Rebello's Silver Cup -- Half Empty or Full of It?

Edisto · Post by **Edisto** » Fri Jun 17, 2005 10:31 am

I've tried to check the archives to see if anyone else has wondered about this. I was able to find only passing references to the item.

Page 12 of Len Rebello's "Lizzie Borden/Past & Present" has a picture of an antique drinking cup. There's no caption under the picture, which puzzled me when I first got the book. Then I discovered the explanatory material is to be found on page 10. It states: "Abby Borden, Lizzie's stepmother, presented eight year old Lizzie with a silver plated drinking cup (4" high with a 3" circumference decorated and adorned with raised grape vines at the base of the cup). Engraved on the cup--
Lizzie from Abbie
1868
Source: Private Collection (see photograph, page 12)"

The photograph shows a rather plain drinking cup, which does appear to be antique. It consists of a cylindrical cup for holding liquid, surmounting a base similar to that of some candlesticks. The large, oval-shaped handle is almost as long as the cup itself (excepting the base) and has on its top a protuberance probably designed for the drinker's thumb to rest against.

As I read the description, something "jumped out" at me. The measurements given seemed peculiar. I cut a strip of paper four inches wide and made a tube the supposed dimensions of the cup. A tube having a 3-inch CIRCUMFERENCE (as opposed to diameter) is a very small tube indeed and wouldn't hold much liquid. Sitting on a base, it would be a terribly easy thing for a child to knock over, too. My next thought was that the description was meant to say that the cup's DIAMETER was three inches. I cut another four-inch-wide strip and made a second tube -- this one having a diameter of three inches. Somewhat better. A cup this size would probably hold more than a measuring cup of liquid. However, sitting on its base, it would have a "squatty" appearance that wouldn't match the pictures.

Of course, there's something a bit odd about the inscription too. I have usually seen Abby Borden's name spelled "Abby." There is some variation, however. I've even seen it spelled "Abbey" a few times. Did Abby Borden herself prefer the "Abbie" spelling?

I'm also puzzled about the raised grape decoration. It would usually signify "wine." But I thought the Bordens were teetotalers! Surely one wouldn't give a wine cup to a child of eight! Could it be a communion cup?Communion cups are usually very small -- possibly even smaller than a tube 3" in circumference. But would a child of eight be given her own communion cup?

We don't, of course, know the exact date the cup was given to Lizzie. Could it have had some religious significance? I noted that Abby and Andrew were married by a Baptist minister. I thought Andrew had some background in the Quaker faith, and Rebello says the family had attended a different Congregational Church before Lizzie joined Central Congregational in 1885. At the Inquest, Lizzie said she was "so christened." If that's so, I wonder in what church she was christened. I was raised (mostly) in the Baptist faith, and Baptists don't christen infants. Most of the mainstream Protestant denominations do christen, however.

I did check eBay and a few other sites, looking for silver cups somewhat similar to this one. It seems very unlike most of the antique baby and child cups I saw.

All of this set me wondering if the "Abbie" and "Lizzie" of the inscription were actually Abby and Lizzie Borden. Anybody have any more information or thoughts on this? It would be nice if Rebello had given us a little more information, assuming he had it. Obviously, I need to do more research myself...

diana · Post by **diana** » Fri Jun 17, 2005 1:34 pm

I'm pretty sure we've had some discussions about this cup, but I couldn't find them in a cursory search. I'll keep looking though. Meanwhile here's a three year old archival link that suggests Emma may have had a silver cup, too. (Although no mention of Abby/Abbie gifting this one.)

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Archive06 ... BSScup.htm

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Fri Jun 17, 2005 6:21 pm

I don't think it is really "our" Abby & Lizzie regarding the silver cup. Abby never spelled her name "Abbie".

I discussed this with an expert, and that person said that they do not think it is, either. One tip-off was that it was an expensive item and that mis-spelling would not have happened on something like that.

Edisto · Post by **Edisto** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 1:07 pm

I had the same feeling about the cup -- that I'd seen an earlier discussion about it -- but I couldn't find any evidence.

For the sake of argument, how do we know Abby never spelled her name "Abbie"? Also, was the expert who was consulted an expert on silver or on the Borden case? The cup is silver-plated, which would probably have been relatively inexpensive in 1868. With regard to misspellings never occurring on items like this, I beg to disagree. When my daughter was born, we named her after my maternal grandfather, whose first name was Bonnie. (I figured nobody in the family was likely to name a boy after him!) He wanted to give her a memento, so my mother ordered a silver cup to be engraved with my grandfather's name and my daughter's. Mother, ever the bargain-hunter, decided to have one of her cousins do the engraving for free. When we got the cup, the very lovely inscription read, "To Bonnie Caroline Pate from her Great-Grandfarther, Bonnie Almond Rich." She still has the cup. (As to why my Grandfather's middle name was "Almond," my Mother said it was because he was some sort of nut. It was her middle name too.)

