dysfunctional family behavior

[Angel]

I read up on family dysfunction today to try to make some sense out of the Borden's strangeness. Strict, humorless father, mouselike sister, another sister considered weird by others, morbidly obese mother. Father creating such a stifling atmosphere that it would have been difficult for family interaction with anyone outside of the family. Locks on almost every door within the household, perhaps showing, at the very least, a power lust, and at the very most, a lust in some other way. Sisters so sexually repressed that others said, at least of Lizzie, that she avoided the company of men. Father miserly, yet treating one of daughters as a princess, sending her on European trips, etc. Daughter resentful of father's heavy rein on finances, yet giving him a ring which he wears almost like a wedding band. Lizzie feeling isolated and different enough at school to quit, making her life even more restricted. Step mother, after resigning self to life of spinsterhood suddenly finds self married to a rich, successful man. Father, having opportunity because of standing in town to find someone more suitable as a true partner, instead opts to marry a passive, plain, subservient woman. It seems to me that this whole scenerio is so far removed from encouraging a normal, healthy sexual growth for any young girl that no one could come out of a childhood like that unscathed.

[DWilly]

I read up on family dysfunction today to try to make some sense out of the Borden's strangeness. Strict, humorless father, mouselike sister, another sister considered weird by others, morbidly obese mother. Father creating such a stifling atmosphere that it would have been difficult for family interaction with anyone outside of the family. Locks on almost every door within the household, perhaps showing, at the very least, a power lust, and at the very most, a lust in some other way. Sisters so sexually repressed that others said, at least of Lizzie, that she avoided the company of men. Father miserly, yet treating one of daughters as a princess, sending her on European trips, etc. Daughter resentful of father's heavy rein on finances, yet giving him a ring which he wears almost like a wedding band. Lizzie feeling isolated and different enough at school to quit, making her life even more restricted. Step mother, after resigning self to life of spinsterhood suddenly finds self married to a rich, successful man. Father, having opportunity because of standing in town to find someone more suitable as a true partner, instead opts to marry a passive, plain, subservient woman. It seems to me that this whole scenerio is so far removed from encouraging a normal, healthy sexual growth for any young girl that no one could come out of a childhood like that unscathed.

Nice insights. One thing I have noticed is that if you look at the earliest photos of Lizzie and you follow those pictures all the way up to the one where Lizzie is standing behind the chair you will see how Lizzie's face gets sadder and sadder as the years go by. All those years living with Andrew took its toll.

[Yooper]

The key to the dysfunctional Borden family is Andrew, although he was probably over-compensating for his upbringing. He was miserly, but he knew life was hard. If his wife and daughters thought their life was difficult, they should try it without the benefit of money to learn the meaning of "difficult". He may have thought that knowing where the next meal was coming from was a luxury.
Lizzie seems to be regarded as the perpetual child. Emma is more Andrew's peer than his daughter, at least from her point of view. She likely had to grow up fast when her mother died and may well have assumed responsibilities far beyond her years. Emma probably had more to do with raising Lizzie than anyone else.
If Abby suited Andrew by being subservient, he probably also suited her by being wealthy. They both got what they thought they needed. I have to wonder whether Emma would have tolerated anyone as step-mother.

[Audrey]

There are so many contradictions in the dynamics of the family that I find it nearly impossible to get a real idea of the true level of dysfunction.

Andrew was miserly-- yet both Lizzie and Emma dressed well and Lizzie went to Europe.

They left a lamp burning in the kithen if Bridget was out late.

Andrew let Lizzie chose paint colors...

The moment the facts seem to indicate one way of thinking those Bordens throw us a curve ball!

[Kat]

Yes, and I was wondering about accounts of the happy times? Just to balance out the dysfunction...

[Angel]

There are so many contradictions in the dynamics of the family that I find it nearly impossible to get a real idea of the true level of dysfunction.

Andrew was miserly-- yet both Lizzie and Emma dressed well and Lizzie went to Europe.

They left a lamp burning in the kithen if Bridget was out late.

Andrew let Lizzie chose paint colors...

The moment the facts seem to indicate one way of thinking those Bordens throw us a curve ball!

There are so many pathological things that have been brought out so many times that it is hard to ignore them. Letting someone choose paint colors or giving someone clothes and trips doesn't erase that. No scenerio is all black or white, but the overall behavior and reactions in that family are way off kilter. My mother was a flaming narcissist and living with her as a child was a horror. Yet she thought she was being a great mother because she dressed me well and put on a great front. No matter how you cut it, it is not normal to paranoidly lock everything in one's home up like that, keep everyone so restricted socially, live in such a primitive way when one has money for basic things like plumbing and light, have members of the same family in such a small house refusing to eat with other members, referring to a mother figure in such an extremely formal manner because of years old grudges, letting others know in different ways how much they hate her, avoiding the company of men so completely, having rumors of weirdness and homosexuality running throughout the community (they don't come out of nowhere- something had to have started them), etc. etc. etc. The girls were so blatently repressed their behavior was way beyond the normal Victorian mode. The family was wound so tight something was bound to happen eventually.

