Was Andrew Shaved?

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Sun May 15, 2005 9:46 am

This got me wandering. My last name is Horton. Wander if I am related to charles m. horton. I have realtives in Massachetts and Pennsylvannia. Time to do some geneology research.
Robin

quote="Harry @ Sat May 14, 2005 7:07 pm"]Tina-Kate, I've been wondering who he was as well.

Horton is mentioned by Porter in the Fall River Tragedy, page 29:

"It was known that Mr. Borden was talking to Mr. Charles M. Horton at 10:30 o'clock, as they were seen together by persons on the Chace Mill car that leaves City Hall for Bedford and Quarry streets at 10:30. The car was standing in front of the building. After leaving Mr. Horton, Mr. Borden walked up South Main street, stopping for a minute or two at this block and then going through Borden street to Second and to his home."

I wonder if Horton might be Clegg.

The direction Andrew took according to the above paragraph contradicts Shortsleeves and Mather who said Andrew was was headed toward Spring Street which was just a few doors away. Borden Street would have been in the opposite direction from Spring.[/quote]

Lenore · Post by **Lenore** » Tue Jun 07, 2005 2:37 am

I think it is clear that Andrew was shaved at the barber shop that morning as he was every morning except Sunday. As for the bowl of water, that was most likely for bathing. Since there was no running water on the second floor (because Andrew had it removed when he bought the house) he would have had no choice but to obtain bath water from the kitchen after “cleaning his teeth” or whatever he did, at the kitchen sink.

As for the time line, people today often forget it wasn’t all that easy to tell time in the 19th century. Most people did not have watches. A few men had pocket watches but some ran fast, some slow, and clocks in stores and shops were the same. The reason many old courthouses had clocks was because the only way some people had for telling time was by listening to the chimes of the courthouse clock. Factory whistles were another means of telling time because many workers did not have watches and some did not even own clocks. The early whistle was to awaken employees and there were a series of whistles thereafter to remind them of the time.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Jun 07, 2005 3:51 am

Well, if we had a source for Andrew being shaved "every morning except Sunday" we wouldn't be discussing this at length? Where do we know this from?

I understand about not having a watch. Good point. I don't have a watch. Though I'm pretty good at knowing what time it is- probably within a couple of minutes. Now, the date! That's another story altogether!

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Tue Jun 07, 2005 4:17 am

I was reading thru the posts, and really got it! Andrew really must have been miserly to have the upstairs water pipes removed. To go to all that trouble. You got to go get a bowl from the kitchen to clean yourself how awful. Maybe I am just used to having indoor plumbing.

Robin

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Jun 07, 2005 4:30 am

It ain't necessarily so.
Running water was not available when Andrew bought the house.
His room was a kitchen for the second floor tenant.
He removed the stove and possibly an icebox? I believe he stored the stove elsewhere. He made it his bedroom.
Once City water was available (1874?) he had it installed as soon as he could. He just didn't have it installed to the second floor. Maybe there were pumps needed to get the water upstairs and was expensive, who knows?

Lenore · Post by **Lenore** » Tue Jun 07, 2005 6:10 am

I'm not absolutely certain, but I believe municipal water became available in Fall River in 1869. Nevertheless, when Andrew purchased the two-family house at 92 2nd Street in 1871, there were hand-pumps providing water in both the upstairs and downstairs “sink” rooms. Even though it would have been much more convenient not to have to go downstairs to obtain water, Andrew, nevertheless, had the upstairs pump and pipes removed. In 1874, he had two faucets installed, but was too miserly to install one on the second floor. When the printing company occupied the building, the old second-floor sink, once serviced by a hand-pump, was still in the house.

It was common knowledge that Andrew Borden followed a daily routine which included a shave at Peter Ludec’s Barber Shop. Until the day he died, the barber told anyone who would listen about Andrew Borden’s morning shave at his barber shop. Barber shops, of course, weren’t open on Sunday, so it stands to reason Mr. Borden would not have been able to follow his usual routine that day.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Jun 07, 2005 7:23 pm

Ok but please can you tell me your sources?

