Was Andrew gay?
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- Allen
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Finally a topic that doesn't have to do with Brown's theory. While I cannot say with 100% certainty there is any evidence for/against Andrew being gay, I do think there is overwhelming evidence that neither of them were present in the house at the time that Abby died. Witness statements taken from people who saw Andrew through out the day give us a rough timeline of his movements. The same can be said for John Morse. I would also have to admit I lean towards Andrew being heterosexual.
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche
- Allen
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Not necessarily true. We cannot be sure that Abby didn't suffer from some sort of medical problem that prevented her from bearing children.rgreen4411 @ Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:26 pm wrote:With limited birth control options in those days heterosexual marriages usually produced kids. People could not just elect to be childless unless they chose to be celibate.
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche
- Shelley
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I have several friends in their thirties now (Abby's age) who are desperate to have children but cannot conceive. This is not unusual then or now and is no reflection of intimacy. The couple slept in a double bed, and inasmuch as anyone commented upon their marital bliss, appeared to be happily married for 27 years.
I think Andrew was exactly what he appeared to be- a frugal New England Yankee with a hard work, no frills, no waste, stoic approach to life which he no doubt learned from his parents. I can imagine he had a hard time seeing why Lizzie was not satisfied with her lot, and certainly tried to be fair to the girls when pressed to do so. Actually I married such a Yankee myself, so they are still alive and well in New England.![Very Happy :grin:](./images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif)
I think Andrew was exactly what he appeared to be- a frugal New England Yankee with a hard work, no frills, no waste, stoic approach to life which he no doubt learned from his parents. I can imagine he had a hard time seeing why Lizzie was not satisfied with her lot, and certainly tried to be fair to the girls when pressed to do so. Actually I married such a Yankee myself, so they are still alive and well in New England.
![Very Happy :grin:](./images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif)
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Morse lived with another man and never married. My recollection is he visited the Bordens often. His behavior was also peculiar. When he arrived back at the Borden's he did not seem at all surprised by all the police activity. Instead he went into the back yard and ate pears.
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- theebmonique
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Shelley, I do apologoze for my 'fat chick' comment. I should not have tried to make a humorous response to the post I was commenting on. I know the autopsy resport on Abby included: Body that of a female, very well nourished and very fleshy 64 years of age. 5 feet, 3 inches in height., and with that being said, maybe my 'FC' comment was a bit much since no specific 'weight' was mentioned.
Also, when I said they were older and didn't 'need' children, I only meant exactly that...not that they couldn't or shouldn't.
I understand rgreen4411 is new to us, but maybe not new to the case and I was just hoping to find out how he/she came up with their theory. What influeneces from what books...what source documents, etc. Obviously, we are all influenced by whatever information we study on this case...that's how we copme up with our ideas afterall.
Again, Shelley, I apologize if some of my remarks offended you.
Tracy...
Also, when I said they were older and didn't 'need' children, I only meant exactly that...not that they couldn't or shouldn't.
I understand rgreen4411 is new to us, but maybe not new to the case and I was just hoping to find out how he/she came up with their theory. What influeneces from what books...what source documents, etc. Obviously, we are all influenced by whatever information we study on this case...that's how we copme up with our ideas afterall.
Again, Shelley, I apologize if some of my remarks offended you.
Tracy...
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Masterton's book has the murders happening close together
Allen @ Wed Jan 10, 2007 7:28 pm wrote:Finally a topic that doesn't have to do with Brown's theory. While I cannot say with 100% certainty there is any evidence for/against Andrew being gay, I do think there is overwhelming evidence that neither of them were present in the house at the time that Abby died. Witness statements taken from people who saw Andrew through out the day give us a rough timeline of his movements. The same can be said for John Morse. I would also have to admit I lean towards Andrew being heterosexual.
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WOW, That was some theory, I haven't read as much as most of you, but just reading about how cheap Andrew was and the food he had his family eat, well think about it. Can you imagine knowing you can absolutely afford just about anything, and wanting to be with your peers in society and always being told NO. In that day you blindly had to obey adults and even if you did, I'm sure alot of resentment developed. Also I'm not too sure what to think about Uncle John. I don't think he and Andrew were lovers if anything Lizzie and Emma would have been easy targets for him seeing that the guest room had access to Lizzie & Emma's rooms. The thing that I really don't understand is Lizzie's reaction to seeing her murdered father. Even if she was in shock, you would think just plain instinct would make her back away from his body, and get out as fast as possible. If it was a normal death no, but this was different. This was a very unusual happening, how often does one see someone hacked to death in their home. Also, can someone please tell me what are the Knowlton Papers. Is this a book? or articles? I never heard of them before.
