Kat @ Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:22 am wrote:I see no reason why Lizzie could not be outside and seen by Lubinsky and then instantly be inside and kill Andrew in 45 seconds or so. It's not like we have exact time of death in these killings, as you must agree, Ray.
Lubinsky's quick peek at a woman as he drove downhill with a fresh team means nothing.
You are 100% correct. But it does confirm her story about being outside at TOD, AND, limits the amount of time needed to hide a bloody dress and the murder weapon.
NO bloody clothes (blood spatter), no weapon found = proof of innocence. (This applied to Dr. Sam Sheppard, but also to Lizzie and OJ.) Rick Geary's book would be better if the back cover showed Dr. Sam Sheppard, not OJ. Dr. Sam was at the crime scene; OJ was picked up by the limo driver at 11pm and could not have done it. (The rich pay others to do their dirty work.)
It was Farmer William in the Bedroom with the Hatchet.
Kat @ Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:22 am wrote:I see no reason why Lizzie could not be outside and seen by Lubinsky and then instantly be inside and kill Andrew in 45 seconds or so. It's not like we have exact time of death in these killings, as you must agree, Ray.
Lubinsky's quick peek at a woman as he drove downhill with a fresh team means nothing.
You are 100% correct. But it does confirm her story about being outside at TOD, AND, limits the amount of time needed to hide a bloody dress and the murder weapon.
NO bloody clothes (blood spatter), no weapon found = proof of innocence. (This applied to Dr. Sam Sheppard, but also to Lizzie and OJ.) Rick Geary's book would be better if the back cover showed Dr. Sam Sheppard, not OJ. Dr. Sam was at the crime scene; OJ was picked up by the limo driver at 11pm and could not have done it. (The rich pay others to do their dirty work.)
It is possible that she was outside to hide the murder weapon which wouldn't limit the time necessary to complete the crime.
Also, Lizzie was in charge of calling out the alarm, plus it may not have been Lizzie outside- it was a Woman. I'm no longer relying on a *woman not Bridget* anymore either!
Hello, I am new, and am grateful to this forum as a place to share ideas about the case, and to the forum community for their gracious (for the most part) give and take on a fascinating and complex subject.
The point I am about to make probably belongs in its own thread of "Poison" but the discussion on this thread came very close to what I want I have been thinking, and then backed away, so I am including it here.
Back to poison and frame of mind.
Members of the household had been vommiting for a couple of days. Lizzie wants to use that as a cover to poison Abby, at least. Not sure if her intent at the time was to kill Andrew, but that is a side argument. Elderly people can and do die from complications of food poisoning. Lizzie's best hope was that Abby (and possibly Andrew) would die and the cause would be chalked up to food poisoning.
She is denied the quick-acting prussic acid. She hears about Abby going to Dr. Bowen with her fears about poisoning. She confides in Alice that she, too, is afraid of enemies and poison, as a way to misdirect future blame. I'm not sure if at that point she knows it's all going to culminate the next day. I think she is laying the groundwork.
Back to Dr. Bowen. I would like to know more about him, as there are several instances of his suspicious behavior, not as a potential suspect, but perhaps an accessory after the fact, who simply could not believe that Lizzie had done this and wanted to help her.
At any rate, in the Witness Statements by compiled by Stefani, on page 19, Doherty/Harrington say
"Dr. Bowen stopped me on the street, and was very anxious to know what Mr. Knowlton meant when be (sic) referred to having to found another agent of death. He was very nervous when talking of this (sic) I told him I did not recollect od any such statement in his plea." It looks like this took place on Sept. 25, 1892.
I interpret "agent of death" as "cause of death" and in the sense that Dr. Bowen had heard that Knowlton was saying that poison had been detected in the victims' tissues after all. Of course, I am not saying that Dr. Bowen or anyone else was saying the ultimate cause of death was poison.
Why would he be nervous? As someone said earlier, it would look pretty bad for him as the Borden family doctor if it became known that poison was found, and yet he told Abby there was nothing to worry about - just take some castor oil.
Nevermind that he appeared to be concerned enough to check back at the house later, on his own volition, only to be rudely turned away by Andrew. If he was worried on Sept. 25 that evidence of poison had been found, he might be blamed for taking no action when Abby came to him.