As to common knowledge, the man Leduc should have made a statement, or testified and if he did - we don't know about it. Something under oath would have been nice, rather than newspaper reportage of "common knowledge"-

"The printing company" as you call it, was around the late 1940's so how can that apply to what was there in 1872?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Jun 07, 2005 7:27 pm

"The Proof is in the Pudding." Lizzie Borden Quarterly IV.3 (July 1997): 19.

"Reprints of the Fall River Water Department Records of 1874-1878, meter reading reports on the Borden house, and Borden and Almy's application for water, showing that, perhaps, Andrew was not quite the extreme miser he has been made out to be."

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Resources ... BQAuth.htm

So if you know of a pump on the second floor, was this well water?
Does a hand pump work that high up?
And I still would like to know how you know, please? Thanks.

If you have this LBQ issue, it describes the date which running city water became available to Second Street.

Tina-Kate · Post by **Tina-Kate** » Tue Jun 07, 2005 7:39 pm

Does anyone know Len Rebello's source for having put this on his timeline of Andrew's last morning? And how did we get the name LeDuc? If anyone has contact with LR (or even when in F/R in Aug) could you please ask him? Thanks!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Jun 07, 2005 8:02 pm

It was in the newspapers. Also there was a photo of him and a bit of a story in the FRHS Quarterly Report a while ago.
As to Len's source, good question. How exactly does he put it?

Tina-Kate · Post by **Tina-Kate** » Tue Jun 07, 2005 8:49 pm

Rebello -- "Appendix E *Andrew J. Borden's Last Walk in Life August 4, 1892* (Pages 565-567, with numbered map on pg 566) : [2] Peter Leduc reportedly shaved Andrew Borden the morning of August 4, 1892. The shop was located at 5 Main Street above Wood & Hall's (Fall River Daily Herald, August 4, 1892)". -- OK Kat, I guess I should *read* sometimes...

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Jun 07, 2005 9:27 pm

I really appreciate your reply. It was the "reportedly" which I was after- I thought he would write a qualifier.
Very good.
That's all I'm getting at with Lenore.
A qualifier, even Len uses them.
Thanks.

Lenore · Post by **Lenore** » Tue Jun 07, 2005 10:26 pm

Looks like you’ve gotten sources for everything except the hand-pump. There was an account published back in the early part of the 20th century in which a lady whose grandmother had once lived in the top flat of what later became the Borden House was interviewed. Because of the continuing interest in the murders, over the years, everyone who had even the remotest knowledge about the case was interviewed at one time or another–reporters needing something for the anniversary of the murders, etc. According to the lady interviewed, there was a cistern (tank) for water which leads me to believe the water for several houses in the vicinity may have been pumped by a windmill. (I have no “source” for the windmill, it is just a theory.) And yes, water can be pumped that high. After all, water is pumped from many feet beneath the surface of the earth. It might require a few extra pumps, but it is certainly possible. Hand-pumps on the second floors of buildings were not uncommon.

Apparently, the sink on the second floor remained in the house until recently. I know a lady and her husband who relocated from Fall River to Florida and their daughter worked at the printing company located in the Borden House. They were also friends of the owners and visited the house on numerous occasions. The information about the upstairs sink where the hand-pump had been came from them.

The same people said that at some point, a psychic claimed there was evidence of the murder hidden on the third floor of the building. (I have no source for this, only their word.) However, the owners would not allow outsiders in the building. Nevertheless, the owners and their friends (the people I know) made a thorough search of the attic but never found anything.

There are so many stories about the Lizzie Borden case, such as the one published many years’ ago in Yankee Magazine about Lizzie’s asking a man to get rid of a hatchet for her that it is difficult to differentiate between truth and fiction.

Lenore · Post by **Lenore** » Tue Jun 07, 2005 10:30 pm

Could someone tell me why some of my messages are posting twice when I only post them once?

beckygoddess · Post by **beckygoddess** » Tue Jun 07, 2005 11:00 pm

Lenore - I've never seen anything written about a pump on the second floor but that makes sense as there was a kitchen there (now a bedroom). I do recall reading somewhere about a water tank on the second floor....or was it an old empty one in the attic? Not motivated enough to look it up. And if there was a water tank, where did the water come from to fill it? If there was and AJB had the pump/pipes taken out when reconfiguring the "kitchen" to a bedroom, seems a poor choice and would indicate Abby didn't have much say in how he wanted to change the house when they first moved there in 1872. As a woman, I would have wanted access to water on the second floor!

