A Stitch In Time...
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- Allen
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A Stitch In Time...
I think it's interesting to note that Sarah Borden, Lizzie's natural mother, was a seamstress when she and Andrew met. Did she teach Emma to sew? Did Emma in turn share some of this talent with Lizzie? The dress pattern mentioned in testimony which was bought by Lizzie during her stay in New Bedford has always intrigued me. Had she ever been planning to make a dress to be worn during the murders and then destroyed? Or to make a duplicate of the dress she had worn? That pattern was of some interest to authorities, and I find it quite interesting also. What significance did the authorities think he held? The matter of the dress pattern was eventually dropped because Knowlton came to the conclusion it held no significance to the case. But could it have?
Rebello page 6:
m1 Sarah Anthony Morse, born September 19,1823, in Somerset, Massachusetts, and died March 26, 1863. She was the daughter of Anthony Morse and Rhoda or Rhody Morrison, both of Somerset, Massachusetts. Sarah, a seamstress and Andrew, a cabinet maker, were married on December 25,1845.
Rebello page 6:
m1 Sarah Anthony Morse, born September 19,1823, in Somerset, Massachusetts, and died March 26, 1863. She was the daughter of Anthony Morse and Rhoda or Rhody Morrison, both of Somerset, Massachusetts. Sarah, a seamstress and Andrew, a cabinet maker, were married on December 25,1845.
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche
- Allen
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Trial testimony of Rufus B. Hilliard page 1147:
Q. Did you call for a dress pattern?
A. No, sir, I did not.
Q. Did you hear anybody?
A. No, sir, not any of the times that I was there myself.
Q. Do you know that a dress pattern was got from that house?
A. I believe that Mr. Jennings and I think it was Mr. Harrington, I won't be sure but I think it was him that had a dress pattern brought from the house.
Q. And where it is now?
A. I don't know, sir.
Q. Was it returned or not?
A. I think it was in Mr. Jennings' custody; I don't know where it is.
Q. You haven't it?
A. No, sir.
Q. Was it examined by you at all?
A. No, sir, it was in the courtoom; I did not look at it.
MR ROBINSON (Addressing government counsel) Have you
page 1147
that?
MR KNOWLTON. We attached no significance to that in reference to this matter and dropped it.
MR ROBINSON. It had no significance.
Closing Argument for the Defendent by Hon. George D. Robinson page 1700:
Unless that, there was nothing more to be seen and nothing more to be found, and they had had all they wanted and had got her clothes and her stockings and even and unmade dress pattern and wanted to see if that had been made up into some sort of mantle to wrap her up in.
Q. Did you call for a dress pattern?
A. No, sir, I did not.
Q. Did you hear anybody?
A. No, sir, not any of the times that I was there myself.
Q. Do you know that a dress pattern was got from that house?
A. I believe that Mr. Jennings and I think it was Mr. Harrington, I won't be sure but I think it was him that had a dress pattern brought from the house.
Q. And where it is now?
A. I don't know, sir.
Q. Was it returned or not?
A. I think it was in Mr. Jennings' custody; I don't know where it is.
Q. You haven't it?
A. No, sir.
Q. Was it examined by you at all?
A. No, sir, it was in the courtoom; I did not look at it.
MR ROBINSON (Addressing government counsel) Have you
page 1147
that?
MR KNOWLTON. We attached no significance to that in reference to this matter and dropped it.
MR ROBINSON. It had no significance.
Closing Argument for the Defendent by Hon. George D. Robinson page 1700:
Unless that, there was nothing more to be seen and nothing more to be found, and they had had all they wanted and had got her clothes and her stockings and even and unmade dress pattern and wanted to see if that had been made up into some sort of mantle to wrap her up in.
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche
- Allen
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Inquest testimony of Lizzie Borden page 88-89:
Q. Did you buy a dress pattern in New Bedford?
A. A dress pattern?
Q.Yes.
A. I think I did.
Q. Where is it?
A. it is at home.
Q. Where?
A. Where at home?
Q. Please.
A. It is in a trunk.
Q. In your room?
A. No, sir; in the attic.
Q. Not made up?
A. O, no, sir.
Q. Where did you buy it?
A. I don't know the name of the store.
Q. On the principal street there?
A. I think it was on the street that Hutchinson's book store is on. I'm not positive.
Q. What kind of one was it, please?
A. It was a pink stripe and a white stripe, and a blue striped corded gingham.
Q. Did you buy a dress pattern in New Bedford?
A. A dress pattern?
Q.Yes.