I agree that Bowen does have some suspicious or at least unusual behavior and nobody was allowed such free and unsupervised access to Lizzie on the day of the murder- even with Alice cozily installed there in the house. He was early on the scene, and had some great opportunities of observing and altering the crime scene before the police were hard on the trail. There was a breath of scandal about Bowen once escorting Lizzie to church unchaperoned whilst the family was away. It all may have been innocent, but stranger things have happened than an older man being very sympathetic to a young, unhappy woman who had finiancial expectations, and who was not unattractive to look at.
Yes, salmonella or bottulism is deadly often to the geriatric set. I am always amused that poor Abby, sick as she had been, managed to gobble down a pork steak Wednesday morning after being sick. She obviously liked her food- and knowing that fact would have been a plus if someone were going to try the food-poisoning approach.
Much has been made of Lizzie's two trips to the cellar Thursday night- once with her slop pail. Just maybe there was some food stuff, meat, or something she knew was "tainted" that she had to dispose of so the police would not find it. What better place than down the toilet? The baker's bread and milk were tested with negative result- but other things were present and eaten. Abby mentioned the baker's bread to Bowen Wednesday morning and Lizzie mentioned the milk Wednesday night- so not surprisingly no type of poison was found there. Food for thought (pun intended)
I sort of like Lizzie for a poisoning- but if so, I don't think she would switch to a hatchet.
So I tend to feel that if she was a poisoner, she would stick to that method. That would mean to me that someone else killed with a hatchet.
Now, as for Emma, I like her a bit better as a poisoner. Maybe Emma started something and then left- and Lizzie tried to finish it.
The thing is, poisoners like to watch, or imagine the horrible effects. They enjoy the poisoning- it gives them power and control- I think they'd stick around for the results. So I am torn between the girls. I think Emma has the quiet, secretive nature of a poisoner but yet she was gone....Lizzie supposedly has a more forthright approach to problems, like snubbing people- to their face- that sounds more like a hatchet girl to me...
As for testing the food:
Wood
Trial
A. Yes, sir. I opened the box and found in it four preserve jars, one of which was labeled, "milk of August 3rd, 1892;", the other, the second, was labelled "milk of August 4th, 1892;" [etc...]
.....
Q. In other words you found no evidence ---
A. I found no evidence of poison of any kind.
Q. Of any kind whatever?
A. In either case. Both jars of milk were also tested in the same way, and without obtaining any evidence of any poison in either the milk of August 3 or the milk of August 4.
Q. In neither?
A. The milk apparently, I should say, so far as
Page 995
I could determine from seeing it in the bottle, was apparently in good condition, but no regular sanitary analysis of it could be made; it was so old at the time I received it.
_____
The milk that was tested was the wrong milk. The right milk would have been from the 2nd, Tuesday, for the Bordens to have reacted to the milk on Tuesday night into Wednesday morning.
I don't find that Wood tested the bread at all.
But anyway, he says there was no poison.
And I want to know what kinds of poison was tested for. Did they test for the types of microbes for samonella and bottulism- and in the case of stomach contents, what other poisons besides Prussic Acid- what else was checked? I should think these records should still be in existence somewhere from the Harvard lab.
I have never been satisfied that the test run on the food or the stomach contents was comprehensive. Naturally there was no Prussic Acid- she could not obtain any. But the cornucopia of poison is vast, and I suspect tests were not terribly sophisticated. There was a good test for arsenic poisoning however as it was the popular Victorian poison du jour . The test , I saw recently on TV, is still used in detecting arsenic.
Yes, I agree poison is the woman's way- and I think after Abby had blown the whistle to Bowen, the poisoner panicked. I would imagine Abby and Andrew did not take going over to a doctor lightly- and Andrew, as sick as he was did not go over himself. I think Abby was pretty sick that day. I also found it interesting that Lizzie scooted up the stairs when Bowen made his little house call later Wednesday. One would think if Lizzie had truly been ill herself- so ill that she says she never came down all day, then ate nothing Thursday, told Abby Thursday morning she wanted no meat and nothing much for lunch- SHE would have wanted a word with Dr. Bowen Wednesday morning about her own health. Distinctly odd.
Here's Prof. Wood's Preliminary testimony regarding his test for poison (p371):
"Q. When you say "apple", you mean some fruit of that kind. Did you find any trace of any poison in either stomach?
A. I tested Mr. Borden's stomach also for prussic acid, with a negative result. There was no evidence of any irritant poison having been in the stomach at all, no irritation. There is no other ordinary poison which would prove fatal immediately; that was the only one I considered it necessary to test for, under the circumstances."