Stefani · Post by **Stefani** » Tue Jun 07, 2005 11:42 pm

Lenore @ Tue Jun 07, 2005 10:30 pm wrote:Could someone tell me why some of my messages are posting twice when I only post them once?

This could happen if you press the submit button twice. Sometimes people think they have to hit it twice like they are opening an application. Just once will do it. Twice will create a double post.

Stefani · Post by **Stefani** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 12:12 am

beckygoddess @ Tue Jun 07, 2005 11:00 pm wrote: And if there was a water tank, where did the water come from to fill it? If there was and AJB had the pump/pipes taken out when reconfiguring the "kitchen" to a bedroom, seems a poor choice and would indicate Abby didn't have much say in how he wanted to change the house when they first moved there in 1872. As a woman, I would have wanted access to water on the second floor!

That's a lot of supposition packed into one paragraph. "If" there was a water tank, "if" ABJ had the pumps taken out, "if" ABJ also had the pipes removed, "if" Abby didn't have a say in how the house was changed.

My point about your post is that the assumptions you make about mean old Andrew don't go very far to further our investigation of the facts. I would like to see some facts that support each of ifs and then we can discuss the pump issue. Andrew keeps getting a bad rap---one I don't think he so soundly deserves.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 2:48 am

Don't know if it helps any, but, in the Trial document Volume 2, page 1139 Hilliard on the stand, there is a reference to a water tank that is in a closet in Bridget's attic room. I believe Kat also posted a picture of it not too long ago. It looked rather small, I believe it was supposed to be the size of a shoe box? Anyhoo:

Q. Very well: we will except that.
A. Mr. Fleet and Mr. Desmond was in what was Miss Bridget's room, searching, and I went in there after I got through this other room. We searched that room all through, the bed and the clothing that was there. We also searched the water tank that is in that room---what I term as in by the clothes press. From there we came out and went in---I went into a room on the south side of the attic---of the building. I was in there searching; Officer Seaver was there; Mr. Jennings was in there, Dr. Dolan. We searched that room, all of the trunks, we looked at the stove, the inside of the stove, in fact, we searched everything that was in that room.

Hmmm, there was a stove in the attic, was it the one from Andrew and Abby's room when it was a kitchen?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 4:00 am

I asked Bill Pavao about that stove from testimony and he was pretty convinced it was the one stored there from Andrew's bedroom when he converted it from a kitchen. I would guess that you made a good stab at that one, Susan!

There was a box-like water tank in Bridget's closet and it was about the size of a double breadbox- the kind where there's a shelf in it to make it taller rather than wider. It's wood. I did post a picture. It would be March a year ago "Trip" thread.
I was wondering if that was what this lady was describing to the member here.

Lenore · Post by **Lenore** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 10:13 am

Stefani, why are you defending Andrew Borden? He was miserly and it wasn’t just because he removed the water source from the second floor, there are numerous other things he did in which he showed little or no consideration for his wife and two daughters.

In addition to the hand-pump, sink room on the second floor, water tank, etc., what about the toilet in the basement? It, too, was apparently there when Borden purchased the house because there is no evidence of Andrew installing a toilet in 1874 when it is claimed he had “two faucets” installed.

I’m somewhat disturbed that some people here want a “source” for everything posted. Although I have several books on the case, the trial transcripts, old newspaper/magazine articles etc., I do not have all of them (there are way too many) here beside me when I post something. It doesn’t bother me if someone does not provide a source; if it is something I feel is significant, I will search for a source myself. Additionally, over the years, there have been thousands of articles written about the Lizzie Borden case in newspapers, magazines and private publications all over the US and not all the information in such articles have been included in the many Lizzie Borden books. For example, I have seen only the single article pertaining to the hand-pump, but I’m sure there must be others.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 1:36 pm

I’m somewhat disturbed that some people here want a “source” for everything posted. Although I have several books on the case, the trial transcripts, old newspaper/magazine articles etc., I do not have all of them (there are way too many) here beside me when I post something.

I am in support of posting/citing sources whenever possible. I believe that if we are to discuss 'facts' of the case, then we should know to the very best of our abilities, that they are indeed 'facts'. I understand that there are some things for which it will be a problem to cite a source, but I think we are obligated to do so, if we want to post information we say is fact.