- Shelley
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He was staying with blind butcher Issac Davis and his son- he was not "living with another man" in the sense he was a significant other and sexual partner to Mr. Davis. He knew the man and had worked for him when he was younger I believe. Uncle John, if you read some of the better source books on this case, travelled about and was a pretty free spirit. As you must know, he spent a lot of time out in Hastings , Iowa and I believe he came back East periodically and stayed awhile visiting and doing some business when he came out. I believe he died and is buried out in Iowa.rgreen4411 @ Wed Jan 10, 2007 7:10 pm wrote:Morse lived with another man and never married. My recollection is he visited the Bordens often. His behavior was also peculiar. When he arrived back at the Borden's he did not seem at all surprised by all the police activity. Instead he went into the back yard and ate pears.
As for Abby not having children- did you ever stop to think that maybe Andrew had become sterile or impotent? Men seldom do think so- it is usually blamed on the women back in 1892. I am acquainted with two childhood friends, now men in their forties, one who developed an infection of the seminal tract and one who had mumps -both were rendered sterile by these conditions. Just type in "causes of male sterility" into Google and see the results. Abby may also have had a miscarriage- that would have been a private matter which would not have been bandied about by men.
Oh , Monique, I am not upset by your post. Not at all. People forget that Abby was not always old, dumpy and fat. In fact what I believe to be her wedding photo in that plaid silk gown, I think she had a sweet face and very kindly eyes. She was not overweight there. I believe being so short, she had trouble later on with her weight, every pound looks like 10 pounds on a short-waisted person of small stature. With Andrew's money, he quite likely had a pick of a few unmarried ladies and widows. I am sure Abby had many traits to recommend her and he chose her. I am afraid many take the 1975 movie as Gospel truth as to what Mr. and Mrs. Borden were like- and fact is, we don't really know a whole lot about anybody really- only people's opinions, impressions gleaned from testimonies at the trial and inquest and what the newspapers printed.
Theories about this case I enjoy as a hobby- but one must be prepared to defend them and take on a lot of hard questioning from others if you post a personal theory. And be prepared to be challenged and have testimonies and documentation at the ready to back up a theory. It's nothing personal if I disagree- we can all have a theory.
On one thing we agree, Rgreen- John seems peculiar to us from what we know now of his actions as they were described to us . Yes, looking into the back yard and picking up a pear to eat is odd- but I wonder if we have ALL of that story. Perhaps there was something he wanted to see in that backyard which attracted his attention and while he was there he stooped over and picked up a pear from the ground. Stating one's actions later can come off sounding peculiar, but we do not know exactly what he took in walking in through the gate, or if he was just off deep in thought or preoccupied and not taking it all in. I hate to say as I get older I find myself walking into the garage, or a room and finding I have not realized why I was doing it or forgotten what I had come for.
Everyone reacts differently. You might think you would scream and race in the door demanding to know what was going on if you happened to see a policeman at the door- or some people milling around the yard, but that may not have been how John processed things.
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When Morse returned home there were quite a few people in front of the house and in the yard. He may have just gone behind the house to see what these people were up to in Andrew's yard. He may have thought Andrew was not home yet.
His concern for the property seems to be supported by his actions in the afternoon. He spent the entire afternoon out in the yard. There doesn't appear to be record of what he did but I assume he did some watching that people didn't walk off with anything.
There was the incident where he grew angry at men being in the barn and locked them in. This was in the FR Herald News on the 6th:
"... Later he locked the barn when a couple of Boston newspaper men were inside and found considerable fault with the liberties people took with the premises. He was reminded that a reward of $5000 had been offered, and that everybody was intensely interested. ..."
Sharing Andrew's bent for frugality, I think the protection of the property would have been important to him.
His concern for the property seems to be supported by his actions in the afternoon. He spent the entire afternoon out in the yard. There doesn't appear to be record of what he did but I assume he did some watching that people didn't walk off with anything.
There was the incident where he grew angry at men being in the barn and locked them in. This was in the FR Herald News on the 6th:
"... Later he locked the barn when a couple of Boston newspaper men were inside and found considerable fault with the liberties people took with the premises. He was reminded that a reward of $5000 had been offered, and that everybody was intensely interested. ..."