[Kat]

There was an article in Rebello that quoted a man who said many Yankee families lived in similar quarters, who had similar fortunes.
Sometimes, when a person knows no other way, they are content.

Maybe when Lizzie went to Europe her eyes were really opened. It seems in quick succession we have that trip, the exchange of bedrooms between Emma and Lizzie, the completion of the "A.J. Borden Building," the robbery, the barn broken into, the killing of the pigeons and the painting of the house where Lizzie gets to pick the color. Quite an escalation of new things.

Not sure about the true *significance* of the locked doors though.
We do know that the girls ate separately and there was animosity toward Abby.

[DWilly]

There was an article in Rebello that quoted a man who said many Yankee families lived in similar quarters, who had similar fortunes.
Sometimes, when a person knows no other way, they are content.

Maybe when Lizzie went to Europe her eyes were really opened. It seems in quick succession we have that trip, the exchange of bedrooms between Emma and Lizzie, the completion of the "A.J. Borden Building," the robbery, the barn broken into, the killing of the pigeons and the painting of the house where Lizzie gets to pick the color. Quite an escalation of new things.

Not sure about the true *significance* of the locked doors though.
We do know that the girls ate separately and there was animosity toward Abby.

I can imagine that when Lizzie went to Europe she got a chance to see how the other half live. The food may have been better. The hotel accommodations nicer than her tiny room back in Fall River etc. Lizzie may have seen just how pathetic that room was when she got back. Didn't Lizzie even confide in one of her women friends that she dreaded going back to Fall River?

[Allen]

I find the locked doors to be very signifcant. What was the purpose of locking the doors? I do not keep any of the doors in my home locked, nor does anyone else. What is the need for it? The doors to the home were already locked barring anyone from getting in unexpectedly, so what were the locked doors on the inside really locked against?

[Allen]

Angel I've been meaning to ask you but haven't known where to put the question, who is that in your avatar? I really like it. She looks familiar but I can't say who it is. You've hit upon one of my areas of interest with that avatar. I like it. Maybe it's just because it is tiny and that makes it harder to see, but it looks a little like Clara Bow to me.

[Angel]

I don't know. I found it once and now I can't locate that picture. Sorry.

[doug65oh]

The "It" Girl? hmmm Try http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001966/photogallery
for pictures of her.

[RayS]

I find the locked doors to be very signifcant. What was the purpose of locking the doors? I do not keep any of the doors in my home locked, nor does anyone else. What is the need for it? The doors to the home were already locked barring anyone from getting in unexpectedly, so what were the locked doors on the inside really locked against?

But where do you live? I have relative who live in an isolated farmhouse. They never lock there doors day or night, they said. Keys are left in the car (not in ignition). Their dogs bark when strangers are near.
You would have to know the customs of that neighborhood. When Andy found the front door locked, he went around to the side door. Many people keep the front door locked, but not the back door. They don't want dirt tracked into the living room.
Besides, most burglaries occur when they come in through a basement window, or another window. One guy lets the other climb up on his shoulders, people think a window 8 feet of the ground will stop a person.
What is your experience?

[Audrey]

I find the locked doors to be very signifcant. What was the purpose of locking the doors? I do not keep any of the doors in my home locked, nor does anyone else. What is the need for it? The doors to the home were already locked barring anyone from getting in unexpectedly, so what were the locked doors on the inside really locked against?

But where do you live? I have relative who live in an isolated farmhouse. They never lock there doors day or night, they said. Keys are left in the car (not in ignition). Their dogs bark when strangers are near.
You would have to know the customs of that neighborhood. When Andy found the front door locked, he went around to the side door. Many people keep the front door locked, but not the back door. They don't want dirt tracked into the living room.
Besides, most burglaries occur when they come in through a basement window, or another window. One guy lets the other climb up on his shoulders, people think a window 8 feet of the ground will stop a person.
What is your experience?

I think Melissa was making mention of the interior doors. I live in a very rural location-- we do lock out exterior doors when when we are not home or asleep but apart from one of my children ocassionally locking the bathroom door against their siblings we do not lock doors between rooms.

[Haulover]

***Sisters so sexually repressed that others said, at least of Lizzie, that she avoided the company of men.***

this is interesting to me, because we don't know what she did with her time. we tend to imagine that no one but the bordens were there on 2nd street -- but in fact, fall river was not an isolated place. there were plenty of men going up and down the streets and literally at her front door. we don't know whether she was sexually repressed or secretly satisfied -- this is a fascinating question with me.

[DWilly]

***Sisters so sexually repressed that others said, at least of Lizzie, that she avoided the company of men.***

this is interesting to me, because we don't know what she did with her time. we tend to imagine that no one but the bordens were there on 2nd street -- but in fact, fall river was not an isolated place. there were plenty of men going up and down the streets and literally at her front door. we don't know whether she was sexually repressed or secretly satisfied -- this is a fascinating question with me.

No, we don't. The thing is should any of us start to fill in the gaps using just what we want to imagine she did ? Although it is fun to do and I am as guilty as the next person in doing it.