I do keep a few books by me when I am posting. Rebello, Knowlton Papers, my printed transcript copies, the Primary Sources disk I purchased from Stefani, and a few other books as well. I may not use all of these all the time, but when I need to cite a source, or if I want to check out someone else's source...I am prepared. If you have something where a source needs to be cited and you don't have time to look it up at the moment, just state that and get it to us later, or don't post about it at all untill you have the source.

As Stefani mentioned, we are very interested in furthering our investigation of the facts. Sure there will be other information 'floating around' simply due to the length of time since the crime and human error in reporting at the time of the crime...but let's do what we can to make sure what we say is accurate whenever possible. Just because a story is out there ie; the McHenry-Trickey affair of October 10-12, 1892 (Rebello pgs. 163-167), as we all know...does not make it 'so'.

While many 'sources' are available for purchase (eBay, Amazon, Barnes & Noble, WalMart, etc.), Stefani and her crew have made many of them available through a free download. Here are a few links to sources for purchase/download:

http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/BordenBooks/index.htm

http://www.hatchetonline.com/HatchetOnline/index.htm (there is a subcriber's discount available)

http://www.hatchetonline.com/HatchetOnline/index.htm

Tracy...

Lenore · Post by **Lenore** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 2:14 pm

But if we all have the same sources, what is the point of citing everything? At the top of the website, the board is described as “a free society devoted to the serious discussion of the Borden murders . . . .” Instead, it is more like writing a doctoral thesis where everything must be cited. I can understand attempting to provide sources for obscure information, if available, but most of the “facts” concerning the Lizzie Borden case are already known to all of us.

For example, the toilet in the cellar. Although I cannot cite author, title and page number where I read it, we all know it was there. Does anyone know when it was installed?

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 2:54 pm

Lenore,

We don't all have the same sources. If we are to have a serious discussion of the case we must do what we can to make sure what we discuss is accurate. For instance, if all I had read on the case were Lincoln and Brown, how accurate of a picture of the case would I have ? By discussing those books here, which we have, other members can refer me through citing sources to more complete and accurate accounts.

All in all, I have no problem with taking the little bit of extra time in citing sources as often as I can. It gives others a source to check out if they wish, and if I have made an error...I would hope they would correct me. Also, when someone cites a source for example, something from the trial transcripts...it gives me a reason to check that source and sometimes I end up finding even more information...or another question to ask. I do not take the request to cite sources as a personal attack. I look at it as I would want the most possibly correct facts given to me, along with where I could recheck those facts...and I should be expected to do the same for others.

Tracy...

Lenore · Post by **Lenore** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 3:16 pm

I spend much of my time writing legal briefs in which everything must be documented, cited and explained. My desk is covered with law books so I do not have a lot of space for other things. I have no objection to citing a book or trial transcript, but page numbers??? So if Board rules require a citation for everything, then it’s not for me. I had assumed the Board was for discussion of the many claims/discrepancies surrounding the case and learning from the insight and input of others. Apparently, I was wrong.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 3:55 pm

Lenore,

I am not sure why it's a problem to take the few seconds to add the page numbers when citing a source...I mean if you are there already looking at it, I would think it would not be that stressful to just add it to the cite. Being in the line of work you are, you understand the importance of documentation...as you clearly state.

Relax Lenore. If your work has you too busy and stressed right now, maybe you should wait until you feel you have more time for the forum. You seem to be very stressed about it all. I realize that sometimes it can be a pain to look up/cite sources...but in the long run, for me anyway, it is worth it.

I hope you are willing to allow yourself some "ME" time everyday. Everyone needs some time each day that they set aside just for them. Even if it's just 15-20 minutes. During the school year I get up an hour early just to do email...have my coffee...be alone time things. I hate getting up that early, but if I don't...I rob myself of my "ME" time. As a teacher, I know how a job can overtake your life. I could be doing 'school stuff' 24/7...but I know if I don't take time for myself...I will be absolutely worthless at school.

I can tell you have a lot to offer as with all of your Borden knowledge/experience. Don't give up. Please find a way to allow yourself the "ME" time...there is a way to make it all work...honest. Please feel free to email me anytime. [email protected]

Tracy...