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 1:52 pm

diana @ Fri Jun 17, 2005 2:34 pm wrote:I'm pretty sure we've had some discussions about this cup, but I couldn't find them in a cursory search. I'll keep looking though. Meanwhile here's a three year old archival link that suggests Emma may have had a silver cup, too. (Although no mention of Abby/Abbie gifting this one.)

I remember a cup that was alleged to have been Emmas and saved the photos. Don't know if its the same one, as so many alleged Borden items have come and gone.

Mr. Rebello has been kind enough to allow Kat and myself to post photos from his book to the forum. Here's the cup referred to by Edisto.

Would Andrew have paid for a misnamed cup? Would Abby? They probably negotiated the price downward - a lot!

FairhavenGuy · Post by **FairhavenGuy** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 2:15 pm

It's a shame that Rebello, in this case, chose to simply attribute this to a "private collection" without adding any other details as to its provenance. Knowing where and how the collector came to own the cup and connect it with Lizzie and Abby would make all the difference.

Rebello states it as a fact that Abby gave an engraved silver cup to eight year old Lizzie, but doesn't cite a source for that claim.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 6:14 pm

Anyone can ask him. He's very approachable.
It might be another story unto itself.

Edisto · Post by **Edisto** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 2:04 pm

Well, okay, as soon as I see him sauntering down Barger Drive (where I live), I'll ask him. Actually, I'd hate to put him on the spot, because I doubt that he has any other info that he can share. I did notice that he "assumed" Alice Russell's middle initial stood for "Manley," because that was her mother's maiden name. Possibly he also assumed the cup was a gift from Abby to Lizzie (Borden).

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 7:46 pm

The expert I approached about the cup was kind of both - knew the Borden case well enough and did know his antiques.

I had never seen "Abby" spelled "Abbie" anywhere in all the years I've been studying this case. I have seen originals of her signature, which required her legal name and, again, it was "Abby". Has anyone here seen it spelled "Abbie"?

That's true - if Mr. Rebello could be a little clearer with his source it might help us to understand where the cup came from. But then sometimes you can't give your source, for one reason or another.

We have some silver cups that are engraved from different years, different artists. Nobody mis-spelled anything.

If the cup is from "our" Lizzie (and it's pretty much known that she really cared for Abby when Lizzie was a child), where would Lizzie have gotten the money? Would Andrew or Lizzie have let the engraver get away with the mis-spelling? Just a gut feeling, but I don't think so. Only my opinion. I certainly don't know .

I do think that was a reasonable assumption for Mr. R. to think Alice Russell's middle name was "Manley", after her mother's maiden name. So many women's middle names came from the same source.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 4:14 am

I recall we had seen it spelled "Abbie" before, but not recently.
What signatures have you seen?
I'm trying to find out more but I don't know that the cup's provenance will ever be explained here.
I was told today that it is an authentic source- but that's without speaking to Len as yet.

(Isn't it spelled "Abbie" under her wedding picture- Porter calls her Abbie, pg 22.)

stuartwsa · Post by **stuartwsa** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 8:48 am

Doesn't Porter spell her name "Abbie" throughout "Fall River Tragedy"? (Sorry, I don't have my copy handy to check.)

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 10:08 am

stuartwsa @ Fri Jun 24, 2005 8:48 am wrote:Doesn't Porter spell her name "Abbie" throughout "Fall River Tragedy"? (Sorry, I don't have my copy handy to check.)

You're right stuartwsa. In Porter it's spelled Abbie all the way through.

Edisto · Post by **Edisto** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 11:04 am

Porter does indeed seem to spell her ame "Abbie," although I can't vouch for its being spelled that way throughout. For the sake of consistency, I would think that's probably so. However, Porter didn't write "Lizzie Borden/Past & Present." Len Rebello, the author of that useful tome, seems to use the spelling "Abby" fairly consistently in his book; at least he seems to use it in most of the instances where he isn't quoting someone else. It would have been nice if he had explained why the silver cup has it spelled "Abbie" if indeed it was a gift from Abby/Abbie to Lizzie (Borden) and if the owner has a provenance. Maybe he can't explain it, in which case he could have told us that. Possibly the donor of the cup thought "Abbie" was a more formal spelling of her name than "Abby," and thus considered it more appropriate for an engraved item. Of course, "Abby" or "Abbie" is usually a nickname for "Abigail," so neither version is very formal, IMHO. (I say that even though I have a young relative named Abbie, and her name isn't Abigail either. For that matter, my own name is a diminutive or nickname!)