I have my own opinions and they are only opinions. Sometimes not even good ones Anyway, I personally, doubt a woman of Lizzie's era and background would talk to just anyone. Let alone hop into the barn hay with them. Besides, the whole town would have been talking about it after the trial if she had. I can hear it now, " Lizzie, Fall River's Town Tart"

[galacticgirl]

Hello! New here - many thanks to Harwid for posting this link on the imdb. The Legend of Lizzie Borden film has haunted me from the moment I first saw it. Flawed yes, but fascinating.

This place is a phenomenal resource! I can't get over how much more reading I have to do! The more I *do* read, the less I know about the case. Very frustrating. I get my hands on new information, swear I've figured it out and then it gets shot down with next tidbit I find.

I have to agree with Allen about the locked doors & wonder if anyone has ever done a modern day psychological profile of the killer, killings or the family? Would such an endeavor offer any new insight? (goodness knows some DNA tests would - if only!). I once shared a house with someone whose father had a similar penchant for locking doors, EVERY door in their house, no matter what time of day, etc. I wish I'd paid more attention to her analysis of this personality trait. I know her general explanation was that it was not normal - but I don't suppose her father was as wealthy as Andrew (if there even was THAT much in the home of a miser to steal that wasn't in a safe that *supposedly* took days to open!?). All I can find though on psychiatry sites are OCD discussions about *checking* locks.

My gut tells me Morse is the key - even though I've only come across glowing ravings about him & business acumen so far. Someone posted how rapidly things changed after Lizzie returned from Europe - I can't help but think how quickly things changed after Morse moved back east. The too-pat alibi, mentioning the 25yr old Nathan murder, his wondering about the culprit being in the house overnight, casually standing under that pear tree oblivious - after you've come all the way back to 2nd Street with the express purpose OF DINING you are standing around eating pears!? I have so many Morse questions to research: did he show up often *with no luggage* (even if you throw your clothes out, don't you need personal hygiene items?) & no advanced warning (isn't that rude - esp. in Victorian times - to show up unannounced and make the hostess rush around for food, sheets, spare room if other guests there, etc)? Why would he have a card to mail when just popping in for a quick visit? He *thinks* it was to W.Vinnecum!? Why didn't he zip one in the mail saying he was coming to FR? Were any remnants of all these allegedly eaten pears found? His AND Lizzie's? Pears aren't a thing I would eat if I had an upset stomach - esp. if they ate the pips & core & all (cough)! The Swansea farm visit - he came all that way unannounced just to drop off 3 pears? Chat about a new manager? Oxen? What on earth did he mean when he said Annie Morse was 'indisposed'!!?? And why is he so footloose & fancy free - never married? Always living with others? Was that common back then? For me it says a great deal about his mental state/personality/M.O.

A couple of other things I need to 'search' forum archives for:
Conversations you've had about rumours/stories/fabrications about Lizzie meeting with out--of-town attorneys to discuss her father's will. I don't for a second think he died intestate. He may have been cheap - yes, but his business dealings were so vast & varied it was beyond a simple 3-way division imho. I can't believe he was *that* advanced a feminist that he would leave 3 women to handle the winding-up (or continuance) of so many transactions? If that package under his arm was simply the morning paper he took daily, surely many people would have commented as such? Were the postal employees ever questioned about it's origin? Can't believe a lawyer never came forward.

Also: the out-of-town stay by Lizzie & Emma - what was it? A month before the murders? Very suspicious.

I would love to see a live-action-diorama (or re-enactment) of the area on the day in question. It is UNREAL the number of people out & about, watching the road for daughters, stealing pears out back, doing stone mason work, vomiting - seems absolutely incredulous that the mystery has never been officially solved. The conspiracy theorist in me wonders - if you remove the testimony of anyone who is suspect, what do we really know about what really went on? And why on earth didn't Lizzie come up with a better alibi if she DID do it? She had almost 2hrs to get her story straight - if it was by (unlikely) chance a fit of rage over something Abby said or did. I live in an old wooden house from 1929 - I can hear every noise up & down my whole street WITH THE WINDOWS CLOSED. I'm pretty positive I would have heard THAT many axe blows if I was washing windows or resting in my attic room.

I could go on and on for hours & pages - but too much reading to do! 3 books from library now - others booked & upcoming. All the official documents to get though - oh my! I just couldn't wait to post until I was up to speed. Could be years from now! Thanks again Harwid.

[Harry]

Hi galacticgirl, glad you could join us!

Uncle John Morse has always been my favorite character in the Borden case. The movie made a mistake by leaving him out. He is definitely a part of the story.

Kat and I recently discussed his supposed throwing away of his shirt when it was dirty. Looking at the context in which it was said his doing that is probably not true. No doubt he said it, but at the time he did he was kidding with the person who was paying him for travel miles as a witness. He was kiddingly trying to get paid for mileage from Iowa to New Bedford. The conversation as it appeared in the F.R. Herald (See Rebello, p272):

"Jollying the Treasurer / Uncle Morse Has a Little Fun About Witness Fees," Fall River Daily Herald, Friday, June 23, 1893: 7.