A. I think I did.
Q. Where is it?
A. it is at home.
Q. Where?
A. Where at home?
Q. Please.
A. It is in a trunk.
Q. In your room?
A. No, sir; in the attic.
Q. Not made up?
A. O, no, sir.
Q. Where did you buy it?
A. I don't know the name of the store.
Q. On the principal street there?
A. I think it was on the street that Hutchinson's book store is on. I'm not positive.
Q. What kind of one was it, please?
A. It was a pink stripe and a white stripe, and a blue striped corded gingham.
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche
- Debbie
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This is a very interesting thought. I have never considered the idea of Lizzie making a duplicate dress.
I think I have never entertained this idea because I waver back and forth as to whether the murders were preplanned.
I, at times, think Lizzie killed Abby in a fit and the attack was so vicious. I can't however resolve in my mind she killed Andrew. A bit of a puzzle there.
Thank-you for giving me something new to ponder.
I am looking forward to hearing Kat's, Harry's and a few others opinion on this dress making question.
I think I have never entertained this idea because I waver back and forth as to whether the murders were preplanned.
I, at times, think Lizzie killed Abby in a fit and the attack was so vicious. I can't however resolve in my mind she killed Andrew. A bit of a puzzle there.
Thank-you for giving me something new to ponder.
I am looking forward to hearing Kat's, Harry's and a few others opinion on this dress making question.
- Harry
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Here's some tidbits from the Boston Globe of Sept. 4, 1892 after the conclusion of the Preliminary hearing:
"... The only other point that has been given to the public today is the much talked of "dress pattern" due the day after the Borden murders. City Marshal Hilliard put two New Bedford officers at work in that city with orders to trace Lizzie Borden's actions during the two weeks previous. They found that she had purchased a dress pattern of cheap material in a big dry goods house in that city and it was to
This Dress Pattern
that reference was made at the trial. Some importance was attached to the matter at the time of the discovery of the purchase. The police failed to find the dress pattern or any traces of it in their search of the Borden house. They made a demand on the members of the family to produce the piece of goods or the made up dress. If they could not do this the police wanted to know what had become of it. The family refused to move in the matter and the police at New Bedford searched the store to get a sample of the goods bought by Lizzie. The last day of the trial the defence surrendered the piece of dress goods which Lizzie had purchased and it was still intact. The question has arisen in the minds of some people, who believe as the prosecution does, whether or not it was possible for the friends of the prisoner to have duplicated the dress pattern and surrendered the last purchase instead of the first and that the first one might have been made up and worn by Lizzie at the time of the murder and afterwards destroyed or put out of the way. ..."
"... The only other point that has been given to the public today is the much talked of "dress pattern" due the day after the Borden murders. City Marshal Hilliard put two New Bedford officers at work in that city with orders to trace Lizzie Borden's actions during the two weeks previous. They found that she had purchased a dress pattern of cheap material in a big dry goods house in that city and it was to
This Dress Pattern
that reference was made at the trial. Some importance was attached to the matter at the time of the discovery of the purchase. The police failed to find the dress pattern or any traces of it in their search of the Borden house. They made a demand on the members of the family to produce the piece of goods or the made up dress. If they could not do this the police wanted to know what had become of it. The family refused to move in the matter and the police at New Bedford searched the store to get a sample of the goods bought by Lizzie. The last day of the trial the defence surrendered the piece of dress goods which Lizzie had purchased and it was still intact. The question has arisen in the minds of some people, who believe as the prosecution does, whether or not it was possible for the friends of the prisoner to have duplicated the dress pattern and surrendered the last purchase instead of the first and that the first one might have been made up and worn by Lizzie at the time of the murder and afterwards destroyed or put out of the way. ..."
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What a great post, Allen! And thanks for clearing up the bit about the pattern, Harry.
If Lizzie purchased it with the thought of ultimately disposing of it, then that shows how far premeditated the murders were, and further opens up the possibility of co-conspirators.
(I wonder: Could Lizzie have gotten cold feet regarding the hatchet, and tried to secure the poison instead? Then been "forced" to return to her original plan?)
If Lizzie purchased it with the thought of ultimately disposing of it, then that shows how far premeditated the murders were, and further opens up the possibility of co-conspirators.
(I wonder: Could Lizzie have gotten cold feet regarding the hatchet, and tried to secure the poison instead? Then been "forced" to return to her original plan?)
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Joanne, I also had thought that a dress pattern was tissue paper and was surprised to learn it was material. No Police Officer Harrington am I.JoAnne @ Sat Aug 23, 2008 1:57 pm wrote:Harry,
I always learn something new from this forum. First, I thought the word "pattern" meant the tissue paper of the pieces one pins to the fabric before cutting the cloth. I know now that this refers to the design of the material. Very interesting. Do we know the color and design of the cloth?

