Contents Of Andrew's Pockets

[dinglefarb]

I have read sooo much about Lizzie these last several months I cannot remember where I saw a list of what Andrew had in his pockets when he was killed. I recall some tobacco product...snuff or chew. Anyone have the list or know where I can find it? I feel a poem coming on.
THANKS!
Larry Allen

[Allen]

Trial testimony of William A. Dolan page 864-865:

Q. What did the body of Mr. Borden have on?
A. On the outside, a cardigan jacket, that is a woolen jacket, black vest and black trousers, and a pair of congress boots.

Q. Did you at the time notice anything about what we commonly call his "valuables"?
Q. Yes, sir, he had a watch and pocketbook.

Q. Did you examine the pocket book?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you see what there was in the pocketbook?
A. Yes, sir.

Page 865

Q. What did you find in the pocket book?
A. Found some money in bills and some in specie.

Q. Do you remember how much money?
A. I could not tell the exact figure; I have it here in my notes.

Q. Refer to them.
A. He had $81.65.

Q. Was that all in the pocketbook?
A. I think it was, -- possibly some specie in his pocket. I think it was all in his pocket, as far as I recollect.

Q. The largest portion of that in bills?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. The 65 cents only in change, or some change?
A. 65 cents in change. I have the denomination of bills and the money if you'd like?

Q. You may give them if you please.
A. He had four ten dollar bills, five fives, one two dollar bill, eleven ones, two fifty cent pieces, three twenty-five cent pieces, six tens, five five-cent pieces, and five one cent pieces.

Q. Did you find anything else in his pocketbook?
A. No, sir, not in his pocketbook.

Q. And the watch and chain were on his person in the usual place?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. That is on his vest?
A. In his upper vest pocket, the watch.

Q. Did you find any other articles of jewelry?
A. He had a ring on his left hand, -- I am not quite positive as to that.

Q. What kind of ring, apparently?
A. I forget, really.

Q. Do you remember whether it was silver or gold?
A. Gold, if I remember correctly.

I am still looking for the reference to the tobacco found on his person. I cannot remember where I read that bit of information either.

[FairhavenGuy]

Trial testimony of William A. Dolan page 864-865:

Q. What did the body of Mr. Borden have on?
A. On the outside, a cardigan jacket, that is a woolen jacket, black vest and black trousers, and a pair of congress boots.

Q. Did you at the time notice anything about what we commonly call his "valuables"?
Q. Yes, sir, he ::giggle:: he um. . .::giggle, giggle:: his "valuables" were ::giggle:: just a moment, sir, I. . .um. . . ::cough::

[Harry]

The tobacco reference is in the Preliminary.

Page 194

"(Dr. Dolan recalled.)
Q. (Mr. Adams.) Have you got the keys here?
A. I have. Everything is just as I got it, I have not opened it.
Q. Wont you examine, and produce the keys?
A. (Witness produces the keys.)
Q. Is that the large key you speak of?
A. That was the one I referred to; I did not notice this.
Q. Are these three, namely, the bunch of keys, and the two separate keys, are those all the keys?
A. Yes Sir, so far as I can see.
Q. I see you have produced some fine cut chewing tobacco; you understood that Mr. Borden was not in the habit of using tobacco, chewing tobacco?
A. I do not know; I could not tell you.
Q. You do not know, except that there is a package of partly used fine chewing tobacco?
A. Yes Sir."

If you add up the denominations of currency that Dr. Dolan listed at the trial they total $80.65 not $81.65.

[Kat]

This is weird. I was just thinking about that tobacco in Andrew's effects yesterday while I was swimming - he didn't imbibe as far as we know...and then here's the question.
The dribble of yellow that looked like blood at first on the dining room doorway turned out to be soup or tobacco juice, I think.

[Kat]

Oh, thanks for the source Har!

[Allen]

I would have figured it to be Harry who would find the source for the tobacco reference.

[Allen]

Trial testimony of William A. Dolan page 864-865:

Q. What did the body of Mr. Borden have on?
A. On the outside, a cardigan jacket, that is a woolen jacket, black vest and black trousers, and a pair of congress boots.

Q. Did you at the time notice anything about what we commonly call his "valuables"?
Q. Yes, sir, he ::giggle:: he um. . .::giggle, giggle:: his "valuables" were ::giggle:: just a moment, sir, I. . .um. . . ::cough::

BTW Fairhavenguy your post had me "giggling" for quite some time after I read it.

[Kat]

Me too!

[nbcatlover]

Wasn't Andrew supposedly carrying an envelope? Is that what he put the tobacco in? My supposition was that he purchased/obtained a small amount of tobacco and was bringing it back for Uncle John Morse for lunchtime.

The fact that Andrew has cash implies that he did expect one of his employees from the farm to come back to be paid. The tobacco could have been for him as well, as an apology for making him come back to be paid. According to Lizzie, Andrew was known to be kind to his employees.

Would either of these ideas be plausible to you for Andrew having tobacco on his person?