He gives slightly different testimony at the Trial (p994+)
Q. That stomach [Andrew's] had not been opened?
A. That stomach had not been opened. It was in the same external condition as the stomach of Mrs. Borden. Both of those contents of the stomachs were immediately tested for prussic acid, because prussic acid, being a volatile acid, it is necessary to make an immediate test for it, as it would very shortly after its exposure to the air escape, and escape detection therefore. Therefore those were both tested for prussic acid, with a negative result. Afterwards they were analyzed in the regular way for the irritant poisons, with also a negative result. Q. In other words you found no evidence ---
A. I found no evidence of poison of any kind.
Q. Of any kind whatever?
A. In either case. Both jars of milk were also tested in the same way, and without obtaining any evidence of any poison in either the milk of August 3 or the milk of August 4.
Q. In neither?
A. The milk apparently, I should say, so far as I could determine from seeing it in the bottle, was apparently in good condition, but no regular sanitary analysis of it could be made; it was so old at the time I received it.
Q. In neither the stomach of Mrs. Borden nor Mr. Borden, in neither of them, you found nothing that indicated anything abnormal or irregular in the process of digestion?
A. No, sir."
I know I ask perfection of a quite imperfect world
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
Thanks for digging that our Harry. Yes, irritant poisons- caustic action would show on the tissues at a glance. But Wood says " Afterwards they were analyzed in the regular way for the irritant poisons, with also a negative result. " Then he covers his bases by stating "I found no evidence of poison of any kind." Which I think skirts the issue- there are poisons other than irritant poisons. I don't think all manner of possibilities were on the tests and Wood was doing some hasty damage control to protect his reputation.
I recall seeing some hair samples at the FRHS- maybe this was done after all. Arsenic leaves deposits. This study on poisons (link below) was done in 1931, and Bowen was using the tried and true regime for poisons ingested, by giving Abby Castor oil- an emetic. http://botanical.com/botanical/steapois/poisonix.html
At the 1992 Centennial conference, the PHd from Harvard gave a great lecture on the various types of poisons and effects including Prussic Acid- which as a hydrocyanic acid- would have been very fast -acting.
It is scary to know just how much around us daily is poisonous- the deterrmining factor between safe and toxic being merely the dosage.
The signs and symptoms vary with dose and rate of exposure. Anxiety, excitement, rapid breathing, faintness, flushing, headache, nausea, drowsiness and coma may be seen. In homocidal poisoning the fatal dose and rate of exposure mean that many of these symptoms are not seen due to the rapid onset of coma and death which can be in as little as 30 seconds.
I am puzzled about the story re Lizzie's book being left open in the house to the poison page. Is that true, or is it something someone wrote to embellish the story?
Angel @ Mon Feb 05, 2007 12:04 pm wrote:I am puzzled about the story re Lizzie's book being left open in the house to the poison page. Is that true, or is it something someone wrote to embellish the story?
YES!
Like all Legends of Lizzie, it lacks time, date, and written documentation by the observer.
It was Farmer William in the Bedroom with the Hatchet.
Angel @ Mon Feb 05, 2007 9:04 am wrote:I am puzzled about the story re Lizzie's book being left open in the house to the poison page. Is that true, or is it something someone wrote to embellish the story?
Ellen, its in Victoria Lincoln's book, A Private Disgrace, I don't recall seeing it in any other book. Page 62:
Had Mrs. Borden simply felt hate in the air? When Hosea Knowlton, the District Attorney, first entered that house, his eye fell on a book lying on one of the small draped tables in the sitting room. A reader, as the Bordens were not, he picked it up idly. It was a book of household hints; its spine was broken and it fell open at a section on poisons, in fact at an article on prussic acid. Prussic acid works instantaneously and smells like almonds. Lizzie, as we shall see presently, was in no state to cover her tracks just then. Possibly Mrs. Borden, at her daily dusting, had noticed that her book of household hints had a broken spine.
So, take it for what its worth. If anyone has the Knowlton papers, perhaps they can check in there to see if there is anything at all in there where he mentions finding any book.
“Sometimes when we are generous in small, barely detectable ways it can change someone else's life forever.”-Margaret Cho comedienne
My point is that the milk and the bread mentioned earlier, were not part of any evidence in testing for poison- the milk being from the wrong day and the bread not tested at all.
