This photo is a blow-up I made of a picture that appeared in a 1996 article in the Yankee magazine. From this blow-up I snipped out the view between the Borden house and barn showing the Churchill house.
The distance between the two houses is distorted because of the weird angle the photo was shot.
What is peculiar is the rather odd decoration(?) that appears along the roof overhang on the Churchill house. These appear to be evenly spaced pieces of wood(?) or metal(?) the shape of which barbed wire is sometimes attached. Any guesses what that could be?
In any case it's an interesting view of the house. The second photo is a small version of this same photo (not from the Yankee magazine) which is named backyard1893. I don't know who named it that or if it was indeed taken in 1893.
That also may be the top of the Bowen-Miller house in the distance in the large photo.
I know I ask perfection of a quite imperfect world
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
I cannot believe more members of the Churchill/Buffinton family weren't questioned. Davis wasn't the only butcher.
I believe those pieces of wood/metal were meant as a security device with the barbed wire to prevent someone from climbing the fence and sneaking in a second story window.
nbcatlover @ Wed Feb 01, 2006 11:56 pm wrote:I cannot believe more members of the Churchill/Buffinton family weren't questioned. Davis wasn't the only butcher.
I believe those pieces of wood/metal were meant as a security device with the barbed wire to prevent someone from climbing the fence and sneaking in a second story window.
That's an interesting idea.
I usually tend to think that the people who put up guards against robbers are the same ones who already have been victims of break-ins.
If these are indeed safety features- maybe something happened at the Churchill house in the past? I hadn't thought of that.
Harry, I went through the photos on the LBVM&L site to see if there was another pic that showed more of that portion of the Churchill house. I found this one from 1910, from what I see, it appears to be some sort of roof decoration.
“Sometimes when we are generous in small, barely detectable ways it can change someone else's life forever.”-Margaret Cho comedienne
nbcatlover @ Wed Feb 01, 2006 11:59 pm wrote:The shutters are very helter-skelter in the bottom photo.
Yes, those shutters on the rear of the Borden house are hard to explain. Virtually every window has at least one panel that has its slats open (the dark squares) but it's not the same panel position. At least I assume that panel is open.
Kat, can't you just see Mrs. Churchill at the window opposite the back steps! What a shame that scene wasn't in the Legend movie.
Thanks for the photo Susan. That reminded me of the tearing-down-of-the- barn photo, and sure enough we can see a corner and the rear of the Churchill house. It has those identical ornamental designs shown on the front of the house. The barn was torn down I believe in 1929.
For a great description of the Churchill house see the January 1998 issue of the LBQ. Neilson Caplain's Lizbits column is devoted to the house. He laments "It is difficult to describe the Buffinton house. The problem is that there are no pictures of the whole front facade of the house, at least none in the Historical Society where Janelle Tanous was good enough to search among the archives. ..."
.
I know I ask perfection of a quite imperfect world
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
Steve,
You just freaked me out!!! That does look like a person in the Churchill window.
A lot of the houses of that day had ginger bread wood work. The Churchill house has it on the columns/posts at the front of the house too.
I can’t believe that with all of the fame of this murder case and with all the advancements in photography over the years, and with all of the arm chair detectives out there, that there isn’t lots of pictures (from all angles) of not only the Churchill house, but all of the surrounding houses, yards, lots, etc, etc. Such a shame!
I agree with you, Al on the lack of photos. I had never even seen a backyard photo of Lizzie's house until "Fourty Wacks" came out. Now Harry and the others come up with all these cool photos that I download. Seeing all these nice pictures from different angles gives the Borden case a "human touch" that I can better relate to instead of it remaining some obscure, dusty, moldy murder case that happened long, long ago in a galaxie far, far away...
I like to see photos in a book. "So that's what the barn looked like", or "That is the side door Lizzie went through", Oh I understand now! Photos give me something to bond with, a connection. Without pictures I just throw the book out regardless of how juicy the story may be. Maybe that is why I like kids books.
That image in the window does look like a person looking toward the photographer. I see what looks like sleeves, a (their) right hand, and a face. Mrs. Churchill perhaps? (What's that idiot doing with that camera in the Borden yard?) Maybe Harry or some of the regulars can isolate that image and blow it up for us.
-1bigsteve (o:
"All of your tomorrows begin today. Move it!" -Susan Hayward 1973
From the other photo, I guess those things on the roof are some kind of fancy cresting. In the Victorian period, it was my understanding that most roof crestings were cast or wrought iron and most were straight up-and-down, not curved. Very fancy.
nbcatlover @ Thu Feb 02, 2006 3:16 pm wrote:From the other photo, I guess those things on the roof are some kind of fancy cresting. In the Victorian period, it was my understanding that most roof crestings were cast or wrought iron and most were straight up-and-down, not curved. Very fancy.