[Allen]

Wasn't Andrew supposedly carrying an envelope? Is that what he put the tobacco in? My supposition was that he purchased/obtained a small amount of tobacco and was bringing it back for Uncle John Morse for lunchtime.

This idea seems plausible. Do we know if John Morse used tobacco, and would he have gotten it himself since he was out? It is possible Andrew may have picked it up because it was a bargain at the time, or on sale, and figured John could use it if he did have a habit of using it.

I've also read in many books from that era that tobacco had medicinal uses, among them as a remedy or antidote to poison. It also served many other uses around the household. Others uses included curing dropsy, settling upset stomachs, could be used as a disinfectant, as an insecticide, and as stated below, as a medicine for hernia. Which we know Andrew had. The two angles I find interesting are poison remedy and using it for hernia. Not saying any of these are why he was carrying it, but still interesting.


Tobacco: Its Use and Abuse -By J. B. Wight, published in 1892.

It's range is being narrowed. But, medicinally, tobacco is not without it's virtues. As many as seventeen properties are ascribed to it. It is errhine, sternutatory, sialogogue, emetic, cathartic, expectorant, cholagogue, diaphoretic, diuretic, antispasmodic, nervine, stimulant, narcotic, anaesthetic, anaphrodisiac, parturifacient, and antiparasitic. Dr. John Lizars says that dropsical swellings sometimes disappear under operations of this drug. It has been used with advantage as an injection in some cases of strangulated hernia; but where thus used its effects have so often been fatal that the best physicians now discourage its use for this purpose, especially as there are other remedies which are as efficacious, and much less dangerous.


The Pharamceutical Journal and Transactions- by the Pharmaceutical Society of Great Britain, published in 1891.

Looking only at the extreme opposite effects of tobacco and strychnine he put a pinch of about 6 or 8 grains of tobacco in hot water and gave the boy and injection; he had no stychnine rigors, and in fact took no harm from it. He always said that should such a case occur again that the first remedy he should fly to as an antidote to strychnine was tobacco. He had also seen the action of tobacco some time ago, in a very bad case of pain from passage of a gallstone, where the limbs had become contracted with pain to a distressing extent. An injection of tobacco relieved the pain in less than ten minutes. He thought the medicinal use of tobacco was no sufficiently known.

Transactions- By Eclectic MedicalSociety of the State of New York, Eclectic
Medical Society of the State of New York, Published 1878.

It has already been stated that the proper place for tobacco is upon the list of medicinal agents. But it has too often been proposed for such a purpose where it was exceedingly ill-advised. Medical men have often shown themselves, in this respect, great novices in science and matters of common sense. This article has often been prescribed where the remedy was infinitely worse than the disease. Many have said: "Tobacco was recommended to me by a physician to cure a watery stomach." The first objection to its use in any such case, or, indeed, in any other case by mouth, is, it never cures the disease. The second objection is, it is never taken like other medicines and then laid aside.All that can be done or that is generally needed in such a case is abstaining from the cause which produced and prolonged difficulty, and giving nature a chance to relieve herself of the disease.

[Harry]

Dr. Dolan described the package of tobacco on Andrew as "partly used". We know of no store that he stopped at on the 4th that he could have purchased it so it may have been on his person when he left the house that morning.

I don't know of Uncle Morse using tobacco but we certainly don't know much about any of their personal habits.

[Shelley]

Wasn't there a mention of a spitoon in the sitting room? Andrew may have chewed tobacco.

[Kat]

I don't know the reference to a spittoon, and Harry's quote shows Andrew was "not in the habit." It might have been a one-time deal, tho.
Andrew carrying it for someone does sound plausible. The guy from the farm said he would have come to town Thursday if Morse had not collected the eggs. Maybe it was for him?

A relief from hernia, is interesting- how about for appetite suppression, or antiparasitic? Maybe Andrew thought his vomiting and diarrhea etc was from worms?

[nbcatlover]

Here's a "Harry" post from the Archives (the bolding is mine):

1. "Tobacco and Andrew"
Posted by harry on Jan-17th-03 at 10:33 PM


Dr. Dolan at the Preliminary produced some of the items found on Andrew at the time of death. Here on page 194 he is being questioned by Adams:

Q. I see you have produced some fine cut chewing tobacco; you understood that Mr. Borden was not in the habit of using tobacco, chewing tobacco?
A. I do not know; I could not tell you.
Q. You do not know, except that there is a package of partly used fine chewing tobacco?
A. Yes Sir.

On page 1718 of the Trial, Robinson's closing argument, tobacco is mentioned again:

"They had the stringy spot on this door post, of blood; and they would convict somebody of it on the theory that the person stood inside the door of the dining room and as he threw the handle of the hatchet over it struck there. Dr. Dolan said it was blood. Well, Prof. Wood examined it, and he said it was tobacco juice."
Maybe old Andy did now and then have a chaw. Also, rather strange that Dr. Dolan can't tell the difference between blood and tobacco juice.

It certainly makes a spittoon in the Borden home more plausible, Shelley.