Other than that, yes I have studied many cases of murders by poisons and find that there are/were vegetable poisons for which there were no tests at that time. I've posted extensively from my own books on the subject in the last years. There certainly could be poisons not tested for, but if there was no irritation around the face there probably was not chloroform used, and something ingested might show irritation of the stomach, which was looked for (as a simple *test.* )
The broken spine story originated with Pearson. Susan, I didn't realize that Lincoln used that! Thanks for the info!
Pearson, Edmund. Five Murders, With A Final Note On The Borden Case, Doubleday, Doran & Company, Inc., Garden City, New York, 1928, Chapter titled "A Postscript: The End of the Borden Case," 263+.
"One of the attorneys, on entering the Borden house for the first time, found a book of recipes and prescriptions. He took it up, and it fell open in his hand - at a passage devoted to the subject of prussic acid. It is also said that there was evidence of an earlier attempt to procure this poison, earlier than the one made in Fall River the day before the murders. This one took place in New Bedford, and here again the clerk in the pharmacy identified Miss Lizzie as the applicant." (282)
Yes, Lizzie said, a few times, that she had stayed in her room all day. But apparently Lizzie did come down.
Inquest
Lizzie Q. Where were you on Wednesday morning that you remember?
A. At home.
Q. All the time?
A. All day, until Wednesday night.
Q. Nobody there but your parents and yourself and the servant?
A. Why, Mr. Morse came sometime in the afternoon, or at noon time, I suppose, I did not see him.
Q. He did not come so to see you?
A. No, sir, I did not see him.
Q. He did not come until afternoon anyway, did he?
A. I don't think he did; I am not sure.
Q. Did you dine with the family that day?
A. I was down stairs, yes, sir. I did not eat any breakfast with them.
---Then, when we look at what Bridget recalls about Lizzie being downstairs Wednesday, notice the timing. Also, I'm not saying Lizzie ate, because I don't know.
Bridget
Prelim Q. She looked sick, did she not?
Page 211 (52)
A. I did not notice. She told me she was sick that morning.
Q. When did she tell you she was sick?
A. Wednesday morning.
...
Q. Lizzie stayed in her room all that forenoon, did not she?
A. I suppose so; I did not see her until she came to dinner.
Q. You knew she was up stairs. They were all sick and ailing that day?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. She did not go out at all that day, did she, so far as you know?
A. Miss Lizzie? I did not see her.
Q. So far as you know she did not go out?
A. I could not say whether she went out or not.
Q. That Wednesday morning they came down and had all been sick during the night?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. They had breakfast, and they looked pretty badly, or rather Mr. and Mrs. Borden did?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. And Lizzie complained?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. They ate a little breakfast, and Lizzie went back up stairs to her room?
A. I suppose so. She went out of my sight, I do not know where she went.
--These times, at breakfast and dinner, that it seems Lizzie did come down, whether she ate or not, could be to establish an alibi for the Eli Bence I.D. (and testimony). Except that Bence was not sure of the exact time the woman he said was Lizzie came in that Wednesday morning.
Thanks for the Pearson info, Kat, I don't think I have read that book of his. Interesting how it went from just "one of the attorneys" to Knowlton, I guess thats how the myths grow. So, if there was even a grain of truth to the story, it could have been one of Lizzie's own defense attorneys that opened the book, but, how would Pearson ever hear of it?
“Sometimes when we are generous in small, barely detectable ways it can change someone else's life forever.”-Margaret Cho comedienne
Is it not true Andrew was such a miser he made the family eat leftovers for breakfast? Eating the spoiled mutton was the last straw which may have motivated Lizzie to kill? Once the inheiritance was hers she could live in the style of other wealthy people.
For God so loved the world He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16
Oh many people, over the years, have jokingly said the motive for murder was mutton.
I suspected Lizzie did come down Wednesday to use her toilet down in the basement. What amazes me about these Bordens is that no matter how sick they were, they still made heroic attempts to peck at nourishment.
Castor oil is a laxative not an emetic. An emetic causes people to vomit. If Abby was using castor oil the passage of food through her stomach would have been accelerated, thus altering the estimated time of death.
For God so loved the world He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16
rgreen4411 @ Tue Feb 06, 2007 6:59 pm wrote:Castor oil is a laxative not an emetic. An emetic causes people to vomit. If Abby was using castor oil the passage of food through her stomach would have been accelerated, thus altering the estimated time of death.