I am assuming that the cup was a gift TO Lizzie FROM Abby. Does someone here think the reverse was true? That might certainly explain the misspelling, since an eight-year-old might be more creative than an adult; however, the inscription seems clear to me. If the dimensions given by Rebello are correct, it would be too small for an adult's use, unless perhaps that adult took her whiskey neat! I guess if I'd been married to Andrew Borden and had to put up with his daughters, I might have wanted a shot glass at the ready.

I find it difficult to read in photographs the inscriptions on the large Borden monument at Oak Grove; however, I believe Mrs. Borden's name is spelled "Abby" thereon. Since the daughters were responsible for having this erected, I fancy they would have used Abby's preferred spelling. (I do note, however, that Lizzie's own middle name is misspelled. In that case, she wasn't around any longer to assure that it was correct. -- Or maybe she intended it to be misspelled.)

Another thought: Emma testified that Lizzie had called Abby "Mother" up until the time of the disagreement about real estate. That means she was probably in the habit of calling Abby "Mother" in 1868. So why wouldn't the inscription have read: "Lizzie from Mother"?

Most of contemporary newspaper accounts refer to Abby as "Mrs. A. J. Borden," or simply "Mrs. Borden." I've found a few cases in which her first name is spelled "Abbie," however. I'm simply wondering why this supposedly intimate family gift would have a spelling that doesn't seem to be Mrs. Borden's favored one.

diana · Post by **diana** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 12:46 pm

Thanks, you guys, for leading the way to Porter -- I was going nuts here trying to remember where I'd seen 'Abbie' spelled that way before. I knew it was from what I considered a reasonably credible source. (I tend to give Porter more credit than I do to most authors simply because of his proximity in time to the case.)

Isn't it odd that Porter uses the 'Abbie' spelling except for passages from the trial? They, of course, have Mrs. Borden as 'Abby'. What's the deal with that? Did he feel he had it right -- and the stenographers were wrong?

Nancie · Post by **Nancie** » Sun Jun 26, 2005 4:44 pm

It could be a simple explanation, for example since
the 4th grade I am Nancie, but when I moved back
to New Jersey 5 yrs. ago they insisted I be Nancy to match my birth certificate. So I am Nancy from New Joisey but everyone knows I am Nancie.

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 4:51 pm

Sorry, I got it backwards. It is to Lizzie from "Abbie".

It's interesting that Porter spells it "Abbie". I wonder why. He was right there and in the thick of things after the crime.

I don't think her first name was really "Abigail". I think it was just "Abby".
I saw her signature at the Taunton courthouse - or building - that holds deeds and probate records. She signed "Abby D. Borden". It was really a thrill to be handed documents that had her and Andrew's signatures on them.

It looked like she signed in gold ink. Maybe it had originally been brown, and it turned lighter over the years (?).

No offense to Mr. Rebello at all - I think his book is the best Borden book that will probably ever be done, and he is a really nice man. I think he believes or knows it is "our" Lizzie and Abby. I think if he says it, there must be something to it. But I vote "no" on the cup.

There were a lot of people with those names back then.

One time I was searching for something, and this listing came up that this library had a box full of letters from "Lizzie" and "Emma". I thought, well this must be them - how coincidental would that be?

I contacted the library, and I was surprised that they were not "our" sisters at all.

john · Post by **john** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 9:41 am

Free iced tea, a trip to Hawaii for three, and a duckboat at the "Could All The World Have Known This Was Coming Down" site, plus you can have your picture taken with "Toonces," The Cat Who Could Drive.

Edisto · Post by **Edisto** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 1:42 pm

Aha! So at least one of us has seen a document actually signed by Abby Borden and using that spelling. How likely is it that Abby herself would have had a cup engraved with a spelling other than the one she preferred and used on formal documents?

What first made me suspicious of that cup is the claim that it has only a three-inch circumference. I'm told that's the correct measurement and not a misstatement. I've found several similar cups on eBay, but none of them had such a tiny circumference. I've calculated that a cup that size would hold only a couple of tablespoons of liquid. I can't help wondering how such a long line of engraving would fit on such a tiny surface. I guess the engraving is very, very small.

I'm still very dubious about the item too.

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 8:39 am

Excellent point, Edisto, when you say why doesn't the cup say "from Mother". That's right - it was only 1868. Lizzie would have been calling her Mother at that time.

I wonder if there are any marks identifying the maker on the bottom.