Steve,
I’ve gone a little farther; in my lap top I have a master file (Borden Murders) in the file are sub files with photos or drawings or newspaper accounts on everything and anything related, IE:
Abby – Photos & Newspapers
Andrew – Photos & Newspaper
Or
Bedroom- Lizzie
Bedroom – Emma
Or
House – Churchill
House – Borden
Or
Kitchen
Parlour
Sitting Room
………..and on and on……………
That way when I’m reading a book or looking up something that’s being talked about on this forum, I have a quick reference. I don’t have to break my thought pattern by trying to find whatever I’m looking for in one of the books in my collection. I’m not as good at it as some on this forum. I don’t know how they do it!
I can also take it “all” on the road. If I’m at a Starbucks (sorry-west coast) having coffee I can be reading the testimony and be looking at the floor plans, yard photos and /or pictures of the yard; at the same time.
Still, it would be nice to come across a new photo or two!!! I’m sure they’re out there….in somebody’s attic or basement.
It would be interesting to know for sure if the image in the Churchill window is really a person. Seeing someone in the neighbour’s yard (or anywhere in those days) with a camera was cause for curiosity.
How about it Harry? Anyone? Can the image be isolated and enlarged?
Looks like you have it nailed, Al. I have a sub file with-in My Documents folder with all my Lizzie stuff in it. It works real good for me. I have it linked to my desktop.
I don't have a lap top yet but I need to get one so I can stock trade on the go. I'm concerned about the wireless technology and the thieves that steal your passwords. I can't afford to have some nit-wit empty my online trading account but I can make even more if I had a lap top. Catch-22! Do they make a lap top with a 19" screen? It's hard to see the candlesticks on a 17 incher.
I'm going to get a scanner so I can download all of my Borden stuff from the various sources I have and then burn it onto CD. That will protect me from crashes and allow me to restore my computer to day #1 when ever I get a glitch. I don't want to loose my Lizzie stuff.
I'm glad your system is working good for you, Al.
-1bigsteve (o:
"All of your tomorrows begin today. Move it!" -Susan Hayward 1973
Susan @ Thu Feb 02, 2006 6:00 pm wrote:You're welcome, Harry. That photo of the barn razing was a good call, hadn't thought of that one myself for a view of the Churchill house.
Steve, which window on the Churchill house are you looking at, the center one?
Hi Susan,
It is the large window on the second story that sits in between the two lower windows but it's on the second story. It seems to be a tall window. There is a much smaller window directly above it near the edge of the gutter or eve. So it is a tall window on the second story with a much smaller window directly above it. It looks like a woman because I can see what looks like mutton sleeves. "She" look's as if she is leaning forward slightly as if to check out the photographer so maybe the upper pane was opened. At the top of that window you can see a white glob that may be "her" face.
Can you see it yet? If you can't then take another drink. The image is there but I just don't know if it is real or just a play with light. Maybe Harry can take a magnifying glass to the magazine photo and let us know. I took a look at my monitor screen through my glass and it does look like a woman, it seems to have 3-D form, but I can't be sure.
-1bigsteve (o:
"All of your tomorrows begin today. Move it!" -Susan Hayward 1973
I am afraid there is not much that can be done about getting a clearer image of the "face in the window". I magnified the photo even further but when you do that you lose even more clarity. In this case there was little clarity to begin with. I re-scanned the magazine photo at 600dpi which resulted in a 10mb photo. That is HUGE.
Here is a portion of that photo:
The photo in the magazine is actually about one inch less wider and one inch less taller than the following:
I know I ask perfection of a quite imperfect world
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
It does look like a woman's figure. Maybe it was Mrs. Churchill gandering at the photographer. That long white thing I thought was a right hand may be a dusting cloth in her right hand. Perhaps she was upstairs dusting at the time, like Abby was on the morning of the murders. The tiny white spot to "our" right of the larger white spot could be her left fist resting on top of the middle window frame. I can see two tiny black dots on the face that are where the eyes would normaly be.
It looks like a human figure but it could be something else too like folds of the drapes and light coming through an opposing window.
Thank's again Harry.
-1bigsteve (o:
"All of your tomorrows begin today. Move it!" -Susan Hayward 1973
That would have to be one TALL woman or she would be standing on something to be at the top of that window!! it is much more likely that it is curtains at that window that have become draped to look like this.
The only reason I can think of for a person to be in that position would be to wash windows from the inside.
I thought of the "woman's" height too. She does seem awfully tall but if she were standing on a box to clean the top window that could explain it. I think it was probably someone who was doing house work when the picture was taken but like you said, Gramma, it could be the drapes and the "face" could be light from the far window. It's interesting whatever it is.