Lenore · Post by **Lenore** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 4:49 pm

Tracy, may I suggest you expend your energies discussing topics pertaining to Lizzie Borden and refrain from wasting so much time judging and criticizing others?

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 5:29 pm

I would like to most sincerely apologize to Lenore and anyone else for any misunderstandings which have occurred regarding my recent comments(posts) about citing sources, relaxing, taking time for one's self, or anthing else which may have come across as offensive and/or critical. I am very sorry.

Tracy...

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 7:02 pm

Well, you shouldn't have to take the brunt of any displeasue about standards we try to uphold here.
Anyone can be asked to cite a source at any time- but not capriously, hopefully. Meaning, it's not to become a punishment. (Which has happened to me, BTW)

Usually when there are new members it takes a bit of adjustment at both ends- but I do see some people get a bit miffed over sources. I don't know why.
If they read the archives before posting, they should be familiar with our requirements.
I think what might happen sometimes is that while they are lurking reading us, they are getting to know us, and when they first post they feel like we know them but we don't.
So usually I like to promote an Introduction phase and getting to meet someone first, just like in a social setting- but just starting talking can be somewhat confusing at first.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 9:37 pm

Kat @ Wed Jun 08, 2005 2:00 am wrote:I asked Bill Pavao about that stove from testimony and he was pretty convinced it was the one stored there from Andrew's bedroom when he converted it from a kitchen. I would guess that you made a good stab at that one, Susan!

There was a box-like water tank in Bridget's closet and it was about the size of a double breadbox- the kind where there's a shelf in it to make it taller rather than wider. It's wood. I did post a picture. It would be March a year ago "Trip" thread.
I was wondering if that was what this lady was describing to the member here.

Thanks, Kat. How odd to store the stove in the attic, why not put it in the barn or sell it or something. I'm thinking that thing was cast iron and must have weighed a ton and to carry it up more stairs just to let it sit and gather dust. Unless Andrew had the idea that one day he might move and remake the house into two flats and want the stove close at hand.

Hmm, went on a search in the archives and couldn't find your trip pictures, would like to see the water tank pic again.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 1:39 am

Well, figure up one stairway, rather than down 2. (Counting the side steps).

I couldn't find it either. Here it is. I left in Bill's hands and the back of my head (the old me) for perspective.
This is in Bridget's closet.

Haulover · Post by **Haulover** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 9:15 am

i don't recall seeing that photograph. i'm seeing it in artistic terms. it has a great ambiguity about it. what does one think if you know nothing of what it is about? is that a living head or just hair? visually you can see the arm as belonging to the head--but then it's a left arm. even the little triangle in the upper left is a nice detail. you can see it's a closet -- but what in the world is going on? (Cousin It and Thing meet in the closet?)

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 5:11 pm

Oh thanks a lot Eugene. You must have been watching scary movies lately.

You can also deduce that the nail had come out of the wall just as we moved some costumes aside to get a better view of the tank. Basically Stef snapped the picture as the clothes rod was coming down!

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 7:52 pm

Thanks, Kat. Wow, I saw the big hole in the wall and that you were holding the clothes rod, but, didn't put 2 and 2 together. So, is it known for sure if that tank was there in the Borden's day? That float mechanism looks current and looks like the float you would find in a toilet tank. The float leads me to believe as water is used, the float goes down and more water fills in the tank. Could it be possible that that was a later addition and thats what it was; and old high flush toilet tank? Any evidence that there was some sort of hole in the floor for the waste pipe? How odd.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 8:19 pm

Don't know if it helps any, but, in the Trial document Volume 2, page 1139 Hilliard on the stand, there is a reference to a water tank that is in a closet in Bridget's attic room. I believe Kat also posted a picture of it not too long ago. It looked rather small, I believe it was supposed to be the size of a shoe box? Anyhoo:

Q. Very well: we will except that.
A. Mr. Fleet and Mr. Desmond was in what was Miss Bridget's room, searching, and I went in there after I got through this other room. We searched that room all through, the bed and the clothing that was there. We also searched the water tank that is in that room---what I term as in by the clothes press. From there we came out and went in---I went into a room on the south side of the attic---of the building. I was in there searching; Officer Seaver was there; Mr. Jennings was in there, Dr. Dolan. We searched that room, all of the trunks, we looked at the stove, the inside of the stove, in fact, we searched everything that was in that room.