Allen, posted a segment of Lizzie's inquest testimony above which included what Lizzie said she bought:
"Q. What kind of one was it, please?
A. It was a pink stripe and a white stripe, and a blue striped corded gingham."
Why didn't they bring the person she bought it off to testify whether it was the same item? Instead they just dropped the subject. Drat!
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Also-- just from remembering and not checking, if I'm wrong-- wasn't Lizzie's sojourn to obtain the pattern about the only "venturing out" Lizzie did, as recalled by her temp landlady? IOW: Lizzie had plenty of free time on her hands to stitch together a dress or two.
I believe the Commonwealth could have strengthened its case by focusing on the dress(es)-- that Lizzie burned one, and that she submitted one that did not match others' descriptions of what she was wearing that Fatal Fourth. And that Lizzie could have very well had a new dress (or two) for ready disposal.
They really dropped the ball by not insisting on the expedient turning over of that pattern, then checking on its provenance. It could have been nothing. But, then, Lizzie's inability to produce it-- or her producing a verified substitute-- could have meant everything.
After all, if the dress doesn't fit, you can't acquit.
I believe the Commonwealth could have strengthened its case by focusing on the dress(es)-- that Lizzie burned one, and that she submitted one that did not match others' descriptions of what she was wearing that Fatal Fourth. And that Lizzie could have very well had a new dress (or two) for ready disposal.
They really dropped the ball by not insisting on the expedient turning over of that pattern, then checking on its provenance. It could have been nothing. But, then, Lizzie's inability to produce it-- or her producing a verified substitute-- could have meant everything.
After all, if the dress doesn't fit, you can't acquit.
- twinsrwe
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Huh, I also thought the word pattern referred to tissue paper! I'm with JoAnne in that I always learn something new on this forum.Harry @ Sat Aug 23, 2008 12:54 pm wrote:Joanne, I also had thought that a dress pattern was tissue paper and was surprised to learn it was material. ...JoAnne @ Sat Aug 23, 2008 1:57 pm wrote:Harry,
I always learn something new from this forum. First, I thought the word "pattern" meant the tissue paper of the pieces one pins to the fabric before cutting the cloth. I know now that this refers to the design of the material. Very interesting. Do we know the color and design of the cloth?

In remembrance of my beloved son:
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“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
- twinsrwe
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Good question, Harry. It had no significance?Harry @ Sat Aug 23, 2008 12:54 pm wrote:...Why didn't they bring the person she bought it off to testify whether it was the same item? Instead they just dropped the subject. Drat!

Allen, this is turning out to be a very interesting topic!
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
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dress pattern
Isn't it amazing. When did "dress pattern" start to mean the paper used to cut the fabric to sew a dress? Am I correct thinking that Lizzie could have purchased enough fabric(dress pattern) to make 2 dresses. Then used one during the murders that would have been stained,the second used to substitue to throw off the police? She was a very "crafty" lady.
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Re: dress pattern
That I think is the key question about the dress pattern. How much did she purchase and was what she turned over to police that same amount? We simply don't know.Barbara @ Sat Aug 23, 2008 5:36 pm wrote:Isn't it amazing. When did "dress pattern" start to mean the paper used to cut the fabric to sew a dress? Am I correct thinking that Lizzie could have purchased enough fabric(dress pattern) to make 2 dresses. Then used one during the murders that would have been stained,the second used to substitue to throw off the police? She was a very "crafty" lady.
If there was nothing to the purchase then why the reluctance to turn it over? Knowlton had to order Jennings to produce it at the Preliminary hearing.
Lizzie said it was stored in a trunk in the attic. Like the paint stained dress, it was not discovered during the searches.
Given the time Lizzie was asked about it, on I believe the 11th, until it was produced on the 31st, there was more than sufficient time to obtain identical material. But not by Lizzie as she was arrested on the 11th.
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- kssunflower
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Re: dress pattern
And maybe she purchased this in New Bedford instead of FR because she was being secretive?Barbara @ Sat Aug 23, 2008 4:36 pm wrote:Am I correct thinking that Lizzie could have purchased enough fabric(dress pattern) to make 2 dresses. Then used one during the murders that would have been stained,the second used to substitue to throw off the police? She was a very "crafty" lady.
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My Mother and Grandmother used to make outfits and they had many of the packets of "patterns" that I've always considered as what is referred to as a pattern. They had the papers folded up inside that you used to cut your sleeves and necklines and such. I actually never heard of material referred to as a pattern, so I guess this is news to me as well.