-1bigsteve (o:
"All of your tomorrows begin today. Move it!" -Susan Hayward 1973
Kat @ Fri Feb 03, 2006 3:14 pm wrote:Are those decorative gee-gaws on the Churchill roofline, or something utilitarian? Was a decision made?
(And what are "Snow Guards", does anyone know?)
It look's to me to be decorative do-dads. It could be snow gaurds but that portion of the roof appears to narrow and flat for snow guards. Snow guards prevent large slabs of snow from sliding off a roof and burying someone below.
-1bigsteve (o:
"All of your tomorrows begin today. Move it!" -Susan Hayward 1973
I agree, I think those things are just decorative. From what I've read, snow guards are on steep pitched roofs and usually those roofs are covered with slate.
Eave details include snow guards, snow boards, and gutter treatments. Snow guards are generally used in areas where the ice and snow accumulate to avoid dangerous slides from the roof.
“Sometimes when we are generous in small, barely detectable ways it can change someone else's life forever.”-Margaret Cho comedienne
This enlarged pic really brings out the great gingerbread features of the house such as the carved corner piece at the top of the pillar. Taking a guess that the fence would be wrought iron, but the porch bannister is hard to see. Looks as if it too could be fancy woodwork. I grew up in central PA which is filled with great old Victorian homes and this looks very much like the wood trim that graced many of them. The fancy trim at the base of the roof could be carved wood. It seems rather large and ornate compared to some of the ironwork I have seen. Only an observation as I am no expert, just one who appreciates the beauty of Victorian architecture.
I am very much a novice at studying this case, but I must say I am surprised to learn that there was not more questioning of the neighbors, especially now that I can see how close they were! Front row seat to the house and barn from those side windows!
Hmmm, "the person in the window"... maybe they had to stand on something to see who was in the backyard next door? Or of course it could all be a play on the lights and shadowing, but sure looks like someone standing there to me!
Reading between the lines... I am guessing this house no longer exists?
I thought I would go out, and see if the air would make me feel any better. "Lizzie Andrew Borden"
Susan @ Fri Feb 03, 2006 8:37 pm wrote:Eave details include snow guards, snow boards, and gutter treatments. Snow guards are generally used in areas where the ice and snow accumulate to avoid dangerous slides from the roof.
We don't have enough snow and it doesn't last long enough to bother much with things like snow guards.
Right now it's February in New England. It was rainy and probably in the low 50s today. Foggy. We haven't had much snow at all this year. Being close to the shore, the ocean tempers our climate nicely here. Right along the coast, up to Cape Cod, we're still in Plant Hardiness Zone 6, some areas are even 7, same as Virginia and the northern parts of the Carolinas.
We don't have no stinkin' snow guards.
The stuff that Melissa so nicely shows above is decorative scroll work, most likely wood. It was all the rage back then.
I've met Kat and Harry and Stef, oh my!
(And Diana, Richard, nbcatlover, Doug Parkhurst and Marilou, Shelley, "Cemetery" Jeff, Nadzieja, kfactor, Barbara, JoAnne, Michael, Katrina and my 255 character limit is up.)
Kat @ Fri Feb 03, 2006 10:26 pm wrote:Thanks you guys for finding out more about snow guards and letting me know!!
You're welcome, Kat. Harry wanted us to keep it from you but we talked him out of it.
I love your new avatar. So you like flowers? Everything I plant dies. Ever been to Butchart Gardens? It is so beautiful you will die!!!!! I have never seen anything so beautiful in my life and I'm NOT kidding!!! Out of this world! I took the tour in 1968 and people have told me it is even more beautiful now. You got to see that place, all of you. WOW!
-1bigsteve (o:
"All of your tomorrows begin today. Move it!" -Susan Hayward 1973
Cool site, Cynthia! Thank's. I love houses from that era.
I can't see how anyone could get up on those steep roofs without sliding off. But they are beautiful. They don't build too many like that any more. Those were real houses!
-1bigsteve (o:
"All of your tomorrows begin today. Move it!" -Susan Hayward 1973
I have to say I was in 2 huge mansions Friday night which were brand new, and had all the fancy touches- cathedral ceilings, fireplaces, columns, marble floors and huge kitchens with gigantic center islands- beautifully decorated.
One had 2-story front doors made of glass and a deep mahogany wood with modern carvings.
I think I would like one of those and one of these older Victorian models too!
Can I have both?
Harry, those were some great observations!
When I created my 3D model of the neighborhood, I had very few photos showing the neighboring homes, and I see now that I have the Churchill porch, and the side of the house, all wrong. I couldn't make out that the side of the house ran right on the property line. I assumed there was some space between the property lines, with a fence separting. I also thought the porch ran all the way to the rear of the house. I'll have to get it fixed one of these days!
I think the gingerbread cresting around the porch is just decorative. The porch roof looks too flat to be a snow avalanche problem. But it's another detail I missed in my model!