Inquest testimony of Dr. Seabury Bowen page 116:
Q. Do you recollect what it was you prescribed for her?
A. I told her to take some castor oil, with a little port wine to take the taste off, and probably that would be all she would want...
Castor oil does indeed speed up the passage of food moving through the digestive tract. Interesting stuff. I had not considered this before.
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Not to be unduly argumentative, but castor oil is a laxative and also an emetic - I checked several medical books to confirm this before I posted it.
"The greenish extract of a large tropical plant, castor oil has been used for many years to ease constipation and induce vomiting"
This was of especial interest to me in regards to the many discussion we have had on poison. Castor oil had so many uses externally as well-as lubricant for skin, burns and abrasions, and even used to promote childbirth in a "midwife cocktail". Today Syrup of Ipecac is the most common medicine cabinet emetic for bringing up non-caustic poisons- and it is nasty nasty stuff as I learned from personal experience- it works in about 3 minutes.
Well since Lizzie rarely seemed to eat with the family, her coming down to breakfast and dinner (noon meal) on Wednesday screams alibi to me.
Bence said the woman was in the drug store somewhere between 10 am and 11:30.
If breakfast was usually around 7 or 7:30 am, and dinner at noon, and Bridget says she doesn't know where Lizzie was in the meantime, it's interesting that Lizzie could have come to the table to be seen, and still not have proof of where she was between 10 and 11:30 am, Wednesday. I think it's interesting.
~ ~ ~ ~
Edit here: To add that Lizzie also appeared at supper Wednesday. That is 3 main meals.
Bridget
Prelim
53
Q. What did you have for supper? [Wednesday]
A. Some soup warmed over.
Q. This same soup warmed over?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Whatelse?
A. Some bread, and cake and cookies, and tea.
Q. Where they all there to supper.
A. Mrs. Borden, Miss Lizzie and Mr. Borden.
I don't know when that would be. She was at Alice Russell's until 9 ish
Inquest
Lizzie
81(38)
Q. Do you remember who was at dinner the day before?
A. No sir, I don't remember, because I don't know whether I was down myself or not.
Q. Were you at tea Wednesday night?
A. I went down, but I think, I don't know, whether I had any tea or not.
Q. Did you sit down with the family?
A. I think I did, but I am not sure.
Q. Was Mr. Morse there?
A. No sir, I did not see him.
Q. Who were there to tea?
A. Nobody.
Q. The family were there, I suppose?
A. Yes, sir; I mean nobody but the family.
Thank you, Shelley, for correcting me. Medscape.com used by doctors and pharmacists does indeed classify castor oil as an irritant laxative and a cathartic. Interestingly it is used pre-operatively and must not be very effecitive in producing vomiting or it would be a very unpopular medicine. See Medscape info pasted below:
Monograph - Castor Oil
Class: Cathartics and Laxatives General Statement
Sections: Dosage and Administration | Pharmacokinetics | Chemistry and Stability | Preparations
Castor oil, a stimulant laxative, is a fixed oil obtained from the seeds of Ricinus communis.
Dosage and Administration
•Administration
Castor oil is administered orally. Emulsions or aromatic preparations somewhat mask the disagreeable taste of castor oil. Containers of castor oil emulsion should be shaken before using, and the emulsion may be mixed with 120–240 mL of water, milk, fruit juice, or soft drink before administration.
•Dosage
The usual adult dose of castor oil for constipation is 15 mL; however, castor oil usually should be reserved for total colonic evacuation, such as prior to surgery or radiologic, sigmoidoscopic, or proctoscopic procedures. For these purposes, the usual dose of castor oil is 15–60 mL for adults and children 12 years of age and older, 5–15 mL for children 2–11 years of age, or 1–5 mL for children younger than 2 years of age, administered as a single dose about 16 hours before the surgery or procedure. To prepare for colonic surgery or radiologic, sigmoidoscopic, or proctoscopic procedures, the patient should receive a residue-free diet one day before the surgery or procedure and a cleansing rectal enema (e.g., tap water, soap suds, saline laxative, bisacodyl) on the day of the examination.