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Re: dress pattern
Barbara, Grace is right, the words "dress pattern" has always referred to the thin tissue paper within a dress pattern packet. My grandmother, mother, sister and I always made our dresses when I was growing up - store bought dresses were unheard of. Simplicity, Butterick, and McCall's dress patterns have been around for as long as I can remember.Barbara @ Sat Aug 23, 2008 3:36 pm wrote:Isn't it amazing. When did "dress pattern" start to mean the paper used to cut the fabric to sew a dress? ...
Check out the origin of patterns via this link: http://wesclark.com/jw/buttrick.html
So, when did "dress pattern" start to mean the pattern of the material?
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
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I agree, Harry.Harry @ Sat Aug 23, 2008 4:13 pm wrote:That I think is the key question about the dress pattern. How much did she purchase and was what she turned over to police that same amount? ...
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
- twinsrwe
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I have always wondered how in the world the paint stained dress was missed during the searches.Harry @ Sat Aug 23, 2008 4:13 pm wrote:Lizzie said it was stored in a trunk in the attic. Like the paint stained dress, it was not discovered during the searches. ...
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
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dress pattern
Twinsrwe, I have used "patterns' bought and hand-made for many years. Yet Harry and others have used the turn to mean the fabric the clothing was made from as the dress"pattern". I guess at one point in time the two were interchangeable,they may have sewn from measurements ,not paper shapes to trace.
- Harry
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Barbara, you could put what I know about dress patterns on the head of a pin and have room left over.
We have discussed the subject in the past and I searched in the archives to find the thread.
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Archi ... lizzie.htm
I call attention to message #8. Edisto, had a substantial knowledge of the clothing of that era and I place a lot of respect on what she had to say.
It was Lizzie herself who described it as being Gingham. And I have no idea what Gingham is.
We have discussed the subject in the past and I searched in the archives to find the thread.
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Archi ... lizzie.htm
I call attention to message #8. Edisto, had a substantial knowledge of the clothing of that era and I place a lot of respect on what she had to say.
It was Lizzie herself who described it as being Gingham. And I have no idea what Gingham is.

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I'm not a textiles historian, but it sounds as if there were two sets of material, off the same pattern (one a blue gingham, one a pink-and-white stripe). The gingham sounds as if it would have resembled the dress Lizzie burned in front of Emma and Alice Russell. (So there wouldn't have been a striking difference in the clothing she wore the a.m. of the Fatal Fourth, to anyone [Bridget, in particular] who saw her before and after, if she came downstairs in the gingham, bloodied it, burned it, then donned the Bedford cord.)
I speculate that she burned the dress in which she murdered Abby on the a.m. of the Fatal Fourth, before she burned her Father's parcel. This could have been the gingham (???)
I speculate that she was wearing her Father's topcoat OVER the Bedford cord (burned in front of Emma and Alice Russell). She may have taken this down to the laundry press in the cellar, the night of the Fatal Fourth, or simply left it hanging, innocuously, among her wardrobe.
Anyway, with the sleeves rolled up under the coat, with the skirt hiked up (possibly pinned), it could have made it through Andrew's murder unscathed.
However, Lizzie may have feared that there were tiny splotches of blood on it, perhaps in the dark-blue-diamond part of the pattern Mrs. Churchill recalls. Perhaps Lizzie even discovered some pinpricks of blood on the garment, upon closer examination.
Just to be on the safe side, she burned the garment, as it could have borne minute traces of her Father's blood.
Anyway-- I don't believe Lizzie left a massively bloodied dress anywhere in the house, for the police or anyone else to discover, and "to hang her on." I think she burned one dress that a.m. The gingham?
I speculate that she burned the dress in which she murdered Abby on the a.m. of the Fatal Fourth, before she burned her Father's parcel. This could have been the gingham (???)
I speculate that she was wearing her Father's topcoat OVER the Bedford cord (burned in front of Emma and Alice Russell). She may have taken this down to the laundry press in the cellar, the night of the Fatal Fourth, or simply left it hanging, innocuously, among her wardrobe.
Anyway, with the sleeves rolled up under the coat, with the skirt hiked up (possibly pinned), it could have made it through Andrew's murder unscathed.
However, Lizzie may have feared that there were tiny splotches of blood on it, perhaps in the dark-blue-diamond part of the pattern Mrs. Churchill recalls. Perhaps Lizzie even discovered some pinpricks of blood on the garment, upon closer examination.
Just to be on the safe side, she burned the garment, as it could have borne minute traces of her Father's blood.