Well, you called it Susan (above quote), and Bill had backed that up last March, so I'm pretty confident it is what it is. I recall there was no top and it was lined with metal. I could stck my hand in and feel around, but only as high as I could reach. (I brought a flashlite and measuring tape but no stepladder!

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 8:24 pm

Thanks, Kat. So, did it look as though there were pipes coming out of it somewhere that perhaps lead downstairs. Or was there any sort of hole where a pipe once was attached? It is so intriguing!

Tina-Kate · Post by **Tina-Kate** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 8:30 pm

Trial, page 1139 -- Hilliard (being cross examined by Robinson): "Mr. Fleet and Mr. Desmond was in what was Miss Bridget's room searching...We also searched the water tank that is in that room--what I term is a clothes press."

john · Post by **john** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 10:46 pm

The bowl sounds like B.S. to me. If I were going up a stairs with water I would use a pitcher so as not to spill, and a pitcher would have been empty in Mr. Borden's room if he needed a bowlfull, and the bowl must have belonged there too.
Did the autopsy mention whether he was shaved or not? It seems shaving that day would only be important to the guy who was trying to sell the gold andrew mug.
To imply that Andrew could clean up after killing Abby with a bowl of water is superflous. What would he do with the water - throw it out the window? What if someone saw him doing that? It takes a lot of water to wash off blood - a bowl would just be starters.
Stories abound.
I think Andrew may have picked up the lock just because workmen don't throw away their junk. The story about Andrew's safe taking two days to break into is bunko. I could get into a vault in about two hours and a safe would take half an hour if i couldn't obscound it or better drill it. So could any locksmith which they must have consulted.
So Andrew killing Abby seems unlikely, although he may have been the one who had her killed because he was the man with the money, and then got in too deep and got killed himself. Lizzie could have left the house during their money negotiations about it, and that was why the killer hung around - to get the money. So Lizzie comes back, knowing the deal, and finds Andrew dead - shock city! It has to be remembered that if Lizzie supposedly hired some to kill kill anyone, she had very little disposable income - like a couple hundred bucks would be all, and to say to a killer, "well I'll give you $ 20,000 in a year or so," doesn't jibe with crooks.
I would have no idea why Andrew would have wanted Abby dead - she sounded pretty nice to me, but strange things happen.
Could just be that old axiom, he who lives by the bow will die by the arrow.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 11:39 pm

You know, the bowl does sound awkward. I hadn't thought of that. He would use a pitcher. Maybe his pitcher didn't fit under the kitchen sink fawcet? As in maybe that sink wasn't deep enough for it to fit but a shallow bowl would?

I guess I will get out the info as to how long the safe took to open. I think it's in the Witness Statements under Harrington?

As to a hired hit, wouldn't the person strip Andrew's pockets in case he wasn't paid right away? I think he would. Andrew had a lot of money on him.

Something I took note of in reading Emma's will today:

"TWELFTH: I give and bequeath all the rest and residue of the property, real and personal, over which I have any power of testamentary disposition at the time of my decease, to said B.M.C. Durfee Safe Deposit and Trust Company of Fall River, Massachusetts, and to said Preston H. Gardner of Providence, Rhode Island, hereinafter called my said trustees, IN TRUST, nevertheless, to invest the same and keep the same invested, and to collect all of the income thereof, and after paying from such income all expenses of administering this trust properly chargeable to income, to pay from the net income (in quarterly payments) the annual sum of Two Hundred Dollars ($200) to my cousin, Joseph Luther Morse, if and so long as he shall survive me and divide the remaining or net income (as the same is hereinafter defined) into five (5) equal shares, and to pay the same over bi-annually, or oftener as in the discretion of my said trustees they may deem best, in the manner and for the purposes hereinafter set forth."