John V. Morse appeared at the county treasurer's office to collect his witness fees. Fees were based on mileage. The following conversation was recalled by the treasurer:

(Treasurer) Where do you come from?
(Morse) From Iowa.
(Treasurer) Ah! and how far is that?
(Morse) About 1600 miles.
(Treasurer) Where were you summoned from?
(Morse) From Fall River.
(Treasurer) Where do you live?
(Morse) Don't live anywhere about here; just knocking about now.
(Treasurer) Where do you have your wash done?
(Morse) Don't have any done; when one shirt is soiled I throw it away and buy another.
(Treasurer) Where have you been stopping recently? Where do you call your home for the present about here?
(Morse) Oh, well, I s'pose South Dartmouth [Massachusetts] is as near to it as any place.
(Treasurer) And how far is that?
(Morse) About two and one half miles.
(Treasurer) Well, I'll allow you three miles."

The treasurer used the wash question to try to pin him down to a specific location and Morse appears to be kidding him. At least that was our take.

BTW, I'm Harwid. Again, welcome!

[Kat]

That is so good that came out again: To show Morse's sense of humor and the kidding he could do even the year after the deaths.
People seemed to like listening to his stories too. He knew a lot of people and was widely travelled.

They would say of him at home out west:
"John Morse left for Boston last week and as usual, when John goes, the weather changes."-Feb. 23, 1905 (no newspaper name given).
and:
"If any one should ask why we are having this cold snap just tell them John Morse has gone back to Boston."--Glenwood Opinion, April 22, 1909.

[snokkums]

I think Andrew didn't want the girls to get spoiled, but I think he went alittle over board with it all though. He could have loosened up a bit.

[Harry]

Uncle John was unlike Andrew in a lot of ways. Far more genial.

That doesn't mean he wasn't somehow involved. His visit at that time itself is a mystery. Other than visiting his niece, who he had just seen shortly before, he accomplished little or nothing. His trip to Swansea seemed to be a joy ride. Delivering pears and picking up eggs? Kind of expensive eggs since he had to hire a carriage. But then he did have dinner with another relation.

His involvement, or lack of it, is one of the keys to unlocking some of the mystery to this case.

[RayS]

Uncle John was unlike Andrew in a lot of ways. Far more genial.

That doesn't mean he wasn't somehow involved. His visit at that time itself is a mystery. Other than visiting his niece, who he had just seen shortly before, he accomplished little or nothing. His trip to Swansea seemed to be a joy ride. Delivering pears and picking up eggs? Kind of expensive eggs since he had to hire a carriage. But then he did have dinner with another relation.

His involvement, or lack of it, is one of the keys to unlocking some of the mystery to this case.

I'd suggest that the carriage ride for pears and eggs was a cover story for his real mission: arranging a meeting between Andy and Billy. IMO, if this was B4 the murders.
His claim of "1600 miles" shows an attempt to get a lot more money that the actual 3 miles of travel. When refused, he just laughed it off?

[Allen]

Uncle John was unlike Andrew in a lot of ways. Far more genial.

That doesn't mean he wasn't somehow involved. His visit at that time itself is a mystery. Other than visiting his niece, who he had just seen shortly before, he accomplished little or nothing. His trip to Swansea seemed to be a joy ride. Delivering pears and picking up eggs? Kind of expensive eggs since he had to hire a carriage. But then he did have dinner with another relation.

His involvement, or lack of it, is one of the keys to unlocking some of the mystery to this case.

This isn't the first visit that Morse seems to have been involved in leisure activities, or that he hired transportation. He states in testimony he was in town for a visit at the end of June, he brought Mr. Davis's daughter with him, and Emma accompanied them also. He hired a horse and they 'went to ride' and to the steamboat. he did not even stay the night, he came over in the morning and went back that same night. It seems from testimony that his last two visits he accomplished little or nothing, other than visiting around and spending time doing leisure activities. I think this seemed to be his way when he came to visit or to stay. I have never seen anything odd about his behavior.

[Allen]

Inquest testimony of John V. Morse page 96:

Q. The last time you were here before this murder was when?
A. I should think somewhere about the 10th of July.

Q. How long did you stay?
A. I did not stay but a short time, I was here overnight, but I went down to an Aunt's on the Stafford Road at the time.

Q. What is her name?
A. Catherine Boudray.

Q. Before that, can you recall the last time you were there?
A. It was somewhere the last of June. I know Phebe Curry was sick at that time, she died a little afterwards, I think about the last of June.

Q. Did you stop all night?
A. No sir, came over in the morning and went back at night. I can tell about the time if you want me to. There was a lady came over, Mr. Davis' daughter, with me. We drove over in the afternoon. I hired a horse, and Mr. Borden's daughter went to ride, we went down to the steam boat. I took her home after dark.

There seems to be a pattern that when he came into town he spent time visiting, and doing leisure time activities.

[Allen]

Another question I've always had about this testimony is who was Phebe Curry? Was she someone he visited in Fall River? I've done some searching and there is a Phebe Curry listed in the 1880 census who lived in Fall River. It lists her birth year as 1815 making her 77 in 1892.