Anyway-- I don't believe Lizzie left a massively bloodied dress anywhere in the house, for the police or anyone else to discover, and "to hang her on." I think she burned one dress that a.m. The gingham?
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I have checked some of my textile text books and several countries claim gingham as theirs. Today we know gingham check as a cotton or cotton blend, light- medium weight summer fabric- red and white, black and white, small check. Originally though it was meant to be printed up in stripes. Gingham arrived in England in the 1600s with blue and white in the stripe pattern being the favorite combinations. Even plaid gingham, and eventually checked gingham became popular. It is easy to clean, absorbant when 100% cotton and was and is used for household linens, pajamas, children's clothing, curtains, etc.
Gingham has no right or wrong side- it looks the same on both and has no luster. I remember reading about Victorian ladies
"turning" their dresses when the outside got faded from washing and sunshine and using the other side which was fresh -looking.
The word is a modification of Malay genggang which means striped cloth.
Date of earliest example : 1615
Ebenezer Butterick invented and patented the first tissue paper dress pattern in 1863. I take the patterns mentioned in reference to Lizzie as cut out, ready to sew up cheap, simple summer dresses. We know Lizzie had her dresses made up- she did not do her own sewing. There are several references to this. We also wondered if Emma were visiting Miss Brownell (who was a seamstress) to get some dresses sewn up or was Miss Brownell a friend and not Emma's seamstress. I tend to think she was not.
Gingham has no right or wrong side- it looks the same on both and has no luster. I remember reading about Victorian ladies
"turning" their dresses when the outside got faded from washing and sunshine and using the other side which was fresh -looking.
The word is a modification of Malay genggang which means striped cloth.
Date of earliest example : 1615
Ebenezer Butterick invented and patented the first tissue paper dress pattern in 1863. I take the patterns mentioned in reference to Lizzie as cut out, ready to sew up cheap, simple summer dresses. We know Lizzie had her dresses made up- she did not do her own sewing. There are several references to this. We also wondered if Emma were visiting Miss Brownell (who was a seamstress) to get some dresses sewn up or was Miss Brownell a friend and not Emma's seamstress. I tend to think she was not.
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Interesting. So if Lizzie had gotten a little bit of blood on her gingham dress (of course not enough to soak through) she could have turned it inside out and hung it among her other dresses and the police could have overlooked it entirely. Since she wasn't an official suspect right away, the officers who searched the house wouldn't have scrutinized her wardrobe so closely at first.
I'm glad you pointed out the fact about patterns because I never would have thought to even consider a different meaning to the phrase "dress pattern".
Slightly off-topic, but is there a good index for the trial manuscripts? Or would that even be useful?
I'm glad you pointed out the fact about patterns because I never would have thought to even consider a different meaning to the phrase "dress pattern".
Slightly off-topic, but is there a good index for the trial manuscripts? Or would that even be useful?
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The general consensus was Lizzie wore a summer calico, light blue background with some sort of darker blue figure, sprig, diamond, cloverleaf, etc. on it. She changed into a pink and white striped wrapper after Abby was found and she went up to her room. Harrington's description of it was an eye-popper! I would LOVE to have met Harrington.
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- Shelley
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W/O checking, I believe she changed into a pink wrapper (a nice-looking houserobe). From the way Mrs. Churchill described Lizzie's dress-- it was a light-blue "calico," covered with a diamond-shaped pattern in a darker blue. (The dress that Lizzie was wearing when the stampede commenced.)
Going back to the subject of Lizzie sewing a dress: Wasn't she capable of doing something easy, as in stitching together a simple, pre-cut dress pattern?
IOW: If Lizzie intended to destroy clothing, her seamstress may well have been able to give an account of what was missing. Lizzie burns the dress in front of Emma and Alice Russell on the pretext of the alleged longstanding paint stain. If the seamstress had been brought in and wondered, say, what happened to Lizzie's la-la-la dress, it would have been too bad for Lizzie.
I recall the seamstress gave damaging testimony about Lizzie calling Abby "a mean old thing," or some such. She definitely seemed to be an "up your bidness," chatty type.
ANYWAY: It would have BEHOOVED Lizzie to throw together a cheap dress, if she planned to bloody, then burn it.
Going back to the subject of Lizzie sewing a dress: Wasn't she capable of doing something easy, as in stitching together a simple, pre-cut dress pattern?
IOW: If Lizzie intended to destroy clothing, her seamstress may well have been able to give an account of what was missing. Lizzie burns the dress in front of Emma and Alice Russell on the pretext of the alleged longstanding paint stain. If the seamstress had been brought in and wondered, say, what happened to Lizzie's la-la-la dress, it would have been too bad for Lizzie.
