Durfee? Gray?
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- Kat
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Durfee? Gray?
We're going to have to do a genealogy of the Durfee connection to Borden and Abby's connection to Durfee in particular.
And we're going to have to do an Oliver Gray genealogy too, I think.
Anyone wish to start?
And we're going to have to do an Oliver Gray genealogy too, I think.
Anyone wish to start?
- joe
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- Kat
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I have a start on some Borden/Durfee unions.
Starting in the 6th generation:
Thomas and Richard are brothers.
Thomas went on to father Colonel Richard Borden, whereas his brother Richard went on to father Abraham Borden, Andrew's father.
Starting with Thomas: That line:
He married Mary Hathaway and they had 13 children.
Of those 13, 5 married DURFEEs.
These children and their spouses would be first cousins to Abraham Borden.
Phebe Borden (b. 12-22-1779) m. 2nd husband Bradford Durfee.
William Borden (b. 12-28-1781) m. Sarah Durfee (2-1814), daughter of Deacon Richard Durfee.
Isaac H. Borden (b. 3-7-1784) m. Lusannah Durfee, daughter of Deacon Richard Durfee.
Thomas Borden (b. 2-6-1786) m. first wife Lydia Durfee, daughter of Deacon Richard Durfee.
Richard Borden (b. 4-12-1795) m. Abby W. Durfee (2-22-1828). [Not identified as daughter of Deacon Richard Durfee].
Next generation, out of Colonel Richard Borden and his wife Abby W. Durfee (see above), there are 2 more Bordens marrying Durfees:
Edward P. Borden m. Margaret L. Durfee, 9-29-1863, daughter of Rev. Thomas Durfee.
Matthew C. D. Borden m. Hattie [Harriet M.] Durfee, 9-5-1865, daughter of Dr. Nathan Durfee.
These Borden/Durfees would be second cousin to Abraham, in the 9th generation.
Andrew Borden was 8th generation, and Emma & Lizzie Borden were 9th generation.
Because of the generation difference, there ia a "once removed" I believe.
Also, Out of Thomas Borden (where we started) there is Jefferson Borden (b. 2-3-1801) who married Susan E. Easton on 4-15-1828. They had 9 children in the 8th generation. Their daughter Eliza O. Borden m. George B. Durfee 12-6-1855, son of Matthew C. Durfee.
These are all of the Thomas Borden line, Abraham's uncle.
--The Genealogy Of The Borden Family Living In Fall River And Vicinity, 1876, Earl & Son, Fall River, MA., 1877.
Starting in the 6th generation:
Thomas and Richard are brothers.
Thomas went on to father Colonel Richard Borden, whereas his brother Richard went on to father Abraham Borden, Andrew's father.
Starting with Thomas: That line:
He married Mary Hathaway and they had 13 children.
Of those 13, 5 married DURFEEs.
These children and their spouses would be first cousins to Abraham Borden.
Phebe Borden (b. 12-22-1779) m. 2nd husband Bradford Durfee.
William Borden (b. 12-28-1781) m. Sarah Durfee (2-1814), daughter of Deacon Richard Durfee.
Isaac H. Borden (b. 3-7-1784) m. Lusannah Durfee, daughter of Deacon Richard Durfee.
Thomas Borden (b. 2-6-1786) m. first wife Lydia Durfee, daughter of Deacon Richard Durfee.
Richard Borden (b. 4-12-1795) m. Abby W. Durfee (2-22-1828). [Not identified as daughter of Deacon Richard Durfee].
Next generation, out of Colonel Richard Borden and his wife Abby W. Durfee (see above), there are 2 more Bordens marrying Durfees:
Edward P. Borden m. Margaret L. Durfee, 9-29-1863, daughter of Rev. Thomas Durfee.
Matthew C. D. Borden m. Hattie [Harriet M.] Durfee, 9-5-1865, daughter of Dr. Nathan Durfee.
These Borden/Durfees would be second cousin to Abraham, in the 9th generation.
Andrew Borden was 8th generation, and Emma & Lizzie Borden were 9th generation.
Because of the generation difference, there ia a "once removed" I believe.