[Harry]

One of the things he supposedly went to the Swansea farm was to make arrangements for moving some oxen for for Mr. Davis's use in Dartmouth.

Mr. Eddy who ran the Swansea farm said in the Witness statements (p36):

"John V. Morse came over to this house Wednesday evening Aug. 3, between seven and eight o'clock. He drove a horse and top buggy; said it was a stable team. He came in the house and brought a rattan basket, took out three pears and laid on the table, said he brought them over from the Borden house. He said Mr. Borden sent him over to see how I was, and get the eggs. Said Mr. Borden was coming with him, but he, his wife and Lizzie were taken sick last night, and he couldn't come. He said he stopped to supper at Mr. Vinnecum's who lives a short distance from here. I said to him, after he got his eggs, "how about the oxen Mr. Davis of South Dartmouth was to have to use?" "I am going back and see Mr. Borden, and think we will make arrangements to get them back over Saturday morning", was the reply. Mr. Morse stayed here perhaps ten or fifteen minutes."

Why would he have to go back and discuss moving the oxen with Andrew when he just came from there? It was one of the reasons he went there in the first place. It's also interesting that Eddy says the oxen "was to use" so I assume it was not a sale but that they were being borrowed.

I had always thought that Morse went to the farm first and then to Vinnicums but it appears from Eddy's statement it was the opposite.

[Kat]

Yes Morse let it be known that he was *expected* at Scond Street just when he felt like coming but also, this visit especially, when he had made some arrangement to get a man to manage the farm and to get some oxen deal going.
Harry is saying that with these actual plans in mind and given by Morse as reasons for his visit this time, nothing got done except the exchange of pears for eggs. Oh, and supper at Vinnicums.
After traveling to Swansea for a purpose, Morse only stayed 15 minutes at the farm out of a day in which he was out for at least 5 hours.

[Allen]

I said to him, after he got his eggs, "how about the oxen Mr. Davis of South Dartmouth was to have to use?" "I am going back and see Mr. Borden, and think we will make arrangements to get them back over Saturday morning", was the reply.

This does imply, to me at least, that the business may not have been fully discussed between he and Andrew at the time of the conversation. This could be why nothing was accomplished. Since we have no way of knowing what they sat up discussing that night we can't say he didn't go back and discuss it later that evening and plan out how things were to be done. Andrew was also sick. This may have hindered things a bit. He was too sick to make the trip out to the farm with Morse for example. Since the Borden's knew he was coming, but really had no idea when, maybe things had been put off a little when he got there because he arrived unexpectedly. Maybe they liked to catch up on things first before jumping right into business. Andrew had told them they would not talk about anything to do with the deal until Morse got there. So nothing had been decided before Morse got there.

[Allen]

I guess what I'm getting at is, it is shown by testimony that Morse just showed up at the Borden's pretty much whenever he felt like it. Even when he was to do business with Andrew he just showed up at his leisure to do it. There was no set date for him to show up. He said they were expecting him, but were not sure when he would arrive. He showed up 'just as it happened.' This also to me doesn't speak of someone who is going to be ready to just jump right into getting the business done upon arrival.

[Kat]

Somewhere around here I've shown all the testimony of Morse as to his different reasons for coming. It was recently.
Morse is asked and he replies that he did have these things to do. They are his reasons.
Besides, he came Wednesday and talked to Andrew thru dinner and on into the sitting room before he left to go to Swanea, like 90 minutes. He had to hire a conveyance to go. He probably would not have incurred such an expense if there was not a purpose. Andrew supposedly told Morse he did not want to decide about hiring someone Morse might reccommend, according to Morse, until Andrew saw Morse. Well, Andrew didn't go to the farm with Morse because he was ill, but I doubt that stopped them from discussing Morse's supposed chore he was to carry out for Andrew.

Inquest
98-99
Morse
Q. You do not think you had written announcing your visit at this time?
A. I dont think I did. Let me see, let me tell it as I can think of it. Mr. Borden, when I was over here sometime in July, that I speak of, wanted to know if I knew of a man he could get on his farm, to take charge of it, I told him I did not know, I would see. When I got back I wrote him I knew of a man I thought would suit him, I would send him over. He wrote back to me he had rather I would wait until I saw him. I have his letter in my pocket, if you want to see it.
Q. What was the date of that letter? You may refresh your memory. If you have no objections, I will see it.
(Witness produces the letter dated July 25, 1892.)
Q. Have you any objection to me keeping this?
A. No Sir, I would not like it lost, because it was the last one I ever had from him.
Q. That, then, was the last correspondence before you came over?
A. That is the last.
Q. You did not write him you were coming?
A. No Sir.
Q. You came partially in pursuance of that request?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was that about ten days before you came?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. So they were not expecting you that particular day, but were looking for you at any time?
A. Yes Sir.

~ ~ ~

The reason I bring up all the testimony as to why Morse says he came, is because when it is all read and absorbed in total, at once, it definitely becomes very suspicious.
And Morse would not have to have done anything for Andrew by Saturday, if he knew Andrew would no longer be alive.