I recall the seamstress gave damaging testimony about Lizzie calling Abby "a mean old thing," or some such. She definitely seemed to be an "up your bidness," chatty type.
ANYWAY: It would have BEHOOVED Lizzie to throw together a cheap dress, if she planned to bloody, then burn it.
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- Kat
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I don't see where the inference comes in the Globe item that Harry posted, that the term *dress pattern* included a description of the material itself.
We did figure out long past, I think, that the *pattern* back then included the dress goods material. The ad Har showed pretty much says pattern and 8 yards of goods/material. (Thanks Har!)
Also, remember Lizzie's outfit she wore on Thursday was not a single dress, but a skirt and blouse= 2 pieces.
Yes Lizzie could have burned the Bedford cord and another outfit for all we know. One because of paint (proven thru testimony), the other due to blood (speculation if she *did it*).
It's very weird that whilst you all were contemplating this question about patterns, my friend came over from the coast with her sewing sister and I pulled out all my mother's old 1960's and 1970's patterns to show her! I had not touched those in 20 years!
Anyway, this testimony implies Lizzie did sew:
Trial
Emma
Q. Did you make any use of the guest chamber?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What for?
A. As a sewing room.
Q. Anything else?
A. Why, we sat there in making it a sewing room.
Q. Anything else beside that?
A. Except when someone came that we put there to sleep.
Page 1564/ i587
Q. Anything else?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you receive your friends there?
A. Oh, just as it happened. If it was someone we were very well acquainted with and we were in there sewing, we had them come up.
Q. And didn't you usually receive your friends there?
A. No, sir.
Q. Didn't you usually receive Miss Russell there?
A. Very often.
--Alice had not seen Mrs. Borden in a long time, so the we in sewing must be Lizzie.
Closing at trial, Robinson for defense, 1687:
. . . You will remember that Mrs. Raymond, the dressmaker, a lady to all appearances, who came and testified of their being together a few months before, four of them, during dress making, sitting in the guest chamber sewing, a regular dressmaking party. Phillip Harrington ought to have been there and had the whole style developed to him, to learn more than he knows, if it is possible to put anything into his head on the subject. There they are. Was that an angry family? Was that a murderous group?
Also, Mrs. Raymond
Trial page 1577
Q. What portion of that time, if any, have you also done dressmaking for Mrs. Borden and Miss Emma.
A. I worked for Mrs. Borden, not for Miss Emma---for Mrs. Borden during that time.
Q. Where did you do the work for Mrs. Borden?
A. In the same room that I did Miss Lizzie's.
Q. At or about the same time?
A. Yes, sir; at the same time.
Q. Would it be at the same time you were making the others?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Both of them in there at the same time working?
A. Yes, sir.
-----
Page 1578
Q. Did the girls assist in the making?
A. Yes, sir.
We did figure out long past, I think, that the *pattern* back then included the dress goods material. The ad Har showed pretty much says pattern and 8 yards of goods/material. (Thanks Har!)
Also, remember Lizzie's outfit she wore on Thursday was not a single dress, but a skirt and blouse= 2 pieces.
Yes Lizzie could have burned the Bedford cord and another outfit for all we know. One because of paint (proven thru testimony), the other due to blood (speculation if she *did it*).
It's very weird that whilst you all were contemplating this question about patterns, my friend came over from the coast with her sewing sister and I pulled out all my mother's old 1960's and 1970's patterns to show her! I had not touched those in 20 years!
Anyway, this testimony implies Lizzie did sew:
Trial
Emma
Q. Did you make any use of the guest chamber?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What for?
A. As a sewing room.
Q. Anything else?
A. Why, we sat there in making it a sewing room.
Q. Anything else beside that?
A. Except when someone came that we put there to sleep.
Page 1564/ i587
Q. Anything else?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you receive your friends there?
A. Oh, just as it happened. If it was someone we were very well acquainted with and we were in there sewing, we had them come up.
Q. And didn't you usually receive your friends there?
A. No, sir.
Q. Didn't you usually receive Miss Russell there?
A. Very often.
--Alice had not seen Mrs. Borden in a long time, so the we in sewing must be Lizzie.
Closing at trial, Robinson for defense, 1687:
. . . You will remember that Mrs. Raymond, the dressmaker, a lady to all appearances, who came and testified of their being together a few months before, four of them, during dress making, sitting in the guest chamber sewing, a regular dressmaking party. Phillip Harrington ought to have been there and had the whole style developed to him, to learn more than he knows, if it is possible to put anything into his head on the subject. There they are. Was that an angry family? Was that a murderous group?