--I haven't quite figured out why she would split the share 5 ways and then bring it back together 2x a year...but still why single him out? Did he do something for her? The context is that the Gardners were singled out and then so is this Morse- as relatives- and Lizzie was accounted for as well.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 11:53 pm

Witness Statements
Pg. 15
"Thursday 11, 1892."
...
"He left Boston for home at 8.30 A. M. I went again to Police Headquarters, and with a detective went to the Diebold (?) Safe Co. No. 72 Sudbury street. From there a mechanic accompanied me home. At 3.15 P. M. in company with A. J. Jennings went to open the safe. I remained there until relieved by the District Attorney at about 5. P. M."
____

"Friday 12, 1892. Harrington. At the Borden house all forenoon assisting on the safe."

--Note- This is the following week.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Jun 10, 2005 3:45 am

I made a big mistake on Emma's will. (I was a bit distracted- sorry).

In Rebello, there is a gap with a profile of Joseph Morse and then the will takes up again. It's situated so that the specifications of the 5 shares comes after it. They do not pertain to Joseph. So he is only getting this total $200 yearly annuity, quarterly.

It should read:
"... Joseph Luther Morse, if and so long as he shall survive me and divide the remaining or net income (as the same is hereinafter defined) into five (5) equal shares, and to pay the same over bi-annually, or oftener as in the discretion of my said trustees they may deem best, in the manner and for the purposes hereinafter set forth.

(a) To pay one of such equal shares to the Trustees of the Fall River High School Alumni Scholarships to be used and applied by said last mentioned trustees in the following manner: Such share shall be used to establish and to provide for "The Andrew J. Borden Scholarships" each scholarship to be of such amount not exceeding the sum of Three Hundred Dollars ($300) per annum as said trustees shall determine; and 1 direct that such scholarships shall be awarded and given annually by said trustees one-half in aggregate amount thereof to such deserving male graduate or graduates and the other one-half thereof to such deserving female graduate or graduates of the High Schools of Fall River as they, in their discretion, shall select, such scholarship to be used to assist such graduates to secure advanced education. In the selection and appointment of such scholarships it is my desire (as printed on will) that preference shall be given to any graduate who may be named by Miss Julia A. Reed of said Fall River, or by said Orrin A. Gardner of said Touisset, during the lifetime of either of them."
etc. thru b,c,d,e.

There goes Emma's payoff to her cousin!

john · Post by **john** » Fri Jun 10, 2005 3:53 am

You are so very nice Kat!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Jun 17, 2005 5:07 am

You know, I am thinking about that postmortem picture of the examination of Andrew's body- I was looking at it colorized- and he has a beard! And it's scraggly, around his neck and ear. It doesn't look like he's shaved or been shaved in a couple of days.

john · Post by **john** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 6:26 pm

Nice and wise.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 1:26 am

Thanks.

Lookyou guys at Andrew's jawline and neck.
Then some guy here can say how long it takes to get like that.

http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Crime ... Borden.htm

john · Post by **john** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 5:55 am

Hi Lenore.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 6:21 pm

Did anybody go look?
Does it look like he was shaved?
If he's got a beard and its scraggly, he only needs his upper lip and maybe a bit of cheekbone shaved. Why would he pay for that in the middle of the week? A Thursday.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 6:58 pm

I've looked, several times even, but of course I am no expert in having a beard. It looks a little 'scruffy' to me, but I don't know if the is the quality of the photo, or if it is dried blood or what.

Tracy...

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 7:42 pm

Hmmm, I thought that I posted to your original question on Friday, Kat, but, I guess I didn't hit the submit button? Anyway, I had checked out the post mortem photo of Andrew and thought that maybe it was a good question for the guys, is it easy to shave off your mustache and your throat and keep a clean line for your beard? Or, easier to have someone do it for you? Because if Andrew was shaved, he didn't have all that much shaved off of his face. But, trying to use one of those straight razors, brrrrr, I get chills just thinking about it! My legs would probably end up looking something like the back of Abby's head!

Tina-Kate · Post by **Tina-Kate** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 8:19 pm

Hard to tell of anything in all that mess. However, the bottom of his beard does look quite evenly trimmed, in spite of the length. You can esp see this in the photo that shows the opened body. Also, if he had just a beard but no moustache (like Morse), he might have had his upper lip shaved...altho you can't tell that at all from the photos.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 12:09 am

Oh I thought it looked scraggly.
Thanks for checking you girls.

Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Was Andrew Shaved?

was andrew shaved

andrew being shaved?