[Kat]

When you want someone to die
Don't just sit around and cry.
Put some poison in their food
Be prepared for their bad mood.
Get some advice from Uncle Morse
He's in the biz, he'll know, of course.
He suggests you get a hatchet
"There's nothing else that can match it!
But wait until I go away-
don't worry- I'll be back that day."

[Allen]

I guess that's one way to look at it. I guess I look at all that testimony in a different way. Because when I read the same testimony Kat just posted, I tend to think it illustrates the point I was trying to make. I have read all the testimony. He was there in July when they first talked about it, he contacted him first in July about knowing someone, but he didn't arrive until August to actually do anything about it. When he finally did arrive they had no idea when he was coming, or how long he was going to stay when he got there,and nothing had been discussed until he was actually there. This doesn't sound like a lets get right down to business kind of deal. I'm wondering if he wanted to get to Swansea, even to visit and have dinner with a relative, how else would he have gotten there if he hadn't hired transportation?

[Kat]

I added an edit to my post, about the time you posted. It's the last line, about Saturday.
I know you have read all the testimony. I didn't mean to imply you hadn't. But maybe people reading this have not...
Anyway, Morse was to arrange for oxen as well. Which he didn't.
The thing people bring up is that Morse was a horseman- some think he would just have ridden over from Dartmouth.
But Morse took the train, then had to hire a conveyance to go to Swansea. It doesn't sound like he was prepared to do what he said he came to do, so why come at all? He also said he could have left the same day on the 6 o'clock train.
It doesn't make sense- he gives reasons for coming and accomplishes nothing. He spends $ on the train, when there might have been teams he could have hired locally in Dartmouth, or even borrowed, and driven over to Swansea after stopping in Fall River. He didn't plan on staying because he came with no luggage and mentions the train schedule back on Wednesday. Mr. Davis, in the newspapers, also thinks Morse will be back at least by the next day. Why should Morse put off the errands he came to do, and have to come again on Saturday to do it all again? More money for a hired team or a train ticket etc. More time traveling, etc.

[Allen]

I think the reason this visit gets over analyzed is because it happened to be the night before the murders. The money for the train ticket, or the team, or whatever, I don't think amounted to enough to make it such a big deal. Morse wasn't hurting for money. I think hiring a team was a pretty standard mode of transportation back then, sort of like a taxi is now. We think nothing of taking a taxi when we need one, though sure we grumble about the price. It could've been he accomplished nothing because he thought he had more time. He didn't know Andrew was going to die.

[Audrey]

When my Joey was in 4th grade, he and a group of other children spent their entire recess making a snow fort. They were quite proud of it and by all reports it was a sight to behold. There was (and still is) a girl in their class who sneaked over to the school yard after school was dismissed and totally smashed it all to bits. Of course she was seen doing this and word got out as to who had done the dastardly deed. The other children busied themselves plotting the perfect revenge, and were it not for a nosy mom overhearing the plans and alerting the other parents-- they might have carried it out!

I asked Joey why he thought she did it, after all she was one of the kids who helped make it. He told me she was 'mean'. He wasn't really able to give me a specific example (other than this incident) as to why he thought she was 'mean-- but was very firm in his opinion.

I do not know her parents well, but do know them and they seem like nice enough people. They have a total of 2 children, both girls and they are involved in the church and send both of their daughters to a private, christian school.

Joey's classmate has been blamed (sometimes with proof) of breaking other kid's toys, destroying their school supplies, wrecking art projects and other destructive things such as this.

Last year the younger sister of this girl and my Torrey were attending a 'Brownie Scout' meeting and this other girl went to the restroom. The meeting was held in a church basement and the ladies cloak room adjoins the ladies restroom... Kind of an odd set up. The girl used Torrey's scarf as toilet paper..... Well... All hell broke loose. Torrey is my 'Mini-Me' and was not about to take any crap from this other child.

Anyway... My point is-- there has to be something about these children that make them as they are. Neither of these behaviors is normal in any sense of the word.

This post had me thinking about them and wondering about the dynamics in their home.

Who really knows what goes on behind closed doors.

[Kat]

Somewhere around here I've shown all the testimony of Morse as to his different reasons for coming. It was recently.
Morse is asked and he replies that he did have these things to do. They are his reasons.
Besides, he came Wednesday and talked to Andrew thru dinner and on into the sitting room before he left to go to Swanea, like 90 minutes. He had to hire a conveyance to go. He probably would not have incurred such an expense if there was not a purpose. Andrew supposedly told Morse he did not want to decide about hiring someone Morse might reccommend, according to Morse, until Andrew saw Morse. Well, Andrew didn't go to the farm with Morse because he was ill, but I doubt that stopped them from discussing Morse's supposed chore he was to carry out for Andrew.