For God so loved the world He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16
I called three of the local pharmacies in my area and asked the pharmicists there about castor oil and it's effects. All three pharmacists classified it as an over the counter lubricant laxative. I asked about it's emetic effects on the user next. I was told the vomiting was only considered a side effect for certain patients with weak stomachs who could not handle the oily liquid laying in their stomach. I asked about how long it took for the castor oil to take effect and was unanimously told that it varies from patient to patient, but that it is meant to flush out the system. I was slightly embarrassed because I was told by one pharmacist if my problem was severe enough I might consider using an enema instead. I guess I hadn't explained the purpose of my call to the woman.
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche
As in all aspects of examing this case- one must consider the era, the 1892 mindset for much of it to make sense. Bowen would be practicing 1892 medicine with all the flaws inherent to the time. Victorians were obsessed with their bowels, regularity, self-dosing, purging, -and other bodily emissions. Some sources I have consulted on castor oil as an emetic are from vintage reference books on the topic, including several home remedy books so popularly kept by house wives of the period. Castor oil was given often as a daily tonic to promote regularity- yes, right up until the 1950's in fact when extract of prunes and figs became the new daily dose rage for over-the-counter.
What is important is that Bowen obviously felt whatever was in Abby's stomach and intestines needed to come out- be it due to food-poisoning or poison. It either had to come out one end or another- castor oil was effective for one "end" and often for the other"end". Syrup of Ipecac is the current emetic du jour for today's physicians to bring up stomach contents quickly when the ingested material is non-caustic.
There are any number of contemporary sources online and in desktop pharmaceuticals which will say that the primary benefit of castor oil is a laxative effect, -and any number of Victorian medical resources which will also say it is an emetic. It is , I think more interesting to know that Andrew, spared himself the cost, drank Garfield tea, which, among its other touted benefits, contained white sage- which was a remedy for diarrhea. I have seen a box of Garfield tea and it says so right on the back of the box. So while Abby was urged to purge, Andy was trying to "bind up".
By the way, that is a very good point about Lizzie appearing at all meals, Kat. In most poison cases, the poisoner is usually smart enough to eat a little of the tainted food, or at least appear to eat it at the same time as the intended victims.
I can't think of any famous cases where the poisoner ate with the victim whilst they were being poisoned, except in the Armstrong case.
He got really really bold tho.
(buttered scones and the famous line "Excuse fingers.")--Crimes and Punishment, the Illustrated Crime Encyclopedia, Vol 16, pg. 1913.
I was thinking along the lines of an alibi for the prussic acid incident- or maybe she really was not there at Bence's store that morning?
With Emma being away, I can't know what Lizzie's motive was for coming to meals on Wednesday.
I suppose there are successful poisoners out there that we never heard of who possibly ate with their victims. If they *got away with it* we would not hear about it.
But of those who have been caught and tried, I don't recall that.
Madeleine Smith- "not proven"- arsenic in her fellow's cocoa
Florence Maybrick- guilty- He took strychnine and arsenic himself but she was found to have provided the lethal dose in his personally provided bottle.
Madame la Farge- guilty- arsenic in a cake she sent
Neil Cream- guilty- strychnine in pills given to prostitutes
Adelaide Bartlett- not guilty- chloroforming her husband
Madame de Brinvilliers- poisoned wine she took to hospital patients to test her dosages and skill
Nurses and doctors who have poisoned their patients, or just any patient.
All of the above, except for Neil Cream and my allusion to *various doctors and nurses*- to refresh my memory- comes from: The Mammoth Book of Killer Women Edited by Richard Glyn Jones, Carroll & Graf, NY, 1993.
Kat @ Thu Feb 08, 2007 8:19 am wrote:BTW: a poisoner is a sadist - cruel and narcissistic.
I don't know if that sounds like Lizzie?
I don't know if that is true in every case. Most poisoners are female, or so I read. The trick in poisoning is that the victim may not be correctly diagnosed (he was sick, we expected it), and has an alibi. Unless it is a spouse or friend or relative. Usually the insurance policy is the main clue.
See the case of William Palmer in 1850 England.
It was Farmer William in the Bedroom with the Hatchet.
Allen @ Wed Feb 07, 2007 11:15 am wrote:I called three of the local pharmacies in my area and asked the pharmicists there about castor oil and it's effects. All three pharmacists classified it as an over the counter lubricant laxative. I asked about it's emetic effects on the user next. I was told the vomiting was only considered a side effect for certain patients with weak stomachs who could not handle the oily liquid laying in their stomach. I asked about how long it took for the castor oil to take effect and was unanimously told that it varies from patient to patient, but that it is meant to flush out the system. I was slightly embarrassed because I was told by one pharmacist if my problem was severe enough I might consider using an enema instead. I guess I hadn't explained the purpose of my call to the woman.