Also, Out of Thomas Borden (where we started) there is Jefferson Borden (b. 2-3-1801) who married Susan E. Easton on 4-15-1828. They had 9 children in the 8th generation. Their daughter Eliza O. Borden m. George B. Durfee 12-6-1855, son of Matthew C. Durfee.
These are all of the Thomas Borden line, Abraham's uncle.
--The Genealogy Of The Borden Family Living In Fall River And Vicinity, 1876, Earl & Son, Fall River, MA., 1877.
- joe
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More Durfee?
KK, how much more can I add to what you've already done. Wouldn't it be great to do a TOTAL genealogy of the entire Borden/Durfee, etc. family? I have the software. I don't have any of the stuff we did last year, though. But you have. I had to dump my genealogy stuff when I left the library.
What all do you have?
What all do you have?
'97 Harley Road King with Gramma in the sidecar
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All that we see or seem is but a dream within a dream. ~ Edgar A. Poe
- nbcatlover
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I know there are at least 2 Gray genealogies.
One is
Gray Genealogy by M. D. Raymond, Tarrytown, NY, 1887, which is supposed to be descendents of Edward Gray of Yarmouth, MA.
There is also
Joshua Gray of Yarmouth, MA, and His Descendents by Julia Edgar Thatcher, privately printed, 1914.
I believe I looked at both of these at the New Bedford Public Library. I know there was an "Oliver Gray" in the Edward line prior to 1762.
One is
Gray Genealogy by M. D. Raymond, Tarrytown, NY, 1887, which is supposed to be descendents of Edward Gray of Yarmouth, MA.
There is also
Joshua Gray of Yarmouth, MA, and His Descendents by Julia Edgar Thatcher, privately printed, 1914.
I believe I looked at both of these at the New Bedford Public Library. I know there was an "Oliver Gray" in the Edward line prior to 1762.
- nbcatlover
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http://members.aol.com/pionear504/steph ... seven.html
I've had the Cory family suggested to me for links to Abby Durfee Gray's family.
I've had the Cory family suggested to me for links to Abby Durfee Gray's family.
- nbcatlover
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This Cory tree has 2 Abigail Durfee Gray's in it:
http://www.grandcestry.com/GedHTree/ghtout/gp1467.htm
http://www.grandcestry.com/GedHTree/ghtout/gp1467.htm
- joe
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I think the older one is wrong. There is an Abby Walker Durfee about that time. Methinks somebody didn't verify their input. But, who knows, there very well could have been two of them!!nbcatlover @ Tue May 30, 2006 4:27 pm wrote:This Cory tree has 2 Abigail Durfee Gray's in it:
http://www.grandcestry.com/GedHTree/ghtout/gp1467.htm
Joe
'97 Harley Road King with Gramma in the sidecar
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All that we see or seem is but a dream within a dream. ~ Edgar A. Poe
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All that we see or seem is but a dream within a dream. ~ Edgar A. Poe
- nbcatlover
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Found this version of Descendents of Edward Gray online:
http://www.antonymaitland.com/edwdgray.htm
I, too, have seen different Abigail middle names on different trees. I can never find Oliver Gray and Sarah Sawyer no matter whose line I follow.
http://www.antonymaitland.com/edwdgray.htm
I, too, have seen different Abigail middle names on different trees. I can never find Oliver Gray and Sarah Sawyer no matter whose line I follow.
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- nbcatlover
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http://www.antonymaitland.com/edwdgray.htm
This link is one of the most documented sites for the descendents of Edward Gray. Sometimes you'll come to a gray area and think it's the end. It's not. You'll reach references sources at the "end."
One of things about Gray genealogy is the need to go back to primary sources to see if there were any errors or omissions. There are tons of sources here.
I believe there is an "Ellery Gray" who is a possible lost link.
This link is one of the most documented sites for the descendents of Edward Gray. Sometimes you'll come to a gray area and think it's the end. It's not. You'll reach references sources at the "end."
One of things about Gray genealogy is the need to go back to primary sources to see if there were any errors or omissions. There are tons of sources here.
I believe there is an "Ellery Gray" who is a possible lost link.
- Kat
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I now have the Peck and Earl of 1877 from the FRHS and there is a Durfee tree in the back.
I've got these Grays so far:
pg. 264
John Durfee17 m. Phebe Gray 12-15-1757
________________
pg. 266
Samuel Durfee81
m.