--Kat

Here are the diverse testimonies of Morse and info provided on the side, as to Morses' expected actions during his Aug. 3rd- 4th visit:

Inquest
Morse
98

A. I dont think I did. Let me see, let me tell it as I can think of it. Mr. Borden, when I was over here sometime in July, that I speak of, wanted to know if I knew of a man he could get on his farm, to take charge of it, I told him I did not know, I would see. When I got back I wrote him I knew of a man I thought would suit him, I would send him over. He wrote back to me he had rather I would wait until I saw him. I have his letter in my pocket, if you want to see it.
(Witness produces the letter dated July 25, 1892.)
Q. Have you any objection to me keeping this?
A. No Sir, I would not like it lost, because it was the last one I ever had from him.
Q. That, then, was the last correspondence before you came over?
A. That is the last.
Q. You did not write him you were coming?
A. No Sir.
Q. You came partially in pursuance of that request?
A. Yes Sir.

_______________

Preliminary Hearing
Morse
237
Q. Whose farm did you go over to?
A. Mr. Vinnecum’s and Mr. Borden’s both.

Q. Mr. Borden has a place over there?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. Did you have some business of Mr. Borden’s over there?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. I do not care to go into the particulars of it. You had some business relating to Mr. Borden at the farm?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. Something about hiring a man, was it not?
A. I went more particularly over there that day to see about some cattle I bought of him. I thought I would make arrangements to take them.

.........

246
Q. Did you see Mr. Eddy when you were over at the farm the night before?
A. I did.

Q. Did you give him any message from Mr. Borden?
A. No Sir.

Q. Or tell him Mr. Borden sent you over there?
A. No Sir. There was one thing I forgot. I got some eggs from there for Mr. Borden; that is all.

Q. For him?
A. Yes Sir.
.........

248
Q. Then you went over to Swansea and did an errand for Mr. Borden, got some eggs for him?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. Did he request you to get them?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. And you saw Mr. Borden’s farmer about some cattle which you had bargained for from Mr. Borden, I understood?
A. Yes Sir.
______

Witness Statements
36
"Frederick Eddy made the following statement. 'John V. Morse came over to this house Wednesday evening Aug. 3, between seven and eight o’clock. He drove a horse and top buggy; said it was a stable team. He came in the house and brought a rattan basket, took out three pears and laid on the table, said he brought them over from the Borden house.He said Mr. Borden sent him over to see how I was, and get the eggs. Said Mr. Borden was coming with him, but he, his wife and Lizzie were taken sick last night, and he couldn’t come. He said he stopped to supper at Mr. Vinnecum’s, who lives a short distance from here. I said to him, after he got his eggs,"how about the oxen Mr. Davis of South Dartmouth was to have to use?” “I am going back and see Mr. Borden, and think we will make arrangements to get them back over Saturday morning”, was the reply. Mr. Morse stayed here perhaps ten or
fifteen minutes.' "

Evening Standard, Aug. 5, 1892, pg. 4:
"...Upon being questioned, Mr. Davis said that for several weeks he [Morse] had talked of purchasing a pair of cattle of Mr. Borden, and on Thursday, after shaving Mr. Davis, he (Morse) started on foot to take the electric car for the city, intending to take the train for Fall River.
A daughter of Mr. Davis, who was present during this conversation, stated that Morse wore a light gray suit and that it was his intention of returning home last night.
Continuing, Mr. Davis said Morse was to have purchased additional cattle while away, and that he also expected to run over to Warren to see his uncle. His purchases were to have been brought home with him."...
________________

Notice the man at the farm explicitly states in what manner Morse traveled. "[Morse] Said it was a stable team." That shows he discussed the equippage with Morse- he asked about it or Morse volunteered the information.

Anyway, here are the references collected together.
Morse need not have given any reason for coming, if he really was there for no reason- since he did have a reputation for dropping by- but not this time.

[Allen]

Am I in the minority when it comes to believing he had no part in it?

[Angel]

I don't think Morse had anything directly to do with the murders, but I truly believe he knew how unstable Lizzie was and either was there to help control the situation and failed or he was covering for her after the fact.

[Kat]

The thing that impresses me is that Morse built upon his reasons for coming, and he did it over time. He probably started before the July letter (that he had in his pocket). He let people know his objectives. He planned ahead of time, and spoke about it.
Another thing is that this man he knew of for the farm- that man probably wouldn't be sitting around for 2 weeks waiting to see if Andrew was going to hire him- not the kind of man that runs a farm. If there was a man like that, and Andrew needed him, they would hire him.

Another interpretation of all this could be that Lizzie and/or Emma got wind of these arrangements, knew he was coming and planned accordingly. Now someone who knew Morse was coming, and needed such a person around to innocently throw into the mix to cause confusion might be possible. But why would someone do that- essentially set up Morse?
I'm not saying he was set up or he was there to help- these things I don't know. I've been saying it's suspicious. But I don't think Morse staying at the Borden house over the time of the killings was random or a coincidence. If he wasn't part of his own plan- or someone else's plan unknowingly- then they probably would have waited to act until he left. It must have been better for him to be there than to not be there. So far, that's the only point I'm trying to make.

[diana]

Over the years I've come to realize nothing is ever certain in this case -- but at this point I lean toward Morse not being involved in the murders.