I hope nothing bad happens. If someone close to you gets sick and dies, a police investigation could turn up some things that you would have to explain.
"Do you expect the jury to believe your interest in poisons is due to an Internet site devoted to a notorious murderess?"
It was Farmer William in the Bedroom with the Hatchet.
I think it's cool you called around, Missy!
I also think pharmacists are really good and reliable sources for information. They have to continually update their training and information.
I poisoned my family once about 10 years ago. Our tradition for 20 years, since my husband and I were married, was a chicken Kiev dinner on Chirstmas Eve, followed by chocolate mousse for dessert. My recipe calls for raw egg. We ate the mousse about 8 p.m. Dec. 24.
The three children fell first (ages 5 to 15) with vomitting and diarreah, within minutes of each other almost exactly 24 hours after they ate the mousse. Within a couple of hours the adults were stricken, but with less severe symptoms. It lasted about 12 hours. The only person to escape illness was our exchange student from Azerbaijan, who told us they eat raw eggs all the time. He didn't have so much as a tummy ache.
The next year I switched to pasteurized eggs, and now I make an eggless mousse.
My kids still talk about the Christmas I poisoned the family.
I can't escape the thought that Lizzie had been thinking how she would get rid of Abby for a long time. I haven't run across yet what others think "summer complaint" may have been, but there are several food-borne illnesses, including Norwalk virus (2-3 days of vomiting, diarrhea and headache - also low-grade fever). It is connected to poor hygeine - contamination from feces to food that is then consumed.
Salmonella (in some raw egg) is bacterial, and the symptoms are similar. Onset is 5 to 72 hours after consumption, because the bacteria is making a toxin. Diarrhea can last 1 to 3 days.
I have to wonder if Lizzie tried for the prussic acid because it would have provided perfect cover if Abby had already been sick.
I wish we had some idea how Abby came to think she was being poisoned. Surely in her long life and in those less-than-sanitary conditions, she had encountered illness like this before? Perhaps, as some have said here, we don't know for sure she meant deliberate poisoning. But Lizzie brought that up to Alice.
In some archived posts, members say that the same person who would poison is less likely to wield a hatchet. The whole stumbling block for me is how could a person do this to her family members and show no sign of emotional upset just moments later? I believe Lizzie spoke with Bridget and her father no more than an hour after she killed Abby, and she called for Bridget within a few minutes of killing Andrew.
For that matter, how could she go on and live a fairly normal life?
I don't think we will ever know, but the posts about psychology have been very interesting.
We have quoted somewhere here already the conversation Bowen said he had with Abby on Wednesday morning- about her tale of knowing someone who had been poisoned from cream cakes, and how he had assured her that if something was wrong with the baker's bread, more people than just she would have been ill. The way Bowen describes the interchange, it sounds like he thought she was referring to food-poisoning.
We only have his word for the conversation and maybe Abby was afraid and said more which Bowen chose not to tell later.
If Dr. Bowen had meant that "more people" would have become ill, and those people would be from other households, how did he know at that moment that other people weren't ill? I don't think he meant other people within the Borden household, clearly, Andrew was also ill.
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
Personally, before I felt I could comment on what was posted about Bowen, I would look it up and check- otherwise the conversation can go astray.
Like: was it Bowen who said that about the bread or was it Alice? Or was it milk and not bread?
I thought it was Lizzie who told Alice Wednesday night that Mrs. Borden thought the bread was poisoned- but she (Lizzie) opted for the milk which prompted that whole conversation with Alice asking what time the milk was delivered, someone would be seen on the side step as it was light at that hour, tampering with the can. . Then it was Abby Wednesday morning who mentioned to Bowen someone dying from cream cake which had gone "off". Bowen said to her that if the baker's bread was tainted, surely others would be sick also. I took that to mean other people who bought bread from the same baker.
"The day before, Wednesday morning, about eight o’clock, or before eight, Mrs. Borden came to the door and said she was frightened, said that she was afraid she was poisoned. I told her to come in. She sat down, and she said the night before about nine o’clock she and her husband commenced to vomit, and vomitted for two or three hours until twelve, I understood.
Q. What morning was this?
A. Wednesday morning. I asked her what she had eaten for supper, and she told me. She said she had eaten some baker’s white bread, and she had heard of baker’s cream cakes being poisonous, and was afraid there was something poisonous in the bread that made her vomit. " (Bowen Inquest)
"She [Lizzie] said, "Mr. and Mrs. Borden were awfully sick last night." And I said, "Why, what is the matter; something they have eaten?" She said, "We were all sick," she said, "all but Maggie." And I said, "Something you think you have eaten?" She said, "We don't know. We had some baker's bread, and all ate of it but Maggie, and Maggie wasn't sick." And I said, "Well, it couldn't have been the bread; if it had been baker's bread I should suppose other people would be sick, and I haven't heard of anybody." And she says, "That is so." (Alice Russell, Trial.)
According to Alice, Lizzie then went on to say she sometimes thought the milk was poisoned but Alice reassures her that the milk comes too early -- there is no one around at that time and if something was done at the dairy, the farmer would see it.
From this it seems as though it is Alice Russell who who suggests others would be sick if it was the baker's bread. Lizzie brings milk into the equation, although in a general way -- not necessarily in regard to this particular illness. She seems inclined to place the blame for the previous night's illness on the bread by saying Maggie is the only one who didn't eat the bread and she wasn't sick. (At the Preliminary Hearing, Bridget testified that she didn't eat the baker's bread.)
Thanks for digging that out. But I seem to remember Alice asking Lizzie what time the milk came to the house and Lizzie said 4 or 5 a.m. and Alice said it was light then, and someone could see anyone tampering with it. Can you find that part?
The timeline of the milk delivery is described at page 376-77, first volume of the trial transcript - should be Alice on the stand I believe, as she goes thru in essence what was said regarding the milk. Lizzie put the time of delivery at "about four o'clock" per the testimony. See the very bottom of pg. 376 for that quote on the time.
I staid the night for shelter at a farm behind the mountains, with a mother and son - two "old-believers." They did all the talking...
- Robert Frost
Here's the part you refer to, Shelley. As Doug says, it's on the bottom of page 376 of the trial. Alice testifying re her conversation with Lizzie on the night preceding the murders:
"... And she says, "Sometimes I think our milk might be poisoned." And I said, "Well, how do you get your milk; how could it be poisoned?" And she said, "We have the milk come in a can and set on the step, and we have an empty can. They put out the empty can overnight, and the next morning when they bring the milk they take the empty can." And I said, "Well, if they put anything in the can the farmer would see it." And then I said---I asked her what time the milk came, if she knew. She said, "I think about four o'clock." And I said, "Well, it is light at four. I shouldn't think anybody would dare to come then and tamper with the cans for fear somebody would see them." And she said, "I shouldn't think so." And she said, "They were awfully sick; and I wasn't sick, I didn't vomit; but I heard them vomiting and stepped to the door and asked if I could do anything, and they said No."
It is different than what she wrote in her letter to Knowlton on June 2, 1893 (page 227, HK212):
"... Later on she said "father and Mrs. Borden were awfully sick last night. I was too, but not as sick as they were, for I did not vomit and they did. I
could hear them in my room. I asked them if I could do anything for
them but they said no." I asked Lizzie if she thought it was any thing they
had eaten, she said "we don't know, we had some baker's bread for sup-
per and all ate some of it but Maggie, and all were sick but her. Don't
know whether it was the bread or what it was." I said if it was the bread I
should think that other people would be sick too. She went on to say that
she had thought perhaps the milk had been poisoned. I asked her about
the milk, how it was brought etc. She told me that they put out an empty
can overnight. The milkman took it in the morning when he brought the
milk. I asked her what time he came. She said "she thought about 4
o'clock." I said it is light at four, and I shouldn't think anyone would
dare to come in and do anything to the can, for someone would be liable
to see them. She said "I shouldn't think so."
I know I ask perfection of a quite imperfect world
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
Thanks, Doug and Harry. I'd forgotten the part about Alice saying it would have been light -- I'd remembered her suggesting no one would tamper with the milk -- but I'd remembered it as being because it was too early, not too light. I should have checked before I posted.
So if you just read the trial testimony it could seem that Lizzie was speaking more generally about the milk being poisoned because Alice has Lizzie say: "Sometimes I think our milk might be poisoned."
But you're right, Shelley -- in her letter to Knowlton Alice makes it look more like Lizzie is not sure if the illness on that particular night was because of the bread or the milk.
I guess I hadn't explained the purpose of my call to the woman.