Sharing Andrew's bent for frugality, I think the protection of the property would have been important to him.
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That does sound in perfect character for what we know of John. The police seemed preoccupied with other things and I guess someone had to keep an eye out for the property!
Here is a short review of the Knowlton Papers, published by the FRHS in 1994 and currently very hard to find, especially a cheap copy!!- from Amazon
"This book is a fascinating look at the people and times of America circa 1892-1893. The letters and other correspondence of Hosea Knowlton,Prosecuting Attorney of the Southern District of the Commonwealth of Mass. draw a vivid picture of people from all walks of life and their opinions and reactions to the murder of the Borden family. Anyone who has been drawn into the mystique of Lizzie Borden and her times will not regret the time spent with this book."
Here is a short review of the Knowlton Papers, published by the FRHS in 1994 and currently very hard to find, especially a cheap copy!!- from Amazon
"This book is a fascinating look at the people and times of America circa 1892-1893. The letters and other correspondence of Hosea Knowlton,Prosecuting Attorney of the Southern District of the Commonwealth of Mass. draw a vivid picture of people from all walks of life and their opinions and reactions to the murder of the Borden family. Anyone who has been drawn into the mystique of Lizzie Borden and her times will not regret the time spent with this book."
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Weren't condoms invented by Napoleon's time?Allen @ Wed Jan 10, 2007 7:31 pm wrote:Not necessarily true. We cannot be sure that Abby didn't suffer from some sort of medical problem that prevented her from bearing children.rgreen4411 @ Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:26 pm wrote:With limited birth control options in those days heterosexual marriages usually produced kids. People could not just elect to be childless unless they chose to be celibate.
It was Farmer William in the Bedroom with the Hatchet.
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You seem to know too much for your speculative theories.rgreen4411 @ Wed Jan 10, 2007 8:10 pm wrote:Morse lived with another man and never married. My recollection is he visited the Bordens often. His behavior was also peculiar. When he arrived back at the Borden's he did not seem at all surprised by all the police activity. Instead he went into the back yard and ate pears.
The fact is that you (and most of us) know vey little about Uncle John's life, either in Iowa or Massachusetts.
And we will never know, just talk about it because of a personal bias or outlook.
I hope you are not someone who was ejected from this site last year?
It was Farmer William in the Bedroom with the Hatchet.
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My understanding is that a note from Lizzie delivered by Dr. Bowen brought Uncle John back to the house. He knew before he returned what happened. That is why he prepared his alibi about the return trip.Shelley @ Wed Jan 10, 2007 11:30 pm wrote:...
Theories about this case I enjoy as a hobby- but one must be prepared to defend them and take on a lot of hard questioning from others if you post a personal theory. And be prepared to be challenged and have testimonies and documentation at the ready to back up a theory. It's nothing personal if I disagree- we can all have a theory.
On one thing we agree, Rgreen- John seems peculiar to us from what we know now of his actions as they were described to us . Yes, looking into the back yard and picking up a pear to eat is odd- but I wonder if we have ALL of that story. Perhaps there was something he wanted to see in that backyard which attracted his attention and while he was there he stooped over and picked up a pear from the ground. Stating one's actions later can come off sounding peculiar, but we do not know exactly what he took in walking in through the gate, or if he was just off deep in thought or preoccupied and not taking it all in. I hate to say as I get older I find myself walking into the garage, or a room and finding I have not realized why I was doing it or forgotten what I had come for.
Everyone reacts differently. You might think you would scream and race in the door demanding to know what was going on if you happened to see a policeman at the door- or some people milling around the yard, but that may not have been how John processed things.
As for eating a pear, that was just an action to cover his hanging around to listen to the police conversations about the case. And maybe to prepare his excuse. Brown notes that he entered the back yard w/o being seen, which shows there was another entrance than from the front.
Do we know how he left the yard that evening for the Post Office?
It was Farmer William in the Bedroom with the Hatchet.
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Re: Was Andrew gay?
I never thought of it like that. But it would explain alot. But how would explain all of Lizzie's inconsisitancies in all her answers? She did give a bunch of them.rgreen4411 @ Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:32 pm wrote:My suspicion is John Morse and Andrew were homosexual. Morse never married and lived with a man. His frequent overnight stays at the Borden's suggest an affair. Andrew's second marriage produced no children, a possible indication of a platonic marriage which is often the case when gay males marry. Another curious fact which makes me think of Andrew as effeminate is the fact he wore Lizzie's ring on his pinky finger.