Morse may have come across as a tad eccentric but was definitely not a loner -- on the contrary, he seems to have been a congenial man who enjoyed the company of others.

He lived or boarded with various people and their families during most of his life. These included his brother William and his brother- in-law John Davidson as well Davidson's family. He also lived with a Chapin family and their three children and then another couple, the Van Ausdales, when he was in Hastings, Iowa.

Rebello says that "throughout his life" Morse came east during the summer and winter months to Fall River, New Bedford, Rhode Island, and Boston to visit friends and relatives.

So it doesn't seem odd to me that he dropped in on the Bordens in August or made a trip across town to visit the teenage children of his brother, William when he found out they were visiting Fall River. He appears to be a man who liked to keep in touch with those he knew. (sourced from Rebello, 70)


[I remember puzzling over Phebe Curry, too, Melissa. I can't remember if we ever determined who she might be. There's an archived thread that has some discussion about this but it dates back to 2002 -- and I don't know if there's anything more current.

http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Archi ... Lurana.htm

and start with message #31]

[Yooper]

If Morse and Andrew had something cooked up between them other than that which Morse testified to, it might explain his presence. Morse didn't anticipate Andrew's illness, which may have spoiled whatever plan they might have had. His movements seem like someone making the best of an unforeseen setback.

[Harry]

The 1891 and 1892 Fall River city directories list Phoebe Currier boarding at 78 Second St. They also show Phoebe Warner, widow of Sumner, residing at that same address.

Also living at that same address in 1892 was Charles Sawyer who was drafted by the police to guard the side door on the 4th.

Curious and curiouser.

I think you have to look at Morse's visit on the 4th as part of his total involvement. I am not saying he was involved but he certainly is suspicious. Am not going to list all the things that make one feel that way as they have been discussed many times. No single incident convicts him yet they leave a lot unexplained and to be explored further.

[Yooper]

I think Morse would have actively participated in an effort to minimize or even cover up Lizzie's possible involvement. Lizzie and Emma were his only blood relations in the Borden household and he might have taken what he thought was his sister's perspective. I can see him behaving like what he thought his sister might have wanted.

[diana]

In the Witness Statements, Harrington reports that on August 17 he visited:
"Mrs Phebe Warner of Second street, with whom Mrs. Currier, Mr. Borden’s sister, lived and said, knew nothing substantial. During her sickness which was quite long, the Bank street Church took care of her. Mr. Borden and the girls called once in a while. Mr. Borden gave her $10. each Christmas." (W.S.,17)

Phebe Currier may well be the Phebe 'Curry' in Morse's testimony who had passed on by the time of the murders. The link I gave previously in this thread talks about the possiblity that Phebe Currier may have cared for the Borden girls for a time after Sarah Borden died. Pure speculation here but perhaps the police interviewed her because someone remembered her in this capacity and confused her with Andrew's sister Lurana who also looked after the girls.

That's interesting that Charles Sawyer lived there, too. Remember he testifed at the inquest that he bought vinegar and other small items from the Bordens?

So there was more than one link between 78 and 92 Second Street.

[diana]

Continuing the curioser and curioser theme -- I found this after my last post. This genealogical site claims Andrew did have a sister named Phebe.

http://sjcook.com/genealogy/TNG/descend ... a8a82bdc15

Haven't we always thought that Andrew (born 1822) had twin sisters born in 1824 (Charlotte, who died at age 3 -- and Lurana who didn't survive her first year) and one surviving sister, also called Lurana, who was born in 1826?

The link above does not list the twin Lurana who died in infancy -- but does show a sister, Phebe born 5 years later, in 1829.

[Kat]

The genealogy by Earl & Son of the Bordens, put out by the FRHS shows a Phebe Ann as sister to Andrew (#221), b. Feb. 19, 1829.
It doesn't show her mate. Or her death date.
This also does not list the twin of Charlotte.
Sorry I didn't look there sooner.

[diana]

So is there any way we can find out if the Phebe Currier in the Fall River Directories was a widow? And if her maiden name was Borden? Was Harrington right then, when he said she was Andrew's sister?

If she was, that might explain why Morse used her death as a marker when testifying as to the timing of his Fall River visits.

I know very little about determining genealogy. That area of study has always seemed incredibly daunting to me and I'm in awe of the forum members who persevere with it.

For example, how can we know if the Earl & Son publication put out by the FRHS is correct? And how can we find out the date of Phebe Ann Borden's death?

[Allen]

oops.

[Allen]

Census records will list the name of the spouse if there is one at the time. I've always tried looking there. It will also list whether or not she is a widow if her husband has died.

[Allen]

For the Phebe Curry who lived in Fall River in 1880 this is the information I am finding for her.

Name: Phebe Curry
Age: 65
Estimated birth year: abt 1815
Birthplace: Massachusetts
Occupation: Tailoress
Relationship to head-of-household: Self
Home in 1880: Fall River, Bristol, Massachusetts
Marital status: Single
Race: White
Gender: Female
Father's birthplace: RI
Mother's birthplace: RI