Also, Mrs. Raymond
Trial page 1577
Q. What portion of that time, if any, have you also done dressmaking for Mrs. Borden and Miss Emma.
A. I worked for Mrs. Borden, not for Miss Emma---for Mrs. Borden during that time.
Q. Where did you do the work for Mrs. Borden?
A. In the same room that I did Miss Lizzie's.
Q. At or about the same time?
A. Yes, sir; at the same time.
Q. Would it be at the same time you were making the others?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Both of them in there at the same time working?
A. Yes, sir.
-----
Page 1578
Q. Did the girls assist in the making?
A. Yes, sir.
- Shelley
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Being able to sew was a skill nearly all Victorian women possessed. They made doll clothing as little girls, learned embroidery, cutting out simple patterns, hem-stitching and basic skills they would need for when they had a family of their own. Society women even had sewing circles and sewed for charity. Some women did fancy work to pass the time or for a hobby and at no time since has "busy work" been so prolific as the Victorian era. There was testimony that the Bedford cord was made up by the dressmaker. A dressmaker would often come seasonally, often making up cut-out patterns on her machine for the women of the house. My grandmother used to take me to such a woman in town for the summer clothing, back to school, etc.
We know Lizzie mended a sleeve on her dress on the day of the murders also. And there had been the gossip mentioned above about a conversation that Abby was 'A mean old thing and we don't talk about her" or words to that effect, which took place at a dressmakers (on 4th St.?). I am sure Lizzie COULD sew, Emma and Abby too. I don't know if she did major sewing , like making an entire dress, or if rather she bought the patterns to be "run up" by her hired seamstress. She seemed, by newspaper description to be an extremely neat and well turned out person. I would imagine she would want a professonal job of tailoring with attention to detail in finishing and accessories. I made quite a study of newspaper descriptions of all of Lizzie's clothing when I published my first collection of Lizzie paperdolls back in 1993 and was impressed by her fashion knowledge in her choices.
We know Lizzie mended a sleeve on her dress on the day of the murders also. And there had been the gossip mentioned above about a conversation that Abby was 'A mean old thing and we don't talk about her" or words to that effect, which took place at a dressmakers (on 4th St.?). I am sure Lizzie COULD sew, Emma and Abby too. I don't know if she did major sewing , like making an entire dress, or if rather she bought the patterns to be "run up" by her hired seamstress. She seemed, by newspaper description to be an extremely neat and well turned out person. I would imagine she would want a professonal job of tailoring with attention to detail in finishing and accessories. I made quite a study of newspaper descriptions of all of Lizzie's clothing when I published my first collection of Lizzie paperdolls back in 1993 and was impressed by her fashion knowledge in her choices.
- Kat
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- Susan
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I'm a bit behind on this thread, but, had a couple of questions that perhaps Shelley could answer? I'm familiar with checked gingham, though Lizzie refers to her unmade dress pattern as having stripes. Could gingham be striped and not checked? And also, I read that when a gingham has more than two colors to it, it is then referred to as a plaid gingham. Lizzie does mention 3 colors to her unmade dress, pink, white and blue. So, would it have been a plaid sort of gingham then?
“Sometimes when we are generous in small, barely detectable ways it can change someone else's life forever.”-Margaret Cho comedienne
- Shelley
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- twinsrwe
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Whatever, Barbara.Barbara @ Sun Aug 24, 2008 8:53 am wrote:Twinsrwe, I have used "patterns' bought and hand-made for many years. Yet Harry and others have used the turn to mean the fabric the clothing was made from as the dress"pattern". I guess at one point in time the two were interchangeable,they may have sewn from measurements ,not paper shapes to trace.
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
- Shelley
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Okay, I am willing to rephrase that statement causing controversy above..
We know that Lizzie had a seamstress, and had her dresses made up for her, and that there are a few references to that which I can find if need be. Lizzie could afford to have someone make up her dresses. In the source documents we have from 1892-1893, I can't find anything coming from Lizzie or a witness saying that Lizzie made up her own dresses. We know there was a machine in the guest room, and we know Lizzie mended a garment, she basted a tape on a sleeve on the morning of August 4th. Women of that era could all pretty much sew- and cook- and do most domestic things or had knowledge of domestic things even if they were very rich because they needed to know how to give orders and run their mansions.
I also have no doubt that Lizzie and probably Emma both could make up a dress if they had to do it, and maybe even hemmed a skirt or assisted the seamstress with finishing details. I have made many 1890's dresses and matching skirts and blouses and 8 yards is exactly the amount the patterns call for for both.