My grandfather had a "house" spittoon. It had a holder shaped like a turtle. You stepped on the head and the shell would open revealing the spittoon.

[irina]

Tobacco in Andrew's pocket. Tobacco spit on a door, first thought to be blood. Maybe Andrew did chew.

[Curryong]

Yes, the yellow stain or mark business on the door was quite amusing. It was speculated that it was soup! The good Professor had to take the 'sample' out of the courtroom to another room with better light before he came back and admitted it wasn't blood!

How typical of Andrew to put the tobacco in an envelope! I'll bet it was a used one he'd found somewhere! I still think it was probably for medicinal purposes, however. Anything was better than having to pay for a doctor's potions! I do think the stain was probably tobacco and I don't think it was there long. Maybe Andrew had one last chew on that Thursday morning and, if he did have a spittoon, it missed its target and a morsel splattered on the door behind the couch.

[debbiediablo]

Maybe it was in his mouth when the hatchet struck the first blow...or second. Tobacco is an entirely foreign substance to me so.... would he have been laying down with it tucked in his cheek for medicinal purposes.

[Curryong]

Do you know, debbie, I have wondered that myself. Was he snoozing with a little chewed baccy in his mouth? What a picture!

[irina]

Possibly Andrew and Morse had a chew together. Maybe Morse gave Andrew part of a package, you know, like two guys having a drink and a cigar. Except I doubt liquor was ever in the Borden household. With the attention to housekeeping detail we seem to see in the house I doubt the spit was on the door for long.

Yes, he could have laid down for a nap with a chew between cheek and gum. The injuries to Andrew's face were more toward the top of his head. It was noted that he had some level of false teeth which he rinsed in the kitchen sink. Apparently these didn't go flying during the attack. Therefore I would think tobacco in his mouth would have stayed put or dribbled out.

In those days spittoons were part or the household gear, like ash trays were in my young years. I once asked my mom why she always presented an ash tray to guests since my parents didn't smoke and didn't like it personally. She said it was custom, something a person did to make guests comfortable. All in all those times were better when people tolerated each other. Now there is no tolerance of anything and everyone wants to tell everyone else how to live. I'm glad I didn't live in the days of spittoons though.

Considering contents of Andrew's pockets, there was a bit of watch braid buried with the clothes, etc. Andrew's pocket watch was intact, along with the braid apparently. So where did that bit of watch braid come from? Didn't have to be related to Andrew's body/pocket contents but it is just a very odd bit of material to get mixed up in the mess.

[Curryong]

Yes, I expect you are correct about the tobacco drizzling rather than spurting as far as Andrew was concerned. The stain certainly couldn't have been soup, as was a suggestion at the time! Spittoons, and spitting tobacco in general, seems to have been a feature of American life in the 19th century. In the 1840's Charles Dickens (then on a book tour) mentions it with some disapproval.

When I first came to Australia (in 1970) I was very surprised by the regulations in cinemas against smoking. It was still permitted in British cinemas then. A good deal of smoking went on in pubs in both countries and I suppose bar staff became passive smokers as a result.

I've never smoked, except briefly in my teens, but my ex husband was a smoker from the age of nine, !! and my elder daughter still smokes. It would be very unusual to find a venue that provides ash trays here, and most private homes don't keep them any more.

As far as Andrew's watch braid is concerned, some of the clothing was probably quickly stripped by the undertaker's assistant, and the watch braid may have just been impatiently snipped off rather than unhooked. He was, of course, required to hand over to Dolan anything of value and keys, money, watch, would have been taken and quickly shoved in a pile. I can't see him taking that much trouble with such things.

There was an ongoing joke on the 'All about Andrew' thread about the lack of clothing for Andrew in that notorious buried pile, including the Prince Albert, which disappears from history never to be mentioned again! We decided that the Prince Albert (and Andrew's trousers, perhaps) must have been quickly sent to the dry cleaners so he could wear it at his funeral, for sentimental reasons!

[debbiediablo]

No one in our household smokes. Except my husband enjoys a few very fine cigars while he prepares income taxes. I suppose just because no one in the Borden household was an habitual user doesn't mean they never, ever enjoyed a nip.

[irina]

Curryong: I am so surprised they allowed smoking in British theaters. It's never been allowed in this country in my lifetime. I think there was some terrible theater fire or maybe it was because of the Cocoanut Grove fire which was actually a night club. A legal comment on our few restrictions on free speech is that, "You can't yell fire in a crowded theater." We seem to have a fixation about fires in theaters.

From my research it seems Australia and New Zealand are very restrictive on smoking at this time. My research tells me both countries are very much in line with the WHO/UN actions concerning same.

I enjoyed the humor about Andrew's clothes. In reality it is very possible he was killed in his good suit and that is indeed what he was buried in unless a shroud was used.

[Curryong]

I believe one of the major cinema chains in the UK announced a 'smoke-free' environment for its movie theatres in 1987. On my visits back home I haven't noticed people puffing away at all while at the movies, but whether it is completely banned in all cinemas or just that smoking has become socially unacceptable, I couldn't say.