same as the Borden stomachs were removed.


What to Do in Cases of Poisoning published in 1884.

Almond Flavour - Spirits of Almonds- Essence of Peach Kernels.

Consists of one part of Essential oil of Almonds and seven of spirits. About the same strength as Prussic Acid, and largely used by cooks for flavoring pastry, blanc mang, & c. Found in every kitchen.

Death from thirty drops ; poisoning in a child from eating tapioca pudding flavoured with it.

For symptoms and treatment, see prussic acid.
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A few poisons are discussed in this book.

The Encyclopedia of Household Information: A Compendum of Facts For Easy Reference Which Shall Constitute A Guide to Every Department of Social and Domestic Economy. A Manual for Every Home. Published 1890 by D.R. Ingersoll & Co.

Prussic Acid. Oil of Bitter Almonds, laurel water, cyonide of potassium, etc. , contain prussic acid. It is a deadly poison, and if a large quantity is taken, death takes place instantly, but smaller amounts occassion giddiness, loss of sight and fainting. Prussic acid, is the most deadly poison known. One drop of prussic acid would probably cause instantaneous death. When not instantly fatal, this poison occassions a sudden loss of sense, locked jaw, and difficult and rattling respiration, coldness of the extremities, small pulse, dialation of the pupils, and convulsions. There is a smell of bitter almonds proceeding from the mouth, and in the contents of the stomach, which may aid in forming an opinion on the nature of the case. Diluted water of ammonia is considered the best counter poison which can be used against this acid, otherwise its effects are to be combatted according to the general principles heretofore laid down."

http://books.google.com/books?id=OzSZHq ... #PPA304,M1

[Yooper]

I can understand where the idea came from that baker's goods might contain poison if that information was known at the time, Allen, good find!

Some current information from the Merck Index:
HCN, Hydrogen Cyanide, Hydrocyanic Acid, prussic acid.

High concentration produces tachypnea (causing increased intake of cyanide); then dyspnea, paralysis, unconsciousness, convulsions and respiratory arrest. Headache, vertigo, nausea and vomiting may occur with lesser concentrations. Chronic exposure over long periods may cause fatigue, weakness. Exposure to 150 ppm for 1/2 to 1 hour may endanger life. Death may result from a few minutes exposure to 300 ppm. Average fatal dose: 50 to 60 mg. (ppm=parts per million)

LC(50) in rats, mice, dogs: 554 ppm (5 minutes), 169 ppm (30 minutes), and 300 ppm (3 minutes) by inhalation. (LC50=lethal concentration producing 50% mortality)

Antidotes are sodium nitrite (NaNO2) and sodium thiosulfate (Na2S2O3).