The issue on deck here, as I see it is that pattern she bought, with its 8 yards or so of fabric which had not yet been made up. It sounds like summer cloth and a summer color to me- pastel gingham. Gingham is most assuredly a summer fabric. This was August-maybe the intent was to either to have it made up soon for the 1892 summer season or store it away until the Spring for the following hot weather season. No mention was made that the unmade one looked like anything else in Lizzie's closet, so I don't see how she might have been planning to make duplicate dresses, secretly with the thought of having an identical clean one to change into while she burned another. I can see how the prosecution was keen to find any piece of cloth they thought might furnish a reason why no visible blood was seen on her person. In the end I believe the dress pattern was only that- a cheap sale pattern she got shopping on her trip. All the stores were having mad end of season sales. Since it was not made up, and there would have been no advantage in swathing herself with 8 yards of dress material to kill someone, I can see how that line of inquiry petered out. I also think if she had sewed up a brand new gingham summer dress herself, somebody would have known of this- Emma or Bridget at the least. If she had sewed up two identical dresses, it would have been a household sensation. It would have taken some clever maneuvering to have done either and not be heard or seen.
We know that Lizzie had a seamstress, and had her dresses made up for her, and that there are a few references to that which I can find if need be. Lizzie could afford to have someone make up her dresses. In the source documents we have from 1892-1893, I can't find anything coming from Lizzie or a witness saying that Lizzie made up her own dresses. We know there was a machine in the guest room, and we know Lizzie mended a garment, she basted a tape on a sleeve on the morning of August 4th. Women of that era could all pretty much sew- and cook- and do most domestic things or had knowledge of domestic things even if they were very rich because they needed to know how to give orders and run their mansions.
I also have no doubt that Lizzie and probably Emma both could make up a dress if they had to do it, and maybe even hemmed a skirt or assisted the seamstress with finishing details. I have made many 1890's dresses and matching skirts and blouses and 8 yards is exactly the amount the patterns call for for both.
The issue on deck here, as I see it is that pattern she bought, with its 8 yards or so of fabric which had not yet been made up. It sounds like summer cloth and a summer color to me- pastel gingham. Gingham is most assuredly a summer fabric. This was August-maybe the intent was to either to have it made up soon for the 1892 summer season or store it away until the Spring for the following hot weather season. No mention was made that the unmade one looked like anything else in Lizzie's closet, so I don't see how she might have been planning to make duplicate dresses, secretly with the thought of having an identical clean one to change into while she burned another. I can see how the prosecution was keen to find any piece of cloth they thought might furnish a reason why no visible blood was seen on her person. In the end I believe the dress pattern was only that- a cheap sale pattern she got shopping on her trip. All the stores were having mad end of season sales. Since it was not made up, and there would have been no advantage in swathing herself with 8 yards of dress material to kill someone, I can see how that line of inquiry petered out. I also think if she had sewed up a brand new gingham summer dress herself, somebody would have known of this- Emma or Bridget at the least. If she had sewed up two identical dresses, it would have been a household sensation. It would have taken some clever maneuvering to have done either and not be heard or seen.
- Kat
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I too have been confused as to what was meant by a *pattern.* I think they used to include the material with the tissue-paper-like clothing pattern that one cut out- ie: sleeve, ruffle, collar, etc.Barbara @ Sun Aug 24, 2008 8:53 am wrote:
Twinsrwe, I have used "patterns' bought and hand-made for many years. Yet Harry and others have used the turn to mean the fabric the clothing was made from as the dress"pattern". I guess at one point in time the two were interchangeable,they may have sewn from measurements ,not paper shapes to trace.
The ad Harry posted included the material. It's interesting to note the 8 yards, as Harry pointed out- and as Shelley explains as well.
In fact, I was wondering exactly that- how much 8 yards went towards making a dress or suit back in the day. That's also a lot of material to burn! I wonder how long that would take in the stove fire?
Thanks Shell for the further explanation!
- Kat
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- twinsrwe
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Thank you Shelley and Kat; I appreciate your help in clearing up the matter of what is meant by the word pattern. The thread and particularly the ad that Harry provided have been most helpful in clearing up the confusion. The third item listed in the ad, clearly shows that the material and tissue paper were sold together. Harry, thank you for posting this information.
Barbara, I am sorry if I offended you in any way - I certainly didn't mean to. Apparently, I wasn't the only one who was confused by the word pattern.
Barbara, I am sorry if I offended you in any way - I certainly didn't mean to. Apparently, I wasn't the only one who was confused by the word pattern.
In remembrance of my beloved son:
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
"Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 )
“God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )