Andrew wasn't dead!

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JessieHardy
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Andrew wasn't dead!

Post by JessieHardy »

:wink:

Hello, I am new to the list and a definite Lizzie-did-it, and a possible Bowden-helped-her.

I was reading Bridget's witness statement. She says she was only in her room for a couple of minutes when Lizzie called her down and sent her for a doctor.

What if Andrew wasn't dead at this time? Did Bridget actually get a look at him, before she ran off? Lizzie had been trying to get Bridget out of the house all morning. Wouldn't this be a great time to kill Andrew, when Bridget is off looking for a doctor? Remember Bridget was gone for a couple of minutes at least. When Bowen wasn't home she had to find someone else.

I always wonder why Lizzie didn't say Get the police, father's dead. What did she think a doctor could do?

What I think is that she didn't really intend to kill her father. She thought that she would whack him a few times, then the doctor could patch him up.
She wouldn't have known how bad Andrew's wounds would be, if she sent Bridget for the doctor before he was dead.

Everyone who looked at Andrew remarked on how fresh his wounds were.

Jessie
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Allen
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Re: Andrew wasn't dead!

Post by Allen »

JessieHardy @ Tue Jun 28, 2005 9:45 am wrote::wink:

Hello, I am new to the list and a definite Lizzie-did-it, and a possible Bowden-helped-her.

I was reading Bridget's witness statement. She says she was only in her room for a couple of minutes when Lizzie called her down and sent her for a doctor.

What if Andrew wasn't dead at this time? Did Bridget actually get a look at him, before she ran off? Lizzie had been trying to get Bridget out of the house all morning. Wouldn't this be a great time to kill Andrew, when Bridget is off looking for a doctor? Remember Bridget was gone for a couple of minutes at least. When Bowen wasn't home she had to find someone else.

I always wonder why Lizzie didn't say Get the police, father's dead. What did she think a doctor could do?

What I think is that she didn't really intend to kill her father. She thought that she would whack him a few times, then the doctor could patch him up.
She wouldn't have known how bad Andrew's wounds would be, if she sent Bridget for the doctor before he was dead.

Everyone who looked at Andrew remarked on how fresh his wounds were.

Jessie
That is something I had never thought about before. I will have to read over the testimony to make sure of a couple of facts. There is no evidence to say that Andrew was already dead when she called Bridget down. How long was Bridget gone, and how long until Mrs. Churchill arrive home and saw Lizzie in the doorway? Because you have to factor in time for clean up and time to dispose of the axe. Interesting questions to check into.
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what if andrew wasnt dead

Post by snokkums »

:idea: I never thought of it like that either. Maybe Andrew was still alive when bridget left? Thats a different sceniro. :!: :!:
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Post by Liz Crouthers »

Hey that could work, I can't believe I didn't think of that.
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Post by augusta »

Really interesting post, Jessie. I think Dr. Bowen was not totally innocent myself. There was that trip he made to the very same house Morse was visiting. And the phone call he made there, too. And the scrap of paper that said "Emma" on it that was being burned in the kitchen stove and when asked what it was by a policeman, Bowen said, "It is nothing...."

Interesting theory that Lizzie may only have wanted to bash in a few of Andrew's brains and not kill him. But I do think 11 blows is a bit much for a "wounding".

It's not entirely clear how long Bridget was upstairs. She could have dozed off. And back then, all the clocks in FR weren't that synchronized like they are now. If you read thru the testimonies, you'll run into someone saying, oh, my clock was off ... mine was, too ... I think that could be a big problem in reconstructing the timing of everything that morning - especially Andrew's murder.

Bridget tried to go see Andrew's body on the sofa, but Lizzie blocked her path and/or told her not to go in there. Strange that Lizzie would have the ability to think of her sensitivity at that moment. I think that the killer was in there just then, and would make his escape after Bridget left.

Andrew was found in a peaceful, reclining position. I don't think Lizzie and/or a killer was holding him at bay until Bridget left (I know you didn't say that, but that's what I'm picturing). I don't think Andrew would have sat there while Lizzie yelled, "Bridget - come here! Father is dead!" unless someone were restraining him, and there is no evidence of that.

I think those 11 wounds were all delivered when Lizzie yelled for Bridget. I think the killer went out the front door. And that is why Lizzie could lollygag around that screen door looking shaken (she probably was very upset - even if she knew Andrew was to be killed, the sight of it probably knocked her for a loop). She did not expect Mrs. Churchill to pop up, but when she did Lizzie didn't hesitate to ask her over. The coast was by then clear.

It is incredible that Lizzie called for a doctor. "Father is dead," she said. And when Bowen wasn't at home, she didn't try for Dr. Kelly or Chagnon, who also lived nearby. "Then go get Miss Russell." Why??? I think if we can answer that question, we will have filled in a healthy part of this mystery. Go get Bowen. Okay, then go get Miss Russell. ... Why???

The only thing I can think of is she had told Alice all that stuff the night before. And Alice she thought would support her that "they" came in and killed A & A.

I could understand it if she said go get Dr. Bowen AND a policeman. Hmm...

Yeah, those wounds were fresh. They were still dripping when the first people came in. And as we now know, dripping right thru the floorboards to the basement ceiling.

:sunny: Geez, you got me all excited about that post and my manners flew out the window. Welcome, Jessie!
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Post by Nancie »

Hi Jessie, interesting post! My thought is that how
could Lizzie ever face her father again and live with
him after "bashing him just a little"? I just can't see
that.
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Post by Allen »

Doctor Bowen does seem to have acted a little oddly, I think he at least suspected Lizzie had a hand in what happened. I'm not really sure if I believe he had a direct role in what happened, but I wouldn't say I think it's out of the realm of possibility. I'm not sure how to interpret this little snippet I found in Robello.

Rebello page 180:

" Dr. Bowen of Fall River is reported to have said to a reporter who started to interview him yesterday:' I am not surprised at the verdict and if you say any more then I'll make it hot for you.' The doctor appears to be very much on his dignity just now," Taunton Daily Gazette, Saturday, December 3, 1892:4.
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Post by Susan »

Hi Jessie, welcome to the Forum. Wow, between your post and Augusta's I had a creepy vision of Andrew still being alive when Bridget was called down. And once Bridget was out of the house, Lizzie's hired killer did their thing. But, what if Bridget did come back with Dr. Bowen right then and there, could or would the killer have been apprehended? I don't think Lizzie could have taken that chance unless she knew Dr. Bowen wouldn't be in when she sent Bridget over to fetch him. :roll:
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Post by Audrey »

I don't think she would have called Mrs Churchill over... If her intention was to rid the house of witnesses by sending Bridget off-- she did the exact opposite by calling Addie over..
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Post by Harry »

Hi Jessie, welcome to the forum.

Actually there was very little time between when Bridget returned from Dr. Bowens and when Mrs. Churchill saw Lizzie at the screen door and went over.

In between Addie spotting Bridget on the street and Addie spotting Lizzie at the door, Bridget had returned and was sent out again for Alice Russell.

From Addie's inquest testimony, p127:

"Q. What was the first thing to which your attention was attracted?
I was coming down Second street, I had been to Hudner’s market. I got about half way between Mrs. Burts house and mine, and I saw Bridget going from Dr. Bowen’s door over to the Borden House, running, and she looked as if she was scared.
......
Page 128

Q. What was the first thing you did?
A. I went into the house, stepped through to the kitchen, laid my parcels on a bench which runs right across one of the south windows that looks into Mr. Borden’s back yard. At the screen door, standing by the screen door I saw Lizzie as if she was in great distress.
Q. How did she show that?
A. Perhaps she rubbed her head. I knew something was wrong, of course, by the appearance. I opened one of the south windows, one had a screen in and the other did not, I says “what is the matter Lizzie?” She said “O, Mrs. Churchill, do come over, somebody has killed Father.” I went right through the house and went out the front door and went over. When I got there she sat on the second stair which is right at the right of the screen door as you come in, the back stairs."

Then Addie went to find her handyman for him to locate a doctor and returned to the house. She went to Hall's stable which was just across the street. Then she testifies to Dr. Bowen arriving shortly thereafter.

I don't think Lizzie had much time to herself after sending Brdiget out the first time.
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Post by Kat »

We are trying to figure out on another thread whether Bowen was at the Emery's or if he phoned there. We don't know that he did either- but if he phoned there rather than going there he had time for that. So if there's any proof- please send it our way. I have a call out for a response on-going :smile: I believe Andrew had 10 wounds. I agree that cutting his face to pieces seems excessive.

[Here is what Bowen said according to Harrington.
Harrington, page 6, Witness Statements about that piece of paper:
"He [Bowen] said 'it is nothing, it is something about, I think, my daughter going through somewhere.' If I recollect correctly, it was addressed to Emma; but about that I am not sure. The Doctor then said 'it does not amount to anything', and taking the lid off the kitchen stove, he dropped the pieces in. There was very little fire in the stove, and the ashes which were on top looked as though paper had been burned there."]

--Notice how none of the females ask for a cop?
Not Lizzie, not Bridget, not Mrs. Churchill.
This is what Bowen said he first heard:
Inquest
A. I drove up to my house, and my wife came to the door, and made a motion, and says “they want you quick over to Mr. Borden’s.” The same time I think Thomas Bowles, a man that works across the street told me, at the same time, I dont know which was first. I thought probably they were worse, so I went right over quick.
Q. When you got there who did you find?
A. I found Miss Lizzie.
Q. Anybodyelse?
A. Bridget.
Q. You were the first outsider then to get there?
A. So far as I know.
Q. Mrs. Churchill had not then got there?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did Miss Lizzie speak to you?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Tell exactly what happened now.
A. I went to the door, and I met them in the hall, I went in the side door, I thought I would get in there quicker, I was so much in a hurry I happened to go that way. I met Miss Lizzie in the hall, and Bridget. I says “Lizzie what is the matter?” I spoke pretty quick. I says “what is the matter Lizzie?” She said she was afraid her father had been stabbed or hurt. I think the word stabbed was used.

--Certain Witness Statement characters claim there was someone hurt, or a stabbing, or "something happened." Pages 43+ (also shows the times aren't all synced).

"L. L. Hall, 83 Second street, says that Mrs. Churchill came to his stable after a man that works for her to go after a doctor for Mr. Borden, who had been badly hurt. Mr. Hall says it was then 10.30. He is positive of this, for he looked at his watch.

John J. Cunningham, who carries papers, was going by Mr. Hall’s stable, and says Mrs. Churchill and several men were talking very serious. He asked them what the matter was, and a boy by the name of Albert Pierce told him that some one had stabbed A. J. Borden at his house. Cunningham says be went right into Mr. Gorman’s store, corner of Second and Borden streets, and telephoned what he had heard, first to the City Marshal, then to the Daily Globe office. By the clock in Mr. Gorman’s store, it was then ten minutes to eleven; but it may not have been right.

James Leonard, who drives for Dr. Bowen, says be had drove up to the house with the doctor, when his wife came out and told the doctor to go right over to Borden’s, as something terrible had happened. It was then five minutes past eleven.

Alice M. Russell says that Bridget Sullivan came to her house, 33 Borden street, at 11.15 and told her Mr. Borden had been badly hurt, and Lizzie wanted her to come up there right away."

However, Fleet, pg. 2 who always marches to a different drummer states that Lizzie told him:
"Bridget had gone up stairs, and when I came back I found father dead on the lounge, and went to the back stairs and called Bridget (servant) down stairs. Told her that some one had killed father, and told her to get Dr. Bowen.”

--Also, Dr. Chagnon was out of town and so was Dr. Kelly. I don't know if Lizzie knew this or not. So it's either odd, a coincidence, was relied upon for a plan to work that day, or was a case of prejudice, or doesn't enter into the equation at all. :?:
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Post by Allen »

Audrey @ Tue Jun 28, 2005 8:48 pm wrote:I don't think she would have called Mrs Churchill over... If her intention was to rid the house of witnesses by sending Bridget off-- she did the exact opposite by calling Addie over..
Good point, Audrey. I'm not sure she really wanted Mrs. Churchill to come over, I think maybe she was not given much choice. After Mrs. Churchill called out to her and asked her what was the matter, what could she say really? Her parents were murdered. She couldn't very well say everything was ok, and there was nothing to worry about. She probably figured that upon hearing her father was killed, or at the least hurt very badly, she would rush right over anyway. But it is a good point that she didn't then have time to go back in and finish off Andrew with Mrs. Churchill arriving there so soon, Bridget coming and going, and then Doctor Bowen showing up.Thank you for the testimony, Harry. :smile:
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Post by augusta »

Allen got me thinking. Yes, Lizzie did have a choice on how she answered Mrs. Churchill's question. Bridget wanted to go in the sitting room, and Lizzie prevented it. Lizzie could have told Mrs. Churchill: "Please, Mrs. Churchill, wait until others get here. I don't want you to have to see it." Or something like that. True, Mrs. Churchill's question wasn't planned. But it was then okay, and Lizzie may have known it was okay - and maybe to Lizzie's advantage - to ask her over then.

It did work to her advantage, because Addie was able to testify how there was no blood on Lizzie so shortly after Andrew's murder.

I never thought of that before- nobody said "Call the coppers!" And the guy who did also thought to call the newspaper.

Maybe everyone - including Lizzie - did not know if Andrew was truly dead, and if there were any chance of saving him a doctor was the right call. Or, if Lizzie knew he was dead, the others (Bridget, Addie) didn't know for sure and thought we'd better act fast and get a doctor here if he is to be saved at all.

It did knock everyone's high tops and Congress boots off. People didn't behave totally rationally that day.
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Post by Bob Gutowski »

I used to post on other, older sites, that I wondered if Lizzie (whom I believe was guilty) went in and had another look at Andrew to make sure he was "sincerely dead" after she sent Bridget off on her errand.
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Post by twinsrwe »

I have always wondered why Lizzie didn't go for the doctor herself, if she thought that her father may still be alive. Why waste the time calling for Bridget to get a doctor; it would have been faster if she had gone herself.

And why send the only other person in the house off for a doctor, if she thought someone had come in and killed her father. Lizzie displayed no fear, at all, being in the house alone right after her father was killed. Very strange.

There may not have been a lot of time between sending Bridget for the doctor and when Mrs. Churchill got there, but perhaps there was enough time to "clean up" the crime scene; like get rid of the weapon.
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Post by Edisto »

-- And pray tell, where did Lizzie put the weapon during that extra time she created for herself? I'm all ears! (That's why I don't wear my hair in a ponytail.)
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Post by twinsrwe »

Edisto - If any of us knew the answer to that question, there wouldn't be a Lizzie Borden Society Forum would there.
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Post by Kat »

I think if Lizzie got rid of a weapon it would be before she called Bridget down, unless she never did call Bridget down (because they cooked up that story).
Some think when Lizzie was supposedly seen outside by Hyman Lubinsky, she was throwing that hatchet up on the Crowe barn roof.
I thought maybe she was throwing it up in the tree. Hide in plain sight, both ways, though.

The handless hatchet produced at the trial apparently had a handle seen by Medley and so could not be that roll of something Harrington saw burned to ash in the stove.
It seemed to have disappeared at some point tho. I wonder why?

I also wondered if Lizzie was lying on it while she rested on the lounge in her room?
I saw Shelly (who used to play Lizzie at the house) once try to pull a hatchet out of the kitchen drawer, but it was missing (as a prop). But I also do not know what, if any, kitchen drawers the Bordens had back in the day.

Her own sister, Emma, in a 1913 interview said the main thing which confirmed her faith in Lizzie's innocence was that Lizzie never had time to hide the weapon so thoroughly that the police could not ever find it.
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Post by 1bigsteve »

Good points!

I would be a firm believer in Lizzie's guilt if I could just figure out #1, where did she hide the hatchet and #2, how did she keep blood off her face and her hair.

Perhaps Andrew's heart was still beating when Lizzie sent the maid for the Doctor. That would help explain the "oozing blood." :shock:

-1bigsteve (o:
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