For those talking about the face in the window, it is too large (and high) to be anything but an optical illusion. Besides being curtains, or internal lights, I've found many supposed ghost faces in windows to be reflections of trees, etc, in the glass. And considering the irregular surface quality of glass in those days, just about any reflection would be wildly distorted.
The objects in the picture I think are foreshortened.
They appear closer to each other than they actually are.
I noticed how close things seemed to be and asked Harry about it earlier.
I won't speak for him but he did explain it to me.
Here is a drawing in Rebello which will show you there is about 26 feet between the Borden house and the Churchill house. The measurements show as 16 to the fence and I think there are rules which are sort of standard that the next house would not be closer than about 10 feet, so I am adding that info to the estimate.
I don't know if this affects your drawings.
Harry, Stef and I have permission of the author to show his illustrations from his book if we give credit.
I write it right on the picture itself.
Hope this helps.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Yes, the angles and quality of those old photos really trick the eye!
I think I hit the nail on the head with the Borden house, barn and yard, but I'll have to revisit my model soon, and make some revisions to the ol' Churchill place.
Proof Positive how deceiving photos can be. I would not have guessed the distance between the two houses to be this much. Thanks for sharing this, I have learned some new things from this!
I thought I would go out, and see if the air would make me feel any better. "Lizzie Andrew Borden"
If I remember right, according to Rebello the Churchill house was destroyed by fire in 1961. Considering that it survived till then you would think there would be pictures of it somewhere. Mabe they took a picture of it after it burned for the newspaper.
What is a Picture, but the capture of a moment in time.
Susan @ Thu Feb 02, 2006 4:15 am wrote:Harry, I went through the photos on the LBVM&L site to see if there was another pic that showed more of that portion of the Churchill house. I found this one from 1910, from what I see, it appears to be some sort of roof decoration.
Yes, thats a cast iron roof decoration intended to spiff up a low addition and give some hieght to a one story addition attached to higher main block/house! Very popular at the end of the 19th century.
What interests me is the roofline of a house behind that barn. Isn't this where the orchard used to be? It looks too far to the left to be Crowe's barn, and too far to the right to be Chagnon's. It also cannot be the house which is behind the Kelly house today. Harry? I bet you know.
Yes, it had to be built after 1892. This little section of a drawing of the area behind the Borden house shows the Chagnon driveway directly behind the Borden barn. The portion of the Chagnon house to the right had a flat roof. Further to the right, off the drawing, the house had a peaked roof.
It would seem to me that in order for that roof to be where it is, directly behind the barn, that the Chagnon house would have been torn down by the 1910s.
I know I ask perfection of a quite imperfect world
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
I'm not at all sure, Kat, but I believe a newspaper. It was made by a Elaine Alves. I only showed a small portion of the drawing.
There is a similar, but not identical, drawing in the June 15th, 1893 Boston Globe. Rebello has a copy of it on page 47.
There is photograph that appeared in a 1929 newspaper at the time the barn was being torn down. There was a hatchet-like tool found in the wall at that time. The photo I have of the newspaper page is of very poor quality but does not, as far as I can make out, show a building directly behind the barn. However, we don't know when the photo was taken. Just because it is in a 1929 paper doesn't mean it was taken then.
I know I ask perfection of a quite imperfect world
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
This is behind the fence, but to the right (South) of the barn. The house behind "Kelly's" shown at the top of this photo was built after 1892, and all the diagrams of Chagnon's house seem to show their house behind the barn, but with a very different roofline, and much further to the left (North)behind the barn, not lining up directly. Of course, maybe the camera angle is making it appear this way. Strange.
Harry @ Sun Dec 03, 2006 7:21 am wrote:I'm not at all sure, Kat, but I believe a newspaper. It was made by a Elaine Alves. I only showed a small portion of the drawing.
There is a similar, but not identical, drawing in the June 15th, 1893 Boston Globe. Rebello has a copy of it on page 47.
OK I found it. It's from Hands of Time. Yes you're showing just a snippet. Thanks. It is pretty cool.
I can't agree that the Chagnon house was behind the barn. Their driveway was. To the north of that was the flat roof portion of the Chagnon house. To the north of that was the peaked roof portion. The peaked roof portion was at a diagonal to the barn and in no way could you line up the barn roof with the peaked roof of the Chagnon house as shown in the 1910 photo.
I know I ask perfection of a quite imperfect world
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
The image is there but I just don't know if it is real or just a play with light. Maybe Harry can take a magnifying glass to the magazine photo and let us know. I took a look at my monitor screen through my glass and it does look like a woman, it seems to have 3-D form, but I can't be sure.
I have never seen anything so beautiful in my life and I'm NOT kidding!!! Out of this world! I took the tour in 1968 and people have told me it is even more beautiful now. You got to see that place, all of you. WOW! 