MY THEORY
Morse created the note which sent Abby out of the house.
The men wanted to be alone and went to the guest bedroom.
Abby returned sooner than expected and heard unusual activity in the bedroom.
Fearing an intruder Abby grabbed a weapon (the new ax?) and burst into the bedroom.
Perhaps the bedroom door was locked, but Abby had a key hidden close by or on her person.
Abby discovered her husband and Morse engaged in sexual activity.
She may have waved the ax in protest or merely appeared threatening by just having it in her hand.
Morse, fearing for his life and reputation, killed Abby.
The amount of overkill suggests he was very frightened.
Andrew, fearing for his life at the hands of Morse, feigned calmness and went to the sofa to appear non-threatening. Andrew knew if he bided his time, someone would come.
Morse killed him because he was a witness.
Morse had been to his niece's house earlier that day.
Morse returned to his niece's home and changed the clocks in her house to confuse the occupants about the time frame.
Morse may have been naked at the time of the murder or he may have left clothes at the Borden house on a previous visit.
Morse had some dried blood on him. When he returned to the Borden residence he used several very moist pears to dilute and rub the blood off. Discarded after use the pears dried quickly in the summer heat and blended in with the ground.
I believe I have addressed motive, opportunity and explained the lack of blood evidence. In his business Morse may have often slaughtered cattle with a similar method and/or chopped wood. The action of swinging an ax may have been routine for him. Consider the fact that none of the blows missed the target.
On another note, I have always wondered why Lizzie was not afraid for her life. If I came upon a dead body I would be afraid the killer was still in the house. Flight would be my first thought. Instead Lizzie sent Bridgett out and stayed alone with the corpse.
Suicide is painless It brings on many changes and I will take my leave when I please.
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Maybe lizzie just didn't want to have stuff get out, you know? That is pretty hard thing to swallow that you have been sexually abused, even today, but then to have to admit your father and uncle are gay, would really be tough too. It's just speculation on my part, I mean, who knows what really was going on that day back in 1892.
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I expect Andrew would not have wanted anything to get out, either. Wearing the ring under the circumstances that there was something between himself and Lizzie other than an ordinary father-daughter relationship might have seemed like an advertisement to him. I suggest that because he wore the ring, the relationship would bear up under scrutiny.snokkums @ Sat Jan 20, 2007 3:24 pm wrote:Maybe lizzie just didn't want to have stuff get out, you know? That is pretty hard thing to swallow that you have been sexually abused, even today, but then to have to admit your father and uncle are gay, would really be tough too. It's just speculation on my part, I mean, who knows what really was going on that day back in 1892.
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modied theory
[Based upon your question I have modified my theory. I now suggest Andrew did attempt to intervene and suffered a blow to the head.
Here is a question I have about your theory:
Morse, fearing for his life and reputation, killed Abby.
The amount of overkill suggests he was very frightened.
Andrew, fearing for his life at the hands of Morse, feigned calmness and went to the sofa to appear non-threatening. Andrew knew if he bided his time, someone would come.
So, Andrew just stood there while John whacked Abby in the head 18 times and then calmly walked downstairs to nap ? What about Andrew having been seen downtown that day and then there's the whole scene of Bridget 'swearing' at the door locks when Andrew came home a bit earlier than usual that morning...you are saying that didn't happen ?
Tracy...[/quote]
Here is a question I have about your theory:
Morse, fearing for his life and reputation, killed Abby.
The amount of overkill suggests he was very frightened.
Andrew, fearing for his life at the hands of Morse, feigned calmness and went to the sofa to appear non-threatening. Andrew knew if he bided his time, someone would come.
So, Andrew just stood there while John whacked Abby in the head 18 times and then calmly walked downstairs to nap ? What about Andrew having been seen downtown that day and then there's the whole scene of Bridget 'swearing' at the door locks when Andrew came home a bit earlier than usual that morning...you are saying that didn't happen ?
Tracy...[/quote]
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Nonsense and rubbish! One of the great things about the olden days is that every other person wasn't gay. Gay gay gay I'm so sick of gay this and gay that. The deviant lifestyle was recognized as such in the 1890's, not passed off as simply an alternative. Some people are not happy unless homosexuality or sex abuse or sex with sheep can't be somehow worked into a story.
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Re: modied theory
So, you think Andrew's wounds were caused when he tried to intervene during the attack on Abby ?rgreen4411 @ Sun Jan 21, 2007 3:01 pm wrote:[Based upon your question I have modified my theory. I now suggest Andrew did attempt to intervene and suffered a blow to the head.
Here is a question I have about your theory:
Morse, fearing for his life and reputation, killed Abby.
The amount of overkill suggests he was very frightened.
Andrew, fearing for his life at the hands of Morse, feigned calmness and went to the sofa to appear non-threatening. Andrew knew if he bided his time, someone would come.
So, Andrew just stood there while John whacked Abby in the head 18 times and then calmly walked downstairs to nap ? What about Andrew having been seen downtown that day and then there's the whole scene of Bridget 'swearing' at the door locks when Andrew came home a bit earlier than usual that morning...you are saying that didn't happen ?
Tracy...
I have always thought Andrew was not even at home at that particular timw. I also thought is was in testimony that Andrew didn't come home until 10:30ish ?
If Andrew had come home earlier, during the time of Abby's attack, wouldn't Bridget or Lizzie have had to unlock the door ?
Also, if he received his wounds trying to save Abby, I would think there would have been more blood spattered around the guest room, plus more noise to attract the attention of others.
Since Andrew was found in the sitting room, how did he get down there with no discernable blood trail ?
Tracy...
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Steve, while you have every right to your opinion, I am offended by your desription of being gay as being deviant, and the suggestion that now it is a lifestyle that today is passed off as simply an alternative. Also, NO ONE here has mentioned beastiality, let alone worked it into a Lizzie-related theory to the best of my knowledge.Steveads2004 @ Sun Jan 21, 2007 4:18 pm wrote:Nonsense and rubbish! One of the great things about the olden days is that every other person wasn't gay. Gay gay gay I'm so sick of gay this and gay that. The deviant lifestyle was recognized as such in the 1890's, not passed off as simply an alternative. Some people are not happy unless homosexuality or sex abuse or sex with sheep can't be somehow worked into a story.
Tracy...
I'm defying gravity and you can't pull me down.
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Steveads2004 @ Sun Jan 21, 2007 6:18 pm wrote:Nonsense and rubbish! One of the great things about the olden days is that every other person wasn't gay. Gay gay gay I'm so sick of gay this and gay that. The deviant lifestyle was recognized as such in the 1890's, not passed off as simply an alternative. Some people are not happy unless homosexuality or sex abuse or sex with sheep can't be somehow worked into a story.
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Steveads2004 @ Sun Jan 21, 2007 6:18 pm wrote:Nonsense and rubbish! One of the great things about the olden days is that every other person wasn't gay. Gay gay gay I'm so sick of gay this and gay that. The deviant lifestyle was recognized as such in the 1890's, not passed off as simply an alternative. Some people are not happy unless homosexuality or sex abuse or sex with sheep can't be somehow worked into a story.
Where are you getting your information from? There have always been and will always be Gay people in this world. It is not a choice or a deviant lifestyle. Perhaps you should educate yourself.
"I'd luv to kiss ya, but I just washed my hair"
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Yes it is a choice or a lifestyle. Read your Bible.Smudgeman @ Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:18 am wrote:Steveads2004 @ Sun Jan 21, 2007 6:18 pm wrote:Nonsense and rubbish! One of the great things about the olden days is that every other person wasn't gay. Gay gay gay I'm so sick of gay this and gay that. The deviant lifestyle was recognized as such in the 1890's, not passed off as simply an alternative. Some people are not happy unless homosexuality or sex abuse or sex with sheep can't be somehow worked into a story.
Where are you getting your information from? There have always been and will always be Gay people in this world. It is not a choice or a deviant lifestyle. Perhaps you should educate yourself.
In Leviticus 18 chapter 18 22
"You shall not lie with man as with a woman: it is an abomination." So, you made the choice to be that way.
But I dont care which way you. That's your business, not mine.
Suicide is painless It brings on many changes and I will take my leave when I please.
- snokkums
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Not thumping. Like I said I don't care which way you are, you don't have to answer to me for what you are doing in your life.
I still like you anyway, and yes you do choose. Read all thru the Bible, I dont have to thump it.
I still like you anyway, and yes you do choose. Read all thru the Bible, I dont have to thump it.