Mercy Durfee daughter of Benjamin
^
Samuel93 b. 8-28-1747 m. Hannah NEGUS
(4th generation)
_______________
pg. 267
David Durfee106
m.
Mary Gifford daughter of Joseph of Portsmouth, R.I.
^
Elizabeth118 b. 5-23-1773 m. John Gray 5-12-1794
Mary120 b. 11-11-1778 m. Gideon Gray
(5th generation)
_____________
Pg. 271
Ann C. Durfee172
m.
Dr. Amory Glazier June 1811
^
Eliza A. m. Henry H. FISH
I've got these Grays so far:
pg. 264
John Durfee17 m. Phebe Gray 12-15-1757
________________
pg. 266
Samuel Durfee81
m.
Mercy Durfee daughter of Benjamin
^
Samuel93 b. 8-28-1747 m. Hannah NEGUS
(4th generation)
_______________
pg. 267
David Durfee106
m.
Mary Gifford daughter of Joseph of Portsmouth, R.I.
^
Elizabeth118 b. 5-23-1773 m. John Gray 5-12-1794
Mary120 b. 11-11-1778 m. Gideon Gray
(5th generation)
_____________
Pg. 271
Ann C. Durfee172
m.
Dr. Amory Glazier June 1811
^
Eliza A. m. Henry H. FISH
- Kat
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--nbcatloverI, too, have seen different Abigail middle names on different trees. I can never find Oliver Gray and Sarah Sawyer no matter whose line I follow.
I wonder if Charles Sawyer was related to Sarah Sawyer?
In 1892 he lived at 78 Second Street.
In the 1859 City Directory there are 3 Sawyers:
George B. and Seth B. Sawyer at 21 Tremont
and
Robert W. Sawyer at 120 Pleasant.
I wonder what that "B" middle initial stands for? Hmmm...
- nbcatlover
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Here's a good link for descendents of Thomas Durfee:
http://www.angelfire.com/sc2/bishopta/Durfee.htm
There are a heck of a lot of Durfee descendents named Davis whose lines weren't completed. It would be a great irony if the Dartmouth Davises with whom Morse stayed turned out to be related to the Durfees, especially with all the William Davis as murderer scenarios.
http://www.angelfire.com/sc2/bishopta/Durfee.htm
There are a heck of a lot of Durfee descendents named Davis whose lines weren't completed. It would be a great irony if the Dartmouth Davises with whom Morse stayed turned out to be related to the Durfees, especially with all the William Davis as murderer scenarios.
- nbcatlover
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Here's another source of early Durfee info.
Bruce Graham's site has a lot of probate references in it.
http://bruce.graham.free.fr/family/bgraham.html
Bruce Graham's site has a lot of probate references in it.
http://bruce.graham.free.fr/family/bgraham.html
- Allen
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From The New York Times April 28, 1878 "Fall River's Afflictions" Page 10.
" Up to the time of the civil war, the whole business of the town had been controlled and monopolized by the members of two families. The Borden's and the Durfee's, and their connections. The first of them to make money was Holder Borden. He grew rich by operating in cotton; lived and died a bachelor, leaving all his property to his three sisters, married to Dr. Nathan Durfee, Matthew Durfee, and Joseph Durfee (Nathan and Matthew being brothers and Joseph a distant relative.) who became wealthy by their wives inheritance. Col. Richard Borden and Jefferson Borden, brothers, were uncles of Holder Borden, and made fortunes in the Fall River Iron Works, by ownership of the wharves, interest in the railways, banks, and divers enterprises. S. Angier Chace, the defaulting Treasurer of the Union Mills, married Dr. Durfee's oldest daughter. and Joseph Durfee married, for his second wife, Chace's sister, who died, leaving one daughter; and she married Dr. Durfee's only son, Holder Borden Durfee, Treasurer of the Fall River Manufactory until requested to resign for lending $10,000 belonging to the manufactory, to his brother-in-law, uncle-in-law, &c., S. Angier Chace.
Dr. Durfee's second daughter married Col. Borden's fourth son, Matthew, (he has been president of the Merchantile Library, and is in business in your City.) and Durfee's niece was married to Col. Borden's son Edward. Major Durfee married for his first wife Dr. Durfee's mother-in-law, Mrs. Borden, when she was a widow. and he married for his second wife a Miss Mary Brayton. The sole product of the second marriage was B.M.C Durfee, who died several years ago, aged 25, leaving the largest estate here - valued at $4,000.000 or $5,000,000 = to his mother, as he died a bachelor without will. He had three uncles - John S. Brayton, Slade Brayton, and David Brayton - who grew rich from management of his estate during his minority. David Brayton's daughter Nannie was married to Jefferson Borden's youngest son, Norman, and in this way the two families have married back and forth, until nobody has, nor have they, any conception how they are related to one another. The connections of the Bordens and the Durfees are ten times as intricate as the most intricate Chinese puzzle, and any attempt to unravel them would be dangerous to one's sanity.
The Borden's and Durfee's owned and controlled the mills, wharves, the steamboats, the lines of railway, the banks, and the principle kinds of business, so that no one could get into or away from from the town, procure a loan, hire a house, buy or sell or make a trade, or do anything without contributing to the Borden - Durfee revenue. Fall River was in danger of dieing of Borden-Durfee plethorn, for any new movement or fresh enterprise was impossible without co-operation with some member or members of the eternal families. Business might have gone on overlastyingly in the old ruts if Charles Shove, Hale and Robert Remington, Stephen and William Davol, and others, who, by some mystery, chanced not to be linked matrimonially or otherwise with the Bordens and Durfees had not endeavored to achieve something outside, and independent of those widely pervading and generally-absorbing persons.
As an example of the Borden-Durfee permeation, let me give the organization, as it was a few years since, of the old companies:
The American Linen Company -President Jefferson Borden, Treasurer Walter Paine, 3d, (Borden's son-in-law) Directors, Jefferson Borden, Philip D. Borden (his nephew), Richard B. Borden (his nephew), George B. Durfee (his son- in -law and grand nephew) and Walter Paine, 3d, again.
American Print Works President, Jefferson Borden; Clerk, George B. Durfee; Treasurer, Thomas J. Borden ( another of Jefferson Borden's nephews) Directors, Thomas J. Borden, Jefferson Borden, Nathan Durfee (nephew by marriage), and George B. Durfee.
Masasoit Steam Mill President, Nathan Durfee; Clerk, Charles Durfee (Nathan Durfee's nephew ;) Treasurer, Holder Durfee Borden (Nathan Durfee's son;) Directors, Nathan Durfee, S. Angier Chace (Nathan Durfee's son-in-law,) and Holder B. Durfee.
....."
" Up to the time of the civil war, the whole business of the town had been controlled and monopolized by the members of two families. The Borden's and the Durfee's, and their connections. The first of them to make money was Holder Borden. He grew rich by operating in cotton; lived and died a bachelor, leaving all his property to his three sisters, married to Dr. Nathan Durfee, Matthew Durfee, and Joseph Durfee (Nathan and Matthew being brothers and Joseph a distant relative.) who became wealthy by their wives inheritance. Col. Richard Borden and Jefferson Borden, brothers, were uncles of Holder Borden, and made fortunes in the Fall River Iron Works, by ownership of the wharves, interest in the railways, banks, and divers enterprises. S. Angier Chace, the defaulting Treasurer of the Union Mills, married Dr. Durfee's oldest daughter. and Joseph Durfee married, for his second wife, Chace's sister, who died, leaving one daughter; and she married Dr. Durfee's only son, Holder Borden Durfee, Treasurer of the Fall River Manufactory until requested to resign for lending $10,000 belonging to the manufactory, to his brother-in-law, uncle-in-law, &c., S. Angier Chace.
Dr. Durfee's second daughter married Col. Borden's fourth son, Matthew, (he has been president of the Merchantile Library, and is in business in your City.) and Durfee's niece was married to Col. Borden's son Edward. Major Durfee married for his first wife Dr. Durfee's mother-in-law, Mrs. Borden, when she was a widow. and he married for his second wife a Miss Mary Brayton. The sole product of the second marriage was B.M.C Durfee, who died several years ago, aged 25, leaving the largest estate here - valued at $4,000.000 or $5,000,000 = to his mother, as he died a bachelor without will. He had three uncles - John S. Brayton, Slade Brayton, and David Brayton - who grew rich from management of his estate during his minority. David Brayton's daughter Nannie was married to Jefferson Borden's youngest son, Norman, and in this way the two families have married back and forth, until nobody has, nor have they, any conception how they are related to one another. The connections of the Bordens and the Durfees are ten times as intricate as the most intricate Chinese puzzle, and any attempt to unravel them would be dangerous to one's sanity.