Suicide is painless It brings on many changes and I will take my leave when I please.
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snokkums @ Mon Jan 22, 2007 6:35 am wrote:Yes it is a choice or a lifestyle. Read your Bible.Smudgeman @ Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:18 am wrote:Steveads2004 @ Sun Jan 21, 2007 6:18 pm wrote:Nonsense and rubbish! One of the great things about the olden days is that every other person wasn't gay. Gay gay gay I'm so sick of gay this and gay that. The deviant lifestyle was recognized as such in the 1890's, not passed off as simply an alternative. Some people are not happy unless homosexuality or sex abuse or sex with sheep can't be somehow worked into a story.
Where are you getting your information from? There have always been and will always be Gay people in this world. It is not a choice or a deviant lifestyle. Perhaps you should educate yourself.
In Leviticus 18 chapter 18 22
"You shall not lie with man as with a woman: it is an abomination." So, you made the choice to be that way.
But I dont care which way you. That's your business, not mine.
Snookums,
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal. and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.
I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.
a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?
g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?
i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
Sometimes to point out absurdity one must be absurd.
The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
Mohandas Gandhi
Mohandas Gandhi
- theebmonique
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The author Masterton places the two times death as closer together than previously thought. My theory is the first blow Andrew received caused a closed head injury...thus no blood trail from the guest room to the sofa. The concussion caused Andrew to be dazed. Morse killed Andrew because he was a witness to the slaying of Abbie.
For God so loved the world He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16
John 3:16
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Tracy
It is because we live in America. 2/3 of the world around us believes in reincarnation. The Koran is a beautifully written book, very loving and peaceful for the most part. Has some of the same stories, like the flood, except they have more than just one boatload of people surviving.
The Torah is just the first five books of our old testament.
I like the books of the bible that were not included, very fascinating stuff to read like Marys account of things. Some of the other disciples accounts are included in these lost books.
Very fascinating indeed
That little letter I posted is not original, was an open letter written to Dr. Laura, loved it though.
It is because we live in America. 2/3 of the world around us believes in reincarnation. The Koran is a beautifully written book, very loving and peaceful for the most part. Has some of the same stories, like the flood, except they have more than just one boatload of people surviving.
The Torah is just the first five books of our old testament.
I like the books of the bible that were not included, very fascinating stuff to read like Marys account of things. Some of the other disciples accounts are included in these lost books.
Very fascinating indeed
That little letter I posted is not original, was an open letter written to Dr. Laura, loved it though.
The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
Mohandas Gandhi
Mohandas Gandhi
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Bobbie!! Does that mean I have to let my Canadians go free?? Who will shovel snow if I do that? I'll have no one to augur a hole for ice fishing! Who's gonna fetch da firewood? The entire U.P. will have to undergo a period of reconstruction! Thats it, I've had it! Where's my musket?
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
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Dang Yooper, hated to tell you that and it being Monday and all!!!!Yooper @ Mon Jan 22, 2007 1:08 pm wrote:Bobbie!! Does that mean I have to let my Canadians go free?? Who will shovel snow if I do that? I'll have no one to augur a hole for ice fishing! Who's gonna fetch da firewood? The entire U.P. will have to undergo a period of reconstruction! Thats it, I've had it! Where's my musket?
The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
Mohandas Gandhi
Mohandas Gandhi
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You are absolutely correct! It's not a choice. My #2 son is gay, and looking back, I can see that he was always that way. He's also intelligent, well educated, well traveled, extremely talented, and very successful at 25 years of age. The perfect son!Smudgeman @ Mon Jan 22, 2007 10:30 am wrote:I like you too, Snokkums, that is not the issue. So, I guess if I read the Bible all the way through, I will miraculously be straight? I didn't wake up one day and say, "I think I will be Gay". I was born this way, I didn't choose it.
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No that is not what the bible says. The Bible tells you how to live you're life. It is up to you how you do it. The Bible just gives you the blue print.SallyG @ Mon Jan 22, 2007 3:16 pm wrote:You are absolutely correct! It's not a choice. My #2 son is gay, and looking back, I can see that he was always that way. He's also intelligent, well educated, well traveled, extremely talented, and very successful at 25 years of age. The perfect son!Smudgeman @ Mon Jan 22, 2007 10:30 am wrote:I like you too, Snokkums, that is not the issue. So, I guess if I read the Bible all the way through, I will miraculously be straight? I didn't wake up one day and say, "I think I will be Gay". I was born this way, I didn't choose it.
Suicide is painless It brings on many changes and I will take my leave when I please.
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Yes, you are authorized to do all that according to Leviticus. If you are correctly reading it in the original to avoid any translation errors.bobarth @ Mon Jan 22, 2007 2:55 pm wrote:Snookums,snokkums @ Mon Jan 22, 2007 6:35 am wrote:Yes it is a choice or a lifestyle. Read your Bible.Smudgeman @ Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:18 am wrote: Where are you getting your information from? There have always been and will always be Gay people in this world. It is not a choice or a deviant lifestyle. Perhaps you should educate yourself.
In Leviticus 18 chapter 18 22
"You shall not lie with man as with a woman: it is an abomination." So, you made the choice to be that way.
But I dont care which way you. That's your business, not mine.
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal. and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.
I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.
a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?
g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?
i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
Sometimes to point out absurdity one must be absurd.
#A First ask your lawyer to file a show cause order, this usually works. Why would anyone object to a barbecue?
#B A fair price is defined as one that a willing buyer will offer knowing the value of the item, and is acceptablle to the seller. See your Legal Dictionary on this. State laws vary, check with your lawyer.
#C You just lift her garments to check. Be sure you have advice on this from your lawyer.
#D Your friend is wrong. This applies to Canadians as well. But Canadians have a higher gun ownership rate than America, so you must take care. Mexicans are disarmed and oppressed. Those pesky Border Patrol men may interfere, so take your lawyer with you. Canadian Law treats slave-takers like vermin: there is an open season, no tagging or bag limit.
#E Probably, but first check with your local police to see if this is against zoning regulations.
#F It isn't just shellfish (they eat carrion), but all fish that lack gills, scales and fins. If in doubt, check with the Game Warden.
#G No wriggle room here. Trust me. But it may mean no contact lenses.
#H Let the barber report them to the proper authorities.
#I Absolutely NOT!!! Don't touch those live pigs either, there are laws against this, if I understand you. You'll wind up being mentioned on the Jay Leno show (like that guy in Wisconsin with the dead deer).
#J No, you must get the agreement of the society in which you live. There are a lot of pesky bleeding heart liberals you have to watch out for. Its best to let them appear on the Jerry Springer Show first.
Since state laws vary, I strongly urge you to get legal advice about this. If no lawyer is handy, just visit your local police station to discuss this with them, just in case.
I hope you have good medical insurance. If not, your local police will introduce you to two nice doctors who will talk to you and get treatment.
BTW, was this copied from somewhere? I've heard of this before on another site.
It was Farmer William in the Bedroom with the Hatchet.
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Re: Revised and modified version of theory: Was Andrew gay?
I strongly urge the Admisitratrix to verify your bonafides!rgreen4411 @ Mon Jan 08, 2007 7:32 pm wrote:Based upon the knowlegeable and constructive criticism received I have modified my theory.
...
If you are for real, a 90-day suspension will allow you time to do your homework before returning to this site.
It was Farmer William in the Bedroom with the Hatchet.
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Be very, very careful!!! An axe does more than chop wood, and the border is quite near.Yooper @ Mon Jan 22, 2007 4:08 pm wrote:Bobbie!! Does that mean I have to let my Canadians go free?? Who will shovel snow if I do that? I'll have no one to augur a hole for ice fishing! Who's gonna fetch da firewood? The entire U.P. will have to undergo a period of reconstruction! Thats it, I've had it! Where's my musket?
Floridians have an easier job in shovelling snow and drilling into ice. But I've never lived there.
It was Farmer William in the Bedroom with the Hatchet.
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You're right, we're liable to get an ore boat full of C-4 at an inopportune moment.RayS @ Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:47 pm wrote:Be very, very careful!!! An axe does more than chop wood, and the border is quite near.Yooper @ Mon Jan 22, 2007 4:08 pm wrote:Bobbie!! Does that mean I have to let my Canadians go free?? Who will shovel snow if I do that? I'll have no one to augur a hole for ice fishing! Who's gonna fetch da firewood? The entire U.P. will have to undergo a period of reconstruction! Thats it, I've had it! Where's my musket?
Floridians have an easier job in shovelling snow and drilling into ice. But I've never lived there.
![Shocked :shock:](./images/smilies/icon_eek.gif)
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