The Borden's and Durfee's owned and controlled the mills, wharves, the steamboats, the lines of railway, the banks, and the principle kinds of business, so that no one could get into or away from from the town, procure a loan, hire a house, buy or sell or make a trade, or do anything without contributing to the Borden - Durfee revenue. Fall River was in danger of dieing of Borden-Durfee plethorn, for any new movement or fresh enterprise was impossible without co-operation with some member or members of the eternal families. Business might have gone on overlastyingly in the old ruts if Charles Shove, Hale and Robert Remington, Stephen and William Davol, and others, who, by some mystery, chanced not to be linked matrimonially or otherwise with the Bordens and Durfees had not endeavored to achieve something outside, and independent of those widely pervading and generally-absorbing persons.
As an example of the Borden-Durfee permeation, let me give the organization, as it was a few years since, of the old companies:
The American Linen Company -President Jefferson Borden, Treasurer Walter Paine, 3d, (Borden's son-in-law) Directors, Jefferson Borden, Philip D. Borden (his nephew), Richard B. Borden (his nephew), George B. Durfee (his son- in -law and grand nephew) and Walter Paine, 3d, again.
American Print Works President, Jefferson Borden; Clerk, George B. Durfee; Treasurer, Thomas J. Borden ( another of Jefferson Borden's nephews) Directors, Thomas J. Borden, Jefferson Borden, Nathan Durfee (nephew by marriage), and George B. Durfee.
Masasoit Steam Mill President, Nathan Durfee; Clerk, Charles Durfee (Nathan Durfee's nephew ;) Treasurer, Holder Durfee Borden (Nathan Durfee's son;) Directors, Nathan Durfee, S. Angier Chace (Nathan Durfee's son-in-law,) and Holder B. Durfee.
....."
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche
- Allen
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"Walter Paine Makes a Confession" Aug. 23, 1879 page 1 of NYT states that Walter Paine, 3d, made admissions that he drew finds out of the company ( American Linen Company) that were "more than his salary" starting in the year 1860. At one time he had funds out in the amount of about $34,000. George B. Durfee was also indicted for embezzling money from the company in the amount of about $3,500. District Att. Knowlton was in charge of the case. Paine allegedly fled to Cuba.
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche
- Kat
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Thanks for all the info and transcriptions, Missy!
When Mr. Caplain submittted his latest article, a *History of Fall River* to The Hatchet, I spent a month reading up on these families and even drew a few trees to keep things straight. The trees are like a timeline- they are so interesting!
I became somewhat familiar with this history you posted per NYTimes. It needs some checking and verification. But it's rather late for me to check it now.
When Mr. Caplain submittted his latest article, a *History of Fall River* to The Hatchet, I spent a month reading up on these families and even drew a few trees to keep things straight. The trees are like a timeline- they are so interesting!
I became somewhat familiar with this history you posted per NYTimes. It needs some checking and verification. But it's rather late for me to check it now.
- Allen
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I've always found it interesting that the name of the domestic which is listed as working for the Borden's in the 1860 census was Caroline T. Gray. She is listed as being born in Rhode Island, and was 19 at the time of the census. Oliver Gray was born in Tiverton Rhode Island, so we can safely assume that a branch of that Gray family was from that area. Is there some connection there?
Rebello page 23,
Oliver Gray, father of Abby Durfee Gray, was born in Tiverton Rhode Island, and died August 8, 1878, at the age of seventy seven. His first wife was Sarah Sawyer. She died December 22, 1860, at the age of 66. The marriage produced two children. "
Page 29, The Federal Census 1860,
Borden, Andrew J., age 37, male, cabinet dealer, real estate $5,300, personal estate $6,000, born in Massachusetts.
Borden, Sarah A., age 36, female, born in Massachusetts.
Borden, Emma L., age 9, female, born in Massachusetts.
Gray, Caroline T., age 19, domestic, born in Rhode Island.
Rebello page 23,
Oliver Gray, father of Abby Durfee Gray, was born in Tiverton Rhode Island, and died August 8, 1878, at the age of seventy seven. His first wife was Sarah Sawyer. She died December 22, 1860, at the age of 66. The marriage produced two children. "
Page 29, The Federal Census 1860,
Borden, Andrew J., age 37, male, cabinet dealer, real estate $5,300, personal estate $6,000, born in Massachusetts.
Borden, Sarah A., age 36, female, born in Massachusetts.
Borden, Emma L., age 9, female, born in Massachusetts.
Gray, Caroline T., age 19, domestic, born in Rhode Island.
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche
- Kat
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--from "Allen" from the NYTimesThe first of them to make money was Holder Borden. He grew rich by operating in cotton; lived and died a bachelor, leaving all his property to his three sisters, married to Dr. Nathan Durfee, Matthew Durfee, and Joseph Durfee (Nathan and Matthew being brothers and Joseph a distant relative.) who became wealthy by their wives inheritance.
From my research checking the article I mentioned, I found that Holder was worth about $400,000 when he died. His 3 sisters did benefit but so did his mother Phebe and her husband, Holder's stepfather Bradford Durfee.
It's possoble that it was split 4 ways, because Forbes (Rich Men of Massachusetts) stated that eventually 100,000 was in the hands of Bradford's second wife, Mary Brayton. Bradford died only 1 year after his re-marriage. That money passed to Mary and their son B.M.C. who was a month old when his father died.
- Kat
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The Rich Men of Massachusetts Containing a Statement of the Reputed Wealth of About Fifteen Hundred Persons With Brief Sketches of More than One Thousand Characters, by A. Forbes and J.W. Green, Boston, Published by W.V. Spencer, 16 State Street, 1851.
First part:
First part:
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
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- nbcatlover
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http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.anc ... ppgg01.htmDescendants of Philip Gray
1 Philip Gray 1750 - 1801
.. +Deborah Bailey 1751 - 1807
........ 2 Ellery Gray 1772 - 1858
............ +Rhoda Bailey
................... 3 Oliver Gray 1801 - 1878
....................... +Sarah Sawyer 1794 - 1860
............................. 4 Abby Durfee Gray 1827 - 1892
................................. +Andrew Jackson Borden 1822 - 1892
............................. 4 Priscilla Gray 1820 - 1894
................... *2nd Wife of Oliver Gray:
....................... +Jane D. Baker 1826 -
............................. 4 Lucy Gray 1852 -
............................. 4 Sarah Bertha Gray 1864 - 1941
There are sources to Ellery in the above link.
The marriage to Rhoda Bailey came from another source, at present, unverified. The continuation of the Bailey connection is a good probability with so much intermarriage between families. Joe Carlson had come up with the name Prudence Gray as a possible wife for Ellery, but the above source lists her as Ellery's sister.
Need more diggers for the Rhoda Bailey verification.
Deborah Bailey's parents are listed as John Bailey and Mary Wheaton.
- nbcatlover
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The above link doesn't seem to come up when entered in directly.
Do a Google engine search:
"ellery gray"+1801
It's the first link to appear.
On same search response, scroll down to 4th response (www.gausschildren.org). It is the source that cites the Rhoda Bailey name, but with no sources for name.
The Gauss site has some interesting connections with Durfees, Bordens, Buffingtons, and Robinsons (but not the missing cousin link).
Do a Google engine search:
"ellery gray"+1801
It's the first link to appear.
On same search response, scroll down to 4th response (www.gausschildren.org). It is the source that cites the Rhoda Bailey name, but with no sources for name.
The Gauss site has some interesting connections with Durfees, Bordens, Buffingtons, and Robinsons (but not the missing cousin link).
- Allen
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Re: Durfee? Gray?
This death record for Oliver Gray, born 1801 and dying August 8, 1878 at age 77, states that his mother's name was Prudence and his father's name was Ellery. I just like finding these old records. I know you guys already have this information but it's always neat to me to actually read the record.
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"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Re: Durfee? Gray?
The descendants of Thomas Durfee of Portsmouth, R.I: By William Field Reed, 1900.
http://books.google.com/books?id=kElKAA ... &q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=kElKAA ... &q&f=false
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche